Only have 100 hours volunteering

[PhysicianScientist]

Hi all,

I am applying to mostly MD/PhD and will only have 100 hours of clinical volunteering by the time I apply. Will this be a significant problem? I will also have around 40 hours of shadowing 3 doctors and only about 30 hours of non-clinical volunteering. Also would it matter that these 100 hours were gained over the course of 2 years? MCAT is 36 and GPA is 3.75 and research is solid with pubs but I'm worried I'll have trouble because of the low clinical hours.

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[HCHopeful]

Well, 130 total hours of volunteering certainly isn't optimal. Your numbers are clearly competitive, but the only thing that would hold you back is your lack of altruism that is evident. Some will say you're okay, some will say you're not. Is your research clinical, perhaps? You only have 140 hours of clinical experience total if not, which isn't amazing.

Just try to get as many volunteering hours (preferably clinical) by June. Another 50 hours could make a big impact.

 

[toastytoastie]

Well, 130 total hours of volunteering certainly isn't optimal. Your numbers are clearly competitive, but the only thing that would hold you back is your lack of altruism that is evident. Some will say you're okay, some will say you're not. Is your research clinical, perhaps? You only have 140 hours of clinical experience total if not, which isn't amazing.

Just try to get as many volunteering hours (preferably clinical) by June. Another 50 hours could make a big impact.

Yeah, definitely try to bulk up on the clinical hours. Could you possibly get another volunteering gig at a VA near you? Usually VA hospitals don't have as many bureaucratic hoops to jump through compared to private/public hospitals, so it might be a good way to get fast hours. As you are applying MD/PhD, you will really need to make the case that you've explored the MD side of things, and that you're positive you don't just want the PhD.

 

[PhysicianScientist]

Well, 130 total hours of volunteering certainly isn't optimal. Your numbers are clearly competitive, but the only thing that would hold you back is your lack of altruism that is evident. Some will say you're okay, some will say you're not. Is your research clinical, perhaps? You only have 140 hours of clinical experience total if not, which isn't amazing.

Just try to get as many volunteering hours (preferably clinical) by June. Another 50 hours could make a big impact.

My research is all basic science and does not have much to do with biology unfortunately, but I've been told that the type of research doesn't matter so I'm hoping that's the case...

 

[PhysicianScientist]

Yeah, definitely try to bulk up on the clinical hours. Could you possibly get another volunteering gig at a VA near you? Usually VA hospitals don't have as many bureaucratic hoops to jump through compared to private/public hospitals, so it might be a good way to get fast hours. As you are applying MD/PhD, you will really need to make the case that you've explored the MD side of things, and that you're positive you don't just want the PhD.

Thanks for the advice. My problem is mostly that I am split between studying and research that I barely have time for volunteering. Is there certain number target of clinical volunteering that you would suggest I reach before applying? Also does clinical volunteering abroad also count? I plan on making a one week mission trip to a developing country before I apply if that would matter..

 

[Doug Underhill]

Well, if the national average for matriculants is 150 hours and you can see that lots of people have much more than that, there are clearly candidates who have less than that. If you have a nice GPA and MCAT, you can probably get away with it.

 

[PhysicianScientist]

Well, if the national average for matriculants is 150 hours and you can see that lots of people have much more than that, there are clearly candidates who have less than that. If you have a nice GPA and MCAT, you can probably get away with it.

That's true... Maybe if I can get to 150 I'll be okay but probably not for top schools I assume

 

[Doug Underhill]

It would depend on the mission, I would think. The top schools are thought to be more research-heavy.

 

[senzen]

I think LizzyM once said the average she's seen among her applicants was around 200 for clinical volunteering.

But Goro and other adcoms I've spoken to have said that >100 is good.

@Doug Underhill where did you get that figure?

 

[toastytoastie]

Thanks for the advice. My problem is mostly that I am split between studying and research that I barely have time for volunteering. Is there certain number target of clinical volunteering that you would suggest I reach before applying? Also does clinical volunteering abroad also count? I plan on making a one week mission trip to a developing country before I apply if that would matter..

I ran into this problem too. Disclaimer--I applied to MD only programs, and am now intending to transfer internally to MD/PhD, so my process will be different than yours.

I would absolutely shoot for ~150-200. I applied with ~300 volunteering hours, ~80 shadowing. The mission trip should count, but it won't be as significant as longitudinal experiences. Do you feel you have a compelling "why MD not just PhD" narrative? That's what I'm really worried about. Obviously, quality of experience >> quantity, but you're on the lower end of the quantity spectrum. Especially if your research isn't terribly medically related, it might be hard to tie in all of your experiences into a cohesive story pointing towards a medical career. How are your stats? Competitive?

Obviously, as an MD/PhD applicant, your research is more important than your clinical experiences. But to be more secure, I really would recommend investing another ~2-3 hrs/week into volunteering, in addition to your mission trip.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I think LizzyM once said the average she's seen among her applicants was around 200 for clinical volunteering.

