Online courses--yea or 'nay'?

[Dr.iz-n]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

I had a question--I took the pre-med courses during undergrad, but I did bad in some of the first couple of classes I took. For the lab portions of chem and orgo, those were sepearate grades and I did okay in those. Even as I continued through college I did better in my upper level science courses.
I graduated, got an MPH in Epidemiology, now I am working as a Research Coordinator at Northwestern School of Med. The problem is with my schedule and unpredictable clinic appointments with patients, I can't really take the courses that I want. I need to retake the lecture portions of Gen Chem I, and the Orgo series. What do you all think if I took a course online? They have plenty of biochem courses and microbio courses online, and for midterms and finals, you have to take them in person at a local university. What do you all think? Would I have a chance to do this???? I don't want to get into the drama just yet of my situation (it's a long story), but I needed some feedback...

 

[Live4Life]

Honestly, if you take the courses from a reputable school that is in close proximity to where you live, then admissions committees will never find out they were online courses unless the school you take them at marks them as online classes on your transcript. I know that most schools prefer not to indicate that the courses are online courses because that indicates that they aren't equivalent to the in-class courses (which is bad news for accreditation).

Just ask the school how on-line or correspondence courses show up on transcripts before enrolling.

 

[Sundarban1]

Agreed, most medical schools will not accept online courses for pre med classes.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Honestly, if you take the courses from a reputable school that is in close proximity to where you live, then admissions committees will never find out they were online courses unless the school you take them at marks them as online classes on your transcript. I know that most schools prefer not to indicate that the courses are online courses because that indicates that they aren't equivalent to the in-class courses (which is bad news for accreditation).

Just ask the school how on-line or correspondence courses show up on transcripts before enrolling.

Took your advice--they don't distinguish between online courses or courses that are taken in-class on the transcript. Plus when I asked if the informaiton is equivalent to the information taught in the online course, it was identical (comparing both syllabi). I just need some options since more work schedule can be unpredictable throughout the week. I mean, I've already shown I can do hands-on experience since I did good in the lab sections, I just need to revamp the lecture portion...I don't know. I just think this might be a good option, especially for those who want to do anything possible to fulfill their dream.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Agreed, most medical schools will not accept online courses for pre med classes.

That's interesting, though I don't understand why they would put the MCAT online in 2007 and some continuing med education courses are online, or have web-based quizzes and content, yet they won't accept online courses for pre-med courses. That's backwards to me. I have all of my pre-med requirements completed, I just need to re-do the lecture portion of my Orgo I and II, and Gen Chem I. Everything else has been taken...I guess I'm just confused since the wave of the future is online everything, and I think AAMC and med schools recognize that if they are willing to put the MCAT as a computer-based test in 2007.

 

[sidewalkman]

You just need the lecture part, and the transcript won't mention that the class was online, so you should be OK IMO. If you needed the lab as well, it'd be a different story.

 

[Sundarban1]

Seems risky to me, even if there is no indication on the transcript. If you are admitted to medical school and at any time your transcripts come into question, you could be in for serious academic penalty. Medical schools are not so blind and I would think there are many people who have tried unsuccessfully to pass online courses off as real ones. If you live in California and your transcripts for chemistry I at JoeBlow college in Virginia, I think that would raise a few brows.

 

[relentless11]

That's interesting, though I don't understand why they would put the MCAT online in 2007 and some continuing med education courses are online, or have web-based quizzes and content, yet they won't accept online courses for pre-med courses. That's backwards to me. I have all of my pre-med requirements completed, I just need to re-do the lecture portion of my Orgo I and II, and Gen Chem I. Everything else has been taken...I guess I'm just confused since the wave of the future is online everything, and I think AAMC and med schools recognize that if they are willing to put the MCAT as a computer-based test in 2007.

MCAT is online for 2007? Or did you just mean its just computer based for 2007. Although I agree there appears to be a wave of new online-based things, the reason for a computer-based MCAT is to allow more testing, and faster results, not to mention it will be following in the footsteps of the GRE and DAT. Its merely a standardized test.

