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Let's not derail the thread, please. Just do a search of this site, and you will find plenty of colorful posts on the subject from both sides.
Optometry is DEAD!
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Let's not derail the thread, please. Just do a search of this site, and you will find plenty of colorful posts on the subject from both sides.
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See the thing is, the poster here and the poster claiming optometry is NOT dead are both basically correct. It is and it isn't.
I don't see optometry vanishing. I do however see it getting harder and harder to make it in private practice, particularly a solo private practice unless you really, really, REALLY set yourselves apart from everyone else.
Being a "good doctor" is simply not enough. Having the latest technology is usually not enough. In many other specialites in health care, you can be a total dickhead and still have people coming to you. If you're the only nephrologist in town, you're good to go. If you're the only neurologist around, you're good to go. If you're the only psychiatrist in private practice, you're good to go.
Optometry isn't like that. ODs are a dime a dozen in just about every corner in the country. In a few select areas, they're about $0.25 a dozen. 😀
The OP of this thread is right. It IS a popularity contest. You have to CONVINCE people who have a LOT of choices on where to go for eye exams and eyewear that YOURS is the office to go to. You have to make it an experience for them. You have to "dazzle" them.
Some people find that unseemly. Some people find that undoctorly. Well, I'm here to tell you that that's the reality of the profession, particularly in private practice.
I don't see optometry vanishing. I do however see it getting harder and harder to make it in private practice, particularly a solo private practice unless you really, really, REALLY set yourselves apart from everyone else.
Being a "good doctor" is simply not enough. Having the latest technology is usually not enough. In many other specialites in health care, you can be a total dickhead and still have people coming to you. If you're the only nephrologist in town, you're good to go. If you're the only neurologist around, you're good to go. If you're the only psychiatrist in private practice, you're good to go.
Optometry isn't like that. ODs are a dime a dozen in just about every corner in the country. In a few select areas, they're about $0.25 a dozen. 😀
The OP of this thread is right. It IS a popularity contest. You have to CONVINCE people who have a LOT of choices on where to go for eye exams and eyewear that YOURS is the office to go to. You have to make it an experience for them. You have to "dazzle" them.
Some people find that unseemly. Some people find that undoctorly. Well, I'm here to tell you that that's the reality of the profession, particularly in private practice.
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That is my biggest complaint with optometry currently. You can't just be a good doctor and do well. You have to have an exceptional dog and pony show to keep people coming in. For the record and considering the area my practice is pretty strong and I get a lot of new referrals but I do tire of "putting on the show" greatly.
My PCP is a few years older than me and is a good doc, but not a spectacular personality. He no longer takes new patients he is so full. I wish optometry was more like that indeed. Hard to tell the truth when the AOA, ASCO, and the schools tell you all the lies about the hundreds of thousands of dollars you will make a year with all the patients beating down your door.
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True. Most of us go into a health care field, because we want to help people. Those of us who pursue doctoral training admit there is a monetary aspect, as well. The necessary sales and marketing end of it, however, is not really emphasized during training, and for most it can be a turn-off, or "undoctorly," as KHE nicely put it. The fact is, unless you are an employee, you are a small business owner. You are competing with other small business owners for customers to purchase your goods and services. It doesn't matter that it's eye care; could just as well be widgets. Like it or not, that's the current reality.
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I know and I understand. I sometimes feel the same way. But here's the thing....
THERE AIN'T A DAMNED THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!
It is what it is. What you have to do is accept it, embrace it, and go after it. If you're willing to make that commitment, you can do very well. You will have patients willing to spend more money with you than elsewhere and you'll have a good number of them. Not every patient will of course, but then again....not everyone stays at the Ritz Carlton.
To quote Hyman Roth again......this is the business we have chosen.
I wish that were true too. It ain't. You gotta accept it and move on from it. Accepting it was hard for me too. But once I did, it made all the difference in the world for me.
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Ok, I realize that I am not out yet, but there is one issue I have that everyone KEEPS on repeating....
This recurrent drum beat that optometry students (such as myself) are fed a four year diet of lies from the AOA, our profs, about how the pt's are going to be "beating our door down", and we are going to make 500k. As someone that is 3 years in, I can tell you that cannot be further from the truth, at least not here at Nova.
Today, in this mish-mosh of a class with a pointless name, we sat through a 3 hour lecture about the state of optometry. We went through dept of labor stats, compared them to AOA sunny side ups, and have had numerous OD's of every stripe come to talk to us...and let me tell you, it is anything but the "all is peachy" brainwashing it is reported to be. We are required to read 2 books on practice management, and the PM organizations here are constantly presentations on for us.
The message I feel we get from the school is this: There is oversupply in most major cities (had our optics prof say "and many of you are probably going to contribute to the massive oversupply of South Florida"), and it is years away from any possible improvement due to retirements. As far as optical sales go, wholesalers are going to wipe you out for the cost at any cost customer, so don't try. You are going to have to be a very good doc, AND be a pretty charismatic person, AND have good business sense to really do well. Over half will have to at least start at corporate.....you get the idea. It's not an indoctrination, promise.
As for the original idea, I find that almost any statement of "optometry is _____" to usually be a simple-minded kicking of the hornet's nest, and I can't see what is really contributed by it.
This recurrent drum beat that optometry students (such as myself) are fed a four year diet of lies from the AOA, our profs, about how the pt's are going to be "beating our door down", and we are going to make 500k. As someone that is 3 years in, I can tell you that cannot be further from the truth, at least not here at Nova.
Today, in this mish-mosh of a class with a pointless name, we sat through a 3 hour lecture about the state of optometry. We went through dept of labor stats, compared them to AOA sunny side ups, and have had numerous OD's of every stripe come to talk to us...and let me tell you, it is anything but the "all is peachy" brainwashing it is reported to be. We are required to read 2 books on practice management, and the PM organizations here are constantly presentations on for us.