But Goro and other adcoms I've spoken to has said that >100 is good.

@Doug Underhill where did you get that figure?

I got it from Goro too

 

[deleted407021]

Maybe we can get a @Goro confirmation on the ~100 hr thing.

 

[mimelim]

I think LizzyM once said the average she's seen among her applicants was around 200 for clinical volunteering.

But Goro and other adcoms I've spoken to have said that >100 is good.

@Doug Underhill where did you get that figure?

I got it from Goro too

<50 Will hurt you at most, if not all schools. It certainly will not keep you out of medical school, but the likelihood that someone looking at your application will have an issue with it is reasonably high.

100-300 Normal range

>300 Above average, but most of the time meaningless. Can be extremely advantageous if intertwined with other aspects of an application. Hours for the sake of hours is worth very little. Actually doing something worthwhile with your time (usually because you actually want to do it, not just checking a box) are usually found on the strongest applications.


For what it's worth, my experience has been ~200 hours was average and 50 hours was ~10th percentile (for that one metric)

 

[deleted407021]

<50 Will hurt you at most, if not all schools. It certainly will not keep you out of medical school, but the likelihood that someone looking at your application will have an issue with it is reasonably high.

100-300 Normal range

>300 Above average, but most of the time meaningless. Can be extremely advantageous if intertwined with other aspects of an application. Hours for the sake of hours is worth very little. Actually doing something worthwhile with your time (usually because you actually want to do it, not just checking a box) are usually found on the strongest applications.

So, I'll have like 700 clinical hours by the time I apply, but that will largely be from scribing and a clinic manager position of labs coordinator, which I enjoy and is a very crucial position for the successful delivery of patient care. I don't want those hours to appear empty. Would you get that impression?

 

[mimelim]

So, I'll have like 700 clinical hours by the time I apply, but that will largely be from scribing and a clinic manager position of labs coordinator, which I enjoy and is a very crucial position for the successful delivery of patient care. I don't want those hours to appear empty. Would you get that impression?

My point is that 300 vs 700 doesn't really mean a whole lot to most of us. The question is how much did you get out of it. There are certain things that tend to get learned after spending years doing something rather than a semester or two. Also, from an altruistic perspective, obviously a large number of hours matter. If you were paid for those hours though, it is a lot harder to really see someone overly altruistic. Hope that makes sense... 1000 hours of free clinic > 1000 hours scribing. That isn't to say that scribing is bad. My point is that it is all about what you got out of it, rather than both what you got out of it and the fact that you spend your free time helping others.

 

[Goro]

100 is the minimum. Agree 100% with Mimelim. Most cookie cutter apps have ~100 hrs. These people, I wonder, are doing what more convenient, than necessary.

Maybe we can get a @Goro confirmation on the ~100 hr thing.

 

[HCHopeful]

Are we referring to just clinical volunteering hours in the posts above? And would having 200+ hours of non-clinical volunteering make up for a sub-100 number in clinical volunteering (say, 75)?

Just curious.

 

[bee17]

You should check out the Physician Scientist forum. One of @Neuronix 's threads has been stickied there about the MD/PhD application process. It seems like the general consensus on the Physician Scientist forum is Research >>> other ECs, but that you should have enough clinical ECs to adequately answer "why medicine?".

 

[Neuronix]

Should be fine at most MD/PhD programs.

 

[justadream]

When you guys talk about hours, does it include purely volunteering (does shadowing count toward those hour totals or not?)?

 

[WedgeDawg]

youre totally fine don't worry

 

[deleted446889]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would having a paid job as a medical scribe fulfill the same requirement as clinical volunteering?

 

[Doug Underhill]

It shows that you know what you're getting into, but does not show altruism.

 

[frodo25]

The difference between 100 hours and 150 hours seems minimal to me if you don't get anything out of the 50 more hours. If you have a cohesive story and a clear reason why you want to go into medicine, the 50 hours is not needed in my opinion. I think 100 hours is a nice round number, but I think med schools are looking primarily for your experience rather than how many hours you racked up in 4 years. For example, one applicant can have volunteered 500 hours in a hospital stocking fridges and making beds with no patient contact, while another can have 100 hours gaining real experience in a free clinic. I'm not an adcom, but I believe the applicant with 100 hours in the clinic would have a better story and more likely to be accepted. So, if you haven't gotten anything out of the 100 hours you have already, you should try to obtain more meaningful hours.

 

[ErbB1]

I'm sorry. I have to chime in here. So, I want to be a physician-scientist also, primarily because I feel like I can make the biggest difference helping people via translational bench research. As a result, I have spent most of my time doing such research, rather than doing some trivial "clinical volunteering" just for my medical school app. I should only have about 70hrs total because of this.

