Only Waitlists - What to do?

[Medschoolripperoo]

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Hey all, just looking for some general advice. To my surprise I ended up with 3 II this cycle and was not expecting any (lowish GPA in the 3.5X range and 513 MCAT). ECs are pretty average with a bit of a redflag with starting the majority of my volunteering a few months prior to volunteering -- had great patient exposure prior to this though and I have a great gap-year job, which unfortunately isn't on my primary because I started it after submission.

I know it wasn't my interviewing skills and as far as I'm aware my LORs are fine and I'm quite confident in my essays, so I'm assuming it is my ECs and subpar GPA holding my application back.

So, my real question is what to do at this point to maximize the chances of getting off of the waitlist. Is it better to provide frequent updates to show continued interest, or a big update + LOI right before traffic day?

Obviously through all of this I will be working on bettering my application for the chance that I reapply, but I'm hoping that I can make it off 1 of the 3 waitlists.

Any advise is helpful!

 

[Goro]

Hey all, just looking for some general advice. To my surprise I ended up with 3 II this cycle and was not expecting any (lowish GPA in the 3.5X range and 513 MCAT). ECs are pretty average with a bit of a redflag with starting the majority of my volunteering a few months prior to volunteering -- had great patient exposure prior to this though and I have a great gap-year job, which unfortunately isn't on my primary because I started it after submission.

I know it wasn't my interviewing skills and as far as I'm aware my LORs are fine and I'm quite confident in my essays, so I'm assuming it is my ECs and subpar GPA holding my application back.

So, my real question is what to do at this point to maximize the chances of getting off of the waitlist. Is it better to provide frequent updates to show continued interest, or a big update + LOI right before traffic day?

Obviously through all of this I will be working on bettering my application for the chance that I reapply, but I'm hoping that I can make it off 1 of the 3 waitlists.

Any advise is helpful!

The only thing that will work will be to send a seven figure donation check.

Updates unlikely to work unless the schools are those that like to see people grovel, or are needy.

But they'll see I'm interested!

They know you're interested because you sent them an app and they interviewed you.

Best to work on improving your app, and interview skills.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

The only thing that will work will be to send a seven figure donation check.

Updates unlikely to work unless the schools are those that like to see people grovel, or are needy.

But they'll see I'm interested!

They know you're interested because you sent them an app and they interviewed you.

Best to work on improving your app, and interview skills.

Appreciate the input. I understand that in general updates and LOI are seen to be quite pointless, but I'm expecting to have some significant things happening in the next few months (possible publication and other big updates, plus I can update with the over 1200 hours of experience from my gap-year job and the achievements I have accomplished here so far).

I know we are often bad at judging how our own interviews went, but I'm quite confident that was not the issue since that has always been my strong point for jobs and I was told my mock-interviewers that I was a strong interviewer, but again I understand that the way an ADCOM perceived what I said could always be different.

Anecdotally it seems that the people that get off waitlists are always the ones that claim they bugged the schools with updates, so I was curious if anyone had a strategy for approaching these situations.

 

[Goro]

Appreciate the input. I understand that in general updates and LOI are seen to be quite pointless, but I'm expecting to have some significant things happening in the next few months (possible publication and other big updates, plus I can update with the over 1200 hours of experience from my gap-year job and the achievements I have accomplished here so far).

I know we are often bad at judging how our own interviews went, but I'm quite confident that was not the issue since that has always been my strong point for jobs and I was told my mock-interviewers that I was a strong interviewer, but again I understand that the way an ADCOM perceived what I said could always be different.

Anecdotally it seems that the people that get off waitlists are always the ones that claim they bugged the schools with updates, so I was curious if anyone had a strategy for approaching these situations.

Correlation =/= causation.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

Correlation =/= causation.

True, but the same could be argued for the opposing side that anecdotally you have a worse chance if you do nothing. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd rather be active rather than passive and be strategic about how I approach this, so I was hoping to hear how others have handled similar situations. These schools have all clearly states that they want updates, otherwise I would agree with you.

