Open discussion/thoughts concerning URM as a criteria

[BlackDr2b]

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Thinking about Tuskegee hurts everyone I would imagine or should if they're a decent person. Or any atrocity for that matter. But where does anyone get off blaming everyone of that particular race for the actions of a few? How long do we continue to say it is acceptable to blame people for that?

Its not even about forgive and forget anymore. It's about projecting how you feel about a few people on everyone that resembles them. Where is the bigotry?

I think a big problem with this country is we readily group ourselves into distinct factions with minimal interaction between them. An interracial couple for example is often given funny looks by both sides. If we continue to do this artificial grouping then we will always be that way. By supporting the Medical Schools wish to make a groupings of URMs we are perpetuating the artificial grouping and we will never be one.

I completely agree with this statement. You are right we don't interact with other people at all, but that is where the problem is also. Because people in this country tend to stay around people that look like them, they feel comfortable in all areas with people who look like them. In a dream world everybody will interact with everybody and we won't have to worry about these kind of problems. But right here right now, this is not the case.

I don't think people are blamming a whole race for what happened. People know that certain people were just ignorant. But the problem is that there are still those kind of ignorant people practicing medicine and they bring their ignorant views into the room and treat their patient with their ignorant ways. This is why people choose to go to someone who looks like them. The chances of them having to deal with this kind of ignorance is slim to none.

We are not prepetuating grouping by supporting med schools, I think med schools are trying to get people who will help the disparities out there, I think they are trying to get qualified people who they know the underserved will trust and have confidence in. The med schools are getting qualified people who can change the quality of care in the underserved.

 

[Rotinaj1985]

but again, you can't use the way a few people mistreat people whom you identify with as a way of mistrusting everyone of that group.
If that is an acceptable way to live, the list of people/groups that I don't trust would include (but not limited to): Men with hair sticking out of the top two buttons of their shirt, men that wear tank tops, women who attach leashes to their kids and then go sking down a mountain.

I agree there is a difference in that it appears to be more systematic but it is still inappropriate to place blame so easily on innocent people. People, like me, who have no idea who (what?) Jena 6 or Genarlow Wilson are.

 

[Rotinaj1985]

I completely agree with this statement. You are right we don't interact with other people at all, but that is where the problem is also. Because people in this country tend to stay around people that look like them, they feel comfortable in all areas with people who look like them. In a dream world everybody will interact with everybody and we won't have to worry about these kind of problems. But right here right now, this is not the case.

I don't think people are blamming a whole race for what happened. People know that certain people were just ignorant. But the problem is that there are still those kind of ignorant people practicing medicine and they bring their ignorant views into the room and treat their patient with their ignorant ways. This is why people choose to go to someone who looks like them. The chances of them having to deal with this kind of ignorance is slim to none.

We are not prepetuating grouping by supporting med schools, I think med schools are trying to get people who will help the disparities out there, I think they are trying to get qualified people who they know the underserved will trust and have confidence in. The med schools are getting qualified people who can change the quality of care in the underserved.

I agree the chances of prejudice are slim to none when you go to a doctor that looks like you. But at the same time I would never advocate just walking into a random doctor's office and saying this is my doctor. There should be quite a bit of research that goes into making your choice of a doctor. Now, this is obviously not possible with an emergency situation, but the bulk of the time you have ample opportunity to research your doctor (if you have insurance) and choose the right one. And if you go to a doctor that you find, for some reason or another, isn't right, you move on.

 

[BlackDr2b]

but again, you can't use the way a few people mistreat people whom you identify with as a way of mistrusting everyone of that group.
If that is an acceptable way to live, the list of people/groups that I don't trust would include (but not limited to): Men with hair sticking out of the top two buttons of their shirt, men that wear tank tops, women who attach leashes to their kids and then go sking down a mountain.

I agree there is a difference in that it appears to be more systematic but it is still inappropriate to place blame so easily on innocent people. People, like me, who have no idea who (what?) Jena 6 or Genarlow Wilson are.

We are not saying that it is you or every person in a particular race, we are just saying that those kind of people are still out there and racism is still alive and kicking. The people who are still in charge for the most part are the people who still have these ignorant ways. It really sucks for everybody. But because people know these kind of people are still in charge, stillpracticing medicine, or whatever, it makes it hard for people to trust them.

Racism isn't blatently out there like it used to be, althouogh sometimes it is. I can speak for California and say that racism is hidden and you might not think it is there and then all of a sudden boom, you get slapped in the face by it. People don't know who they can trust from other races because people try to hide and conceal their racist ways, but people know they can trust people who look like them.