The message I feel we get from the school is this: There is oversupply in most major cities (had our optics prof say "and many of you are probably going to contribute to the massive oversupply of South Florida"), and it is years away from any possible improvement due to retirements. As far as optical sales go, wholesalers are going to wipe you out for the cost at any cost customer, so don't try. You are going to have to be a very good doc, AND be a pretty charismatic person, AND have good business sense to really do well. Over half will have to at least start at corporate.....you get the idea. It's not an indoctrination, promise.
As for the original idea, I find that almost any statement of "optometry is _____" to usually be a simple-minded kicking of the hornet's nest, and I can't see what is really contributed by it.
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I must admit, after reading this thread, I feel so compelled and inspired to study for NBEO part I this summer.... LoL 👎
So you are complaining about a class where they are attempting to educate you a little bit about the business of optometry. Did you read the 2 practice management books? Did you learn anything? Are you going to be one of those ODs refracting in retail in a few years and complaining that your school didn't teach you anything about business?
Are you upset that your professors are giving you a little heads up on the state of optometry? Every major metro area in this country has too many ODs. I don't think you'll find a single OD on this forum that will disagree with that statement.
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it seems like you're being a little negative about your education.
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I think the intention of the post is to dispel the prevailing myth that our educators are showering us in a double rainbow of happy cheery "do your best and you will succeed" rhetoric. The point was to clarify that in at least some current OD programs, students are exposed to the cold hard "real world" facts regarding competition, business, insurance, etc.
I understand the intent, but this particular student complains a lot about negativity on this forum and I thought this was a particularly negative post...whining about useless classes in business, etc.
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"I understand the intent, but this particular student complains a lot about negativity on this forum and I thought this was a particularly negative post...whining about useless classes in business, etc."
Wow....
First of all, I challenge most anyone to ask an average doc that knows of this site, and for them NOT to hear that it is pointlessly negative, hence why they don't take it seriously. The fact that SDN is negative is a little like arguing over where the sun will rise tomorrow.
More so than the negativity toward the profession, which I feel is just an inevitability of the medium we use (nameless, pure keyboard courage), what is more bothersome is the fact that almost anything written, by anyone it seems, is taken by some people to mean whatever they want it to mean. The above poster was LOOKING for someone to fit their "whiny, naive student" pigeon hole, and I showed up. Any objective reading of what I read would not be seen as whining. I said that the class had a "pointless name" because I believe it is called Health Policy/Ethics, The Profession of Optometry and Public Funding/ Healthcare Goals ---- see, read that 6 times and tell me it makes a lick of sense. It is a class where they pretty much cover everything other than medical; I.E. Insurance, Medicare billing, medical ethics, state optometry laws, figures on the profession, etc...yes, it is 3 hours long once a week in the summer, and yes, the name is totally pointless to a class covering that many topics. I kind of thought it would be funny to read for the people here, either in op school or out now, in remembering the asinine names op schools give to their classes. It was not a complaint, it was a joke.
Now, for those that actually read words first and then make their conclusions, here is what I was trying to say:
I think that for a lot of docs on here, they appreciate being the contrarian, being the "bringer of truth" to the naive little students and pre-ops. A lot of this comes with good reason, as we hold a lot of opinions about the profession that are simply wrong. That is their job, to me, of being on here. To call us out on our BS over the profession. Problem is some take that way too far of course...
So when I read over and over that students are getting their heads filled with lies and sunshine at optometry school, it is one of the few areas where I have more information than they have. I know of several people in other schools and 2 family members. I am probably a better authority over what happens in school, just as an OD that is out is a million times better authority on just about everything else.
I feel that my school goes out of their way to banish this "indoctrination" idea, and was simply giving credit for their work in that area. I was not complaining about business classes, etc. If one actually DID read my posts, I have said in many places that I feel it is one area where schools should be more....in between "whining" of course I mean. We are given a lot of information about the true state of the profession, and how to best make your way. I applaud my school and others for doing so, and am a part of both the practice mgmt association here as well as FOSA, which does a lot of the seminars from docs out there now....so no, I am doing quite the opposite of complaining about it. Maybe a little research next time before the hatchet?
I am growing so tired of the personal attacks that seem to make u about half the posts on here. Not everyone that disagrees is a *****, and it seems like posting much of anything other than "We are all doomed. I will die pennyless and deserted." gets backlash....
Wow....
First of all, I challenge most anyone to ask an average doc that knows of this site, and for them NOT to hear that it is pointlessly negative, hence why they don't take it seriously. The fact that SDN is negative is a little like arguing over where the sun will rise tomorrow.
More so than the negativity toward the profession, which I feel is just an inevitability of the medium we use (nameless, pure keyboard courage), what is more bothersome is the fact that almost anything written, by anyone it seems, is taken by some people to mean whatever they want it to mean. The above poster was LOOKING for someone to fit their "whiny, naive student" pigeon hole, and I showed up. Any objective reading of what I read would not be seen as whining. I said that the class had a "pointless name" because I believe it is called Health Policy/Ethics, The Profession of Optometry and Public Funding/ Healthcare Goals ---- see, read that 6 times and tell me it makes a lick of sense. It is a class where they pretty much cover everything other than medical; I.E. Insurance, Medicare billing, medical ethics, state optometry laws, figures on the profession, etc...yes, it is 3 hours long once a week in the summer, and yes, the name is totally pointless to a class covering that many topics. I kind of thought it would be funny to read for the people here, either in op school or out now, in remembering the asinine names op schools give to their classes. It was not a complaint, it was a joke.
Now, for those that actually read words first and then make their conclusions, here is what I was trying to say:
I think that for a lot of docs on here, they appreciate being the contrarian, being the "bringer of truth" to the naive little students and pre-ops. A lot of this comes with good reason, as we hold a lot of opinions about the profession that are simply wrong. That is their job, to me, of being on here. To call us out on our BS over the profession. Problem is some take that way too far of course...
