optometrist to opthamologist

[traveljunky]

If someone becomes an optometrist and them would like to become an opthamologist would they have to attend 4 years of schooling again?

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[SarahNC]

yes.

 

[coppertopdoc]

4 years of medical school + 1 year internship + 3 years of ophthalmology residency (if you even match to ophthalmology) = 8 more years!

 

[IndianaOD]

If someone becomes an optometrist and them would like to become an opthamologist would they have to attend 4 years of schooling again?

Yup, biggest ripoff ever. Have to repeat all the identical science classes you took in OD school. This is why so many would like to follow the dentristy model and just have a 2-3 year residency after OD school.

 

[IndianaOD]

4 years of medical school + 1 year internship + 3 years of ophthalmology residency (if you even match to ophthalmology) = 8 more years!

For many of my MD friends the med school + internship actually was a little over 4 years real time. Not quite 5.

 

[KHE]

For many of my MD friends the med school + internship actually was a little over 4 years real time. Not quite 5.

I believe that many people on here appreciate that when we say "a year" we are referring to an academic year, not always a calendar year.

 

[IndianaOD]

I believe that many people on here appreciate that when we say "a year" we are referring to an academic year, not always a calendar year.

 

[billclinton]

Yup, biggest ripoff ever. Have to repeat all the identical science classes you took in OD school. This is why so many would like to follow the dentristy model and just have a 2-3 year residency after OD school.

MDs are held to higher standards and thus, the courses are much more rigorous. But, hey that is why the ophthalmologists make the big bucks.

 

[coppertopdoc]

MDs are held to higher standards and thus, the courses are much more rigorous. But, hey that is why the ophthalmologists make the big bucks.

I agree that they are held to higher standards in reference to surgical care, but as far as disease treatment and management that is not true.

If an OD gets sued they will have OMD expert witnesses that will say that the OD in question should be held to the same standard of care as the OMD's.

With our ability to manage most everything non-surgical I feel we should practice to that level!

 

[IndianaOD]

MDs are held to higher standards and thus, the courses are much more rigorous. But, hey that is why the ophthalmologists make the big bucks.

Hey big Willy, the courses aren't more rigerous. Well unless you know because you've taken all the physics intense optics courses and all the basic sciece courses that are identical to med school and often times taught by the same professors.

Its all memorization and regurgitation.

Flame ON!

Heck, my undergrad Immunology and Molecular Biology prof told us he gave the exact same lectures and tests to his med students. Guess who graduated #1 in the pre-med class there brainiac?

 

[coppertopdoc]

Cue flame war

No intent to do so!

I just wanted to point out the standard of care to which we are held.

 

[billclinton]

If an OD gets sued they will have OMD expert witnesses ...

Yes, the "expert witness" will be the OMD. There is a reason that is true... But, I agree, I recommend people go to an optometrist for most non-surgical issues (corrective lens, diabetes, glaucoma). However, I have found that there is a wider variety of the quality of optometrists out in practice compared to OMDs. So for myself, if I had to just randomly pick a eye doc to see, it would be an OMD, followed by an optometrist who has been private practice for 20+ years (but this stems from narcissism and wanting the best care available).

 

[KHE]

Yes, the "expert witness" will be the OMD. There is a reason that is true... But, I agree, I recommend people go to an optometrist for most non-surgical issues (corrective lens, diabetes, glaucoma). However, I have found that there is a wider variety of the quality of optometrists out in practice compared to OMDs. So for myself, if I had to just randomly pick a eye doc to see, it would be an OMD, followed by an optometrist who has been private practice for 20+ years (but this stems from narcissism and wanting the best care available).

It's hard to argue with most of this although I will say that we are starting to see more and more optometrists as expert witnesses during court proceedings.

 

[coppertopdoc]

Yes, the "expert witness" will be the OMD. There is a reason that is true... But, I agree, I recommend people go to an optometrist for most non-surgical issues (corrective lens, diabetes, glaucoma). However, I have found that there is a wider variety of the quality of optometrists out in practice compared to OMDs. So for myself, if I had to just randomly pick a eye doc to see, it would be an OMD, followed by an optometrist who has been private practice for 20+ years (but this stems from narcissism and wanting the best care available).

I'm with KHE, hard to argue with most of this. Although, I am not sure that you will get better care from an OD with 20+ years. There is greater chance that they haven't kept up with the latest studies, treatment protocols, etc..

I also agree with the sentiment of the variation in practice modalities. Having practiced with several OMD directly and had referral realtionships with OMD's it is my impression that the variability exists with them as well. Probably less apparent because of the ratio of OMD to OD.

