Only submitting high school transcript and not Undergraduate

[Familiar]

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Hello,
The title says it all. I performed much better in high school than I did in undergraduate. I am planning on applying to a school abroad that does not require any sort of standardized test or college degree. Would it be better if I just left out my undergraduate transcript all together?

 

[Rajaredhilu]

Hello,
The title says it all. I performed much better in high school than I did in undergraduate. I am planning on applying to a school abroad that does not require any sort of standardized test or college degree. Would it be better if I just left out my undergraduate transcript all together?

could i ask what school youre applying to?
and if graduates from that school can practice in the us?

 

[gyngyn]

Is this a medical school?

 

[RangerBob]

If this is for medical school, any school that accepts your high school transcript in lieu of your college diploma can't possibly be worth applying to (there are already plenty that ask for your undergrad transcript that aren't worth applying to).

If your goal is to practice in the country that school is in it may be a different story.

 

[AllBleedingStops]

Without knowing any more details I would say do not apply to that school if you later want to practice in the United States. If you want to practice in the country it is located, maybe. Still, there are usually much better options.

 

[Robin-jay]

Hello,
The title says it all. I performed much better in high school than I did in undergraduate. I am planning on applying to a school abroad that does not require any sort of standardized test or college degree. Would it be better if I just left out my undergraduate transcript all together?

Dunno what the situation is. But I'm 99% sure you're going down a sketchy path.

 

[Lucca]

Multiple red flags going off. Reconsider everything, OP.

 

[Goro]

Hello,
The title says it all. I performed much better in high school than I did in undergraduate. I am planning on applying to a school abroad that does not require any sort of standardized test or college degree. Would it be better if I just left out my undergraduate transcript all together?

Recipe for disaster. Read this:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[frog301]

Not sure why high school coursework would suffice as a substitute for university level coursework that's relevant to the path you're trying to pursue? Also not sure why you're going for international school (unless you plan to reside/practice in that country).

 

[DokterMom]

Sorry to be so blunt, but --
If you couldn't succeed in college, what makes you think you will be able to succeed in medical school?

 

[Robin-jay]

what makes you think you will be able to succeed in medical school?

The out-of-country schools that say "you are meant for medicine, for just a lowly payment of 400k".

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The out-of-country schools that say "you are meant for medicine, for just a lowly payment of 400k".

My favorite is the AUA ad that says they don’t take the MCAT into consideration. Like, you just did poorly on the one standardized measure of how well you understand the foundational sciences and the best predictor of success in medical school? No problem! Come drop several hundred thousand dollars for a 50/50 chance at being a doctor!

 

[Robin-jay]

My favorite is the AUA ad that says they don’t take the MCAT into consideration. Like, you just did poorly on the one standardized measure of how well you understand the foundational sciences and the best predictor of success in medical school? No problem! Come drop several hundred thousand dollars for a 50/50 chance at being a doctor!

Johns Hopkins offers a program where if you do well, there is no need for the MCAT, and you can get admitted to ivy league MD programs.

LECOM also has the SAT take the place of the MCAT for some reason.

I wish only out-of-country did this, I wish..

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Johns Hopkins offers a program where if you do well, there is no need for the MCAT, and you can get admitted to ivy league MD programs.

LECOM also has the SAT take the place of the MCAT for some reason.

I wish only out-of-country did this, I wish..

The Hopkins thing makes sense because they know the quality of their own classes and what their grades mean. I don’t get taking the SAT over the MCAT though. That makes no sense.

 

[Robin-jay]

The Hopkins thing makes sense because they know the quality of their own classes and what their grades mean. I don’t get taking the SAT over the MCAT though. That makes no sense.

My close friend teaches those classes to the students at the Johns Hopkins program.....it is a poor representation. He said himself that many would not get into DO schools had had the MCAT be mandatory.

The reason those people get ahead is because of their wallet size. 50-100k for that program before medical school, pretty much ensures acceptance.

 

[Robin-jay]

About 2.2% of all matriculating US MD students never take the MCAT. in 2017 that would be 460 students

https://www.aamc.org/download/485324/data/msq2017report.pdf

View attachment 236014
View attachment 236012

IMHO, that's appalling.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My close friend teaches those classes to the students at the Johns Hopkins program.....it is a poor representation. He said himself that many would not get into DO schools had had the MCAT be mandatory.

The reason those people get ahead is because of their wallet size. 50-100k for that program before medical school, pretty much ensures acceptance.