So when I read over and over that students are getting their heads filled with lies and sunshine at optometry school, it is one of the few areas where I have more information than they have. I know of several people in other schools and 2 family members. I am probably a better authority over what happens in school, just as an OD that is out is a million times better authority on just about everything else.
I feel that my school goes out of their way to banish this "indoctrination" idea, and was simply giving credit for their work in that area. I was not complaining about business classes, etc. If one actually DID read my posts, I have said in many places that I feel it is one area where schools should be more....in between "whining" of course I mean. We are given a lot of information about the true state of the profession, and how to best make your way. I applaud my school and others for doing so, and am a part of both the practice mgmt association here as well as FOSA, which does a lot of the seminars from docs out there now....so no, I am doing quite the opposite of complaining about it. Maybe a little research next time before the hatchet?
I am growing so tired of the personal attacks that seem to make u about half the posts on here. Not everyone that disagrees is a *****, and it seems like posting much of anything other than "We are all doomed. I will die pennyless and deserted." gets backlash....
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So referring to your practice management class as a "mish-mosh of a class with a pointless name" isn't complaining?
Here's may point...for years (probably generations) ODs have been complaining that they don't learn anything about business in school. So when you get the chance, do you take advantage of it, or complain that you're not spending enough time learning to be a medical doctor. Those business classes could prevent you from making a big mistake someday.
The only reason I joined this forum is that there is so much worthless nonsense (much of it from students) being posted here.
I'm speaking from many years of experience, and if you don't want to know the way things are fine, bury your head in the sand and pretend that some day someone will pay you to be a "medical optometrist" and worship your every move.
More likely, you're attending a private school, you will end up complaining about your massive debt and telling future ODs what a lousy profession this is.
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Did you actually read what I wrote? Just asking....I kind of put a lot into what I said and why. Should I quote my own post to reply?
No, I was saying how much I applaud the efforts to educate us, however silly they name the class....again, that was (I hoped) and inside joke to past or present students. Should I now try to tell people what THEY meant in their own words?
And I doubt very seriously I will be complaining about much of any of that, seeing as I currently have about 10k in debt and am a working fireman while going through school. (I am not 22 like most of my classmates) I have my first job already working in sports vision in Pensacola, all through a family friend that pushed me into the profession...but I'm sure you knew all of that already, seeing as we're on the same forum and all.
How about a new rule...no more PREDICTING, of future THOUGHTS of someone you do not know. I can't imagine that degree of insight in anyone not named "Cleo". (Is she still around?"
With ALL of that said, I would agree 100% that there is a nauseating amount of garbage on here from pre-ops that believe this profession is about medicine alone and not products, profit and loss, etc. I am simply saying that in my school, there is a lot of work being done to educate us to the realities, whatever the thoughts we came into school with....
No, I was saying how much I applaud the efforts to educate us, however silly they name the class....again, that was (I hoped) and inside joke to past or present students. Should I now try to tell people what THEY meant in their own words?
And I doubt very seriously I will be complaining about much of any of that, seeing as I currently have about 10k in debt and am a working fireman while going through school. (I am not 22 like most of my classmates) I have my first job already working in sports vision in Pensacola, all through a family friend that pushed me into the profession...but I'm sure you knew all of that already, seeing as we're on the same forum and all.
How about a new rule...no more PREDICTING, of future THOUGHTS of someone you do not know. I can't imagine that degree of insight in anyone not named "Cleo". (Is she still around?"
With ALL of that said, I would agree 100% that there is a nauseating amount of garbage on here from pre-ops that believe this profession is about medicine alone and not products, profit and loss, etc. I am simply saying that in my school, there is a lot of work being done to educate us to the realities, whatever the thoughts we came into school with....
Good for you! You already have a job and no debt, seems like you've got it made. Now just concentrate on graduating and passing your boards. Obviously you're not a "typical" student and your views don't represent the typical students currently in optometry school.
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"Obviously you're not a "typical" student and your views don't represent the typical students currently in optometry school."
That much is absolutely true... I have a much worse off point of view as to what awaits about 60% of graduates; that being a lot of corporate work (many in my class readily tell you that corporate is their future, no idea why), a lot of competition, and a lot of long weekends. I would be the first to say that especially right now, with the economy and the glut of graduates recently without a lot of retirements yet, that the bottom third's "floor" is much harder than it used to be.
With this said, I reject any idea that it is 95% of grads. The evidence of those I know simply does not bore that out. Over half? Probably true, especially until there are more retirements and a better economy. I know there IS a way to do this, and to do it without being hugely in debt. I also know too many people go along unawares as to any of these pitfalls.
As far as student "reality-school" though, I would say that our OD schools are not the problem....unless we are talking about how many there are! They have been trying to do their part. It is just that far too many are apathetic to any of this effort they make. So in that sense, I am VERY much not the average student.
Wow. A personal exchange that didn't end with Nazi references or someone getting kicked off the forum....I thought I was going to wake up and realize I was on ODwire.
That much is absolutely true... I have a much worse off point of view as to what awaits about 60% of graduates; that being a lot of corporate work (many in my class readily tell you that corporate is their future, no idea why), a lot of competition, and a lot of long weekends. I would be the first to say that especially right now, with the economy and the glut of graduates recently without a lot of retirements yet, that the bottom third's "floor" is much harder than it used to be.
With this said, I reject any idea that it is 95% of grads. The evidence of those I know simply does not bore that out. Over half? Probably true, especially until there are more retirements and a better economy. I know there IS a way to do this, and to do it without being hugely in debt. I also know too many people go along unawares as to any of these pitfalls.
As far as student "reality-school" though, I would say that our OD schools are not the problem....unless we are talking about how many there are! They have been trying to do their part. It is just that far too many are apathetic to any of this effort they make. So in that sense, I am VERY much not the average student.
Wow. A personal exchange that didn't end with Nazi references or someone getting kicked off the forum....I thought I was going to wake up and realize I was on ODwire.