 

[Oculomotor]

Hey President Clinton,

I just have to interject here being a student currently in a doctor of optometry program and I have to say that you are promoting the "stereotype" of 'medical school is tougher than anything else'. This is NOT true. I have tutored some of the DO students at my school in neuroanatomy and gross anatomy and I will tell you with conviction that the programs of OD, DO, and DMD have similar academic difficulty. The are just DIFFERENT! In the basic sciences the optometry and dental programs have to finish the material sooner and cover the important/essential aspects because we get BURIED with Theoretical Optics, Visual Optics, Physiological Optics, 2 YEARS of Ocular Disease Courses, 3 semesters of Pharmacology, all sorts of clinical optometry (I call these the "eye doctor" courses), etc...... Think about this, in 4 years an OD or DMD/DDS has to be a COMPETENT doctor to practice in their fields of optometry and dentistry respectively whereas a DO or MD graduate would not be able to do so without the residency. I took several classes the year before applying to OD school out of an MD program (with special permission) and I got a 3.7 average. Now granted the difficulty in med school lies in the VOLUME not the concepts! Conceptually there is nothing that my friend has in his DO school didactic curriculum that is as tough as the depth we go into the ocular/visual system. Hell I had to know 40 types of amacrine cells while memorizing and understanding the entire visual pathway from RPE to V5---it was ridiculous! What the med students learn about the visual/ocular system is kind of a joke to be honest. There is no body system that the DO's (same as MD's) cover that is in that depth-----they simply don't have the time to do that. They have an excellent GENERAL education whereas OD's and DDS's have a good general education and an excellent specialized education as well. I have a lot of respect for DO and MD programs but to make the erroneous statement that in 2008, they are more difficult than OD or DMD/DDS/DPM programs is egregious.

 

[eyestrain]

Good Lord, here we go again. "OD school is just as hard as med school." First of all, unless you've been through both, shut the hell up. Second, what's the point of this argument? Sure seems like a lame attempt to stroke our ego to me.

 

[billclinton]

Hey President Clinton,

Think about this, in 4 years an OD or DMD/DDS has to be a COMPETENT doctor to practice in their fields of optometry and dentistry respectively whereas a DO or MD graduate would not be able to do so without the residency.

Think about it this way: MD/DOs complete at least 12,000 hours of training before going into practice while ODs complete somewhere around 5000. Who would you trust your eyes to? After a few more years of study you will realize that that diseases and pathology of the eye are not only limited to the eye, but can be related to the whole body. This is why the extra training is of benefit.

 

[Oculomotor]

President Clinton,

No matter what anyone says the "MD mindset" is part of your MO. I could show you all the data in the world that OD's deliver the safest care when compared to MD's, DO's, DDS's, and DPM's regarding malpractice rates and it would be for naught. You and most of your MD counterparts have been indoctrinated to believe that there is one title on the top of the proverbial heap-->MD and everything else is secondary. This doesn't imply that you are not a nice guy or a good person but this argument with you is futile. We are all indoctrinated in our professional schools---we are told at my school that "the best primary eye doctors are OD's because we train so hard to be just that." I don't view OD's as better than MD's or vice versa we are just different. The MD Hubris is alive and well though and I see it all the time from subtle to overt (mostly subtle.) I can't wait to go toe to toe with them! (they had better watch out! LOL) I have been receiving eye care from OD's for over 20 years and like the "chairside manner", knowledge, and professionalism exhibited by them and trust them. Regarding systemic disease and ocular manifestations thereof, we receive plenty of training in that! We do not learn how to treat eye diseases in a vacuum!

 

[eyestrain]

Oculomotor,

ODs deliver safer care how? You're comparing apples and oranges. Please don't use malpractice rates as proof of anything. Done any intraocular surgery lately? Didn't think so.

 

[Ben Chudner]

The MD Hubris is alive and well though and I see it all the time from subtle to overt (mostly subtle.) I can't wait to go toe to toe with them! (they had better watch out! LOL)

This is exactly why most of the practicing OD's on this site believe that students have no real real frame of reference for discussing certain topics on this site. Toe to toe with them?? You need to step back for a moment and realize that in the real world, most OD's work very well with most OMD's. The students that post on this site from either profession have no clue what's it's like outside of school.

 

[Oculomotor]

Dr. Chundler,

I am well aware that OD's and OMD's work very well together in the real world. That doesn't mean that I don't see ( I am doing rotations) and hear from other students, and OD residents about times where they didn't! And what I said was a little tongue and cheek! But from a legislative standpoint----this is also the REAL WORLD, organized ophthalmology and medicine is not our friend hence the MD hubris!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I read and saw some pretty ugly stuff from OMD's in that arena.

 

[Oculomotor]

"All medical malpractice carriers are required by Federal law to report every malpractice payment made on behalf of healthcare providers to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). The NPDB has compiled cumulative data on malpractice payments since the program began in September 1990. The report is available on the NPDB Website and currently contains data on malpractice payments made for all classes of healthcare providers from September 1, 1990 through March 17, 2008, a total of 17 years, 7 months. This aggregate data is broken down into the number of payments by class of provider by state. Listed below are the total numbers of malpractice payments made by carriers over the past 17 years, 7 months for the independent doctoral-level provider groups who are authorized by the state legislatures to prescribe drugs.

Medical Physicians -----232,727
Osteopathic Physicians --14,733
Dentists------------------ 40,261
Podiatrists -----------------6,618
Optometrists -----------------580

This data, with only 580 reported malpractice payments made for optometrists in the past 17 years, 7 months, clearly shows the excellent, safe, and effective track record of the profession of optometry. How organized medicine can even hope to use a malpractice argument against legislation proposing to increase optometric scope of practice is hard to understand.
Malpractice insurance premiums for optometrists are, and remain, the lowest of any of the independent doctoral-level healthcare professions. These premium rates are lower than those paid by even some non-doctoral supervised allied health professions such as nurse practitioners and physician assistants."