 

[aymar]

It is November, take a deep breath. You shouldn't be sending them anything at all at this stage, unless it is a significant update (publication, etc.) to schools that have said they accept updates.

 

[878956]

True, but the same could be argued for the opposing side that anecdotally you have a worse chance if you do nothing. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd rather be active rather than passive and be strategic about how I approach this, so I was hoping to hear how others have handled similar situations. These schools have all clearly states that they want updates, otherwise I would agree with you.

I think you should submit a LOI and interests letter in the next coming weeks. It doesn’t hurt to try.

I would send an update expressing interests in the next coming weeks.

Another update if you get a publication or something interesting


An LOI to the school you would prefer to matriculate into.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

It is November, take a deep breath. You shouldn't be sending them anything at all at this stage, unless it is a significant update (publication, etc.) to schools that have said they accept updates.

I agree, I was wondering what the best timing is, or if it is better to break things up if I have 2 significant updates (i.e. is it better to have 2 equally significant updates spread out to show continued interest or 1 fat update before traffic day). Wasn't considering any updates until probably ~February at the earliest, but I was trying to have a gameplan based on others previous success.

 

[chemdoctor]

Correlation =/= causation.

To quote my professor... “CONFOUNDING VARIABLES”!

 

[Goro]

True, but the same could be argued for the opposing side that anecdotally you have a worse chance if you do nothing. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd rather be active rather than passive and be strategic about how I approach this, so I was hoping to hear how others have handled similar situations. These schools have all clearly states that they want updates, otherwise I would agree with you.

Multiple Adcoms on SDN tell us that the bolded is the case.

How would you interpret a nonbinding promise from a desperate applicant?

Here’s one Adcom member’s thoughts on the matter:

“We only invite amazing students to interview. It is quite unlikely that further good deeds or achievements will have an effect since only the students who have already wowed us are interviewed.”


“One serious thought for a moment. You want to become a physician, a profession that highly values ethical behavior. Yet even before you start training for this profession, you want take the unethical act of making promises to two different schools that you will attend over any other school?” -gonnif

From the wise Med Ed: [What med schools…] accept and desire are two different things. My institution, for instance, will accept practically anything a given applicant wants to forward along, but only rarely do we consider it a worthwhile addition to the package.

And yes, some of us have gotten a little jaded about LOI's. I could fill a barrel with all the post-interview correspondence I have received that has not translated into a single matriculant. This has all gotten mighty complicated and burdensome for what is essentially a zero sum game.

It's generally not burdensome for an applicant to upload something to the portal, and once in a great while it does tip us off with some useful info. I can think of one individual who had a stellar application, like Harvard/Yale/Stanford-worthy, and a superb interview, who sent us several updates and a LOI. We were somewhat perplexed by this person's tenacious interest in our program. Turns out there were family/geographical reasons behind the whole thing, the applicant just never felt comfortable directly playing that card.

When it comes down to waitlist time I will scan through what folks have uploaded post-interview. The vast majority of times it has no impact. Occasionally I have seen it hurt people's chances. Come to think of it, in my experience this is probably more likely, than such correspondence having a positive impact.

See the following for classic examples of why most Admissions deans treat these as lies.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/loi-and-interviews.1252832/#post-18849958

I told a school I'd go if accepted, now not so sure

And if you still don’t believe me, read these:

HomeSkool's Guide to Letters of Intent

Second letter of intent? Help!

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

Multiple Adcoms on SDN tell us that the bolded is the case.

How would you interpret a nonbinding promise from a desperate applicant?

Here’s one Adcom member’s thoughts on the matter:

“We only invite amazing students to interview. It is quite unlikely that further good deeds or achievements will have an effect since only the students who have already wowed us are interviewed.”


“One serious thought for a moment. You want to become a physician, a profession that highly values ethical behavior. Yet even before you start training for this profession, you want take the unethical act of making promises to two different schools that you will attend over any other school?” -gonnif

From the wise Med Ed: [What med schools…] accept and desire are two different things. My institution, for instance, will accept practically anything a given applicant wants to forward along, but only rarely do we consider it a worthwhile addition to the package.

