Online Programs- Pros & Cons

[psychmama]

couple of words -
United Kingdom - Best Universities in the world
Open University - Distance learning courses in the UK
Open University - some of the most highly regarded degrees in the UK

this included the phd in clin psych, why? becuase any employer knows that anyone who has slogged their guts out getting a degree while working and doing it from home with minimal support will more times than not be way better then a B&M phd.

You know, I'm ambivalent about the online doctoral programs in clinical psychology. On the one hand, I'm inclined to agree that it takes a lot of discipline and determination to obtain a degree online while juggling all of the other aspects of your life. As someone who went back to get my Psyd in my 40's with three kids, I can relate. Also, my sister in law obtained her MBA online and worked her a - s off! I give her so much credit and know that she is just a qualified as many other MBAs out there.

On the other hand, clinical psychology is a bit different in that it requires a certain degree of in-person interaction that some other disciplines do not. I think this is why the only APA accredited online program so far is Fielding. In fact, Fielding does not call itself online or even "distance learning". They say they follow a "distributed learning" model, which is just a fancy way of saying that they combine distance learning components with in-person regional coursework and practicum experiences. I actually looked into Fielding and considered it. It's not an easy program at all -- in some respects it looked harder than my B&M program at a state university. If I had not been able to get into my current program, I might have given Fielding a shot.

One word about expense. I'm not sure there's a correlation between how good a program is and how much it costs. In the U.S. at least, the traditional PhD model has allowed one to get a cheap education in exchange for having these students do research and teach. That's great, but why is this better in terms of preparing one to be a professional psychologist? I used to be a lawyer, and law schools are hideously expensive and no one accuses them of being sub-par. True, it's a different model of education, but so what? Yes, if you go to a funded PhD program you have a great advantage in that your debt load is lighter. This is definitely something to consider, especially because psychologists (unlike lawyers) typically do not make the big bucks. But this is a problem for the individual student/professional -- this logic does not affect whether that person adds value to the field of clinical psychology.

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[thewesternsky]

couple of words -
United Kingdom - Best Universities in the world
Open University - Distance learning courses in the UK
Open University - some of the most highly regarded degrees in the UK

this included the phd in clin psych, why? becuase any employer knows that anyone who has slogged their guts out getting a degree while working and doing it from home with minimal support will more times than not be way better then a B&M phd.

I'm a little confused... Browsing the website, Open University doesn't seem to have a doctoral degree in clinical psych-- I'm seeing only course-based Master's programs in psychology. Am I maybe looking in the wrong place?

 

[JockNerd]

couple of words -
United Kingdom - Best Universities in the world
Open University - Distance learning courses in the UK
Open University - some of the most highly regarded degrees in the UK

this included the phd in clin psych, why? becuase any employer knows that anyone who has slogged their guts out getting a degree while working and doing it from home with minimal support will more times than not be way better then a B&M phd.

http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/psychology/index.htm#product-diplomas

I don't see a phd in clinical psych there, unless I'm missing something.

BETTER than a Brick & Mortar? Now we're being silly. It's better because the person worked while taking courses? That's a little like saying if I spent grad school hopping on one foot I'd get a better education than my non-hopping cohortmates.

 

[253698]

http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/psychology/index.htm#product-diplomas

I don't see a phd in clinical psych there, unless I'm missing something.

BETTER than a Brick & Mortar? Now we're being silly. It's better because the person worked while taking courses? That's a little like saying if I spent grad school hopping on one foot I'd get a better education than my non-hopping cohortmates.

yeah sorry ive got no idea what your all talking about, my doctor left his computer on while he was getting my medicine

 

[thewesternsky]

http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/psychology/index.htm#product-diplomas

I don't see a phd in clinical psych there, unless I'm missing something.

BETTER than a Brick & Mortar? Now we're being silly. It's better because the person worked while taking courses? That's a little like saying if I spent grad school hopping on one foot I'd get a better education than my non-hopping cohortmates.

Heh. I'd say that's an empirical question, JN. Luckily, my cohort come September consists of me and one other student, so we could have one person per condition... Want me to test it? I'll have data for you in approximately four years (bonus: by then I'll have really strong quads!).

 

[cara susanna]

yeah sorry ive got no idea what your all talking about, my doctor left his computer on while he was getting my medicine

Awesome, it's like a more creative version of "my brother logged into my account."

 

[Wildcat06]

(bonus: by then I'll have really strong quads!).

Correction: you'll have ONE very strong quad

 

[buddingpsyd]

I didn't mean to offend anyone I actually came here for help. Honestly, I came here for support that day and, I was thinking this would be the ideal forum for advice. Advice from a supportive and well respected community of scholars. As I read the threads to find such information almost everything regarding distance education was negative. I should have just asked for help first. Yes, I totally melted, I went postal and typed like a mad man.
As I continued to read I noticed that other individuals seeking advice about DL here were upset too. For a short moment I left the forum feeling like I had worked so hard towards my degree for nothing. It terrified me that that some of the views felt on this forum might just be representational of what is to come once I attempt to utilize the degree.
Anger is really fear, I had no "academic argument" just fear of yet another barrier. I did notice that there is a moderator here that isn't totally against DL and warns of some of the pitfalls. I apperciate what I have learned from her. Thank you and again my apologies.

 

[buddingpsyd]

I didn't mean to offend anyone I actually came here for help. Honestly, I came here for support that day and, I was thinking this would be the ideal forum for advice. Advice from a supportive and well respected community of scholars. As I read the threads to find such information almost everything regarding distance education was negative. I should have just asked for help first. Yes, I totally melted, I went postal and typed like a mad man.
As I continued to read I noticed that other individuals seeking advice about DL here were upset too. For a short moment I left the forum feeling like I had worked so hard towards my degree for nothing. It terrified me that that some of the views felt on this forum might just be representational of what is to come once I attempt to utilize the degree.
Anger is really fear, I had no "academic argument" just fear of yet another barrier. I did notice that there is a moderator here that isn't totally against DL and warns of some of the pitfalls. I apperciate what I have learned from her. Thank you and again my apologies.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

I didn't mean to offend anyone I actually came here for help. Honestly, I came here for support that day and, I was thinking this would be the ideal forum for advice. Advice from a supportive and well respected community of scholars. As I read the threads to find such information almost everything regarding distance education was negative. I should have just asked for help first. Yes, I totally melted, I went postal and typed like a mad man.
As I continued to read I noticed that other individuals seeking advice about DL here were upset too. For a short moment I left the forum feeling like I had worked so hard towards my degree for nothing. It terrified me that that some of the views felt on this forum might just be representational of what is to come once I attempt to utilize the degree.
Anger is really fear, I had no "academic argument" just fear of yet another barrier. I did notice that there is a moderator here that isn't totally against DL and warns of some of the pitfalls. I apperciate what I have learned from her. Thank you and again my apologies.