However, the fact remains that the stigma of online courses being "easier" than their in class counterpart remains. I took an online version of an english course back in the day, and it was definately easier than the real one, so I can understand why they think of it that way. Besides, the vast majority of applications take the in class lectures, so its only fair to compare it in that manner. Although the subject being taught is the same, the learning environment is totally different, so to some extent, these two varieties of classes may not be comparable.

 

[notdeadyet]

Seems risky to me, even if there is no indication on the transcript. If you are admitted to medical school and at any time your transcripts come into question, you could be in for serious academic penalty.

Very risky. I spoke to an admissions counsellor who looked over my transcript and spotted an online course, even though it didn't have any note that it was taken online (section number or somesuch?).

Your OChem and GenChem are required classes. Some medical schools do not accept online classes for required courses and most (I'm afraid) would frown on it. I'd take an elective or two online, but not the core four.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Seems risky to me, even if there is no indication on the transcript. If you are admitted to medical school and at any time your transcripts come into question, you could be in for serious academic penalty. Medical schools are not so blind and I would think there are many people who have tried unsuccessfully to pass online courses off as real ones. If you live in California and your transcripts for chemistry I at JoeBlow college in Virginia, I think that would raise a few brows.

Of course the med school should question a course that was taken online in New York, but you live in California. That would be crazy for them NOT to question that. I can even see if you took the classes from a school that is KNOWN to be a virtual university. That’s bad. However, if the school admitted you, it must have been something else in the application to make you stand out. MCAT, perhaps? Extracurricular activities and experience perhaps? Still, if someone has already completed the lecture portion of Gen Chem, got a less than stellar grade, but had a great lab grade (this is separate on my transcript), and then a few years later they took another Gen Chem class comparable in content, except it was online, with on-campus class midterms and finals, I’m not understanding how the med school could have you start in their program, then question your pre-requisites after you’ve started their program? I mean stranger things have happened, but still that would be wrong on the school’s part because you did the required courses for entrance, except one class was taken again, except on line. When you look at school profiles, it says nothing about the type or “method” of learning (distance learning, in-class, hybrid (online course content, but on-campus labs and testing)) for requirements. It says the number of semester hours required or year, etc. If the schools want to become that specific, then THEY need to specify this. To me, that seems like that could be grounds for an educational lawsuit because they did not state upfront the method of learning required, and this should be made public. If someone fulfilled those requirements, then that’s it. I shouldn’t have to call each and every school in the US to find out whether it is acceptable, or set up an admissions appointment to find out which learning method is acceptable. It should be stated explicitly. And if that’s the case then, then ALL schools should discourage any type of online learning for fear someone may think that they could possibly take some classes online to fulfill SOME of the requirements. Would we be having a different conversation if I said, “oh I need to fulfill the social science requirement for med school admission. Oh I think I’ll take this anthropology class online.” Would that be okay? If THAT’S okay, that’s stupid because that’s picking and choosing what’s acceptable for fulfilling requirements. It’s just in this case it’s a lecture portion of a science course, but then that’s a problem, but if I said I’m taking this anthro class online, that might be okay, or no one would think twice about it. Just some food for thought…

 

[microgin]