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This thread was started with a pointless negativity like many opt students have already criticized, but not only that, it really tells us that there are so many optometrists out there that should not have chosen the particular profession- especially some of the younger optometrists that may have graduated about 10-15 years ago when a lot of the crucial changes have happened (effects from walmart/target, WWW, and etc mentioned before). This of course is not their faults since who knows what the future holds for us (exactly the point I am about to make). We can only predict and make educated guesses, right? And I can NOW see the exact reason why older optometrists from the 70s and 80s are "complaining" BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT THAN 3 DECADES AGO!! Too bad you listen to their advices to go into Optometry since it is such a "comfortable" profession because I can see that it might have been long time ago. Can you imagine some sort of real estate- realtors' forum right when the housing market crashed? Of course those people will say they will never let their kids enter real estate as their profession. My personal opinion is that the people who are BORN to do real estate still does live a happy life doing exactly what they love and make a comfortable amount of money more or less. The thing about optometry is that it does require customer service/sales aspect of it (apologize for stating the obvious). I just cannot, I will say it again, just cannot understand people that go into this profession and say that they don't want to work weekends, they don't want retail competition, they don't want have to impress patients with their non-dazzling personalities (!@#$%#@$%^>>>>??????!!)... see... people who are supposed to be optometrists are not going to think of those things as non-doctrine aspects of the profession. Those are exactly the number of the challenges that I found attractive in this profession compared to being an MD.
Paying off loans are hard (at least you have a job or some income to pay for min payment), schools will say unrealistic BS (that's why there is a clear distinction b/w academia and industry), and finally, life sucks for everyone. What a freaking surprise. If you wanted to be more like a medical doctor (not deal with customer service crap- althought many MD's deal with the same customer service crap as optometrists these days), and take everything OMD's say and do as an offensive attack toward the profession, why didn't you study a little harder, take the freaking MCAT and get into a medical school to be a doctor that goes to school for 3-8 more years that you, doesn't work on weekends, make twice-three times as much than you, be treated as a "real-doctor" (who cares!!!), don't have to smile at the patient to get them back...etc
Oh man, it feels good to say all this. Just don't live your life surrounded by non-sense, at least not until we find a full cure and prevention for cancer. It just is not good for you. After dreaming to be an MD since I was 8 years old (after a tragic car accident from which my mom suffered and took years to recover), everything I did in undergraduate was to get into a medical school. During that time I got into bartending to put myself through school and found out that I have a personality of a sales(wo)man and had a talent that could sell an icicle to a penguin in North Pole. I absolutely could not apart myself from studying science and wanting to practice it to help others, so I got my answer in Optometry instead of Medicine. I thought my skills and interest will be well balanced in optometry much better than studying medicine.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of optometry students and pre-opts out there with similar stories as mine. Please don't take it out on a public student forum about how much you suck at pleasing people and how non-competitive of a person you are, and how I should think twice about my passion in life. Again, not only pointless and unnecessary but also pretty sad. There are many craigslist postings and free blog that you can start online to complain about poor choices that you have made in life. I also am not interested in how you are going to force in and out of your children's decisions to choose what they want to do with their lives. You can tell your children and they will resent you for it for the rest of their lives, but don't do it here.
Thanks.
Paying off loans are hard (at least you have a job or some income to pay for min payment), schools will say unrealistic BS (that's why there is a clear distinction b/w academia and industry), and finally, life sucks for everyone. What a freaking surprise. If you wanted to be more like a medical doctor (not deal with customer service crap- althought many MD's deal with the same customer service crap as optometrists these days), and take everything OMD's say and do as an offensive attack toward the profession, why didn't you study a little harder, take the freaking MCAT and get into a medical school to be a doctor that goes to school for 3-8 more years that you, doesn't work on weekends, make twice-three times as much than you, be treated as a "real-doctor" (who cares!!!), don't have to smile at the patient to get them back...etc
Oh man, it feels good to say all this. Just don't live your life surrounded by non-sense, at least not until we find a full cure and prevention for cancer. It just is not good for you. After dreaming to be an MD since I was 8 years old (after a tragic car accident from which my mom suffered and took years to recover), everything I did in undergraduate was to get into a medical school. During that time I got into bartending to put myself through school and found out that I have a personality of a sales(wo)man and had a talent that could sell an icicle to a penguin in North Pole. I absolutely could not apart myself from studying science and wanting to practice it to help others, so I got my answer in Optometry instead of Medicine. I thought my skills and interest will be well balanced in optometry much better than studying medicine.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of optometry students and pre-opts out there with similar stories as mine. Please don't take it out on a public student forum about how much you suck at pleasing people and how non-competitive of a person you are, and how I should think twice about my passion in life. Again, not only pointless and unnecessary but also pretty sad. There are many craigslist postings and free blog that you can start online to complain about poor choices that you have made in life. I also am not interested in how you are going to force in and out of your children's decisions to choose what they want to do with their lives. You can tell your children and they will resent you for it for the rest of their lives, but don't do it here.
Thanks.
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Please, please LifeAsEYELikeIt....this is a place where we tell people how we really feel. Don't hold back next time.
All in all though,
Now just get ready for the massive backlash, "You are a naive neophyte" to come at what you wrote full-steam....you wrote something which did not include "We are DEAD, DOOMED, currently filling up the tub for my toaster bath" and that is usually frowned upon here.
Apparently, other people cannot predict the future events of entire industries, and are quite poor at telepathy insomuch as telling the future misery of people they don't know in an industry few understand....I am still coping with the shock
All in all though,
Now just get ready for the massive backlash, "You are a naive neophyte" to come at what you wrote full-steam....you wrote something which did not include "We are DEAD, DOOMED, currently filling up the tub for my toaster bath" and that is usually frowned upon here.