Eyestrain,
I am not saying that OD's have the same level of liability as OMD's that would be erroneous.....Rather, what I am saying is that statistics point out that optometry is a safe profession in regards to using prescription medications........and that is worth some merit!!!!!!

 

[Ben Chudner]

Dr. Chundler,

I am well aware that OD's and OMD's work very well together in the real world. That doesn't mean that I don't see ( I am doing rotations) and hear from other students, and OD residents about times where they didn't! And what I said was a little tongue and cheek! But from a legislative standpoint----this is also the REAL WORLD, organized ophthalmology and medicine is not our friend hence the MD hubris!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I read and saw some pretty ugly stuff from OMD's in that arena.

This is exactly my point. On your rotations you are exposed to other students and OD residents. They have just as much experience as you, which is to say none. During my residency, I saw first hand how much OMD residents disliked OD's. From getting us kicked out of the ER (where we were making their lives easier by taking all the FB's, red-eyes, etc), to studies claiming that OD's are less accurate at measuring cup to disk ratios, some of the OMD residents just hated us. The attendings on the other hand were, for the most part, very friendly and willing to teach us. There is a big difference between this and the real world.

As for organized ophthalmology and medicine, I agree with you that they are not are friend in the context of us wanting expanded scope, but let's not pretend that organized optometry is innocent in all of this. It's people like you that are ready and willing to go "toe-to toe" that continues to strain that relationship. I am sure there are very level-headed people on both sides of the debate, but unfortunately they get drowned out by the zealots like you. There should be some common ground that both sides could agree on, but instead it has become more about ego and money than what is best for patients. Both optometry and ophthalmology are guilty of this.

The bottom line is that your frame of reference is as limited as the OMD residents, and therefore your comments have very little merit. My suggestion is to wait until you have been out of school for a couple of years before your start attacking the other side. I am willing to bet that you will see things a little differently by then.

 

[billclinton]

"All medical malpractice carriers are required by Federal law to report every malpractice payment made on behalf of healthcare providers to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). The NPDB has compiled cumulative data on malpractice payments since the program began in September 1990. The report is available on the NPDB Website and currently contains data on malpractice payments made for all classes of healthcare providers from September 1, 1990 through March 17, 2008, a total of 17 years, 7 months. This aggregate data is broken down into the number of payments by class of provider by state. Listed below are the total numbers of malpractice payments made by carriers over the past 17 years, 7 months for the independent doctoral-level provider groups who are authorized by the state legislatures to prescribe drugs.

Medical Physicians -----232,727
Osteopathic Physicians --14,733
Dentists------------------ 40,261
Podiatrists -----------------6,618
Optometrists -----------------580

This data, with only 580 reported malpractice payments made for optometrists in the past 17 years, 7 months, clearly shows the excellent, safe, and effective track record of the profession of optometry. How organized medicine can even hope to use a malpractice argument against legislation proposing to increase optometric scope of practice is hard to understand.
Malpractice insurance premiums for optometrists are, and remain, the lowest of any of the independent doctoral-level healthcare professions. These premium rates are lower than those paid by even some non-doctoral supervised allied health professions such as nurse practitioners and physician assistants."




Eyestrain,
I am not saying that OD's have the same level of liability as OMD's that would be erroneous.....Rather, what I am saying is that statistics point out that optometry is a safe profession in regards to using prescription medications........and that is worth some merit!!!!!!

You are funny. That is because 80-90% of an optometrists job is prescribing eye glasses. They are trained for much more, but very little of this is utilized on a day to day basis. What harm can occur by measuring someone's Rx??? If people have serious problems, they go to an OMD. Guess what? These serious problems do not have the same success rate as measuring someone's prescription. Treating the pathologies and doing the surgeries that OMDs do have inherently and exponentially higher risks, so there are more claims. Optometrists may diagnosis some of these conditions, but they don't fix them. They refer them.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Good gracious, I go away for a few days to take Step 1 and look what pops up.

Hey big Willy, the courses aren't more rigerous. Well unless you know because you've taken all the physics intense optics courses and all the basic sciece courses that are identical to med school and often times taught by the same professors.

Its all memorization and regurgitation.

Flame ON!

Heck, my undergrad Immunology and Molecular Biology prof told us he gave the exact same lectures and tests to his med students. Guess who graduated #1 in the pre-med class there brainiac?

I don't mean this as a personal criticism, but my undergrad biochem prof. said the same thing and he was quite mistaken. Grain of salt here, that's all.