Nontraditional programs may or may not be a good fit for you. The one I am attending has been a great fit for me. I am a student at Fielding, which is nontraditional. In past postings on this subject there has generally been vastly more heat than light and these online debates about the relative merit of one learning model versus another have been less than fruitful. I should point out to you that most of the objections people here post about nontraditional models are based on prejudices and inaccuracies.

My program at Fielding is not online. We received our APA accreditation prior to the invention of the internet. We received regional accreditation prior to the invention of the personal computer. Fielding is not really even distance learning either.Fielding students actually attend class and get one on one face to face time that equals what a student in a more traditional program get. In our program that time may be structured differently across the academic year, but we still get the same amount of "in the flesh" contact with faculty as one would experience in a traditional program. The fact that Fielding was able to develop a model in which students get equivalent amounts of face to face faculty contact was essential to our getting APA accreditation 20 years ago. In my opinion. you simply can't get good training unless you have a very significant amount of direct personal contact with faculty. This is essential for socialization into the profession at the doctoral level.

If you are looking for an accredited Ph.D. or Psy.D. in clinical psychology you should be aware that the COA of the APA has adopted some standards for nontraditional programs and you may see other programs becoming APA accredited in the future. However, don't berate yourself if you have taken a different path. Remember that the membership of this board is a very small nonrepresentative sample. Most of the graduates of my program go on to very successful careers, get licensed in their respective states and do good and productive things in the field. One (now sadly deceased) has even been associated with Harvard: http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/directory/researchers/anne-alonso. Carefully consider your choices.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Awesome, it's like a more creative version of "my brother logged into my account."

This is late, but I found this hilarious!

 

[JTyce]

First of all I would like to say that online degrees are not frowned upon. Do to some unfortunate circumstances I had to complete my baccalaureate degree online through University of Phoenix (started as brick and mortar and still is). After getting a better job without so much as an eye being batted, I got a MBA online through Colorado Technical. The result of that degree was a $30K raise within a year. I am now pursuing a psyD through University of the Rockies specializing in business psychology. My employer sees enough value in online degree programs that they are footing half the bill.

As for clinical psychology, there are not many available online. The Fielding online PhD cost $120K, but is APA certified. As to its quality, it would not be APA certified if it were not of high quality. However, I refuse to pay that much for a degree unless it is through a highly reputable school. There is no ration behind that, it is just my choice. If you want a psyD in clinical psychology you will have to attend a campus. As for APA certification, check with your state licensing board to determine if that is required. My research has shown that the majority do not require it. Many psyD programs are geared towards working professionals with an MA in psychology and the classes are scheduled accordingly. University of the Rockies is in Colorado Springs and has programs in place for pre-doctoral and post doctoral internship programs. It is fully qualified for licensing in the state of Colorado. It does not seem that clinical psychology online is very feasible. Even the Fielding program is not 100% online.

I hope this helps.

 

[rl4191]

I too am in search of the ultimate objective.... online / distance learning opportunity for a PhD in Forensic Psychology or Criminology. I know there is a school out there it is simply the ability to find it. I have recently been checking into Saybrook, Fielding, University of the Rockies, as well as Northcentral all of which are regionally and nationally accredited, one of which is APA accredited. Each of theses programs is primarily online, with on campus meetings throughout the year and then one on one faculty collaborations towards the end of the program (disertation phase). I too do not wish to spend 100,000 + for a Doctoral Degree, therefore Fielding and Saybrook are not looking too favorably at this time.

I have a question concerning University of the Rockies - I have yet to be able to obtain an aproximate cost of the program, as well as the actual admission procedures, what hoops does one have to jump through? I have requested print literature, yet only seem to receive phone calls and emails. I return the emails, not the calls - I do not wish to talk to a sales / admissions rep until I decide which school I wish to attend.

Has anyone heard of Northcentral University? I have heard good and bad things concerning Northcentral concerning the dissertaion phase, yet most of the responses were positive.

I am 37 years old, been married for 18.5 years, have two sons 15 and 16, teach 7th and 8th grade at a 5A middle school in a rural area of Texas, After 1 year and 4 months I am to finishing my Masters in Criminal Intelligence (I begin the Comprehensive Examination phase next month). I do not have time OR money to waste, therefore any and all help, advice, learning options are welcome.

 

[erg923]

I too am in search of the ultimate objective.... online / distance learning opportunity for a PhD in Forensic Psychology or Criminology. After 1 year and 4 months I am to finishing my Masters in Criminal Intelligence (I begin the Comprehensive Examination phase next month). I do not have time OR money to waste, therefore any and all help, advice, learning options are welcome.

These are 2 very different areas that result in very differnt careers. The ph.d in "forensic psychology" is really a clinical psych degree that has a heavy emphasis on forenisc issues, (risk assessments, treatment of sexual predators or violent offenders, competencey to stand trial, etc). Criminology, from my understanding, is the study of crime and crime patters, and deos not really deal with individual behavior very ofen, as psycholoigy does. And criminology is soley a research degree of course, meaning you wont be trained in testing, therapy, assessments, etc. For the former, general and specialized clinical trianing is required, therefore, you will have to spend a considerable amount of time not only doing research, but also engaging in clinical practica. You would also have to relocate for the intership, as most of us do in clinical psych. Im afraid a ph.d in psych is just not ammedable to online trianing and you will be hard pressed to find anyone here who supports this mode for doctoral training. If you dont feel that you can "waste time," then maybe you shouldnt pursue the degree in the first place?

 

[edieb]

I just completed an APA-accredited internship at a medical school and one of the fellow interns was a Fielding student. However, she was one of the few in her class who matched to an APA site. If you gauge how respected a program is by its APA match rate, you may want to look at APPIC's stats and see Fielding's match rate yourself.