Apparently, other people cannot predict the future events of entire industries, and are quite poor at telepathy insomuch as telling the future misery of people they don't know in an industry few understand....I am still coping with the shock
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I am just confused as to who are the laughing stocks of optometry...ODs who graduated without researching the career and hate it? or Optometry students who, regardless of the career's discrepancies, are not bothered by those facts?? I highly doubt an unhappy OD is going to quit his/her job due to the economy/financial pressures/competition as I also doubt an OP is going to change their career choice because they read negative posts on here. If we cannot respect our own career, why the hell would we expect anyone else to? Just a thought, not a sermon. 😀
Agree.
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It's all relative...the same people who aren't bothered by "those facts" (students or young grads) will soon develop an opinion about Optometry which will indeed be along the lines of "Optometry is dead."
I don't understand how you can respect your own career when you are working in a Walmart...or, how can you respect your own career when your primary revenue comes from selling glasses - something which even an optician with no higher education can accomplish.
Its not just Optometry, but american corporatism has ruined the professional image and practice of most health care practitioners.
Sure some of the posters might exaggerate the negativity, but I find they speak the truth most of the time; at least more than the greedy schools.
Optometry certainly is not dead, but it has been in slow decline. Two or three decades ago, optometry did not have to deal with Wal-Mart, WWW, etc, and had an income that is equivalent to that of general MD's and dentists without the stress and working condition that come with the mentioned professions. It was one hell of a profession. Even as late as mid to late 90's, the standards (in terms of GPA) of the students entering optometry schools were only second to allopathic medical schools. Now, the income has declined and the standards of entering optometry students are also low compared to osteopathic medical schools, dental schools, and may even to pharmacy schools. I do not know how anybody would say that optometry is not in decline, and a person should definitely be wary when entering the profession.
Having said that I think that optometry is still a very good profession for some people. We know that not everybody has the desire to make the sacrifice go to medical school and to spend all of his 20's and early 30's before finishing residency, and also not everybody can tolerate a very close contact with patients such as performing surgery in someone's mouth or cleaning someone's bodily fluids.
What other health profession, besides optometry, provides a clean working environment and almost guarantees a good salary (80k +) upon graduation and the potential to make much more for someone who has the motivation and business skills?
Pharmacy does come to my mind, but that profession is getting super-saturated (the number of pharmacy schools went from 80+ to 120+ in the last decade and 20+ more schools are on a planning stage), and also retail chains' influence on pharmacy is much greater than that of optometry.
One of OMDs on SDN said that optometry offers one of the sweetest paths to practicing medicine. Optometry is no longer a super great profession 20 – 30 years ago, but it still is a decent and viable profession.
Having said that I think that optometry is still a very good profession for some people. We know that not everybody has the desire to make the sacrifice go to medical school and to spend all of his 20's and early 30's before finishing residency, and also not everybody can tolerate a very close contact with patients such as performing surgery in someone's mouth or cleaning someone's bodily fluids.
What other health profession, besides optometry, provides a clean working environment and almost guarantees a good salary (80k +) upon graduation and the potential to make much more for someone who has the motivation and business skills?
Pharmacy does come to my mind, but that profession is getting super-saturated (the number of pharmacy schools went from 80+ to 120+ in the last decade and 20+ more schools are on a planning stage), and also retail chains' influence on pharmacy is much greater than that of optometry.
One of OMDs on SDN said that optometry offers one of the sweetest paths to practicing medicine. Optometry is no longer a super great profession 20 – 30 years ago, but it still is a decent and viable profession.
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This pretty much sums it all up. And if you are OK with this then by all means join the profession. I see young ODs in absolute terror when they realize (with $200K in debt) that they will only make $70-80K the first year out. Somewhere they have gotten the idea that someone is going to offer them a $150K job with no weekends once they have that diploma.
There are unhappy people who will tell you to avoid the profession, ask why and listen, maybe you'll learn something. But dismissing them out of hand is foolish as they are actually in the business.
Most of us are here to help you get some realistic ideas about what its really like our here. I like what I'm doing, but if you enter this profession with unrealistic expectations and refuse to listen to people who actually work in this profession, you may end up among the growing number of miserable ODs.
If you're a student, I'm impressed, you seem to have a good idea what's going on.
I agree with the previous two practicing optometrists. You see, it's not theory to us. We live it, day in and day out. What many of you students don't seem to understand is that, here, you get the TRUTH.
If you come to one of our offices, we are likely to try to impress you and give you a much more watered down version of the story---maybe even upbeat. Why, because we are in our 'kingdom'- a place we've built with our own blood, sweat and tears (and mucho $$). We have to put on a show for our staff and our patients. No one wants to admit they are happy passengers on the Titantic.
And I don't think any of us want to tell you your an idiot for chosing optometry. It's just in an anonymous fourm such as this, we (at least me) feel free to show the ugly side of the profession. A side you NEED to know about to make an informed decisions on your future.
And I agree that optometry is still pretty good today. But it's getting harder as an alarming rate. But anyone that tries hard enough can be successful (at running a garbage company, selling BMWs or at optometry). Problem is, optometry used to be almost a guarantee as long as you get licensed. Now......you've gotta work much harder and smarter than you do in school. And many of you won't like what you have to do to succeed-- selling your soul isn't out of the question.😳
The main difference I've seen over the years is how much harder you have to work to make the same income (adjusted of course for inflation). ODs work many more hours per week than we used to. When I first started the average OD worked only 35 to 40 hours per week (including administrative time). I read somewhere recently the average is now 48 hours per week...and for the same amount of money and greater liability.
This has been a great thread, opened up room for interesting discussion, and gotten a few people all in a rash. What more could you want?
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How much of your time is for administrative work? Does an associate or a commercial doctor have a similar increase?
I don't delegate anything financial and i do some work that others would have an accountant do, but I allow an hour to an hour and a half a day to running the business and other tasks not involving direct patient care.
There's a lot of little stuff you would never think of that's got to get done. Also I believe in a lean practice, with fewer employees. I have friends who have double the staff I have.
