Pros and Cons of being a psychologist in California vs. Washington state?

[annonymous_username]

Hello,

I'd love to hear some of the pros and cons of being a psychologist in California or Washington.

Given that two large states on the West Coast tend to have ample job opportunities both in the large systems (VAs, Kaiser, etc.) and private practice settings, I'd love to hear from those of you who have considered either state for their job or post-doc opportunities (which would ideally lead to a job opportunity), and why you chose the place over the other.

Also, I'd love to hear from psychologists currently in each location and what you appreciate about being a psychologist in that region!

Thank you very much!

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[Sanman]

While I am sure others will chime in, I think that this is really more of a personal decision. California is a large state and it can be difficult to generalize depending on where you want to live. However, I personally find the standard of living I expect to be cost prohibitive in many parts of CA on the average psychologist's salary.

 

[foreverbull]

California resident here. California has far more job opportunities than WA, but also far more competition. Maintaining licensure is more expensive in California at present, but it’s not that far off in WA. Both states have their own state-level exam, but WA has an open-book exam and CA's CPLEE (ethics exam) is not open book but similar to the EPPP in terms of test-taking milieu.

I've considered WA at times as a flippant “what if,” with a brief search of jobs, licensure, & home prices there. It’s really hard to distill the pros and cons of both here succinctly because here’s the thing: what most people want from both states is living in a nice area near or in a large metro area, day trip distance to beaches or mountains or both, and a decent standard of living (ie being able to purchase a home on a psychologist’s income, maybe raise a family, have disposable income for entertainment, etc.). All of these things will require the most coveted jobs in expensive areas in both states.

Seattle is increasingly becoming more expensive real estate-wise. Houses there and in outlying areas are rapidly approaching California prices, although not quite there yet. Some Californians have been moving up the coast (Portland, Seattle) for the lower cost of living, and obviously everywhere is getting more expensive to live.

The best standard of living financially is living where others don’t want to (central/eastern WA and Central Valley CA), but you give up the closeness to the cities, beaches, etc., so it depends on how much you value your surroundings. Not to naysay—you can make a living in either, but it won’t necessarily be easy. A lot of folks in my area and my age cannot afford a home with a low six figure income unless they have a massive down payment. Starter homes in my town are $700k+, and where I live is actually a lot cheaper than towns closer to the city.

WA will be slightly cheaper, so it’s possible to get more bang for your buck there as long as your pay is not scaled down accordingly as it tends to be in academia jobs.

Is there any pull toward either? You could spend some time getting a feel for both if you’re wavering, by looking at weather, real estate prices, job listings, visiting, etc.

 

[msc545]

Don't forget the climate. It rains like hell in Washington all the time, and if you have even a slight vulnerability to SAD you will soon find that out for sure in Washington.

 

[borne_before]

Don't forget the climate. It rains like hell in Washington all the time, and if you have even a slight vulnerability to SAD you will soon find that out for sure in Washington.

Washington is a weird state. The PNW rains a ton. But, you go inland and you have hardcore winters with 100 degree summers. Personally, I'd choose Washington over Commiefornia.

 

[Mama Bear]

The eastern side of WA has a desert.

In CA, you may have to take some extra courses to meet licensing requirements (I think a gero and human sexuality course, if I recall).

 

[summerbabe]

Washington is a weird state. The PNW rains a ton. But, you go inland and you have hardcore winters with 100 degree summers. Personally, I'd choose Washington over Commiefornia.

Western WA is home to Olympic National Park which is the only (temperate) rainforest in North America. So it rains a lot on the western side.

But about 350 miles southeast is the small town of Pasco, WA, which due to geography of the Cascade Range is considered a desert due to low rainfall. It looks like any other town and go another few miles east or west, the rain is back to normal.

One thing that outsiders may not know is the duality of WA (and OR). Outside of the Seattle metro/most of Western WA (and Portland/Eugene for OR), Washington is much more akin to Idaho in terms of politics, culture and likely job opportunities.

Lots of small towns, a good amount of agriculture, possibly close to good outdoor recreation, not super diverse & the average citizen is probably a non-evangelical Conservative. But within these areas, there's usually some hippy enclaves and things more associated with the liberal West like bougie coffee shops that serve avocado toast.

Having lived in Eastern WA for many years, unless you're a total city person, I prefer most of rural WA to the Seattle area for everyday living (unless you bought property pre-dotcom/Amazon). Super nice and down to earth people, slow pace of life, & much more affordable.

There are some places to probably avoid (Yakima is not so affectionately known as Crackima & Yakistan) but lots of smaller towns could be good for a PP that does a lot of telehealth. But institutional based jobs will be in short supply due to rural demographics.