Anyways, I HATE how people suggest that this shows I am not altruistic. I want to dedicate my life toward developing therapies to HELP people. Me doing research and being in the lab everyday trying to develop a new chemotheuraputic is me being altruistic.

But hey. I don't volunteer enough so I am clearly not a good person, nor should I be a physician. Conducting research to help people isn't altruistic, apparently.


(End rant)

 

[HCHopeful]

I'm sorry. I have to chime in here. So, I want to be a physician-scientist also, primarily because I feel like I can make the biggest difference helping people via translational bench research. As a result, I have spent most of my time doing such research, rather than doing some trivial "clinical volunteering" just for my medical school app. I should only have about 70hrs total because of this.

Anyways, I HATE how people suggest that this shows I am not altruistic. I want to dedicate my life toward developing therapies to HELP people. Me doing research and being in the lab everyday trying to develop a new chemotheuraputic is me being altruistic.

But hey. I don't volunteer enough so I am clearly not a good person, nor should I be a physician. Conducting research to help people isn't altruistic, apparently.


(End rant)

I don't know that you'll get much support from that statement in here. The simple truth is that while your research could have an impact on someone down the line, at this current moment in time it is more beneficial for you simply from an interest and resume standpoint. Volunteering, on the other hand, is only beneficial (materialistically), to those you are helping. While it can aid you spiritually, there are no immediate benefits for the volunteer. Showing you are able to go out of your way to help people while knowing there's nothing in it for you is sort of the point. Working in a research lab while being compensated or getting class credit is not strictly only for others, as it is beneficial to you as well.

Having said that, I completely understand where you're coming from and often think the volunteering requirements are a bit unnecessary. Many of the medical students I am friends with have admitted that they had volunteering jobs filing papers, but on their application exaggerated their role by saying they had patient exposure. It seems as if most people treat it as a checkbox. To be fair, some do get great volunteering gigs and end up learning a lot about something they care deeply for, but I would say that's the exception and not the rule.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I'm sorry. I have to chime in here. So, I want to be a physician-scientist also, primarily because I feel like I can make the biggest difference helping people via translational bench research. As a result, I have spent most of my time doing such research, rather than doing some trivial "clinical volunteering" just for my medical school app. I should only have about 70hrs total because of this.

Anyways, I HATE how people suggest that this shows I am not altruistic. I want to dedicate my life toward developing therapies to HELP people. Me doing research and being in the lab everyday trying to develop a new chemotheuraputic is me being altruistic.

But hey. I don't volunteer enough so I am clearly not a good person, nor should I be a physician. Conducting research to help people isn't altruistic, apparently.


(End rant)

I think it's wrong to say it shows a lack of altruism. I think it's right to think, though, that if an applicant spent all of his or her time looking for new RTK inhibitors, and spent no time in a clinic understanding what happens there, and what can suck about it, then he or she might be more cut out for grad school.

 

[Planes2Doc]

ONLY 130 hours?! 😕

Mr. Burns, is that you?! I thought it was!

For real though, you should be fine. If you're looking at MD/PhD, focus more on the research. Also, since you don't have to put hours per week on the recent AMCAS (versus when I applied), you have the opportunity to "binge volunteer" at your convenience. This can make it look like a more significant commitment, though as others said, you should be fine considering your research and very fine stats. Good luck!!!

 

[newbeginnings]

I did my 100+ hours of shadowing 2 years ago.. is that bad? I'm re-starting hospital volunteering next month (had 150+ hours). I also have many nonclinical volunteering. What's the statue of limitations (how many years ago is it acceptable for an EC's hours to "count")?

 

[Angie_MD]

100 is the minimum. Agree 100% with Mimelim. Most cookie cutter apps have ~100 hrs. These people, I wonder, are doing what more convenient, than necessary.

Goro, will working as a veterinary assistant count towards anything on my application?
also should I mention some community work that I have done with animals? Im hoping it means something although I know its animal related.

 

[Goro]

It's a work experience, and that's fine. But anything with animals needs to be balanced out with human contact experience, lest an Adcom say "why not just be a vet?"

Goro, will working as a veterinary assistant count towards anything on my application?
also should I mention some community work that I have done with animals? Im hoping it means something although I know its animal related.

 

[mooop]

100 hours is not a lot. You need more clinical hours. MD/PhD is very competitive.

 

[MelloTangelo]

This thread definitely made me worry more than it should. As just a normal MD applicant, I'll only have around 100 hours of clinical volunteering, but around 500 hours of paid clinical hours. Is this going to be an issue (my non clinical-volunteering is pretty measly, maybe some 30 hours)?

 

[mooop]

This thread definitely made me worry more than it should. As just a normal MD applicant, I'll only have around 100 hours of clinical volunteering, but around 500 hours of paid clinical hours. Is this going to be an issue (my non clinical-volunteering is pretty measly, maybe some 30 hours)?

That's a pretty weak sign of altruism. Only 150 hours of volunteer work in 4 years?