Hey President Clinton,

I just have to interject here being a student currently in a doctor of optometry program and I have to say that you are promoting the "stereotype" of 'medical school is tougher than anything else'. This is NOT true. I have tutored some of the DO students at my school in neuroanatomy and gross anatomy and I will tell you with conviction that the programs of OD, DO, and DMD have similar academic difficulty. The are just DIFFERENT! In the basic sciences the optometry and dental programs have to finish the material sooner and cover the important/essential aspects because we get BURIED with Theoretical Optics, Visual Optics, Physiological Optics, 2 YEARS of Ocular Disease Courses, 3 semesters of Pharmacology, all sorts of clinical optometry (I call these the "eye doctor" courses), etc...... Think about this, in 4 years an OD or DMD/DDS has to be a COMPETENT doctor to practice in their fields of optometry and dentistry respectively whereas a DO or MD graduate would not be able to do so without the residency. I took several classes the year before applying to OD school out of an MD program (with special permission) and I got a 3.7 average. Now granted the difficulty in med school lies in the VOLUME not the concepts! Conceptually there is nothing that my friend has in his DO school didactic curriculum that is as tough as the depth we go into the ocular/visual system. Hell I had to know 40 types of amacrine cells while memorizing and understanding the entire visual pathway from RPE to V5---it was ridiculous! What the med students learn about the visual/ocular system is kind of a joke to be honest. There is no body system that the DO's (same as MD's) cover that is in that depth-----they simply don't have the time to do that. They have an excellent GENERAL education whereas OD's and DDS's have a good general education and an excellent specialized education as well. I have a lot of respect for DO and MD programs but to make the erroneous statement that in 2008, they are more difficult than OD or DMD/DDS/DPM programs is egregious.

I hate to break it to you, but I just looked up UAB's curriculum - 6 hours of pharm in 2 courses. Not 3. Med school typically does 8 hours. I'm not going to speculate on what this means, just that you're wrong.

At my school the PT students often tutor is in anatomy. You know why? We took 20 hours, they took 15. More time to spend on anatomy = tutors. I am unimpressed with tutoring.

Likewise, UAB has you taking 7 hours of path by the end of 2nd year, I've done 10. Not speculating on the meaning, merely that I am, again, unimpressed.

"All medical malpractice carriers are required by Federal law to report every malpractice payment made on behalf of healthcare providers to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). The NPDB has compiled cumulative data on malpractice payments since the program began in September 1990. The report is available on the NPDB Website and currently contains data on malpractice payments made for all classes of healthcare providers from September 1, 1990 through March 17, 2008, a total of 17 years, 7 months. This aggregate data is broken down into the number of payments by class of provider by state. Listed below are the total numbers of malpractice payments made by carriers over the past 17 years, 7 months for the independent doctoral-level provider groups who are authorized by the state legislatures to prescribe drugs.

Medical Physicians -----232,727
Osteopathic Physicians --14,733
Dentists------------------ 40,261
Podiatrists -----------------6,618
Optometrists -----------------580

This data, with only 580 reported malpractice payments made for optometrists in the past 17 years, 7 months, clearly shows the excellent, safe, and effective track record of the profession of optometry. How organized medicine can even hope to use a malpractice argument against legislation proposing to increase optometric scope of practice is hard to understand.
Malpractice insurance premiums for optometrists are, and remain, the lowest of any of the independent doctoral-level healthcare professions. These premium rates are lower than those paid by even some non-doctoral supervised allied health professions such as nurse practitioners and physician assistants."




Eyestrain,
I am not saying that OD's have the same level of liability as OMD's that would be erroneous.....Rather, what I am saying is that statistics point out that optometry is a safe profession in regards to using prescription medications........and that is worth some merit!!!!!!

You have got to be kidding me. Malpractice for surgeons is ALWAYS higher than for medicine. Plus, from looking at the above figures I see the following: 1) there are lots more MDs than DOs, so unless its per capita than the numbers are useless 2) dentist, podiatrists, and you guys don't treat the same things we do. I've never met an OD who had a patient die on them. Dentists and podiatrists maybe, but still much less often than us. Tell me, honestly, how you could mess up and kill a patient. If you say timolol you fail, systemic penetration of that drug is quite low.

 

[Oculomotor]

VA Hopeful ------I am talking about NOVA not UAB

Pharmacology classes (3 classes) ONE YEAR OF PHARM total !!

Second Year—Fall Term Hours

OPTC 3033 General Pathology 3.0
OPTC 3244 General Pharmacology I 4.0
OPT 3344B Psychophysics/ Monocular 2.0
Sensory Processes II
OPT 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I 3.0
OPTL 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I Lab 1.0
OPT 3533 Ocular Disease I: 3.0
Anterior Segment
OPT 3624 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods III
OPTL 3624 Optometric Theory
and Methods III Lab 1.5
OPT 4322 Introduction to 2.0
Binocular Vision
OPT 4951A Community Outreach I 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 22.5

Second Year—Winter Term Hours

OPTC 4022 General Pharmacology II 1.5
OPT 4122 Ocular Pharmacology 1.5
OPT 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II 3.0
OPTL 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II Lab 1.0
OPT 4433 Anomalies of 3.0
Binocular Vision I
OPTL 4433 Anomalies of 1.0
Binocular Vision I Lab
OPT 4524 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods IV
OPTL 4524 Optometric Theory 1.5
and Methods IV Lab
OPT 4633 Ocular Disease II: 3.0
Posterior Segment
OPT 4811 Epidemiology 1.5
OPT 4951B Community Outreach II 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 20.0


We get excellent training......