 

[JTyce]

Before dishing out advice about getting a psychology doctorate online, perhaps you should do some research. Anyone with a career outside of academia knows that you learn the bulk of your skills on the job. School is were you get the general idea. Anything that you don't use you quickly loose. Any sort of psychology degree that is not clinical would be fine to get online. In fact, I would hire a successful online graduate much faster than a brick and mortar student because I know that I will not have to hold their hand. I have hired punk kids out of top notch schools who couldn't wipe their own nose. I'll take a 37 year old with an online degree over that punk any day. Getting a degree online requires a lot of discipline and determination. No one holds your hand or give you a degree for nothing. As a 37 year old like myself, I suspect that you have learned that the world is not black and white. Get your doctorate online and do not worry about the ignorance and arrogance of those who snub their nose at it. I was worried about that myself initially, but quickly learned that anyone worth working for is intelligent enough to know that an accredited degree is worthy online or off. Just because some kid went to U.T. and managed to graduate, does not mean that they are worth the paper that their degree is printed on. I have found that employers are much more impressed by the fact that a person with a full-time job and three kids managed to acquire a degree than they are about where you went to school. I have obtained two degrees online and have benefited heavily. I manage 10 people and earn a six figure salary. Most clinical psychologist don't earn any money anyway, so don't worry about clinical unless your heart is really in it. I am currently attending University of the Rockies. I have decided to get out of management and go clinical. I will be relocating to Colorado Springs in order to do so (clinical is not offered online). I do agree with the other guy in that I would not want to acquire a clinical degree online. With all of the intern time, I don't see how it would be possible anyway. Good luck and keep your head up rl4191.

 

[JTyce]

The cost for the psyD online is $60K.

 

[erg923]

JTyce;8680371]Get your doctorate online and do not worry about the ignorance and arrogance of those who snub their nose at it.

I find this postion to be extraordinarily naive and out of touch with the academic world. The academic world is NOT the mainstream working world. Its an insulated club that is slow to adopt change. And, yes, the academic world is kinda snobby about this sort of thing (online education), but since this is the world you will most likely be working in with a degree in psychology or criminlogy (or at least working with a bunch of academics), I would suggest getting used to it. So basically, my argument is just the opposite of yours. You do have to worry about how your degree and training will be viewed by your peers and your potential employers. They are the ones doing the hiring and decision making....so to tell someone to dismiss these peoples perceptions is ludicrous. I am unsure about why you think that you would need to "hold the hand" of someone with a doctorate degree. No one has held my hand in my ph.d program thus far, and trust me this is the norm. And of xcourse i would argue that getting a more traditional doctorate take more determination and maturity, because the entracne requirements are much more strict. Restriction of those who you let in the fild ensures the hightest quality product. Similarly, opening up to more people increases the odds of getting inferior product.

That fact is, it really doesn't matter much what you think of the degree. What matters is what someone else thinks of it, namley, the ones that will be hiring you! You can think they are ignorant or snobby all you want, but this is the way the world is, especially the academic world. So, yes, you need to be cognizant of how you are percieved in the eyes of others in this profession.

Before dishing out advice about getting a psychology doctorate online, perhaps you should do some research. Anyone with a career outside of academia knows that you learn the bulk of your skills on the job. School is were you get the general idea. Anything that you don't use you quickly loose.

As for this statement, I view this as very much an undergrads framework/mentality about education. This mentality does not really apply to what one is trying to accompish with a doctorate. Nor does it transfer very well to the socratic learning model that guides doctoral education. Higher order conceptulalization and thinking skills, the ablity to consume and produce quality empirical research, as well as the development of a scientific attitude/mindset is what its all about at this level. These are activities that you are not expected to "lose." I would suggest reading Richard Mcfall's manfiesto for a scientific clinical psychology where he reiterates that doctoral education in psychology (and in general) is NOT a suppose to be a trade school where one has to memorize a job or skill set that they then attmept to apply it "on the job." The doctoral degree in psychology is a set of higher order knowledge and critical thinking skills that require understanding and dismantling the theory and elements behind them before you should be practicing any of them.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Anyone with a career outside of academia knows that you learn the bulk of your skills on the job. School is were you get the general idea. Anything that you don't use you quickly loose.

One of the most valuable things a person learns in graduate school is how to use critical thinking skills. The classroom work is meant to not only provide a solid foundational knowledge of psychology, but also to provide the critical thinking skills and space to really work with that knowledge. The "real world" is where you apply much of the theory that you learned, but unless you have worked with the information at a deep level, the application of the theories and facts will be mostly superficial. One of the biggest differences between Masters and Doctoral training is the depth in which we (doctoral students) learn the information. Our future supervision and administrative duties require that we can not only learn from a textbook, but synthesize and apply the knowledge in a novel situation.

Any sort of psychology degree that is not clinical would be fine to get online.

I think many topic areas can be covered adequately online, though there are some topic areas that the online environment cannot approximate to the level needed to teach/learn it effectively.

Getting a degree online requires a lot of discipline and determination. No one holds your hand or give you a degree for nothing.

As does attending classes in a traditional setting. I don't think people are implying that those traits are absent from an online environment, but that the material needed to competently practice within the field of psychology cannot be adequately taught in an online environment.

Most clinical psychologist don't earn any money anyway, so don't worry about clinical unless your heart is really in it.

Some can earn a lot, most earn a decent amount, and some struggle. I know I sacraficed a lot for my degree, but in the long run it will be worth it. If not, I'll go back to my old career, make great money, and retire at 55 either way.

With all of the intern time, I don't see how it would be possible anyway. Good luck and keep your head up rl4191.

In my opinion, the amount of time needed to really learn everything is such it really can't be done without complete immersion. The time requirements often eliminate many very bright people, but doctoral training was never designed for everyone.

As for internship....that is usually much more manageable than grad school. I have a life for the first time in almost 6 years!

 

[Ollie123]

I still don't understand how this works. What lab does the online student work in? Where are they conducting their experiments? Who is providing oversight there? If one is able to work a full-time job in addition to going to grad school, how can they possibly be learning as much? We're all bound by time, and even if I worked 100 hours a week I don't feel like I would be able to learn all that I should be learning.

Some classes (esp. clinical) cannot really be offered online due to the nature of what they involve. Of the classes that have the potential to be taught online, some would prove more challenging than others.

However, all of this seems irrelevant, because the classroom is only a TINY portion of what graduate training consists of at a typical school. You mention on-the-job training...well that's what grad school is. Classes are supplements to that, they are not the primary concern in graduate school, nor should they be. I agree that a substantial portion of coursework could probably be offered online. I don't really see a problem with it for some courses. It might make discussion a bit less convenient, but there are work-arounds for that.

If all grad school consisted of was coursework and a dissertation then yeah, it could probably be online. That's only a small part of grad school education though.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

We're all bound by time, and even if I worked 100 hours a week I don't feel like I would be able to learn all that I should be learning.