And yes, some of us have gotten a little jaded about LOI's. I could fill a barrel with all the post-interview correspondence I have received that has not translated into a single matriculant. This has all gotten mighty complicated and burdensome for what is essentially a zero sum game.

It's generally not burdensome for an applicant to upload something to the portal, and once in a great while it does tip us off with some useful info. I can think of one individual who had a stellar application, like Harvard/Yale/Stanford-worthy, and a superb interview, who sent us several updates and a LOI. We were somewhat perplexed by this person's tenacious interest in our program. Turns out there were family/geographical reasons behind the whole thing, the applicant just never felt comfortable directly playing that card.

When it comes down to waitlist time I will scan through what folks have uploaded post-interview. The vast majority of times it has no impact. Occasionally I have seen it hurt people's chances. Come to think of it, in my experience this is probably more likely, than such correspondence having a positive impact.

See the following for classic examples of why most Admissions deans treat these as lies.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/loi-and-interviews.1252832/#post-18849958

I told a school I'd go if accepted, now not so sure

And if you still don’t believe me, read these:

HomeSkool's Guide to Letters of Intent

Second letter of intent? Help!

I was referring more-so to updates to show interest, I understand the stigma against LOIs and probably would only send one if it was combined with a significant update possibly showing how I would be a good fit for the school or something along those lines. I just find it odd that the schools would explicitly state that they want updates of they were not receptive to them or would even view them negatively?

 

[Goro]

I was referring more-so to updates to show interest, I understand the stigma against LOIs and probably would only send one if it was combined with a significant update possibly showing how I would be a good fit for the school or something along those lines. I just find it odd that the schools would explicitly state that they want updates of they were not receptive to them or would even view them negatively?

Most people's updates are worthless, and again, the schools know you're interested because you sent them an app. If you applied to Jefferson, Gtown or Mayo, send them updates, because they're needy.

If you got an interview, they already thought that you were a good fit, at least until you interviewed. That might have convinced them otherwise.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

Most people's updates are worthless, and again, the schools know you're interested because you sent them an app. If you applied to Jefferson, Gtown or Mayo, send them updates, because they're needy.

If you got an interview, they already thought that you were a good fit, at least until you interviewed. That might have convinced them otherwise.

If it really was the interview wouldn't that more likely than not lead to a rejection? Maybe I'm mistaken on that, but I imagine if I really disappointed in person they wouldn't want me at all and that the issue was probably that my interview just wasn't good enough to overcome my deficits and/or there was not a unanimous decision.

 

[Blanky]

This is strange. My interview mentioned that they accept 2 updates. I assumed If I sent an update after fall grades came in they would get 18 credits of 4.0 updated and an LOI. This is assuming I get Waitlisted this week. My cGPA and sGPA are above 3.8 so I guess I understand the logic that it's redundant.

 

[precisiongraphic]

If it really was the interview wouldn't that more likely than not lead to a rejection? Maybe I'm mistaken on that, but I imagine if I really disappointed in person they wouldn't want me at all and that the issue was probably that my interview just wasn't good enough to overcome my deficits and/or there was not a unanimous decision.

I would caution you not to assume that it wasn't your interviewing and continue to work on interview skills. An interview is a chance to close the deal, to sell your candidacy. That you've ended up only with waitlists 3-for-3 means that perhaps you didn't do enough to move your application into the accept pile. @LizzyM has a stair-step analogy in which an interview will allow some students to move up a step or two and others to move down. Given that all applicants are considered acceptable to be interviewed, some will make the interviews into a reason to accept while others won't. Just food for thought.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

I would caution you not to assume that it wasn't your interviewing and continue to work on interview skills. An interview is a chance to close the deal, to sell your candidacy. That you've ended up only with waitlists 3-for-3 means that perhaps you didn't do enough to move your application into the accept pile. @LizzyM has a stair-step analogy in which an interview will allow some students to move up a step or two and others to move down. Given that all applicants are considered acceptable to be interviewed, some will make the interviews into a reason to accept while others won't. Just food for thought.