 

[Oculomotor]

"You are funny. That is because 80-90% of an optometrists job is prescribing eye glasses. They are trained for much more, but very little of this is utilized on a day to day basis. What harm can occur by measuring someone's Rx??? If people have serious problems, they go to an OMD. Guess what? These serious problems do not have the same success rate as measuring someone's prescription. Treating the pathologies and doing the surgeries that OMDs do have inherently and exponentially higher risks, so there are more claims. Optometrists may diagnosis some of these conditions, but they don't fix them. They refer them."


President Clinton,

Here is a practice survey done by Optometry and Vision Science....again I am using peer reviewed journal data (and I am sure you guys will find holes in it) lol

"Conclusion. Ocular disease treatment was found to be an integral part of the optometrist's practice. Prescribing topical
medications, both legend and "over the counter," was a primary treatment option. The most common medications
prescribed were for glaucoma, with antibiotics, antiinflammatory, and antiallergy drops making up the remainder in
descending order."
SOURCE
(Optom Vis Sci 2006;83:E625–E636)


5 Most Common Treatment Procedures

# % cum%
Prescribed medications 2,216 20.08% 20.08%
Over-the-counter medications 1,813 16.43% 36.51%
Eyeglass prescription/dispensing 3,257 29.51% 66.02%
Contact lens fitting/dispensing 2,764 25.04% 91.06%
Any surgical postoperative 363 3.29% 94.35%

SOURCE
(Optom Vis Sci 2006;83:E625–E636)


Number of Patients Diagnosed.
"Optometrists are very active in the provision of
medical eye care for their patients in 2006. During a six-month period, optometrists
diagnosed, on average, about 19 patients with glaucoma and 97 with other anterior
segment disorders. Optometrists with appropriate prescribing authority in 2006
treated or co-managed two-thirds (66.1 percent) of the patients they diagnosed with
glaucoma and four of every five (83.2 percent) of the patients they diagnosed with
anterior segment disorders."

SOURCE:
(2006 AOA Scope of Practice Survey----Survey conducted and published by the American Optometric Association,
Information and Data Committee, 2006)


The fact is every practice survey I have read states that treating ocular disease is an integral part of normal optometric practice. Dr Clinton, you need to do some research and get your facts straight! Have a good day.....

 

[Oculomotor]

Dr. Chundler,

I am actually a moderate in terms of my political yearnings..lol I am NOT an optometric zealot rather I am sensible. Case in point,

1) I want a uniform scope of practice across the country where we have the same scope of practice as Tennessee (they can prescribe any drug oral or topical relevant to the treatment of eye disease and they can do injectibles)

2) Have an 3 yr optometric surgery residency for the anterior segment, anterior segment laser therapy (leave the rest of the eye for the MD's) Again I make the analogy to OMS---they can't do all the stuff that ENT does but a lot of it.......

3) Have OD's on ALL insurance panels.

4) Make residency mandatory for anyone who wishes to be specialize in a certain area (ie vision therapy, low vision, etc.....) the rest would do family practice, general practice optometry.

5) Grant OD's limited admitting privileges at hospitals (to admit patients in the event of an emergency)

6) Grant OD's (in some states where they can't) the ability to order X-rays, MRI's, and other imaging modalities if necessary at hospitals or other off site imaging centers WITHOUT having to send a patient to another practitioner.

7) Fix the mess with 3rd party pay plans......geeeeesh

If all of these things make me a zealot then OH WELL. I care about my chosen field.

 

[eyestrain]

[/B]The fact is every practice survey I have read states that treating ocular disease is an integral part of normal optometric practice. Dr Clinton, you need to do some research and get your facts straight! Have a good day.....

So what. I still fail to see the point of this argument of yours.

 

[billclinton]

"You are funny. That is because 80-90% of an optometrists job is prescribing eye glasses. They are trained for much more, but very little of this is utilized on a day to day basis. What harm can occur by measuring someone's Rx??? If people have serious problems, they go to an OMD. Guess what? These serious problems do not have the same success rate as measuring someone's prescription. Treating the pathologies and doing the surgeries that OMDs do have inherently and exponentially higher risks, so there are more claims. Optometrists may diagnosis some of these conditions, but they don't fix them. They refer them."


President Clinton,

Here is a practice survey done by Optometry and Vision Science....again I am using peer reviewed journal data (and I am sure you guys will find holes in it) lol

"Conclusion. Ocular disease treatment was found to be an integral part of the optometrist’s practice. Prescribing topical
medications, both legend and “over the counter,” was a primary treatment option. The most common medications
prescribed were for glaucoma, with antibiotics, antiinflammatory, and antiallergy drops making up the remainder in
descending order."
SOURCE
(Optom Vis Sci 2006;83:E625–E636)


5 Most Common Treatment Procedures

# % cum%
Prescribed medications 2,216 20.08% 20.08%
Over-the-counter medications 1,813 16.43% 36.51%
Eyeglass prescription/dispensing 3,257 29.51% 66.02%
Contact lens fitting/dispensing 2,764 25.04% 91.06%
Any surgical postoperative 363 3.29% 94.35%

SOURCE
(Optom Vis Sci 2006;83:E625–E636)


Number of Patients Diagnosed.
"Optometrists are very active in the provision of
medical eye care for their patients in 2006. During a six-month period, optometrists
diagnosed, on average, about 19 patients with glaucoma and 97 with other anterior
segment disorders. Optometrists with appropriate prescribing authority in 2006
treated or co-managed two-thirds (66.1 percent) of the patients they diagnosed with
glaucoma and four of every five (83.2 percent) of the patients they diagnosed with
anterior segment disorders."

