Optometry is DEAD!

[imemily]

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imemily, where is YOUR data that supports a booming optometry profession? All anyone ever gets out of you is whining about whining. No facts, no figures, just hot air and complaining about other people's complaints. If you're so well-read on the state of optometry, why don't you cite some data which point to a thriving profession? Where are those data? So, c'mon - YOU can do much better.

I should also point out yet another shortcoming in your understanding of the situation. That AOA did not conduct the 2000 workforce projection study, they were the primary funders. There's a difference. But you go ahead and rely on what Uncle Sam says in the BLS, all of that data is rock solid and very current😀

Finally, there's a difference between trolling and responding to "hot air" with more "hot air." If you want real responses, post some real thoughts with some real insight. If you'll read through my posts, you'll see that the level of insight and maturity matches the posts to which I am responding. Funny how yours bring out my sophomoric side. Try the insight thing sometime, you might be surprised what you can come up with.

When did I ever say Optometry was a booming profession?

LOL, you are a smart one.

Its pointless for me to answer your other questions since the foundation of your questions lies upon the assertion that I somehow implied that Optometry was a booming profession......lol.

You clearly stated that Optometry is a dying profession, or is already dead, so why can't you back it up? Really, show us some data/facts which CLEARLY illustrate Optometry's downfall.

Good luck on your conquest of finding reliable data and or evidence supporting your self-perceived notion that Optometry is a dying profession.

 

[Jason K]

Sidestepping from the imemily drama for a second,
what should/can we do about this problem?

Since the 200k has already been invested in the Titanic, what are we supposed to do besides being optimistic and trying to affect the profession in a positive way?

There's really no single answer to that question, in my opinion. The first step is to recognize that there is, in fact, a problem. What's done next is up to the individual and up to the larger organized bodies within the profession at the local, regional, and national level. For some individuals, it may be to take a job that pays the bills, or maybe just bite off more risk and take a chance. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't. For others, they might seek alternative careers within optometry or the eye care field as sales reps, practice consultants, government employees, or faculty positions at one of our 600 and counting optometry programs. (I hear the AZ school is hiring and I also hear a large portion of their faculty are fresh out of their residency training.) Others might leave the profession all together as predicted in the workforce study.

At the organized level, optometry, as a profession, needs to recognize that there are serious issues which need to be dealt with in order to reverse the trends that are affecting the profession. Those issues do not involve our ability to do ALT/SLT, Yag, or lid excisions. On the whole, I believe that we need to retrain the public to view eye care as the dentists have done for their field. People are far more concerned with their teeth than they are with their eye health, and the ADA can be thanked for that, in large part. Can we say the same about our AOA? I think not. We also need to restore the value of an OD - it has virtually disappeared since there are so many of us. It's evident in the paths new grads are taking and the decreasing pay they are getting. Closing down some programs (or not creating them in the first place) does not seem out of the question to me, personally, although I know full well that will never happen. Creating more incentives for students to migrate to places which could use some more ODs would help. There aren't enough of those in place and ODs are even excluded from some loan repayment programs which are designed to help just about every other health profession graduate. All in all, ODs need to take back the profession which is being taken from them by corporate, by insurance companies, by private OD programs interested in profit, and by the AOA which is watching the whole train wreck take place, seemingly doing nothing to stop it short of buying another workforce study for 2012.

I don't think anyone on here has an answer to your question that would apply to everyone. I guess we all just have to try to do what we can, pay our loans, and move forward. In the mean time, if I can save a few intelligent souls from making the same mistake that I did, I'd like to do so.

 

[JAZZEYE]

There's really no single answer to that question, in my opinion.
I don't think anyone on here has an answer to your question that would apply to everyone.

So... would you say that the future of Optometry presently is very unpredictable because it has a complex set of components, one of which is over saturation among many other issues that are common to the healthcare industry as a whole.. along with some challenges that are particular to Optometry.
Also,
there are some opportunities out there that are less then desirable and many new graduates will have to take these positions that they won't be happy with just so they can survive and pay their debt.. while some other fortunate or ambitious ones may find themselves doing okay and maybe even prosper..while still some others may even decide to leave the field altogether because its not what they imagined at all..won't some of this have to do with the actual individuals personal circumstances, amount of debt, location, networking, stomache for risk, willingness to fight for what you want even if the deck is stacked against you.

Yes.. there are too many schools and more coming the field is already over saturated..that sucks.. no easy path out there for sure.

But isn't it quite a leap to declare "Optometry is Dead"
I think that is mostly what the students object to on this forum..the difficulties that you've experience and shared are welcomed information.
The hopelessness is not.

 

[Tippytoe]

Okay instead of 'Optometry is Dead', let's change the title to:

"Optometry is Dying a Slow and Painful Death". Doesn't roll off the tounge as well but maybe more accurate.

As far as what to do. Well, I'll just say, "Every OD can not succeed. But any OD can". Think about it.

You are all ahead of the game just by being here. You probably won't believe how many ODs have their heads in the sand, just slugging away in their own little 900 sq ft office, totally oblivious to the world around them.