I definitely feel like this is the case. I'm on internship right now and I am learning a ton of new material, and it looks the same for the 2-year fellowships I'm looking at. That covers 8 years of full-time learning, and only then will I will licensed and "independant"....and there are still knowledge gaps if I decided to change my focus and go into another part of psychology (forensic, child, school, etc).

I think the curriculums at all psych programs could use more training, but they are already chock full of a plethora of things, which is why any dilution of this seems incongruent with the training needed to be a competent psychologist.

 

[policechief]

Actually there is one program. It is little known, but it does exist. It is fully accredited and does have a good reputation among the psy colleges. It is called the University of the Rockies, located in Colorado Springs, Colorado

 

[thewesternsky]

Actually there is one program. It is little known, but it does exist. It is fully accredited and does have a good reputation among the psy colleges. It is called the University of the Rockies, located in Colorado Springs, Colorado

The University of the Rockies does NOT offer an online PhD/PsyD program in Clinical Psychology. The PsyD program is only offered on-campus. In addition, the program is not "fully accredited". It is regionally accredited, but definitely not APA accredited. Graduation from an APA accredited program is necessary for licensure in several states.

Be careful, people.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would strongly advise anyone considering a non-traditional training path to do a lot of research about the training. A student who attends a middle of the road univeristy still has to navigate a number of hurdles, and this is before adding in any biases, training differences, and possible knowledge deficits.

As for dealing with any biases related to training, it can happen, whether you are in academia or not. I'm a Psy.D. at a university based program, and during my internship interviews I ran into two instances where I had to prove my training, since everyone else was a clinical Ph.D. I've even seen bias towards other Ph.Ds...(a counseling Ph.D. interviewing for a neuro fellowship where everyone else came from a clinical Ph.D. background), so whether people acknowledge it or not, it matters what people think about a degree and the related training. There are so many hurdles until licensure, it really behooves people to make sure they take the best path possible.

 

[BDR ASAP]

I live in Colorado springs, and I have some questions about University of the Rockies. I planned originally on getting my Clinical Doctorate there, but I like the non-clinical PsyD in Conflict Resolution and Mediation. I am finishing my MSC for LMFT, and I would like to know what I will be missing out on with a non-clinical PsyD. There is no internship, but still a dissertation with the program.

 

[erg923]

i have never heard of non-clinical Psy.d. Are these programs jsut making up their degrees now....

 

[aagman01]

Just an anecdote about a discussion that I was a part of last week -

In a conversation last week, my current prac supervisor told me about the hiring process she is going through at the clinic she directs. She told me she received two applications from applicants who received their degrees from an online school (Fielding in both cases) and one application from a student who received their degree from a professional school (Argosy). She shared that she dismissed without review the applications from Fielding. She also said that she only reviewed the Argosy application because she is hiring for what is a masters level counseling position - and stated that she considers a doctorate from Argosy to be the same as a masters from a regular university. Also, let me just mention that ultimately the Argosy applicant was not selected for the position (a MA/LPC was selected).

While I am only a doctoral student at this time, where you receive your degree from does matter if you actually hope to seek gainful employment (and thats forgetting about licensure, which can be even more daunting through such institutions). My advice to those considering online schools or even professional schools - do your homework!

Best of luck!

i have never heard of non-clinical Psy.d. Are these programs jsut making up their degrees now....

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is definitely up to the student to be aware of what barriers/hurdles they may encounter based on their training. Whether fair or not, there are biases out there, and if the person hiring shares those views, it may be harder for applicants from non-traditional programs.

 

[edieb]

After recently completing my degree and looking for a job, I have noted many people with degrees from professional schools often work at giant "doc in a box" operations that generally pay lower salaries than places that employ psychologists who complete degrees from more prestigious schools and apa-accredited internships.

For example, there is a large community mental health center that operates in the same city as the forest institute. There, the pay and benefits for psychologists is definitely on the lower end (after licensure you will make around $50K, have to wait 3 months for insurance, and accrue only 6 days/vacation for everyday worked, etc) and all psychologists there are from what many consider lower level schools (almost all psycholgists working there are from fielding, argosy and forest institute). I have noticed this type of employment situation at many different places, so I don't know if it's a general rule or just my general obsrvations. Anybody have any comment?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Anybody have any comment?

I've been down right depressed at seeing some of the therapy heavy advertisements going around, particularly the ones that have MHC/SW/Ph.D/Psy.D....all under one description. I have no interest in a therapy position, but just the fact that everyone is lumped together is concerning. Unfortunately many hiring businesses do not differentiate our multiple years of extra training, and there are enough people willing to take far less than they should.

I am currently looking at neuro/rehab fellowships, and the pay is somewhat better (mostly 40-50k, with a slight bump for year #2) but those are all very competitive and definitely not the "average" for post-doc positions. There are some VA positions that pay well, even for license elligible folks, but the competitiveness is much higher than previous years.

On the listservs there have been counseling post-docs listed for $23k-$30k, though I think those are for 9-10 month appointments. The scariest of all postings have been the, "I am looking for a supervisor/position", which involves free labor AND possibly paying for supervision.

Be warned...it is a tough market out there. I feel very fortunate to have the interviews I have, and I hope I can secure one of the positions because the alternative is down right scary. I come from a decent university-based Psy.D. program, have published and presented, and intern at a solid VA...and I STILL am far from guaranteed a solid post-doc placement. Don't get caught 4 or 5 years in, 100k+ in debt, and no where to go.

 

[whypsy]

Going back to OP,

There are no fully APA accredited online PhD/PsyD programs. For various reasons ethical and accreditation reasons, APA will not do it for a LONG time if ever.

With that said everyone should be familiar with this website. It's a list of APA accredited schools.

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/programs/index.aspx

Also, for insurance and various public advertisement and categorization purposes there are often no differences between master level vs doc level. In fact some insurance companies prefer master's level therapy because it is cheaper. Many non psych people do not comprehend the difference between PhD and MA level training. They know there is a difference, but not the degree.

Yeah I'm wonder what a non clinical PsyD involve...

 

[LovinPsych]

Hey there,
I'll try to keep my question simple.

I am working towards an MA in clinical psychology, I'm thinking of continuing to a PsyD or a PhD program but can't find many choice locally so I am looking ONLINE.

Does anyone out there know of a reputable psyd or phd online program that is:

1) APA approved
2) From a brick and mortar school , Not Capella, Walden, Argosy, Phoenix or any of these 100% online schools
3) It is ok if I had to travel in order to take exams etc.. But the bulk of work should be distant study
4) Preferably from one of the top 100 grad schools in psychology


Am I asking for too much?