I suppose an associate would have only record keeping to do. Don't know about retail, never been there.
While I understand your frustration, I do not think that it is a good idea to use a hyperbolic word such as dead to describe the state of optometry. There is tons of information about optometry (good/ bad, accurate/inaccurate) on the internet, and I believe that most students already have a decent idea about the profession.
One of the results of the relatively low income of optometrists has been a decrease in the standards of students entering optometry schools over the years, which should concern anybody who is in the profession.
Optometry can be either veterinary medicine or chiropractic. By which I mean optometry can be a relatively a low paying profession but still can attract highly qualified students into its profession OR it can be a profession that has dismal admission standards. Optometry schools will be filled no matter who and how many students apply.
Giving a realistic idea about the profession is one thing but using a word such as dead to describe the profession is entirely unnecessary. It would simply contribute to highly qualified students not considering optometry as a viable profession, which it clearly is.
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What you say here is, unfortunately, true for medicine, as well. Ask any physician (ophthalmologist or whatever) who has been in practice for 10-15 years or more, and they will probably tell you not to go into it. I heard that from multiple docs prior to med school. Health care, in general, is on a down slope, as costs and red tape increase, while reimbursements decline. You can still do well, but not as well as in the past and it definitely requires more effort. Every indication is that it will only get worse.
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As I review my previous comment, I do sound like a naive idiot that is a laughable stock in Optometry that should be but is not bothered by the evident discrepancies and the downfall trend that exist in the profession that I dont know much about but am about to sell my soul just to spend $200,000 in order to get the license to live a comfortable life where I secretly hope that I will be making $150,000 as my salary in a clean office with perfect flowers all around myself and my pretty staffs who think I have everything that anyone will hope to achieve in life.
Again, I might sound like that, but not at all true. I did NOT write the comment to say Shut up practicing optometrists, you dont know anything ! If that were to be true, I wouldnt have visited the 10 optometrists around my area before I made the decision to apply to the optometry school. Yes, as one of you were saying, they gave me a prettier version of their career where they showed me all the cool equipments that they get to use, the great work that they do with kids that couldnt otherwise read the board at school, and they put on an act in front of their staffs for sure. When I went back to their offices, I made sure to ask them what they HATE about the profession you think you make enough for what you do and ultimately, are you happy This is when I realized that most of them are not happy, but for a reason that I would laugh at. I am not talking about the details that were talked about in this thread, I dont mention them in my comments because as many of you are saying, I wouldnt know; I havent lived it. I am talking about general attitude when talking about it. Its one thing to say hey, current students, this is what is going on, here is a new issue, here is the reality, while you are studying, keep this in mind so that when you get out, you can be the future of optometry that will change things for us and yourselves we couldnt do it because it was too soon for us as the changes were happening sort of a thing. I would have printed your thread, high-lighted it and put it on my fridge. Ignore it?!! Not a chance.
Here is what I will admit. I did wake up on a wrong side of bed that day when I wrote my initial comment. I actually slept too much and did feel a little cranky. I should have listened to this thread with some filtering, because it is really frustrating to know (and live for you who are already practicing optometrists) that such a profession with a great potential is going to **** because of reasons that are not medically relevant. I am still young, but I did have a privilege to already have gone through one profession as a concert pianist. We practice 8 hours a day and not get paid until a couple of judges at a national competition tells us that they subjectively loved what you played compared to 20 other most qualifying pianists that practiced the same amount of hours or more and decides to give you a stipend of $20,000. You then go on to the next thing until you get a teaching position at some university with a minimal pay. If you calculate how much $$ I spent on lessons since I was 4 years old, $200,000 debt will seem like nothing. I am not here to compare apple and the beach ball, but just saying every career has their things. Without passion, you wont be able to look pass those things or work on those things for any career that you consider. And just saying that mentioning those things are fine but to say it in a context like this should not be acceptable for people who are living their careers to inspire and help the others. I hope none of naïve students that would have been fine optometrists that would have changed the world of optometry for us didnt drop out of their organic chemistry class because of this thread. Very very unlikely, but possible
Again, I might sound like that, but not at all true. I did NOT write the comment to say Shut up practicing optometrists, you dont know anything ! If that were to be true, I wouldnt have visited the 10 optometrists around my area before I made the decision to apply to the optometry school. Yes, as one of you were saying, they gave me a prettier version of their career where they showed me all the cool equipments that they get to use, the great work that they do with kids that couldnt otherwise read the board at school, and they put on an act in front of their staffs for sure. When I went back to their offices, I made sure to ask them what they HATE about the profession you think you make enough for what you do and ultimately, are you happy This is when I realized that most of them are not happy, but for a reason that I would laugh at. I am not talking about the details that were talked about in this thread, I dont mention them in my comments because as many of you are saying, I wouldnt know; I havent lived it. I am talking about general attitude when talking about it. Its one thing to say hey, current students, this is what is going on, here is a new issue, here is the reality, while you are studying, keep this in mind so that when you get out, you can be the future of optometry that will change things for us and yourselves we couldnt do it because it was too soon for us as the changes were happening sort of a thing. I would have printed your thread, high-lighted it and put it on my fridge. Ignore it?!! Not a chance.
Here is what I will admit. I did wake up on a wrong side of bed that day when I wrote my initial comment. I actually slept too much and did feel a little cranky. I should have listened to this thread with some filtering, because it is really frustrating to know (and live for you who are already practicing optometrists) that such a profession with a great potential is going to **** because of reasons that are not medically relevant. I am still young, but I did have a privilege to already have gone through one profession as a concert pianist. We practice 8 hours a day and not get paid until a couple of judges at a national competition tells us that they subjectively loved what you played compared to 20 other most qualifying pianists that practiced the same amount of hours or more and decides to give you a stipend of $20,000. You then go on to the next thing until you get a teaching position at some university with a minimal pay. If you calculate how much $$ I spent on lessons since I was 4 years old, $200,000 debt will seem like nothing. I am not here to compare apple and the beach ball, but just saying every career has their things. Without passion, you wont be able to look pass those things or work on those things for any career that you consider. And just saying that mentioning those things are fine but to say it in a context like this should not be acceptable for people who are living their careers to inspire and help the others. I hope none of naïve students that would have been fine optometrists that would have changed the world of optometry for us didnt drop out of their organic chemistry class because of this thread. Very very unlikely, but possible
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I did the math one day for how much my lessons were from age 6 to 18. I cried a little on the inside.