 

[thiaeyemd]

If there is a true oversupply, restoring the value of the OD will be difficult. Also the income of the OD will go down as you increase the number of providers..Finally, the volume for each provider will go down thus diluting the clinical experience for each OD. If this is a "true" oversuppy then your leadership should do something.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Okay instead of 'Optometry is Dead', let's change the title to:

"Optometry is Dying a Slow and Painful Death"

Okay.. your determined to turn this into the Optometrysucks forum,
and you want us all to " just say thank you "

 

[Tippytoe]

Okay.. your determined to turn this into the Optometrysucks forum,
and you want us all to " just say thank you "

Yes. But in honor of you, I've added my own thug avatar.

 

[Tippytoe]

So we have bascially three groups on here:

1. A few practicing ODs that say life is grand.
2. Some practicing ODs that say, the future in optometry ain't so bright.
3. Some students who have no clue spouting off what they think.

Who should you believe?

A little analogy:

A mechanic goes into a car lot to try out a fancy but "pre-owned" corvette. He gets in, drives, skids around, does the 0-60 tests, tests the brakes etc. He determines the car is no good because it is leaking oil, the valves are ticking, and smoke is pouring out of the tailpipe. But it still goes fast! And it looks good!

Another person walking by, having never been in the car, gives his opinion based on the fact that he has driven a Hyundai before AND his cousin had a corvette just like this one 8 years ago.

This second person tells the first one he has no idea what he's talking about and the car is great. (Maybe the second person goes on a pyschotic rant saying "prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it and when shown the leaked oil on the ground says, that doesn't prove anything....... and then calls the mechanic a whiner.")

So which person would YOU believe with your $50,000 car money..............or your $150,000 education money?

 

[Jason K]

But isn't it quite a leap to declare "Optometry is Dead"
I think that is mostly what the students object to on this forum..the difficulties that you've experience and shared are welcomed information.
The hopelessness is not.

Agreed, optometry is not completely dead at this exact moment. But then, an entomologist friend of mine tells me a cockroach can live on for up to 3 months without its head. It just runs around, looking very alive, and it is, in a sense, but it has no head and will certainly die in short order. If you were weird enough to want to purchase an expensive exotic cockroach as a pet, would you buy one that had no head? It's still alive, technically, but would that be a smart move? Optometry, at this moment in time, is a headless cockroach - not dead yet but heading for certain demise. Right now, there are established OD practices doing very well in the US. They are the body of that decapitated cockroach. Once they go, the rest of the bug goes with it. The number of ODs who own or work in successful, entrenched OD practices is being overtaken by the number who work at Walmart, Sam's, Sears, EyeMart, VisionWorks, America's Best, Costco, Pearle, LC, Target, etc, etc, etc, and the best part is, that number increases every year as new grads funnel into the commercial/corporate world with nowhere else to go, further growing the commercial/corporate animal. Historically, optometry has been a private practice profession - that is changing rapidly because of the excess of ODs who have nowhere else to go, but into one of the many refraction mills. New grads are NOT going into private practice right now. They just aren't. If anyone else has gone through the trouble of polling grads from three OD programs to find out where they are going, please speak up. I've done just that and the trend was apparent quite soon after I started asking => new grads are going into contracted commercial and employed corporate positions. Grads are going where the jobs are and that is NOT private practice. Thus, the face of optometry is changing from one of respectable private practice, to something very different.

People can run up and down the streets chanting how bright the future is for ODs, but it doesn't change anything. Saturation, corporate influence, reimbursement cuts, encroachment from opticians, competition from OMDs, and the resultant declining pay and decreased OD value from all of the above will spell the end for the prosperous days of optometrists. If the degree cost 25K, the situation would be totally different. But when you're dropping a up to a quarter of a million for a degree that get's you 70 to 80K in return before taxes, something has to give. Is 75 to 80K the average income for all ODs? No, but it's about right for employed ODs right out of school and residency, if you're one of the fortunate few who lands a FT job. Right at a time when a suitable income is most important in order to be able to make payments right away against large student loan principals. When you get out and you make 75K before taxes, you expand your term to 25 years or go on IBR, you just virtually guaranteed a doubling of your OD cost. Why not just leave your term where it starts, usually at 10 years, right? That puts your payment for a 200K loan at about $2300 per month. That's going to be about half your income, if you're lucky. It won't matter that you might be making 115K after 10 years in practice if you're not making enough after graduation to keep on top of your loan payments. There are many new docs in many fields right now, happily cruising along on IBR, blissfully unaware that they are growing a beast of a principal that they may never be able to get a hold of later in their careers.

The reasons for which most people used to pursue a career in optometry have largely diminished. Job security, expected income, career options, and balanced lifestyle are not what they once were for ODs, as for many professions. My whole point is that people should look at what they want to get back from their OD (since they paid dearly for it) and ask themselves whether the degree can create a path to where they want to go. No degree can do anything for it's holder on its own. It's up to the individual to ultimately TAKE the path that the degree puts in front of them, but if the path isn't there anymore, or if it's riddled with dirt, debris, and dead bodies, then degree holder ends up going in circles for the duration of their career.