Thanks

I am unsure right now but I can rest assure you Argosy isn't 100% online...just stating.

 

[mhdoc8]

I guess that I should not be too surprised at some of the antiquated views regarding online learning. The bottom line for anyone out there is if you want to be a clinical psychologist, shrinking heads, doing therapy, etc then you will not find an APA program in an online format. You must go to a brick and mortar campus. However if your interests lie elsewhere e.g. Criminal Justice, Industrial Organizational, Non Profit Mgmt then yes you will find regionally as well as nationally accredited programs. So the Psy.D of old was relagated to just a clinical setting but now things have changed. Not everyone that has a Doctorate in Psychology wants to be a therapist. The areas I mentioned above require a solid foundation in Psychology but not clinical practice.

I do agree with the person that stated these programs take a lot of discipline and intrinisic motivation. I lot of us Gen X'ers (and others) don't need the constant hand holding and encouragement of a brick and mortar. We just want to do the work. Besides we have jobs and would like to join the ranks of academia without the elitist attitude that is all but doomed. Look around. Major universities are moving towards 100% online programs for things like management i.e. Cornell University due to there efficacious grad rates.

Evolve People!!

Future University of the Rockies Psy.D Crminologist (with 2 brick and mortar degrees)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

However if your interests lie elsewhere e.g. Criminal Justice, Industrial Organizational, Non Profit Mgmt then yes you will find regionally as well as nationally accredited programs. So the Psy.D of old was relagated to just a clinical setting but now things have changed. Not everyone that has a Doctorate in Psychology wants to be a therapist. The areas I mentioned above require a solid foundation in Psychology but not clinical practice.

It is only 30 or so years old! I think the issue that people have with "non-clinical" Psy.Ds is that it defeats the purpose of the original Psy.D., which was established to address clinical practice needs. The Psy.D. in the non-clinical setting is akin to the Doctorate of Nurse Practitioners, which is a non-clinical degree....stemming from a clinical area.

I do agree with the person that stated these programs take a lot of discipline and intrinisic motivation. I lot of us Gen X'ers (and others) don't need the constant hand holding and encouragement of a brick and mortar. We just want to do the work.

Most people consider mentorship to be a cornerstone in their training. Being able to work under the guidance of others helps to not only inform our work, but it also builds our ability to function as a Junior Colleague, and eventually work towards become a colleague.

Wanting to do the work is important, but there is something to be said about doing the work without guidance. Most/All doctoral candidates realize that once they start their program that only a % of the training is actually about the classes, and the majority of the learning happens through mentorship, scholarly inquiry, and practicum/supervision. The information is far less useful in a bubble, it is akin to someone reading an anatomy book and expecting to be able to do a flawless disection. One of the major differences between MA/MS level training and doctoral level training is the great level of mentorship and guidance needed to really hone the craft of work.

Besides we have jobs and would like to join the ranks of academia without the elitist attitude that is all but doomed. Look around. Major universities are moving towards 100% online programs for things like management i.e. Cornell University due to there efficacious grad rates.

There has been the addition of online training at major universities, but the topic areas are quite different than psychology. Taking an English class online probably isn't a big deal, but it is vastly different than a psychology class about behavioral assessment. The reason why most large universities offer online classes is financial, as they can charge just as much per credit, and not have to worry about most of the facilities upkeep cost. A server is far easier to maintain than a building. I think online learning is great for people who need to take some general education requirements for their AA/BA/BS. It can work for some graduate degrees, but not for others. Can you imagine taking an M.S. in Chemistry online? That is a closer comparison to psychology than an English or Business class.

I admittedly have a bias against online learning, and I do not want to support the proliferiation because I believe it is damaging to my field. I don't teach online classes and I don't believe they are in our best interest as a profession to encourage students to pursue them. I'm worried about the perception of the field if a degree can be had online, when a main tennant of the field is interpersonal communication. I would not want to be on the stand of a court case and have to defend my training because a lawyer can twist and distort things much more benign than this.

There are many people who are not able to take traditional classes at a B&M institution, and I understand that frustration, but I don't believe the technology is there to come close to "equal" training, nor do I believe students will be adequately prepared to handle many of the real challenges that face a clinician without having intensive mentorship and hands on instruction. There is SO MUCH that is learned in the classroom that cannot be replicated in the online environment. It is unfair to offer a student the ability to take classes online, but not to prepare them for some of the limitations of the training.

My prior career was in technology, and I am quite familiar with the literature as well as the limits/advantages of online communication, and there are things that cannot yet be reproduced. I think online interactions are great in a pinch, but to use them as the basis of training is putting a lot of faith into a delivery method that is really quite new and unproven in our field. There has been some supportive data out there, though not enough to show equivilancy. Take an English class or Art Appreciation online, but students should be aware of the limitations (both based in reality and perception) because it can be a great deal of money to complete an online program.

 

[erg923]

Evolve People!!

Again, I think alot of us feel the above statement is exactly what a lack of focus on admissions standards and scientific rigor results in-Blindly accepting a premise/idea. That is, unquestioning acceptance of a training model in the face of no emprical data for its viability to produce equally capable clinical psychologists. What is even more frighting is that its not just blindly acccepted, but it also advocated that others think/believe the same thing, blindly and unquestioningly. What kind of science is that?

THIS (ie., A LACK OF DEEP THOUGHT AND APPARENT CAUSAL ATITTUDES TOWARDS EVIDENCE AND SCIENCE) IS WHY PEOPLE THINK DOCTORATES FROM ONLINE PROGRAMS ARE LESS THAN EQUAL.

 

[Schooled]

Mental health is a delicate thing. It's not something you can teach yourself with a book. It's not something one can deeply understand even if you memorize all the bold words and theories in a text book.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Hey there,
I'll try to keep my question simple.

I am working towards an MA in clinical psychology, I'm thinking of continuing to a PsyD or a PhD program but can't find many choice locally so I am looking ONLINE.

Does anyone out there know of a reputable psyd or phd online program that is:

1) APA approved
2) From a brick and mortar school , Not Capella, Walden, Argosy, Phoenix or any of these 100% online schools
3) It is ok if I had to travel in order to take exams etc.. But the bulk of work should be distant study
4) Preferably from one of the top 100 grad schools in psychology


Am I asking for too much?


Thanks

Fielding has a solid PhD program in Psychology with various focus area in forensic psychology, neuro-psychology, clinical psychology, among other areas. The degree program is APA accredited and has been for quite some time so it is doubtful they are in major danger of losing it.