Of course the med school should question a course that was taken online in New York, but you live in California. That would be crazy for them NOT to question that. I can even see if you took the classes from a school that is KNOWN to be a virtual university. That’s bad. However, if the school admitted you, it must have been something else in the application to make you stand out. MCAT, perhaps? Extracurricular activities and experience perhaps? Still, if someone has already completed the lecture portion of Gen Chem, got a less than stellar grade, but had a great lab grade (this is separate on my transcript), and then a few years later they took another Gen Chem class comparable in content, except it was online, with on-campus class midterms and finals, I’m not understanding how the med school could have you start in their program, then question your pre-requisites after you’ve started their program? I mean stranger things have happened, but still that would be wrong on the school’s part because you did the required courses for entrance, except one class was taken again, except on line. When you look at school profiles, it says nothing about the type or “method” of learning (distance learning, in-class, hybrid (online course content, but on-campus labs and testing)) for requirements. It says the number of semester hours required or year, etc. If the schools want to become that specific, then THEY need to specify this. To me, that seems like that could be grounds for an educational lawsuit because they did not state upfront the method of learning required, and this should be made public. If someone fulfilled those requirements, then that’s it. I shouldn’t have to call each and every school in the US to find out whether it is acceptable, or set up an admissions appointment to find out which learning method is acceptable. It should be stated explicitly. And if that’s the case then, then ALL schools should discourage any type of online learning for fear someone may think that they could possibly take some classes online to fulfill SOME of the requirements. Would we be having a different conversation if I said, “oh I need to fulfill the social science requirement for med school admission. Oh I think I’ll take this anthropology class online.” Would that be okay? If THAT’S okay, that’s stupid because that’s picking and choosing what’s acceptable for fulfilling requirements. It’s just in this case it’s a lecture portion of a science course, but then that’s a problem, but if I said I’m taking this anthro class online, that might be okay, or no one would think twice about it. Just some food for thought…

Whoa... easy there Sparky with the "educational lawsuits". 🙄 The fact of the matter is as I'm sure you'll soon realize, is that you'll have to jump through a lot of hoops in this process of applying to med school and many things won't make sense or seem "fair". I can understand your position as I am in a similar one. I have fulfilled all of my pre-med requirements (actually have a BS in Biology and an MHS in Biomedical Sciences), work full-time, and am looking to retake the lecture portion of orgo I & II this coming fall/spring to make up for my less than stellar grades from almost 10 years ago. Like you, I did well in the labs, which are also kept separate on my transcript. Believe me, I understand how difficult it is to find undergrad classes in the evening that will actually accomodate my work schedule, however, I would not take the course online, despite the fact that it would make my life a hell of a lot easier. The reason why so many SDNers are objecting to the idea of taking (or retaking) any of the pre-reqs online is that these courses are one of the primary means (the other being the MCAT) of comparing applicant A to applicant B. No one is compared based upon how s/he did in Anthropology class as you suggest. You have to realize that as a non-traditional applicant that you will be competing against these 22-year-olds who have wanted to be doctors their entire lives, and who aced the four prereqs while enrolled full-time at 4-yr colleges. The stigma of online courses (whether it be true or not) still exists. You asked for opinions on the matter, and that's what you've gotten. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Sundarban1]

Again I would call the schools you are interested in and ask, rather than argue with me about administration. I didn't make the rules! All the schools I have contacted (I was thinking about online biochem) said they would NOT accept online classes.

Schools cannot answer every single admissions scenario on their website FAQ. Seeing as 99% of pre meds take their pre med classes in a classroom setting, so I would imagine it would not be listed explicitly. That is why we, as responsible students, take the initiative and ask these questions beforehand rather than finding out later when admissions calls you and tells you you have not met the requirements during the application cycle.

Yes, I could imagine schools could revoke an acceptance becuase technically you did not meet their admissions requirements. That is on you. I would not take the chance is my point. But, whatever. It's your life, not mine.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Again I would call the schools you are interested in and ask, rather than argue with me about administration. I didn't make the rules! All the schools I have contacted (I was thinking about online biochem) said they would NOT accept online classes.

Schools cannot answer every single admissions scenario on their website FAQ. Seeing as 99% of pre meds take their pre med classes in a classroom setting, so I would imagine it would not be listed explicitly. That is why we, as responsible students, take the initiative and ask these questions beforehand rather than finding out later when admissions calls you and tells you you have not met the requirements during the application cycle.

Yes, I could imagine schools could revoke an acceptance becuase technically you did not meet their admissions requirements. That is on you. I would not take the chance is my point. But, whatever. It's your life, not mine.