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Let me paraphrase that for you....just for fun....
Optometrists practice 8 hours a day and not get paid until a couple of "claims specialists" at a national insurance corporation tells us that they subjectively disapprove of the claim that you submitted compared to the 20 identical claims you previously submitted which they did approve of.
Then they give you a stipend of $38.15 and you go on to the next thing hoping to do it all over again.
If you calculate how much I've spent on insurance billers and staff in the last 4 years chasing down insurance claims to get what is rightfully mine, it will make you cry.
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I think anyone who takes major stock in life changing "advice" obtained from anonymous internet posters is crazy or perhaps just very naive. Some of the Optometrists that post here have some kind of agenda which is easily apparent by the fact that they tend to repeatedly post the same type of posts over and over again around the same theme with little variance. Usually something along the lines of: "Optometry is horrible. I mean I'm going to stick with it but everyone else should just skip it and do something else that'll be much, much better although I have no knowledge of what you like and also no suggestions on what that other 'much better' profession should be but really you should just do something else anyway......"
There are a few that seem to post balanced information but if you look through the archives you'll see that a lot of those types of ODs don't seem to post that much anymore. It could just be that the recession and hard times are getting to more people and making them bitter. However, getting advice from bitter people is a tenuous endeavor at best.
That's not to say that some of the information is not true. I think it's good to know some of these points or at least be aware of them so you can find more information about it through other sources. For example, I live near one of the places where one of these "bitter" ODs is located. That person mentioned some things in another thread that were partially true but a bit overblown and slanted so negatively to the point where it could be considered a bit dishonest. Based off of information obtained from several local ODs I feel that I have a clearer view of what is going on in our area. I wouldn't go so far as to say this person was lying because there is some truth to it but I'm just saying that my personal view is that it isn't quite as bad as it was portrayed around here (at least not yet) and may not be anything different from what any other profession is experiencing right now. (just fyi, ALL of these local ODs were very happy with their profession across Private and Commercial(incl Walmart).
You should really just do your own research to come up with your own conclusions. Information here can help you come up with a few things you want to know more about. Then if you haven't already done so, you should talk to several ODs locally to get their point of view. People tend to be more balanced in their messaging when you're talking to them face to face. If you can shadow or interview several ODs, you may be able to get a much more realistic view of what's really going on around you.
There are a few that seem to post balanced information but if you look through the archives you'll see that a lot of those types of ODs don't seem to post that much anymore. It could just be that the recession and hard times are getting to more people and making them bitter. However, getting advice from bitter people is a tenuous endeavor at best.
That's not to say that some of the information is not true. I think it's good to know some of these points or at least be aware of them so you can find more information about it through other sources. For example, I live near one of the places where one of these "bitter" ODs is located. That person mentioned some things in another thread that were partially true but a bit overblown and slanted so negatively to the point where it could be considered a bit dishonest. Based off of information obtained from several local ODs I feel that I have a clearer view of what is going on in our area. I wouldn't go so far as to say this person was lying because there is some truth to it but I'm just saying that my personal view is that it isn't quite as bad as it was portrayed around here (at least not yet) and may not be anything different from what any other profession is experiencing right now. (just fyi, ALL of these local ODs were very happy with their profession across Private and Commercial(incl Walmart).
You should really just do your own research to come up with your own conclusions. Information here can help you come up with a few things you want to know more about. Then if you haven't already done so, you should talk to several ODs locally to get their point of view. People tend to be more balanced in their messaging when you're talking to them face to face. If you can shadow or interview several ODs, you may be able to get a much more realistic view of what's really going on around you.
Hard to believe... huh ! the OP has practiced Optometry for 12 years grosses over 400k.. nets 140k and pays tax on 80k.. has a business and a home, investments and equity, but feels he the need to come on a student doctor internet forum and start a thread about " Optometry is Dead" 😕 .. this guy has some issues that have nothing to do with Optometry !
This last post is really way out there...
This last post is really way out there...
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Wow, if I didn't know any better, I'd think I wrote this myself. The only thing I remotely disagree with was the 70% over-saturation figure. I actually think it's much higher than that.
What's most confusing to me is, I don't really know where the resentment from prospective OD candidates comes from. If someone were trying to stop me from making a huge mistake that could cost me a couple of hundred grand and could strap me financially for the rest of my career, I'd at least be listening with an open ear. But it seems like any time someone hears anything remotely negative on this or any site, they freak out and start making unfounded claims that imply that only the 1 legged, dandruff laden, mute optometrists are out there struggling, everyone else is just raking it in. Sorry, optometry IS dead for all but a very fortunate few who have family connections, parents with very deep pockets, or the ability to relocate to the edge of the earth. If you're reading this and thinking, "Whatever, I'll be fine because I can make my own path...." be careful, you will very likely find out soon enough that your attitude cost you a great deal of time and money.
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Whyyy !!! you guys always gotta throw that out there......no matter how eff'ed up the original post...your first instinct is to squash any little enthusiasm a student might have for the future of Optometry... this is primarily a STUDENT Doctor network and this is the Optometry forum...do you think all students should be dismal about this profession or they must be idiots because they choose to face whatever they have to deal with...with a bit of optimism even in the face of uncertainty...Jeez...no wonder that SoCal kid went off his rocker.