SOURCE:
(2006 AOA Scope of Practice Survey----Survey conducted and published by the American Optometric Association,
Information and Data Committee, 2006)


The fact is every practice survey I have read states that treating ocular disease is an integral part of normal optometric practice. Dr Clinton, you need to do some research and get your facts straight! Have a good day.....

This really only supports what I said above.

 

[billclinton]

Dr. Chundler,

I am actually a moderate in terms of my political yearnings..lol I am NOT an optometric zealot rather I am sensible. Case in point,

1) I want a uniform scope of practice across the country where we have the same scope of practice as Tennessee (they can prescribe any drug oral or topical relevant to the treatment of eye disease and they can do injectibles)

2) Have an 3 yr optometric surgery residency for the anterior segment, anterior segment laser therapy (leave the rest of the eye for the MD's) Again I make the analogy to OMS---they can't do all the stuff that ENT does but a lot of it.......

3) Have OD's on ALL insurance panels.

4) Make residency mandatory for anyone who wishes to be specialize in a certain area (ie ocular disease, low vision, etc.....) the rest would do family practice, general practice optometry.

5) Grant OD's limited admitting privileges at hospitals (to admit patients in the event of an emergency)

6) Grant OD's (in some states where they can't) the ability to order X-rays, MRI's, and other imaging modalities if necessary at hospitals or other off site imaging centers WITHOUT having to send a patient to another practitioner.

7) Fix the mess with 3rd party pay plans......geeeeesh

If all of these things make me a zealot then OH WELL. I care about my chosen field.

Sounds like you want to be an ophthalmologist... you should have went to medical school. This is not sensible because most optometry programs do not provide adequate training.

You should have looked more into optometry before applying. From your posts I gather you either couldn't get into medical school or blindly applied to optometry school thinking that an OD = MD. Once in you found out this was not the case you decided your only option was argue that u have the same privileges as an MD even though you will not have the same depth or breadth of training as an MD. Unfortunately, you cannot just think what would be best for you, but what would be best for patients.

The truth of the matter is that optometrists have a an important role to play, which does need to be changed. The main job of the optometrist is to prescribe glasses and contacts, screen for common eye problems, treat the simple stuff, and refer anything complicated to an OMD. This is actually beneficial in a number of ways. It saves OMDs time from dealing with this other stuff, so they can focus and maintain a level or proficiency for the more complicated stuff.

If you want a more integral part in eye care (As your posts seem to indicate), perhaps you should consider applying to medical school.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

VA Hopeful ------I am talking about NOVA not UAB

Pharmacology classes (3 classes) ONE YEAR OF PHARM total !!

Second Year—Fall Term Hours

OPTC 3033 General Pathology 3.0
OPTC 3244 General Pharmacology I 4.0
OPT 3344B Psychophysics/ Monocular 2.0
Sensory Processes II
OPT 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I 3.0
OPTL 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I Lab 1.0
OPT 3533 Ocular Disease I: 3.0
Anterior Segment
OPT 3624 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods III
OPTL 3624 Optometric Theory
and Methods III Lab 1.5
OPT 4322 Introduction to 2.0
Binocular Vision
OPT 4951A Community Outreach I 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 22.5

Second Year—Winter Term Hours

OPTC 4022 General Pharmacology II 1.5
OPT 4122 Ocular Pharmacology 1.5
OPT 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II 3.0
OPTL 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II Lab 1.0
OPT 4433 Anomalies of 3.0
Binocular Vision I
OPTL 4433 Anomalies of 1.0
Binocular Vision I Lab
OPT 4524 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods IV
OPTL 4524 Optometric Theory 1.5
and Methods IV Lab
OPT 4633 Ocular Disease II: 3.0
Posterior Segment
OPT 4811 Epidemiology 1.5
OPT 4951B Community Outreach II 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 20.0


We get excellent training......

Fine, 3 classes (UAB has the same number of hours in 2 classes so it doesn't matter). So you broke up the second class into 2 parts, same hours so its a moot point. I never argued the training, merely that 3 classes in something doesn't have to mean anything.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

"All medical malpractice carriers are required by Federal law to report every malpractice payment made on behalf of healthcare providers to the National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB). The NPDB has compiled cumulative data on malpractice payments since the program began in September 1990. The report is available on the NPDB Website and currently contains data on malpractice payments made for all classes of healthcare providers from September 1, 1990 through March 17, 2008, a total of 17 years, 7 months. This aggregate data is broken down into the number of payments by class of provider by state. Listed below are the total numbers of malpractice payments made by carriers over the past 17 years, 7 months for the independent doctoral-level provider groups who are authorized by the state legislatures to prescribe drugs.