Wow. Who knew this would turn into such a spirited discussion. All I was saying was to look at everything from every angle. We know the admissions process comes with many ups and downs. This was just a new angle that I wanted to throw out there. And there is a lot of different opinions on it, which makes me think that this is a new question that will probably come up in the future as the admissions processes evolve, and technology becomes more sophistcated. No big deal...

 

[Olddodger]

Hi Dr. Iz,

Interesting discussion...

A couple of years ago, I decided to go back and try the DVM route. I needed to do some pre-recs and do a bit of damage control, but I worked an ever changing, irregular schedule that was %100 travel, which made any hope of normal classwork impossible.

Anyway, when I started poking into the subject, I found that I could forget taking any of the "hard sciences" on-line, EVEN from universities own departments. For instance, if I wanted to get into the U of Minn Vet School, I could NOT take on-line courses, EVEN from the University of Minnesota.

The folks at the University of Minnesota Center for Distance Learning told me the "we also find that unacceptable, as the lecture portion is IDENTICAL, but we have NO control over what the CVM will and won't take, and they won't even discuss it with us."

A far more interesting response, however, is what I got from other students/applicants (as you saw in this thread). When ever I mentioned what I was trying to do, most went absolutely spastic, and I got the speech about how there was only one path to enlightenment and if I deviated from the scripture, it was total heresy...and I should be burned at the stake for even mentioning it.

Personally, I think that if the material is the same, and you can master it on your own, as opposed to being force fed the material, it shows a higher degree of motivation, insight and dedication.

As far as MD and DVM admissions, well, I personally think they could care less about the material, but they want to see if you will knuckle under and play ball their way. JMHO, though.

Best,
Oldie

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Hi Dr. Iz,

Interesting discussion...

A couple of years ago, I decided to go back and try the DVM route. I needed to do some pre-recs and do a bit of damage control, but I worked an ever changing, irregular schedule that was %100 travel, which made any hope of normal classwork impossible.

Anyway, when I started poking into the subject, I found that I could forget taking any of the "hard sciences" on-line, EVEN from universities own departments. For instance, if I wanted to get into the U of Minn Vet School, I could NOT take on-line courses, EVEN from the University of Minnesota.

The folks at the University of Minnesota Center for Distance Learning told me the "we also find that unacceptable, as the lecture portion is IDENTICAL, but we have NO control over what the CVM will and won't take, and they won't even discuss it with us."

A far more interesting response, however, is what I got from other students/applicants (as you saw in this thread). When ever I mentioned what I was trying to do, most went absolutely spastic, and I got the speech about how there was only one path to enlightenment and if I deviated from the scripture, it was total heresy...and I should be burned at the stake for even mentioning it.

Personally, I think that if the material is the same, and you can master it on your own, as opposed to being force fed the material, it shows a higher degree of motivation, insight and dedication.

As far as MD and DVM admissions, well, I personally think they could care less about the material, but they want to see if you will knuckle under and play ball their way. JMHO, though.

Best,
Oldie

Whoa. Now that is interesting. I can see your perspective, and I guess that was the way I was taking it. Even if you have the motivation to do or fulfill your dream, even though it may seem impossible, sometimes you have to think of and exhaust ALL potential possibilities (i.e., even considering online courses). You don't want to think about "what if", or I should have done. You really have to think about things from every perspective. You're right. I think if you do deviate from the norm, that's considered "wrong". Afterall people are afraid of the unfamiliar, and taking a science course online is definitely a foreign concept to many. I think it is a shame though that you have to wonder what they will/won't take, as you described from your experience. Then again, who really knows from an admissions committee what they are looking for? I mean, time and time again, you have people with sparkling academic credentials (high GPA, high MCAT, etc), but may not be accepted. The same goes with the situation you described--U of Min wouldn't even tell you what they WILL or WON'T accept, which to me is pretty wack. I guess that's why I raised a fuss about schools being a bit more honest, a bit more open about some things, and if THAT'S the case they don't want people taking courses online, that should be stated upfront. It shouldn't be a med or vet school saying, "maybe we'll accept this course this time, and then maybe for the next person we won't.
Sorry to blabber on and on, but I think it just boils down to what I said earlier. This totally threw people off for me to even suggest something like that, but I think we need to think long and hard about the way things are changing around us all the time with all academic programs whether it's med school or something totally different. I don't think it's too far away before someone will stop and think there are hundreds of professionals out there who want to change their career and take prerequisites for a program, and online courses may be their only option. I just thought it'd be good to talk about this since we know everything is moving toward a computer-based, online society. I mean heck, Kaplan offers an online MCAT review course. It doesn't matter it's a review course, it matters that Kaplan saw a market to develop an online course for those who needed to study for the MCAT, but could not put it into their schedule, or was not close to a nearby center. I just think we need to really start looking at what's going on around us with the changing field of academia and the new methods of learning that are coming up around us.