Heck, in Joseph, OR you can't get natural gas because it doesn't make economic sense to build pipelines & infrastructure into that area. Coincidentally, Lake Wallowa in Joseph might be the clearest body of water I've ever seen. Not sure if any places exist like that in WA but some places can definitely feel disconnected like that (which I personally liked).

 

[cara susanna]

I lived in Portland, OR for a while and found the weather downright tropical compared to the upper Midwest state where I attended grad school, lol. Some of my cohort who'd lived in CA had to buy lightboxes, though. I personally loved the weather: not too hot, not too cold.

 

[WisNeuro]

I lived in Portland, OR for a while and found the weather downright tropical compared to the upper Midwest state where I attended grad school, lol. Some of my cohort who'd lived in CA had to buy lightboxes, though. I personally loved the weather: not too hot, not too cold.

As far as the PNW, couldn't stand the constant cold dampness 9 months of the year and the extreme passive aggressiveness in communication style. I was glad to get back to the Midwest after living both there and in the South.

 

[calimich]

According to ChatGPT...
Pros and cons of being a psychologist in California vs Washington state can vary based on individual preferences and career goals. Here are some factors to consider:

Washington State:

Pros:

1. Lower cost of living: Washington generally has a lower cost of living compared to California, allowing psychologists to stretch their incomes further.
2. Quality of life: Washington offers a high quality of life with abundant natural beauty, outdoor recreational opportunities, and a generally more relaxed pace of living.
3. Licensing requirements: Washington's licensing requirements for psychologists may be less stringent compared to California, depending on individual circumstances.
4. Thriving tech industry: Washington is home to a thriving tech industry, which can provide opportunities for psychologists specializing in areas like workplace mental health and technology addiction.

Cons:

1. Smaller population: Washington has a smaller population compared to California, which may result in fewer potential clients and job opportunities, particularly in rural areas.
2. Less diversity: Washington's population is generally less diverse compared to California, which may limit the range of cultural experiences available to psychologists.
3. Lower average income: Psychologists in Washington may earn lower salaries compared to California due to the lower cost of living and potentially fewer high-paying opportunities.
4. Seasonal affective disorder (SAD): Some parts of Washington, particularly in the northern regions, experience long periods of overcast weather and limited sunlight, which can impact mental health and contribute to seasonal affective disorder.

California:

Pros:

1. Larger population: California has a significantly larger population than Washington, providing more potential clients and opportunities for practice.
2. Diverse population: California's diverse population offers psychologists the chance to work with a wide range of cultural backgrounds and experiences.
3. Higher average income: Psychologists in California generally earn higher salaries compared to many other states due to the higher cost of living.
4. Prestigious institutions: California is home to several prestigious universities and research institutions, providing opportunities for collaboration and professional development.

Cons:

1. Higher cost of living: California has a high cost of living, however this is mitigated by living rent-free in the minds of residents from other states.
2. Licensing requirements: California has strict licensing requirements for psychologists, including additional exams and supervised experience hours.
3. Competition: The west is the best.
4. Traffic and congestion: Some websites, especially anonymous message boards, are clogged by posters trying to bash the Golden State, and sometimes Washington State, or even the whole PNW.
5. Passive aggressiveness!

 

[cara susanna]

Passive aggressiveness? I'm surprised, because my husband is from California and he thinks people in the Midwest are passive aggressive

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

Passive aggressiveness? I'm surprised, because my husband is from California and he thinks people in the Midwest are passive aggressive

My husband is from Pennsylvania and thinks the same thing about Midwesterners.

 

[msc545]

Washington is a weird state. The PNW rains a ton. But, you go inland and you have hardcore winters with 100 degree summers. Personally, I'd choose Washington over Commiefornia.

If the politics mean that much to you, move to a red state.

 

[cara susanna]

I loved living in California. I miss it!

 

[The Cinnabon]

I loved living in California. I miss it!

Going to hijack the thread for a second as this reminds of the time my parents, around 20 years ago, were about to close a deal on a nice 4 bedroom house right outside of San Diego for a "mere" 400K. Needless to say they said it was a pretty massive regret they didn't take it because the house is now valued at multiples of that cost.

 

[Sanman]

Going to hijack the thread for a second as this reminds of the time my parents, around 20 years ago, were about to close a deal on a nice 4 bedroom house right outside of San Diego for a "mere" 400K. Needless to say they said it was a pretty massive regret they didn't take it because the house is now valued at multiples of that cost.