Having said that keep in mind that there are many states that do not require that the PhD in psychology be from an APA accredited University. Here in Califonia, for example there is no such requirement. However the supervised clinical training which is mandatory prior to sitting for the licensure exam should be APA accredited. It is impossible to become an APA licensed clinical psychologist anywhere in the US without supervised training in accordance with the particular board requirements of each state, even if they are not required to be APA accredited. Here in CA there is a minimum requirement of 1500 hours per year for two years equaling 3000 hours of supervised training. In addition Fielding, Walden and Capella have residencey requirements throughout the year in addition to practica and various internships as well just to graduate. These are mandatory and require face to face training sessions, supervised practice, group discussions and application of psychology theory learned in the classroom and in the textbooks.

Of course not everyone who obtains a PhD in psychology desires to work in clinical psychology as several posters in this thread already noted, however, it is quite feasible and realistic to obtain such a PhD in clinical psychology, be well trained, competent, and ethical in applying clinical assessments, psychometric tests, clinical interviews, and so forth if you pursue the appropriate internships, practica and APA required supervised training. In addition here in CA one must take several cousres relating to cultural diversity, human sexuality and various important topics in psychology to even have a credile degree to sit for the exam.

Keep in mind many online Universities are in line with APA guidelines for educational quality and topics covered in the course work as well. I will mention Fielding is a little pricey, but their distriution model is of top quality. Also do not pay too much attention to the US and News report rankings as these are very subjective, not very scientific or empirically validated. I am not saying Harvard or Yale are terrible Universities, but there are more empirically validated measures out there and in terms of subjectivity you need to pick a University that suits your needs.

If you go to Fielding you have a lot of options in more states to practice and if you go to an APA accredited public University you may save money. If you did go to a Walden or a Capella, you could practice in many states and could potentially be a professor in an online University and some brick and mortar Universities as well.

What a Harvard or Yale may offer are more connections, but in recent years that has changed somewhat as other Universities become more competitive.

For more info see here:

http://www.und.edu/org/div17sas/Files/licensuretable.pdf

http://www.psychboard.ca.gov/faq.shtml


A state like Tennesse have more stringent requirements.

Personally I have not done any internships without some higher level accreditation. That is me, some people explore various other options like transpersonal psychology training for example.

I did my early undergrdaute education and training in traditional brick and mortar first then I continued advanced undergrdauate and master's education/training in online institutions. I do look for well respected training from licensed and experienced clinical psychologists and forensic psychologists. I also tutor undergraduate and graduate students from: online institutions, traditional universities and more placed with more blended models as well. I find that individual motivation, general intelligence, studying ability/time put in, and personal/professional goals are great indicators of academic success and ability to perform well in their respective onsite face to face supervised training.

I do think that blended university programs combining online ansychronous learning modules, with synchrnous online sessions and face to face training sessions works the best, however no online PhD program that is regionally accredited conducts all of the education/training online. They all require as I aforementioned face to face residencies, meetings with one's mentors as some point and if you want to graduate, internships. No, graduation alone does not guarantee ability to sit for licensure, however, no University provides that, APA accredited or not.

No, books alone will not make one a good clinical psychologist as also mentioned several times in this thread. I would hate to fly in a Cessna with someone who only used the MS flight simulator. The flight simulator still does not account for wind shear so well or take into account individual psychological responses to optical illusions, g forces and severe turbulence. How could someone know what it feels like to work with a serious violent criminal offender, for example from a textbool alone?

I also recommend if you are not yet getting psi chi to induct you There are many advantages to being a member of Psi Chi. These advantages extend to areas of research and scholarship, applying for some Universities and submitting a resume for potential employers and supervisors for training.

Early in my undergraduate I completed many honors classes and joined several psychology clubs and the future teacher's club run by licensed PhD psychology professors, in a traditonal University. If you look hard enough, similar programs exist in the online education environment as well. No amount of training or education makes one a proficient psychologist, but it is the individual's efforts that encourages the education and training to take root There are also certifications one may acquire relatively cheaply online like at FIT in say, behavior analysis as well:

http://cpla.fit.edu/psych/

Other programs exist well and as you attend online courses you should be interning at some acceptable community funded program, clinic or for profit organization smiled upon by the APA.


Note: some transpersonal psychology programs may be APA accredited now, but I am not completely sure.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Again, I think alot of us feel the above statement is exactly what a lack of focus on admissions standards and scientific rigor results in-Blindly accepting a premise/idea. That is, unquestioning acceptance of a training model in the face of no emprical data for its viability to produce equally capable clinical psychologists. What is even more frighting is that its not just blindly acccepted, but it also advocated that others think/believe the same thing, blindly and unquestioningly. What kind of science is that?

THIS (ie., A LACK OF DEEP THOUGHT AND APPARENT CAUSAL ATITTUDES TOWARDS EVIDENCE AND SCIENCE) IS WHY PEOPLE THINK DOCTORATES FROM ONLINE PROGRAMS ARE LESS THAN EQUAL.

I can certainly see your point and why you would make that statement. However, stringent admission standards do not guarantee an effective quality program and even if a University does have open admissions this does not mean that many of the students can get through the curciculm either. Take for example Nassau Community College located on Long Island.(as I used to live in that area) NCC is a very high quality college in the 6th richest county in the US, which is Nassau County. The college is completely open admissions, but there are still entrance exams reqired to assure that students are placed in the appropriate level of introductory or advanced courses. The college has very highly paid well respected professors and a top notch psychology program. Many students do not graduate from the school. They also have an excellent honors program where the bare minimum GPA must be a 3.5. Queens College does not have stringent admissions standards but they are a very high quality college known for extremely relevant and difficult courses. As a matter of fact, many people find the course work more difficult there than more esteemed Universities like in the Ivy League. I had a student taking an undergraduate Neuro-Psychology course, but the course included many Neuroscience topics as well and the textbook used was: Neuroscience: Exploring The Brain by Mark Bear, Barry Connors, and Michael Paradiso. The professor was top notch and the class exams/assignments were rigorous. I have also found similar results as some online institutions.

I understand your earlier points, however, in regards to training. NCC had many training opportunities as did Queens College. The same holds true of Walden University and Fielding University. Of course a student must seek out and evaluate training opportunities as that is their responsibility.

I have read quite a few of your posts prior to joining this blog and I am a new poster, but I do make my statements with respectm, with experience and all the available information.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Mental health is a delicate thing. It's not something you can teach yourself with a book. It's not something one can deeply understand even if you memorize all the bold words and theories in a text book.