Yikes.

 

[Robin-jay]

Why appalling? Many of the BS/MD and early acceptance programs, such as Mount Sinai FlexMed specifically ban students from taking the MCAT. These are students have been essentially been under the supervision and evaluation of medical school faculty for several terms. Additionally, a combination of wanting to preserve the "investment" of time, effort, and cost in the student as well not wanting them to spend focus on something other than the curriculum, is likely why this regulation exists

I understand what you're saying, but we all know the MCAT is what makes or breaks students chances, especially for MD schools. No amount of medical school staff supervision will be sufficient enough to ever know how well they would have done taking the test.

Many individuals, who otherwise are incredible applicants, get turned down for low MCAT scores consistently.

It's simply not fair that some students can bypass the test.

 

[bushido]

Here's what I would recommend:

1.) Exit out of that school's website
2.) Delete your web history
3.) Forget you ever heard about that school
4.) Assess whether or not your GPA is salvageable
5.) Continue



Seriously though that sounds extremely sketchy. If you're wanting to go study abroad at a medical school that doesn't require the MCAT and will accept nothing but your high school transcript, then plan on living in that country forever, because it sounds like that'd be the only place where that MD would hold any weight.

When in doubt, just listen to @Goro

 

[Goro]

I understand what you're saying, but we all know the MCAT is what makes or breaks students chances, especially for MD schools. No amount of medical school staff supervision will be sufficient enough to ever know how well they would have done taking the test.

Many individuals, who otherwise are incredible applicants, get turned down for low MCAT scores consistently.

It's simply not fair that some students can bypass the test.

And how much teaching of undergrads do you have to make this ststement?

Remember, it's not what applicants want; it's what med schools want.

 

[Robin-jay]

And how much teaching of undergrads do you have to make this ststement?

15 courses

Remember, it's not what applicants want; it's what med schools want.

1) all students could have applied to these programs that allow a pathway to medical school without MCAT. That is perfectly fair

2) no student is required to ever apply to medical. It is perfectly fair and free choice for you to make. Once you make that decision you have agreed to follow whatever requirements are needed to apply

3) it is perfectly fair for each medical schools to decide on the best method and criteria to choose students to be trainec as physicians

4) as for fairness to students, understand this: the mission of the school is to train physicians. Being fair to applicants goes only as far as it supports this mission and what is required by law. You are only raw material for the medical school system to produce physicians

That's true, but its definitely a slap in the face to people who have taken and done well enough on the MCAT to be admitted.

I hear all the time from ADCOMs, physicians, med students, pre meds, etc. that a high MCAT is needed because of the standardized tests in med school will be difficult, and that without a decent score they don't have the knowledge, etc. on these forums constantly.

So which is it...is a high MCAT needed to show knowledge and good test taking schools to prepare for medical schools, or is its purpose solely a gateway into admission? It can't be both if we are saying medical students don't need the MCAT for medical school.

 

[Goro]

15 courses






That's true, but its definitely a slap in the face to people who have taken and done well enough on the MCAT to be admitted.

I hear all the time from ADCOMs, physicians, med students, pre meds, etc. that a high MCAT is needed because of the standardized tests in med school will be difficult, and that without a decent score they don't have the knowledge, etc. on these forums constantly.

So which is it...is a high MCAT needed to show knowledge and good test taking schools to prepare for medical schools, or is its purpose solely a gateway into admission? It can't be both if we are saying medical students don't need the MCAT for medical school.

Why is it a slap in the face? These students going through the combined BS/MD program take coursework that let admissions committee members know that they can handle Medical School. These products are known entities.
Do not let jealousy Cloud your judgement.

 

[Robin-jay]

Why is it a slap in the face?

Because students expend their time MCAT studying, whereas they could be using it to increase GPA, etc.

Also, it goes against the logic on these forums I see written by people every day. Is the MCAT needed to ensure good standardized test taking and basic science knowledge or not?

Now I'll be highly skeptical when these points are made on these forums because many people here "simultaneously" think not having an MCAT score is ok too.

Do not let jealousy Cloud your judgement.

I start the medical school curriculum in about 5 weeks. I'm not jealous. I get to be a physician and I'm super ecstatic about it. I get to treat patients and live a great life helping people as a respected physician. I've even come to love the thought of going for surgery over the past year.