Rose colored glasses and hindsight. It may have worked out well or that house could have been destroyed in a flood, wildfire, etc. Perhaps it is simply uninsurable by homeowners insurance as a lot of CA, FL and homes in others areas with natural disasters are becoming. It's funny how easily we dismiss the downsides!

 

[foreverbull]

Rose colored glasses and hindsight. It may have worked out well or that house could have been destroyed in a flood, wildfire, etc. Perhaps it is simply uninsurable by homeowners insurance as a lot of CA, FL and homes in others areas with natural disasters are becoming. It's funny how easily we dismiss the downsides!

Maybe, but even a house split in half by an earthquake might still fetch a good price outside of San Diego these days! Burned out or condemned houses close to Palo Alto or SF have gone for over a million in bidding wars, if not much higher than that. People pay a lot just for the plot of land out here—but varies widely by city and desirability of the area, of course.

 

[Sanman]

Maybe, but even a house split in half by an earthquake might still fetch a good price outside of San Diego these days! Burned out or condemned houses close to Palo Alto or SF have gone for over a million in bidding wars, if not much higher than that. People pay a lot just for the plot of land out here—but varies widely by city and desirability of the area, of course.

That is only useful if you want to leave CA. Otherwise, you're just someone stuck living in a house split in half with no place to go because a house not split in half is double the price!

 

[ClinicalABA]

Maybe, but even a house split in half by an earthquake might still fetch a good price outside of San Diego these days! Burned out or condemned houses close to Palo Alto or SF have gone for over a million in bidding wars, if not much higher than that. People pay a lot just for the plot of land out here—but varies widely by city and desirability of the area, of course.

Was consulting/doing some training ings in San Ramon ten or so years ago. Picked up one of those houses for sale booklets out of curiosity. The standout was a literal hole in the ground- dug out for foundation with some sloppy slab work started and abandoned. 699k! 10 years ago! MA is bad, but bay area is on a whole other level.

 

[TrueButUseless]

The eastern side of WA has a desert.

In CA, you may have to take some extra courses to meet licensing requirements (I think a gero and human sexuality course, if I recall).

All of the courses can be completed for $150 total and knocked out in a weekend. It’s really a formality.

 

[msc545]

All of the courses can be completed for $150 total and knocked out in a weekend. It’s really a formality.

Actually, there is a website - CEs Online for Social Workers, Psychologists, Counselors & MFTs | Ce4less where you can do for even less and more quickly. These courses are required because some politicians thought it would be a good idea.

 

[boomshakalaka]

All of the courses can be completed for $150 total and knocked out in a weekend. It’s really a formality.

Exactly.

CA licensure fees are up over $800, which is wild! That was an unexpected surprise when I renewed.

 

[msc545]

Exactly.

CA licensure fees are up over $800, which is wild! That was an unexpected surprise when I renewed.

Renewal of your license is now $ 1000. Probably will go up from there.

 

[Sanman]

Renewal of your license is now $ 1000. Probably will go up from there.

With those fees and the cost of living, what are people charging hourly in PP? I would hope $400+

 

[foreverbull]

Renewal of your license is now $ 1000. Probably will go up from there.

Renewal Fees are $825 plus I think another $30 for processing fees for 2 years, so around $425/year.

But yes, the fees just jumped $300 this year for that 2 year period which is a MASSIVE jump from the $530 that it was last year for a 2-year renewal.

 

[foreverbull]

Exactly.

CA licensure fees are up over $800, which is wild! That was an unexpected surprise when I renewed.

Why did we suddenly need a 60% jump in fees?! I don’t remember seeing the board’s justification for this increase. Usually my local county psych listserv is a-buzz with big changes in our field/state, but no one has said a word about it there.

 

[boomshakalaka]

I had to do some digging about the increase because I also heard nothing about it. It was part of an assembly bill that seems to have flown under everyone's radar. The bill sponsor also attempted to increase MD licensing fees but I believe was less successful.

 

[msc545]

With those fees and the cost of living, what are people charging hourly in PP? I would hope $400+

Yes, but good luck getting that much.

 

[TrueButUseless]

Actually, there is a website - CEs Online for Social Workers, Psychologists, Counselors & MFTs | Ce4less where you can do for even less and more quickly. These courses are required because some politicians thought it would be a good idea.

Yes, those are all potentially free if you sign up for the free trial and complete the asynchronous coursework before the trial ends. Easy to do in a weekend.

The $150 I referenced is for the substance use course that CA also requires. To my knowledge, APA accredited doctoral programs do not necessarily meet this state-specific licensure requirement. There is at least one course available online that does meet the requirement, and is popular among interns/fellows in CA who attended school out of state. The price may be different now, but last I checked it was somewhere around $150.