 

[Olddodger]

Hiya Dr. Iz.

Actually, the response that I got wasn't too far out of the norm.

People in certain industries/professions can be VERY uppity (for lack of a better word)...not about where you are, but how you got there. Aviation, for instance, was very much that way. People tended to clique off into groups of people depending on how you "came up in the world" so to speak. If you weren't part of that particular group, then you didn't "pay your dues", to hell with you, you're a slacker, a line jumper or you "don't belong here"

People tend to get very defensive, for one reason or another, if you didn't jump the same hoops as they did. Academia especially is known for their love of pedigree, so really, this comes as no surprise.

I even tried going to a couple of local U's to see if I could set up a deal where I would hit the books on my own, make class when I could, do the labs on my own time, etc, and absolutely no one wanted to make that work. No one would step out of the box to help someone who was obviously motivated to make something, ANYTHING work that involved the sciences. Funny, as I going to be paying full retail out of my own pocket, too.

But boy, if you wanted to go into IT, Criminal Science, or some BS "executive management MBA" program, they were just tripping over themselves to get you involved, and by the way, here is some free money to boot. 😕

I agree about "the system". You have two basic types of people who are successful applicants...those who are genuinely talented, and those who are very good at working the system. The really sad thing, though, is sometimes working the system trumps having the talent.

I saw this with my nephew and his class of HS seniors. I'm sitting there one day BSing with them, and they are prattling on about all the crap that they have to do to get into a "good school", such as extra curricular activities. I'd say about 9 out of 10 of those kids could have CARED LESS about what they were doing, but only that they got credit for doing it. To them, it was simply a game to be played.

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter. I tried for two years to put something together so I could go to school and keep working. Finally, I wound up taking a personal leave from work to go back to school full time. I was fortunate to be able to do so. But in the end, they won.

Best,
Oldie

 

[stockmanjr]

Very risky. I spoke to an admissions counsellor who looked over my transcript and spotted an online course, even though it didn't have any note that it was taken online (section number or somesuch?).

Your OChem and GenChem are required classes. Some medical schools do not accept online classes for required courses and most (I'm afraid) would frown on it. I'd take an elective or two online, but not the core four.

How did they figure that out? My school had strange section numbers for night classes what just happend to be what the online classes we're coded under. I'm guessing the adcom was very familar with your school or was it a school that is known for online courses (i.e penn state?)

 

[marinak]

What about taking non-core science classes online? I've taken all of the medical pre-reqs but am interested in taking more classes after graduation this May to boost up my BPCM. So, what about taking something like physiology(w/out lab), biochemistry, genetics, etc. online? Do medical schools accept any online courses? I can understand why medical schools have a valid concern about the academic quality of classroom vs. online courses and the need to be able to compare everyone from the same base especially for the basic prereqs, i guess, but it doesn't hurt to explore all options to make your goals work if the online course is from a reputable institution.

 

[sunnyjohn]

I have the same question. I have to take genetics for application but I'm moving and won't be near any colleges so it will have to be online. Anyone have any ideas? I've looks on UC Berkley's site (right now they aren't offering it) and OSU (oregon state - they don't have this summer when I need it). Anyone else have any ideas?

BYU?

http://ce.byu.edu/is/site/index.cfm