Though related, theory and practice, practice does not neatly translate from theory.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Fielding is APA accredited, a little pricey but an excellent University if it suits your needs. Walden University is not APA accredited but it does meet APA guidelines and educational requirements in terms of courses offered and their content. In many states APA accreditation is not a requirement to become licensed. In some states even the supervised training does not need to be APA accredited either, but I would suggest using APA accredited internships for training hours. You can see a more thorough response to these kinds of questions from myself and others here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606991

My posts at the end of the thread address all of these issues and answer all of the major questions posed there and here in this thread.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Nontraditional programs may or may not be a good fit for you. The one I am attending has been a great fit for me. I am a student at Fielding, which is nontraditional. In past postings on this subject there has generally been vastly more heat than light and these online debates about the relative merit of one learning model versus another have been less than fruitful. I should point out to you that most of the objections people here post about nontraditional models are based on prejudices and inaccuracies.

My program at Fielding is not online. We received our APA accreditation prior to the invention of the internet. We received regional accreditation prior to the invention of the personal computer. Fielding is not really even distance learning either.Fielding students actually attend class and get one on one face to face time that equals what a student in a more traditional program get. In our program that time may be structured differently across the academic year, but we still get the same amount of "in the flesh" contact with faculty as one would experience in a traditional program. The fact that Fielding was able to develop a model in which students get equivalent amounts of face to face faculty contact was essential to our getting APA accreditation 20 years ago. In my opinion. you simply can't get good training unless you have a very significant amount of direct personal contact with faculty. This is essential for socialization into the profession at the doctoral level.

If you are looking for an accredited Ph.D. or Psy.D. in clinical psychology you should be aware that the COA of the APA has adopted some standards for nontraditional programs and you may see other programs becoming APA accredited in the future. However, don't berate yourself if you have taken a different path. Remember that the membership of this board is a very small nonrepresentative sample. Most of the graduates of my program go on to very successful careers, get licensed in their respective states and do good and productive things in the field. One (now sadly deceased) has even been associated with Harvard: http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/directory/researchers/anne-alonso. Carefully consider your choices.

Excellent points!

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Fielding is APA accredited, a little pricey but an excellent University if it suits your needs. Walden University is not APA accredited but it does meet APA guidelines and educational requirements in terms of courses offered and their content. In many states APA accreditation is not a requirement to become licensed. In some states even the supervised training does not need to be APA accredited either, but I would suggest using APA accredited internships for training hours. You can see a more thorough response to these kinds of questions from myself and others here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606991

My posts at the end of the thread address all of these issues and answer all of the major questions posed there and here in this thread.

Thanks for the positive statements about my program. Fielding has a rather significant cohort of doctoral re specialization students who have received Ph.D.'s in experimental or developmental or physiological psychology who want clinical training. The ones I have spoken to have indicated that Fielding is at least just as rigorous or more rigorous than their more traditional doctoral programs. I have enjoyed myself at Fielding very much. But I am at one of those "Oh my God I have sooo much work and no time to do it" stages. I am soo ready to be done with grad school. The whole 90 hour work week wears one thin when you are in your late 40's. I will probably be applying for the match this next go around. Like almost all Fielding students I am very geographically restricted but to maximize my chances I will have to find a way to get more flexibility in terms of geography. Fielding has traditionally had a rather low match rate due to selection bias. As a cohort we have traditionally been very geographically restricted in terms of internship applications.

Fielding *is* pricey to say the least. Now for me, the financial numbers actually worked out better than my being in a "funded" program because I am a mid-career, middle-aged professional in management. I would have had to taken a massive annual pay cut to work at a university on a grad student's stipend. Even with the tuition remission, the numbers just did not add up. Had I gone to a "funded" program I would have lost a huge amount of income across the years. Yet I must agree with posters like Jon Snow about the substantial merits of a funded program. A much younger person in their 20's would do far better in a funded program than a non-funded program. People should explore their options carefully

 

[PsychGraduate]

Thanks for the positive statements about my program. Fielding has a rather significant cohort of doctoral re specialization students who have received Ph.D.'s in experimental or developmental or physiological psychology who want clinical training. The ones I have spoken to have indicated that Fielding is at least just as rigorous or more rigorous than their more traditional doctoral programs. I have enjoyed myself at Fielding very much. But I am at one of those "Oh my God I have sooo much work and no time to do it" stages. I am soo ready to be done with grad school. The whole 90 hour work week wears one thin when you are in your late 40's. I will probably be applying for the match this next go around. Like almost all Fielding students I am very geographically restricted but to maximize my chances I will have to find a way to get more flexibility in terms of geography. Fielding has traditionally had a rather low match rate due to selection bias. As a cohort we have traditionally been very geographically restricted in terms of internship applications.

Fielding *is* pricey to say the least. Now for me, the financial numbers actually worked out better than my being in a "funded" program because I am a mid-career, middle-aged professional in management. I would have had to taken a massive annual pay cut to work at a university on a grad student's stipend. Even with the tuition remission, the numbers just did not add up. Had I gone to a "funded" program I would have lost a huge amount of income across the years. Yet I must agree with posters like Jon Snow about the substantial merits of a funded program. A much younger person in their 20's would do far better in a funded program than a non-funded program. People should explore their options carefully

I think Fielding is great, and you are welcome. I agree people should explore their options very carefully. I also know that there are many educational paths to becoming a clinical psychologist or other kind of psychologist/educator. I know what you mean about placement rates, but good internships with APA approval are always in short supply as it is. I do not think it is a bad idea to go 100% APA but there are many good training programs and internships that offer opportunities even if they are not all APA accredited. Of course I like the fact Fielding is APA accredited. What is not true is that internships and even Universities that are not APA accredited is the myth that the education and training are somehow inferior. I, myself am married in my 30's and I can travel to some extent and I do, but switching to online education was of great benefit to me. This decision did not compromise my ability to receive great training APA accredited included. Now, some more stringent Universities and training programs tend to have higher calibar students around but the actual quality of the professors and training do not change as a result.

 

[PsychGraduate]

In terms of educational quality online education can be equal and even better than brick and mortar, however, blended education seems to be the best. Still if one cannot travel for conferences, internships and further training then they will limit themselves.

 

[futureapppsy2]

blended education seems to be the best.

Based on what criteria/evidence?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A few areas of concern I have yet to see answered:

1. How is a student going to learn the variety of assessment measures completing work online? Psych assessments (which can't be mailed around, and really should only be released under the supervision of your professor/mentor/chair) can take awhile to master.