I'm sure you are a cool person cuz we can sit here and have a discussion and you haven't made not one foul comment and I appreciate that, so thank you. I just wish there was more people like you out in the world.

 

[just thoughts]

Thinking about Tuskegee hurts everyone I would imagine or should if they're a decent person. Or any atrocity for that matter. But where does anyone get off blaming everyone of that particular race for the actions of a few? How long do we continue to say it is acceptable to blame people for that?

Its not even about forgive and forget anymore. It's about projecting how you feel about a few people on everyone that resembles them. Where is the bigotry?

I think a big problem with this country is we readily group ourselves into distinct factions with minimal interaction between them. An interracial couple for example is often given funny looks by both sides. If we continue to do this artificial grouping then we will always be that way. By supporting the Medical Schools wish to make a groupings of URMs we are perpetuating the artificial grouping and we will never be one.

I think that this conversation is really starting to get to the heart of the issue. This thread was intended to focus (I think) on how race and issues associated with race have apparently "altered" the medical school application process, but the problem is larger than that. Our social world still struggles with race, and doesn't necessarily do it in a way that works well for everyone involved. So yes, some of the distrust is specific to how people have been treated by some physicians - past and present. Some of it carries over from other aspects of our social lives, and Flaahless gave two really good examples.

 

[Rotinaj1985]

So everyone can feel that this thread made some good I am going to change my position, or at least clarify it.

While I am against the use of URM as an admissions criteria. I can see its value. I believe it is a band-aid for the incredible wound the past has left on America. I agree with the previous poster that as physicians (future ones anyway, with silver suits and gadgets) our primary goal is to ensure access to health care. It is, however, our duty outside of the health care scene to act as socially conscious and responsible people to promote equality and understanding, and to teach the future generations to progress further, and eliminate bigotry wherever it is and one way we can do this in the hospital is by making a conscious effort to be more understanding and to lead by example.

 

[Bond8204]

it's well-intentioned but unfair and oft abused... but it is the way it is so who cares.

I didn't read the thread...have I summed up the debate well?

 

[Raoul9]

it's well-intentioned but unfair and oft abused... but it is the way it is so who cares.

I didn't read the thread...have I summed up the debate well?

LOL. Actually, yes, you have. And the terseness of your summary avoids issues of misunderstanding and finger-pointing that have largely clouded the issue. Well put.

(Though I would personally be more conservative and say that the system is *potentially* abused; we must have faith that the adcoms understand the situation and are executing their mandate with fairness.)

 

[Taliesinrk]

We are not saying that it is you or every person in a particular race, we are just saying that those kind of people are still out there and racism is still alive and kicking.

So condemn the entire race for the actions of a few?

The people who are still in charge for the most part are the people who still have these ignorant ways.

I believe this to be far from correct.

People don't know who they can trust from other races because people try to hide and conceal their racist ways, but people know they can trust people who look like them.

That is the definition of reverse racism. You are judging a person based on the color of their skin... isn't this how the problem started in the first place?

 

[Lokhtar]

So condemn the entire race for the actions of a few?

No one is doing that. What is happening is that there is a move to try to make sure different views and backgrounds are represented at all levels of medicine, to not only better the health of the nation, but to make sure things move forward in the right direction. The fact that there was no one to represent the interests of the various communities is the reason why the atrocities happened in the past, and still happen to a lesser degree.

 

[Taliesinrk]

No one is doing that. What is happening is that there is a move to try to make sure different views and backgrounds are represented at all levels of medicine, to not only better the health of the nation, but to make sure things move forward in the right direction. The fact that there was no one to represent the interests of the various communities is the reason why the atrocities happened in the past, and still happen to a lesser degree.

I hear what you're saying, but I believe this is what blackdr2be was saying. With his statement, he infers that he knows he can trust black people, but is unsure as to whether or not he can trust whites. I'm not commenting on whether or not this is true, rather that by using this criteria, he is treating an entire race of people based upon the actions of a certain few individuals from said race. He is acting a certain way toward an individual directly because of skin color. This is, IMO, is condemning that race, and is certainly the definition of racism.

 

[riceman04]

First off, this is an absolutely excellent point. But, in reality, I'm under the impression that most schools have a tuition/loan forgiveness program if you're going into FP or rural practice.

I really appreciate how well the discussion has gone - some great points have been made.