It only takes an afternoon on here to figure out,
many students will find themselves in huge debt without the cushy well paying career they dreamed about,
okay... the students got that part or they never will..so who benefits by this constant lamenting.
IndianaOD shame on you "anyhoo, back to the misery of the future of optometry grads!" c'mon dude !
...you can't find someplace else to bring that ?
Do any Docs really think its cool for a Doctor to start a thread "Optometry is Dead" on a Student Doctor network...what good does that do anybody ??...thats jacked off !
Thats probably an all time low for any forum on SDN !
The OD's who post on SDN should have a little more to say about that than, the orignal post is a little extreme... but !
"While I don't agree with everything in the original post, I can verify from my years in this profession (over 20 now) that things have changed a lot and optometrists in general don't seem to be as satisfied as they used to be".
is that all you got for students after (over 20 now)...gosh thanks
Just another example of applicants/students saying "Don't tell me anything I may not want to hear, just tell me all the good stuff." That attitude can get you into trouble. If all you want to hear is positivity, just limit your research to the AOA website and what your school tells you at the welcome speech by the dean.
The docs on here voicing their concerns over the future of optometry are doing so in order to prevent others from entering a profession which doesn't need any new additions. They're not on here to make friends or make your stressful day any more stressful, they're here to try to help those people who can listen to both sides of a discussion and decide for themselves. If the only purpose for this type of forum was to blow magic optometric sunshine up each others' butts, it would be a phenomenal waste of time.
You're free to read all of the posts on here, negative and positive, and make your own decision. If you choose to get an OD and spend a ton of money on a degree with questionable return value, don't be surprised when you find yourself back on this forum a year or two after graduation when you can't keep up with your loan payments and you wear a yellow smiley button to work every day.
For me optometry has been a wonderful profession and is doing extremely well. As for a Rolls Royce, my old boss at an HMO was an OD with a Rolls Royce, a Porche and another premium car that I don't remember. I have been in practice for over 30 years and have owned my own practice for over 20 years. Our office is very busy and successful, so don't be discouraged in the least.
Also, I also know an optometrist that built what he described as a castle. He bought a hilltop near Pacific University, bulldozed the top flat and built a big, two story octagonal home on the top. I did a 4 month rotation with him at a school for the blind. He was a diplomate in the Academy of Optometry in three areas and when he moved from New York to teach out west he had to take the entire NBEO all in the same year. His lowest score was an 88. He told me so himself and I believe him.
So keep the faith and study hard. You may never own a Rolls or a castle, but on the other hand, you may if that's what you really want.
Also, I also know an optometrist that built what he described as a castle. He bought a hilltop near Pacific University, bulldozed the top flat and built a big, two story octagonal home on the top. I did a 4 month rotation with him at a school for the blind. He was a diplomate in the Academy of Optometry in three areas and when he moved from New York to teach out west he had to take the entire NBEO all in the same year. His lowest score was an 88. He told me so himself and I believe him.
So keep the faith and study hard. You may never own a Rolls or a castle, but on the other hand, you may if that's what you really want.
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2011-30 = 1981.
You can't compare optometry in 1981 to optometry in 2011.....well, actually, you can, except that it would be pointless with respect to this thread.
30 years ago, you could charge $300 for contact lens fitting. $600 for glasses. $150 for eye exams.
Nowdays, you charge $50 for cl fits, $100 for glasses and $49 eye exams.
You've also got more competition and insurance companies pay you less and less every year.
I'm not against optometry, but do you not see the difference between optometry in the 80s vs now? I would agree that optometry is still a good profession, but all the crap that goes along with insurance companies, the AOA's and ABO's and dependency on materials to make an income is pretty pathetic for a profession that requires you to commit 8 years of your life to it.
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If that's the case then can you compare any of these health related professions to what they were back then or even 10 years ago? Does that mean that all health care related professions are dead too? Is it ok for an OD to feel entitled to what they were getting in the past and thus declare the profession dead because things have changed over time? If that's the criteria then shouldn't most health care related professions be considered dead too? Is optometry the only health care profession that has to deal with insurance companies? Just trying to see why the OP thinks optometry is so much worse off than other health care professions.
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Rest assured that no one was charging $600 for glasses thirty years ago. And they were DEFINITELY not charging 150 for an exam. The exam was free with purchase of a set of glasses.
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Didn't anyone clue-in yet that this is a sarcastic post?
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Weren't soft contact lenses popular by the 1980s? Not silicone hydrogels, of course, but the "traditional" soft lens, which would be removed and cleansed nightly, and the pair kept for ~one year? If so, those weren't $300.00, were they? (And, more important, were they more costly than the bi-weekly or monthly lenses that are popular, nowadays [i.e., in 2011]?)
@Tippytoe..My thoughts exactly...I'm a seasoned OD myself, and I feel exactly the same way you do. If I could do it all over again, I would have gone to pharmacy school. At least then, I wouldn't have to worry about insurance companies nickel and diming me on every insurance claim I submit. You bill $95 for a comprehensive eye exam and the ins. company reimburses you $35, what is our field turning into??? $35, is that all we're worth. I spend more than that on half a tank of gas, or dinner at an inexpensive restaurant. $35 in 2011, what will it be in 10 years down the road, $5.00, our profession is in really bad shape!!!
I count 3 practising OD's that agree 100% with Tippytoes op on this thread, thats a wrap
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I think as an ophthalmologist I can say that optometry is not dead whatsoever. There is a need for primary care of the eye. Do optometrists probably make less than they used to back in the day..yes...but so do all medical specialties. Ophthalmology was once known as the rolls royce of subspecialties..no longer so...Basic eye care is needed and I am pretty sure that ophthalmologists are not going to be excited about doing that..My friends who are optometrists are overwhelmingly happy
Perhaps the reason that Ophthalmology is no longer the the Rolls Royce of specialities is because optometry schools have been pumping out an oversupply of ODs for the past 20 years--taking away OMD patients.
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