2. There are some unique challenges for psychology (research + clinical + assessment + classes, etc), and I have a hard time seeing how the training can be replicated online. How is this done?

3. I know I learned a great deal being immersed on campus, talking to other students, attending seminars, and spending time with faculty members. How does a distance ed program account for the hundreds/thousands of "other" hours a typical student completes between classes, at meetings, in the lab, etc?

 

[PsychGraduate]

A few areas of concern I have yet to see answered:

1. How is a student going to learn the variety of assessment measures completing work online? Psych assessments (which can't be mailed around, and really should only be released under the supervision of your professor/mentor/chair) can take awhile to master.

Many of the online programs, most in fact require face to face training in such assessments from licensed PhD professors in psychology. No graduate program in psychology that is regionally accredited would have 100% of the curriculum online. The online programs do have mentors and supervised training. Walden and Capella do. Fielding does too and is APA accredited.

2. There are some unique challenges for psychology (research + clinical + assessment + classes, etc), and I have a hard time seeing how the training can be replicated online. How is this done?

The training is carried out face to face, and in addition the student must pursue additional training. The online courses provide a basis of theory, research paper writing, seeking out internships nearby, and mentorship both online and over the phone. In addition the student meets face to face in both residencies and practica.


3. I know I learned a great deal being immersed on campus, talking to other students, attending seminars, and spending time with faculty members. How does a distance ed program account for the hundreds/thousands of "other" hours a typical student completes between classes, at meetings, in the lab, etc?

The classroom discussion online is usually superior to classroom discussion, especially in very large classrooms in traditional brick and mortar classrooms. The required classroom participation is far higher in the online environment as it must be which more than compensates in this regard. The classroom discussions are not only mandatory but they involve intense discussion with one's student peers. In addition it is usually (thought no always) easier to get in touch with an online professor than a busy professor in a brick and mortar University, though exceptions exist. Some online programs like Harvard Extension for example requires students to take a certain % of courses on the Harvard campus , and participate in on campus or supervised labs as well. No legitimate graduate psychology curriculum online is completely online.



Further comments: Many traditional and upper tier Universities of considerable prestige and solid psychology programs offer an increasing amount and percentage of online courses and even full majors online. I also recall some very disinterested professors and fellow students in my brick and mortar days. This is not to say that online institutions are immune to such things either, but all in all a good graduate online program in psychology is equal to traditional brick and mortar provided one:

1.) Studies correctly and with the appropriate time/effort put in.

2.) Reaches out to various internships, residencies, practicum, and professors.

3.) Is able to translate theory into action both under supervision and in self motivated conceptualization.

4.) Is serious about actually practicing what they have learned and not just being a walking glossary or encyclopedia.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Based on what criteria/evidence?

Peer reviewed assessments which can be found on Google Scholar quite readily. I can post some links up later on, time permitting

 

[PsychGraduate]

Just an anecdote about a discussion that I was a part of last week -

In a conversation last week, my current prac supervisor told me about the hiring process she is going through at the clinic she directs. She told me she received two applications from applicants who received their degrees from an online school (Fielding in both cases) and one application from a student who received their degree from a professional school (Argosy). She shared that she dismissed without review the applications from Fielding. She also said that she only reviewed the Argosy application because she is hiring for what is a masters level counseling position - and stated that she considers a doctorate from Argosy to be the same as a masters from a regular university. Also, let me just mention that ultimately the Argosy applicant was not selected for the position (a MA/LPC was selected).

While I am only a doctoral student at this time, where you receive your degree from does matter if you actually hope to seek gainful employment (and thats forgetting about licensure, which can be even more daunting through such institutions). My advice to those considering online schools or even professional schools - do your homework!

Best of luck!

That varies from state to state between different towns and cities and also depends upon the first impression the candidate gives as well. I know licensed clinical psychologists who graduated from Berkeley and Harvard I would not trust with any clients

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Many of the online programs, most in fact require face to face training in such assessments from licensed PhD professors in psychology. No graduate program in psychology that is regionally accredited would have 100% of the curriculum online. The online programs do have mentors and supervised training. Walden and Capella do. Fielding does too and is APA accredited.

Even if a program could prove equivalency under the current blended model, the current split between face to face training and online training is the reverse of what is needed. The majority of graduate training is spent outside of the classroom and not inside. The current blended model tries to push off the majority of hours to online training, and cram in the face to face hours into long days which can be eaten up but starting late, arriving early, etc. Anyone who has attended "weekend" seminars for CEUs knows this setup far too well.....and knows it is less effective.

The training is carried out face to face, and in addition the student must pursue additional training. The online courses provide a basis of theory, research paper writing, seeking out internships nearby, and mentorship both online and over the phone. In addition the student meets face to face in both residencies and practica.

Not for nearly enough hours.

The classroom discussion online is usually superior to classroom discussion, especially in very large classrooms in traditional brick and mortar classrooms. The required classroom participation is far higher in the online environment as it must be which more than compensates in this regard. The classroom discussions are not only mandatory but they involve intense discussion with one's student peers. In addition it is usually (thought no always) easier to get in touch with an online professor than a busy professor in a brick and mortar University, though exceptions exist. Some online programs like Harvard Extension for example requires students to take a certain % of courses on the Harvard campus , and participate in on campus or supervised labs as well. No legitimate graduate psychology curriculum online is completely online.

Graduate school doesn't have large classes, which is one great change from most undergraduate experiences. B&M professors are busy, but you can find them in their office, in the lab, grab coffee with them, see them after class, etc.

Further comments: Many traditional and upper tier Universities of considerable prestige and solid psychology programs offer an increasing amount and percentage of online courses and even full majors online.

The inclusion of online classes at traditional universities was an economically-fueled response to budget cuts and revenue decreases. Online classes make significantly more per class when compared to their B&M counter-parts. Many professors refuse to teach online (myself included),so universities look towards adjuncts, who also make less per class, which boosts net revenue higher.

1.) Studies correctly and with the appropriate time/effort put in.

2.) Reaches out to various internships, residencies, practicum, and professors.

3.) Is able to translate theory into action both under supervision and in self motivated conceptualization.

4.) Is serious about actually practicing what they have learned and not just being a walking glossary or encyclopedia.

This “self-motivated” idea is a straw-man because it implies traditional students are not self-motivated and that being self-motivated guarantees a positive outcome. Anyone who has supervised has probably had a self-motivated student who was 3x the work because they were too independent and didn’t’ seek enough guidance/mentorship. Self-motivation is needed in ANY graduate program, though I think it is sometimes used as a way to excuse less supervision/mentorship.