Originally Posted by Crixivan
If they really wanted doctors to go out and practice in underserved communities, then they would drop the tuition so that disadvantaged students wouldn't be pressured to choose higher paying specialties to make their money back.

Yeah...but that statement is almost utilitarianistic (if that is even a word...LOL).

 

[riceman04]

but isn't it true that many of the URM applicants do NOT come from a different type of community than a non-URM?

anecdotal evidence is evil. That is why it is never allowed in the court of law or on the debate floor...because it is useless!

People make that horrible asumption for the sake of bouying (hahaha spelled wrong...I'm no Akilah...that's for sure) their sinking argument

 

[riceman04]

I imagine it would be hard to forget if that stuff actually happened to you.
You just don't see Asians worried about concentration camps in California, although that happened. You don't see Jewish People cringe whenever they meet a person with a German last name. You never hear Native Americans grumbling about Small Pox blankets.

👎

Typical...but then again you are looking from the outside in...so I really cannot blame you for providing that prospective. It is quite evident there is a deep mistrust of physicians within the Afr. Amer. community.

The next time you are in an environment where you have the opportunity to interact with a number of black amer. patients/people/etc...allow yourself to become truly involved in attempting to get to know them.

best of luck to you

 

[riceman04]

That stuff happened to you?

Have you had HIPPA training?

 

[riceman04]

Ok, so we're agreed, every race gets to play a race card based on some mistreatment that happened to their ancestor. I'm going to play the irish card because my great grandfather couldn't find a real job and so had to work as a Coal miner. From which he got lung cancer.

yeah...ummmm...can you please explain the point of this semi-rant.

 

[derArzt]

I hear what you're saying, but I believe this is what blackdr2be was saying. With his statement, he infers that he knows he can trust black people, but is unsure as to whether or not he can trust whites. I'm not commenting on whether or not this is true, rather that by using this criteria, he is treating an entire race of people based upon the actions of a certain few individuals from said race. He is acting a certain way toward an individual directly because of skin color. This is, IMO, is condemning that race, and is certainly the definition of racism.

Exactly my thoughts.
Although blackdr2be makes some excellent points, I feel as though he is in fact showing reverse-racism (not with a bad intent, but still wrong).
Example, an African-American stole my friends car, but I don't go locking my doors quickly when I see one.

To those who say the qualifications are the same:
Is it just a coincidence the average GPA/MCATs for URM are lower than non? If they don't mean anything as far as how good of a physician someone will be, then should they even be considered?

 

[flaahless]

To those who say the qualifications are the same:
Is it just a coincidence the average GPA/MCATs for URM are lower than non? If they don't mean anything as far as how good of a physician someone will be, then should they even be considered?

There is so much more to that stat, please don't look at it at face value.

 

[derArzt]

There is so much more to that stat, please don't look at it at face value.

Well your explanation is welcome then 🙂

 

[derArzt]

There is so much more to that stat, please don't look at it at face value.

And I apologize for the *****s that posted those rude comments in your profile. You must be one hell of an interview.

 

[skinnylindsay]

Skin color aside, I think another reason that patients might want to be treated by physicians that resemble them is for the cultural similarities. If a physician has a better understanding of their patients' cultures, it allows them to better understand how their actions, diets, views on life etc... are affecting their health. Telling a person to stop doing/eating something because they choose to vs. something that is deeply ingrained in their culture would be received in two completely different ways. By creating a more diverse classroom experience, med students would hopefully pick up things about the cultures of their peers. They could then use this information in treating patients of different ethnic groups.

Just a thought.

 

[Maxprime]

Skin color aside, I think another reason that patients might want to be treated by physicians that resemble them is for the cultural similarities. If a physician has a better understanding of their patients' cultures, it allows them to better understand how their actions, diets, views on life etc... are affecting their health. Telling a person to stop doing/eating something because they choose to vs. something that is deeply ingrained in their culture would be received in two completely different ways. By creating a more diverse classroom experience, med students would hopefully pick up things about the cultures of their peers. They could then use this information in treating patients of different ethnic groups.

Just a thought.

While I agree that it is important to be aware of cultural differences, telling someone they need to cut fried chicken, pizza, etc. out of their diet b/c their culture supposedly eats a lot of that is pretty offensive.

More generally, it's important to know about different cultures - but not assume things about your patients based on their skin color.

Interesting tangent - if a patient said they would be more comfortable with a physician of a different ethnic background, would you oblige?

 

[Jolie South]

While I agree that it is important to be aware of cultural differences, telling someone they need to cut fried chicken, pizza, etc. out of their diet b/c their culture supposedly eats a lot of that is pretty offensive.