I understand the analogy, but I'm pretty sure my application was pretty low to begin with. As I stated I do have redflags regarding "box-checking" with my volunteering (these were mission-based schools, 2 of which were state schools, so that probably is part of the issue) and my GPA doesn't really have a great trend either.

I'm sure there is always something I can do better regarding interviewing, but I'm not entirely sure what I would work on since every mock interview I did with advisers told me that I was excellent in that regard and in previous jobs I did I was told that my interview was what got me the position.

 

[LizzyM]

Hey all, just looking for some general advice. To my surprise I ended up with 3 II this cycle and was not expecting any (lowish GPA in the 3.5X range and 513 MCAT). ECs are pretty average with a bit of a redflag with starting the majority of my volunteering a few months prior to volunteering -- had great patient exposure prior to this though and I have a great gap-year job, which unfortunately isn't on my primary because I started it after submission.

I know it wasn't my interviewing skills and as far as I'm aware my LORs are fine and I'm quite confident in my essays, so I'm assuming it is my ECs and subpar GPA holding my application back.

So, my real question is what to do at this point to maximize the chances of getting off of the waitlist. Is it better to provide frequent updates to show continued interest, or a big update + LOI right before traffic day?

Obviously through all of this I will be working on bettering my application for the chance that I reapply, but I'm hoping that I can make it off 1 of the 3 waitlists.

Any advise is helpful!

I'm not sure why 3 schools would "waste" interviews on you if they thought that your application "on paper" was sub-par. They thought enough of you to invite you to interview but you didn't close the deal. Think about that.. also consider that the cycle is young and some schools may go to the waitlist so bide your time. The school knows that you are interested because you have not withdrawn your application. Unless they are one of the school Goro has identified as "needing attention", don't waste your time, and the school's time, with updates.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

I'm not sure why 3 schools would "waste" interviews on you if they thought that your application "on paper" was sub-par. They thought enough of you to invite you to interview but you didn't close the deal. Think about that.. also consider that the cycle is young and some schools may go to the waitlist so bide your time. The school knows that you are interested because you have not withdrawn your application. Unless they are one of the school Goro has identified as "needing attention", don't waste your time, and the school's time, with updates.

I'm not denying that I could have done something wrong, I'm just not entirely sure what I could have done wrong or what I could have done better in the interview to be honest. Is there a list compiled somewhere of common mistakes interviewees make?

And maybe I'm just trying to self-justify why I wasn't able to secure an acceptance, but maybe they saw something and hoped that I would "wow" them with an interview and I wasn't able to do that apparently, so they think I'd be a good fit but that I'm just not competitive enough to be given an outright acceptance.

 

[precisiongraphic]

And maybe I'm just trying to self-justify why I wasn't able to secure an acceptance, but maybe they saw something and hoped that I would "wow" them with an interview and I wasn't able to do that apparently, so they think I'd be a good fit but that I'm just not competitive enough to be given an outright acceptance.

That may be it.

The other thing is that this is the first year under the new AMCAS rules where schools won't be able to see acceptances and schools - on average -may be issuing more waitlists especially so early in the cycle. So have hope and work on things that you can work on - volunteering hours, interviewing skills and try not to worry about things you can't control.

 

[deleted851433]

I was a person who got waitlisted one year at one school and waitlisted at my current school the next year. 1st day of waitlist movement at my current school I got in. It's not as ideal as getting accepted, it's nerve wracking, but as others have mentioned the good news is you're good enough and you still have a shot. They wouldn't waitlist you if you weren't good enough because waitlist still means you have a chance of being admitted and they're not going to chance admitting someone they don't think is good enough. It is true that it gets more competitive every year so work on your resume in the meantime & prepare to apply next cycle. If your job is clinically related try to get as many hours as you can get - this can help build your professional character and give you a bit of wow factor when you say I've worked "x" amount of hours in health care. Find clinical volunteering you are passionate about and be consistent with it. Do more shadowing. Another thing I did was to boost my GPA a little I took a postbac class in a biology subject (micro) I didn't have a chance to take before graduation that I was interested in and got an A. If you don't get in it's a chance to come back to the interview cycle a better, more polished, experienced & passionate applicant and previous interview experience will hopefully make you more confident in the process.