Medical Physicians -----232,727
Osteopathic Physicians --14,733
Dentists------------------ 40,261
Podiatrists -----------------6,618
Optometrists -----------------580

This data, with only 580 reported malpractice payments made for optometrists in the past 17 years, 7 months, clearly shows the excellent, safe, and effective track record of the profession of optometry. How organized medicine can even hope to use a malpractice argument against legislation proposing to increase optometric scope of practice is hard to understand.
Malpractice insurance premiums for optometrists are, and remain, the lowest of any of the independent doctoral-level healthcare professions. These premium rates are lower than those paid by even some non-doctoral supervised allied health professions such as nurse practitioners and physician assistants."




Eyestrain,
I am not saying that OD's have the same level of liability as OMD's that would be erroneous.....Rather, what I am saying is that statistics point out that optometry is a safe profession in regards to using prescription medications........and that is worth some merit!!!!!!

As much as I argued with eyestrain before, occu. . . for a student you sure are making a bold statesment by saying that optometry is a safe profession based on what you have showned above. I have no doubt that it is a safe profession, but come on. . . did you at least took a statistics course? Did you consider variables such as difficulty of practice (ie surgery), number of opt/ to OMD practicing, malpractice of OMD versus Opt (lawyers goes after the big bucks), etc?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Dr. Chundler,

I am actually a moderate in terms of my political yearnings..lol I am NOT an optometric zealot rather I am sensible.

Incorrect

1) I want a uniform scope of practice across the country where we have the same scope of practice as Tennessee (they can prescribe any drug oral or topical relevant to the treatment of eye disease and they can do injectibles)

On the surface that seems fair, though the exact details would need to be worked out.

2) Have an 3 yr optometric surgery residency for the anterior segment, anterior segment laser therapy (leave the rest of the eye for the MD's) Again I make the analogy to OMS---they can't do all the stuff that ENT does but a lot of it.......

Yeah, good luck with that.

3) Have OD's on ALL insurance panels.

That's reasonable.

4) Make residency mandatory for anyone who wishes to be specialize in a certain area (ie ocular disease, low vision, etc.....) the rest would do family practice, general practice optometry.

So you'd deny ODs fresh out of school the ability to treat disease?

5) Grant OD's limited admitting privileges at hospitals (to admit patients in the event of an emergency)

Think real hard on this one. Most MDs I know don't even do that anymore. I love the idea of y'all in the ER to handle everything within your scope, but I'm not sure how keen I am on you admitting patients to an optometry service.

6) Grant OD's (in some states where they can't) the ability to order X-rays, MRI's, and other imaging modalities if necessary at hospitals or other off site imaging centers WITHOUT having to send a patient to another practitioner.

Also reasonable.

 

[Oculomotor]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oculomotor
4) Make residency mandatory for anyone who wishes to be specialize in a certain area (ie -----------, low vision, etc.....) the rest would do family practice, general practice optometry.

So you'd deny ODs fresh out of school the ability to treat disease?

NO I never said that!!!!!! STRIKE THE OCULAR DISEASE one!

 

[Oculomotor]

PRESIDENT CLINTON,


I am going to optometry school to be a Primary Eye Doctor not an ophthalmologist-----for GOD SAKES. I will treat eye disease----I have seen this done by OD's many times LOL! I also want to help a profession grow and expand and I am not a supporter of Medicine as I have felt it has monopolized health care. I am for change----here are things I support:

1) Doctors of Audiology (AuD's) "Audiologists" getting 1st contact rights thru medicare and prescription rights in the future. (do most of the hearing and balance evaluations.)

2) Pharm D's getting some prescription rights (patient convenience)

3) Podiatrists getting a full medical scope of practice (they are basically
foot and ankle MD's)

4) OMS surgeons getting privileges to do facial plastics (makes sense)

5) More states endorsing Medical Psychologists--prescribing psychotropics (they can recognize Psych disorders better than a family doc!)

6) Naturopathic Doctors (ND's) getting prescription rights in 50 states versus just a handful. (Alternative Medicine (CAM) I feel has some merit.)

7) Chiropractors getting more access to mainstream care (I love my Chiropractor!!!)

8) Optometrists having a uniform medical eye care scope of practice nationwide (OD's are the primary eye doctors in this country)

I support patient access to care, minimizing the monopoly held by medicine on health care, and a single payer health care system. Keep in mine my whole family is full of MD's LOL---I never really liked hospitals or the mentality of them when I was growing up. I understand that I will have to work with OMD's in the betterment of patient care and that is fine as long as they are respectful to myself and my OD counterparts.

Let me make this clear, OD's are not around to make your "life easier" as an ophthalmologist we are a separate profession! That is soooooooooooooooo narcissistic and arrogant to make a statement like that.