However, I will say that medical school requirements these days are very wishy-washy. They are governed by high GPAs, so that emphasis on tougher science courses are not emphasized (lets make the school superficially look better by admitting people with high GPAs regardless of rigor), and the MCAT. Now you have the possibility to dodge the MCAT (a test that is now important but also not important).

 

[Gibbward]

15 courses






That's true, but its definitely a slap in the face to people who have taken and done well enough on the MCAT to be admitted.

I hear all the time from ADCOMs, physicians, med students, pre meds, etc. that a high MCAT is needed because of the standardized tests in med school will be difficult, and that without a decent score they don't have the knowledge, etc. on these forums constantly.

So which is it...is a high MCAT needed to show knowledge and good test taking schools to prepare for medical schools, or is its purpose solely a gateway into admission? It can't be both if we are saying medical students don't need the MCAT for medical school.

I could be remembering this wrong but an adcom here once said that a 27 Mcat or something like that is enough to prove that you can do fine in medical school. Med schools can just choose their own arbitrary ways of deciding who is best for them to admit, so they get higher stats coz why not?? On paper, they’ll have the much smarter kids in the applicant pool.

Plus it really isn’t all that unfair that others can bypass the MCAT. The people who get in through some sort of university undergrad-med school linkage are probably the top people in their classes so why not reward them? And the med school know these students’ coursework and have a good idea of how success in these result in good academic performance in med school aka the MCAT won’t be necessary to standardize their college GPA.

 

[Robin-jay]

I could be remembering this wrong but an adcom here once said that a 27 Mcat or something like that is enough to prove that you can do fine in medical school.

Not sure this means anything anymore.

Students in DO school and DPM school are taking the medical school curriculum with an MCAT score between 20-25 and are doing fine.

Apparently students at MD and DO schools with NO MCAT score at all are doing fine.

Doesn't seem to matter much.

The people who get in through some sort of university undergrad-med school linkage are probably the top people in their classes so why not reward them?

I think most of these programs are post-bacc., but even if that were true, high school grades have just about 0 correlation to success in medical school.

 

[Tenk]

I understand what you're saying, but we all know the MCAT is what makes or breaks students chances, especially for MD schools. No amount of medical school staff supervision will be sufficient enough to ever know how well they would have done taking the test.

Many individuals, who otherwise are incredible applicants, get turned down for low MCAT scores consistently.

It's simply not fair that some students can bypass the test.

Welcome to real life. Nothing is fair.

 

[Gibbward]

Not sure this means anything anymore.

Students in DO school and DPM school are taking the medical school curriculum with an MCAT score between 20-25 and are doing fine.

Apparently students at MD and DO schools with NO MCAT score at all are doing fine.

Doesn't seem to matter much.

All I'm saying is that a low mcat doesn't necessarily mean that a student is gonna be a bad medical student and won't be successful. But even in the table that gonnif had linked, people with higher MCATs fail the STEP1 on first attempt less frequently than those with lower MCATs. Med school wants to take as little risk as possible with their admitted students and want their school to look as perfect as possible (especially when it comes to STEP1 scores, matching, etc.) on paper so they're more inclined to take people with higher MCATs, though they may take exception for some cases which are exceptional in other ways.

I think most of these programs are post-bacc., but even if that were true, high school grades have just about 0 correlation to success in medical school.

Want to Skip the MCAT? Check Out These Programs | Student Doctor Network
Nah dude you can be like a sophomore in college, apply to an early acceptance program at your university's home medical school or affiliate medical school and skip the mcat all together. My old school had something like this, it's competitive as hell and only the top students get in. (some of these may now require the MCAT though just coz the list is older but some of those still are valid) When it comes to the BS/MDs, absolutely high school grades have no correlation to med school success, but those students still need to do well in a college curriculum that their med school thinks shows that they can handle the med school rigor. Same goes for any post-bacc/SMP program that let's you skip the MCAT.

 

[Goro]

Because students expend their time MCAT studying, whereas they could be using it to increase GPA, etc.

Also, it goes against the logic on these forums I see written by people every day. Is the MCAT needed to ensure good standardized test taking and basic science knowledge or not?

Now I'll be highly skeptical when these points are made on these forums because many people here "simultaneously" think not having an MCAT score is ok too.



I start the medical school curriculum in about 5 weeks. I'm not jealous. I get to be a physician and I'm super ecstatic about it. I get to treat patients and live a great life helping people as a respected physician. I've even come to love the thought of going for surgery over the past year.