 

[chemdoctor]

To add to what @doctorsaurusrex (cool
Username) said, you can do all those things and being on a waitlist isn’t something to be ashamed or feel bad about. If they Totally didn’t think you’re a fit, they would’ve rejected you.

I was just talking to @Goro about this earlier today, the reapplicant stigma is just SDN hype. Plenty of people do better the second time around. Heck some people get in on their fourth app cycle. Your GPA isn’t terrible and your MCAT is pretty damn good. Stay focused. If you don’t get in this cycle, continue to ameliorate your application and come back better next cycle. As the above stated, you already have interview experience now!

 

[mariposas905]

I'm not sure why 3 schools would "waste" interviews on you if they thought that your application "on paper" was sub-par. They thought enough of you to invite you to interview but you didn't close the deal. Think about that.. also consider that the cycle is young and some schools may go to the waitlist so bide your time. The school knows that you are interested because you have not withdrawn your application. Unless they are one of the school Goro has identified as "needing attention", don't waste your time, and the school's time, with updates.

How do we know if the school is one that likes attention in the form of updates?

 

[LizzyM]

How do we know if the school is one that likes attention in the form of updates?

I think that they will tell you at the interview.

 

[Goro]

To add to what @doctorsaurusrex (cool
Username) said, you can do all those things and being on a waitlist isn’t something to be ashamed or feel bad about. If they Totally didn’t think you’re a fit, they would’ve rejected you.

I was just talking to @Goro about this earlier today, the reapplicant stigma is just SDN hype. Plenty of people do better the second time around. Heck some people get in on their fourth app cycle. Your GPA isn’t terrible and your MCAT is pretty damn good. Stay focused. If you don’t get in this cycle, continue to ameliorate your application and come back better next cycle. As the above stated, you already have interview experience now!

Just keep in mind that one of the most common mistakes applicants make is to reapply too soon. Multiple medical schools warn you against doing this. We have only reapply when they have an improved application

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

Just keep in mind that one of the most common mistakes applicants make is to reapply too soon. Multiple medical schools warn you against doing this. We have only reapply when they have an improved application

Understandable. All of my "red flags" regarding ECs should all be covered assuming I have to reapply. Maybe the smartest move is to still add another year to have a "perfect" application, but my MCAT would expire, and I'm not too confident I could perform better than I did, so my only option would be to reapply right away.

Question - if one is waitlisted is it considered okay to ask for feedback as to why you were waitlisted to work specifically on that deficit, or is feedback only given at the end of a cycle?

 

[Goro]

Understandable. All of my "red flags" regarding ECs should all be covered assuming I have to reapply. Maybe the smartest move is to still add another year to have a "perfect" application, but my MCAT would expire, and I'm not too confident I could perform better than I did, so my only option would be to reapply right away.

Question - if one is waitlisted is it considered okay to ask for feedback as to why you were waitlisted to work specifically on that deficit, or is feedback only given at the end of a cycle?

I always recommend asking for feedback on the rejections. The worst the schools will do not tell you anything.

 

[Medschoolripperoo]

I always recommend asking for feedback on the rejections. The worst the schools will do not tell you anything.

Would you advise against asking the schools that I am waitlisted at for feedback to actively work on though to improve my chances of being a "better" applicant by the time traffic day comes?

Most of my Rs were pre-II and they stated they do not provide individual feedback.

 

[Goro]

Would you advise against asking the schools that I am waitlisted at for feedback to actively work on though to improve my chances of being a "better" applicant by the time traffic day comes?

Most of my Rs were pre-II and they stated they do not provide individual feedback.

Nope. Hope for the best, but Wait for rejections.

The risk right now is that you come off as needy and desperate.

There is very little you can do now to make yourself a better candidate while on the wait list, especially if your interview skills were at fault.