Here is a description of what optometrists (eye doctors do)

Doctors of Optometry (Doctors on the Frontline of Eye and Vision Care)

• Detect and diagnose eye diseases such as glaucoma, cataracts, retinal disorders, lid disorders, and infections such as conjunctivitis.
• Prescribe medication to treat eye diseases.
• Evaluate and treat vision conditions such as nearsightedness, farsightedness, astigmatism and presbyopia.
• Perform minor surgical procedures such as removing foreign objects from the eye.
• Provide pre- and post-operative care, especially for glaucoma, laser, refractive, and cataract patients.

• In some instances, perform laser, refractive or glaucoma surgeries.

official AOA sponsored definition..........

 

[eyestrain]

Oculomotor,

Please stop. Your ranting and raving is getting you nowhere with anyone. Your technicolor posts aren't helping either.

Thank you.

 

[Oculomotor]

Whatever.



Have a nice day eyestrain!!!

 

[DPMstudent]

Medical Physicians -----232,727
Osteopathic Physicians --14,733
Dentists------------------ 40,261
Podiatrists -----------------6,618
Optometrists -----------------580

those are interesting stats. how do they relate to the # of practicing professionals? (for example - im guessing that there are fewer podiatrists practicing than optometrists = a higher percentage of malpractice) so i guess im asking what is the ratio of practitioners:malpractice?

 

[Oculomotor]

I have a lot of respect for Podiatry as it was one of my possible choices of schools to attend! DPM's do a lot of surgical procedures and there are a number of them that do residencies 3-4 yrs for surgery of the foot and ankle. My guess is that they have much more inherent risk and that leads to more malpractice. How is your Doctor of Podiatric Medicine Program going? What area do you plan on going into?

 

[qwopty99]

Here is a practice survey done by Optometry and Vision Science....again I am using peer reviewed journal data (and I am sure you guys will find holes in it) lol

Cherry-picking this single article for arguments to support your position is not as compelling as you may think it is.

 

[Oculomotor]

Nothing is perfect. I could just as easily find info regarding iatragenic caused deaths, physician incompetence, and so forth. What is your point?

 

[gochi]

VA Hopeful ------I am talking about NOVA not UAB

Pharmacology classes (3 classes) ONE YEAR OF PHARM total !!

Second Year—Fall Term Hours

OPTC 3033 General Pathology 3.0
OPTC 3244 General Pharmacology I 4.0
OPT 3344B Psychophysics/ Monocular 2.0
Sensory Processes II
OPT 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I 3.0
OPTL 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I Lab 1.0
OPT 3533 Ocular Disease I: 3.0
Anterior Segment
OPT 3624 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods III
OPTL 3624 Optometric Theory
and Methods III Lab 1.5
OPT 4322 Introduction to 2.0
Binocular Vision
OPT 4951A Community Outreach I 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 22.5

Second Year—Winter Term Hours

OPTC 4022 General Pharmacology II 1.5
OPT 4122 Ocular Pharmacology 1.5
OPT 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II 3.0
OPTL 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II Lab 1.0
OPT 4433 Anomalies of 3.0
Binocular Vision I
OPTL 4433 Anomalies of 1.0
Binocular Vision I Lab
OPT 4524 Optometric Theory 2.0
and Methods IV
OPTL 4524 Optometric Theory 1.5
and Methods IV Lab
OPT 4633 Ocular Disease II: 3.0
Posterior Segment
OPT 4811 Epidemiology 1.5
OPT 4951B Community Outreach II 1.0
Total Semester Hours: 20.0


We get excellent training......

10 courses/sem ? How the heck is anyone suppose to learn through this intensity. No wonder NOVA kicks out students.

 

[gochi]

Oculomotor,

Please stop. Your ranting and raving is getting you nowhere with anyone. Your technicolor posts aren't helping either.

Thank you.

Speak for yourself, desolate.

 

[qwopty99]

Hmmm...

 

[IndianaOD]

Ah, I feel like all is well in the world. The token med students who think med school holds the key to all knowledge and the OD students fighting the establishment.

VA used to be a middle ground, but is showing the indoctrination is taking hold.

 

[DPMstudent]

How is your Doctor of Podiatric Medicine Program going? What area do you plan on going into?

so far so good. i'm still in the early part of my education, so I'm not sure how it will all pan out, but i'd like to get a 3yr residency

thanks for PMing that link!

 

[JMU07]

10 courses/sem ? How the heck is anyone suppose to learn through this intensity. No wonder NOVA kicks out students.

If you actually go back and read the courses, you'll see it's around 20 hours a semester.. sure, that isn't the "norm" for undergrad but nobody said OD school was going to be 12-15 hours a semester. Most of the courses are 1-2 hours each. Nova isn't the only school that requires that number of hours. Do some research.

 

[gochi]

Is English your first language? Desolate? You're looking for a noun there buddy, not a verb or adjective.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desolate?r=75

Well did you understand what I meant ?

 

[gochi]

If you actually go back and read the courses, you'll see it's around 20 hours a semester.. sure, that isn't the "norm" for undergrad but nobody said OD school was going to be 12-15 hours a semester. Most of the courses are 1-2 hours each. Nova isn't the only school that requires that number of hours. Do some research.

What I meant was that how are you suppose to learn the techniques while you learn the actual material ? Its like having 10 labs while taking 10 courses.