However, I will say that medical school requirements these days are very wishy-washy. They are governed by high GPAs, so that emphasis on tougher science courses are not emphasized (lets make the school superficially look better by admitting people with high GPAs regardless of rigor), and the MCAT. Now you have the possibility to dodge the MCAT (a test that is now important but also not important).

Students in DO school and DPM school are taking the medical school curriculum with an MCAT score between 20-25 and are doing fine.
Apparently students at MD and DO schools with NO MCAT score at all are doing fine.


You're still not getting it. The students in the BS/MD track are applying to only a single school. In essence, it's make or break for them. This is a very different situation than than the typical pre-med.
While ECs are not stated requirements, they actually ARE requirements. Having high stats are simply the baseline. This is something hyperacheivers fail to understand.
If you look at COMLEX pass rates at DO schools, those with lower median MCAT scores have lower first time pass rates. The MCAT is a fair (at best) predictor of doing poorly in med school, and has a weak correlation with Step scores. The best predictor of Boards is how people do in thier preclinical curriculum, and/or NMBE shelf exams.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

All I'm saying is that a low mcat doesn't necessarily mean that a student is gonna be a bad medical student and won't be successful.

Right, except that the purpose of the MCAT is to demonstrate likelihood of success in medical school. The AAMC even says that a 500 on the MCAT is the threshold for a student most likely being able to succeed in med school. I get your second point, but if the test is supposed to be predictive of success, why shouldn’t all prospective med students have to take it? And if it isn’t, why should anyone have to take it?

 

[Med Ed]

Not sure this means anything anymore.

Students in DO school and DPM school are taking the medical school curriculum with an MCAT score between 20-25 and are doing fine.

Apparently students at MD and DO schools with NO MCAT score at all are doing fine.

Doesn't seem to matter much.

Depends on your definition of "doing fine." As MCAT score decreases the risk of failing Step 1 and getting dismissed for academic reasons both rise steadily.

 

[Gibbward]

Right, except that the purpose of the MCAT is to demonstrate likelihood of success in medical school. The AAMC even says that a 500 on the MCAT is the threshold for a student most likely being able to succeed in med school. I get your second point, but if the test is supposed to be predictive of success, why shouldn’t all prospective med students have to take it? And if it isn’t, why should anyone have to take it?

@gonnif already explained it a couple of posts back and I kinda alluded to it too. The med schools that admit students that don't take the MCAT are most likely in a post-bacc or EAP or BS/MD that these specific med schools have a linkage with. They know that super high grades in the curriculum these students are taking will translate in med school success, in which case, the MCAT isn't needed to standardize their college performance. Does that mean then that anyone with high grades in college should be able to skip the MCAT and just apply and be accepted to their college's home medical school? Sure why not. But most people aren't going to be applying to one med school anyway so in which case you'll have to take the MCAT, and if your college has hundreds of pre-med kids competing for 150 spots in medical school, plus all the other applicants from other colleges applying too, then maybe a high MCAT may be something that can make you stand out.

 

[Med Ed]

Johns Hopkins offers a program where if you do well, there is no need for the MCAT, and you can get admitted to ivy league MD programs.

Link?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@gonnif already explained it a couple of posts back and I kinda alluded to it too. The med schools that admit students that don't take the MCAT are most likely in a post-bacc or EAP or BS/MD that these specific med schools have a linkage with. They know that super high grades in the curriculum these students are taking will translate in med school success, in which case, the MCAT isn't needed to standardize their college performance. Does that mean then that anyone with high grades in college should be able to skip the MCAT and just apply and be accepted to their college's home medical school? Sure why not. But most people aren't going to be applying to one med school anyway so in which case you'll have to take the MCAT, and if your college has hundreds of pre-med kids competing for 150 spots in medical school, plus all the other applicants from other colleges applying too, then maybe a high MCAT may be something that can make you stand out.

Yeah, and I said that those programs make sense. But clearly there are at least a couple that take students from other schools without the MCAT (though it seems like there are only a couple).

 

[Gibbward]

Ah gotcha yeah well med schools are free to decide admissions however they want. I mean if we're talking about risks, a 4.0 college student is probably more likely to do fine in med school than those with a lower GPA. If a med school feels comfortable taking that chance on a few students in their class, then more power to them.

At the end of the day, I think the MCAT does it's job fine as a general equalizer. It may screen out some students with high GPAs, but it also gives a chance to those with lower GPAs.