I don't know skinnylindsay, but that's not what I took her post to mean. I think it was to point out that understanding a culture's traditions will make you more aware of where 'risky' behaviors are coming from, what you as a physician need to be looking for, and what interventions might be applicable.

not . . . so you could say "hey miss thang stop eating that church's" or some other such stereotypical nonsense.

by the way, this is the same approach that public health uses in planning projects and targeting behavior change. knowing that a certain behavior occurs/does not occur is useless without the knowledge of why.

 

[Taliesinrk]

Have you had HIPPA training?

Unfortunately, more than once. I guess I'm ignorant/ too tired to read back to what I made the comment on, but what does that have to do with the discussion?

 

[Rotinaj1985]

yeah...ummmm...can you please explain the point of this semi-rant.

I love rants.

Aside from that, the point was in context to the argument that it is acceptable (or maybe just understandable?) that african american's mistrust white physicians because of what may have happened to their family, or more likely to their neighbor's cousin's mother's second aunt's and so on and so on.

I was pointing out that everyone, if we allow it, could have some slight that happened to someone in their race that was perpetrated by the member of another race.

 

[BlackDr2b]

I love rants.

Aside from that, the point was in context to the argument that it is acceptable (or maybe just understandable?) that african american's mistrust white physicians because of what may have happened to their family, or more likely to their neighbor's cousin's mother's second aunt's and so on and so on.

I was pointing out that everyone, if we allow it, could have some slight that happened to someone in their race that was perpetrated by the member of another race.

I think your comment might stem back to mine from earlier. I was simply trying to explain why it is that people feel more comfortable with someone who looks like them, that's all.

 

[t-funk]

These threads are always very interesting to me but I try not to post in them bc, for one, they make me too mad, and two, I don't really feel qualified to have a discussion about it bc I did not have the life of a URM and really do not know first hand the daily prejudices faced by the typical URM. I do know, however, that of the 1000s of people I have known in my life, I have never known a wealthy URM but I have known plenty who were poor or struggling in the middle class. I oftentimes wonder where people are from where they say that the only people that they know who benefit from AA are URMS who were well-off to begin with bc I have yet to meet one.

My sister has 4 mixed children and by the time they were in the 1st grade, they were already being called racial slurs and coming home crying about it to my sister. That is also the year that my beautiful little niece decided that she was white and started telling everyone at school that she was white just to try to get them to stop with the comments. My nine year old nephew has already decided he hates school and only wants to do sports. My sister is scared about her kids' future and wants to move somewhere where her kids can have successful role models that they can relate to and who 'look like them'. There is just no one around here that looks like them and who is successful that they can model themselves after. I can totally understand the need for URM physicians to be placed in communities if only to be a role model for children like my nieces and nephews, let alone the other issues already discussed.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks that racism is a thing of the past is blinding themselves to it; probably on purpose. With regard to medical school admissions, I personally believe that schools should be aware of the inherent bias in America sociologically which gives non-URMs somewhat of an advantage throughout their entire life and should take that into account. There are more important things about a person and how they will relate to their future patients than their stats which include their background and the obstacles they have had to overcome in life.

Flaahless- It was really hard for me to read those comments on your profile but I'm really glad that you posted them so that other people can see some of the stuff you have had to deal with in this admissions cycle and correlate it with a real person who has accomplished a lot. Congratulations, you deserve the acceptances!

 

[ChubbyChaser]

White ppl are at a disadvantage on the basketball court. If your white you better be 7 feet tall or shoot lights out.... lol

 

[skinnylindsay]

I don't know skinnylindsay, but that's not what I took her post to mean. I think it was to point out that understanding a culture's traditions will make you more aware of where 'risky' behaviors are coming from, what you as a physician need to be looking for, and what interventions might be applicable.

not . . . so you could say "hey miss thang stop eating that church's" or some other such stereotypical nonsense.

by the way, this is the same approach that public health uses in planning projects and targeting behavior change. knowing that a certain behavior occurs/does not occur is useless without the knowledge of why.

This is exactly what I meant 🙂

 

[spazzz]

White ppl are at a disadvantage on the basketball court. If your white you better be 7 feet tall or shoot lights out.... lol

like every other person on the court. there are plenty of amazing white and black basketball players.

 

[Taliesinrk]

like every other person on the court. there are plenty of amazing white and black basketball players.

plenty more black (especially if you take percentages into account)...