I'm sorry that doom and gloom is unwelcome on this forum, although I agree with what you say in that regard. But if you're on an airliner that's plummeting toward Earth at 500 knots, it doesn't do anyone any good to say "Hey, everyone just relax, it's not that bad....." Sometimes, it is that bad, it just needs to be said, and no amount of touchy-feely self back-rubbing will lead to anything other than an inevitable outcome. That's my opinion.

Hey, would you look at that? That's two whole posts from me without sarcasm, returned insults, or modified excerpts from Joe Pesci films. It's amazing what can happen when people post insightful, though-provoking comments instead of carbon-copied, mindlessly repetitive retorts that are reminiscent of a circular phone tree on a national bank's customer service line.

 

[imemily]

I wasn't aware that after obtaining your Od degree, you are also rewarded with a professional trolling degree. The fine use of italics and bold fonts in specific areas of text were probably key teachings of trollin' 101' and if used wisely would probably make it seem like the troll knew what they were talking about. Also, trolls have also mastered the art of whining and crying and often play the victim.

Did I miss anything?

 

[thiaeyemd]

that response was very troll like yourself...you know what they say...whoever smelled it dealt it

 

[Tippytoe]

i wasn't aware that after obtaining your od degree, you are also rewarded with a professional trolling degree. The fine use of italics and bold fonts in specific areas of text were probably key teachings of trollin' 101' and if used wisely would probably make it seem like the troll knew what they were talking about. Also, trolls have also mastered the art of whining and crying and often play the victim.

Did i miss anything?

Still waiting emily? What kind of facts do you want? I called your bluff. Are you embarrsed yet?

 

[Tippytoe]

A little gloom from our OMD colleagues. And remember, they can do everything we can do PLUS they have greater patient access and can do surgery.

Of course, this ophthalmogist is just a loser and a whiner too.......in a national magazine none-the-less (with a bit of a rosey glow at the end for editorial purposes).

http://www.ophmanagement.com/article.aspx?article=105853

 

[KHE]

A little gloom from our OMD colleagues. And remember, they can do everything we can do PLUS they have greater patient access and can do surgery.

Of course, this ophthalmogist is just a loser and a whiner too.......in a national magazine none-the-less (with a bit of a rosey glow at the end for editorial purposes).

http://www.ophmanagement.com/article.aspx?article=105853

That guy looks like Donny Osmond.

 

[KHE]

Agreed, optometry is not completely dead at this exact moment. But then, an entomologist friend of mine tells me a cockroach can live on for up to 3 months without its head. It just runs around, looking very alive, and it is, in a sense, but it has no head and will certainly die in short order. If you were weird enough to want to purchase an expensive exotic cockroach as a pet, would you buy one that had no head? It's still alive, technically, but would that be a smart move? Optometry, at this moment in time, is a headless cockroach - not dead yet but heading for certain demise. Right now,

So Jason,

If you had to do it all over again, what degree would you choose?

What degree or career out there would satisfy your needs?

 

[Jason K]

I wasn't aware that after obtaining your Od degree, you are also rewarded with a professional trolling degree. The fine use of italics and bold fonts in specific areas of text were probably key teachings of trollin' 101' and if used wisely would probably make it seem like the troll knew what they were talking about. Also, trolls have also mastered the art of whining and crying and often play the victim.

Did I miss anything?

In the words of Dwight Schrute, "You have been shunned."

*********Unshun*********** (with corresponding downward hand movement):

The reason for the shun is your unrelenting inability to participate with any degree of insight. You've been asked very direct questions which you refuse to answer. I have asked you for what you are basing YOUR misguided and unfounded opinions on, and you produce nothing but defensive responses that remind me of tactics used by liberal democrats in debates about taxation and entitlement programs. Tippytoe has politely asked what kind of data you actually ARE looking for since finite numbers collected by independent research bodies are apparently not acceptable to your high standards, but as of yet, nothing - just the usual repetitive nonsense. Instead of coming up with your own arguments, you just pick at the opposing side without any real info, just insults and denials. Have you read Nancy Pelosi's book? You sound just like her.

But, to answer your question, yes, you did miss something => you missed out on including any real information in your post, yet again. Sooooo....

*********Reshun*********** (with corresponding upward hand movement)

*********Unshun***********

Also, I rarely use itallics. I usually bold or underline. Learn the difference. And please stop capitalizing "optometry." It's a profession, not a name.

********** Reshun**********


Just for fun, what is a shun?? 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W433CbS6zww



-

 

[Jason K]

So Jason,

If you had to do it all over again, what degree would you choose?

What degree or career out there would satisfy your needs?

Honestly, if I could do it over again, I'd go dental. It's not perfect and it's suffering along with all most other health professions, but it's A LOT better than optometry. It's undoubtedly tougher for new dental grads now than it was 10 years ago, but they're way ahead of us on many levels. No damaging retail component, no competition from MDs, higher starting income, mid-career income, and end-career income, ability to specialize, and on and on.

I roomed with 3 predental students in college so many of my long-term friends are actually dentists at various places in their careers, some GPs and some specialists. They don't have anywhere near the problems we do in optometry. There are complaints, sure, but they pale in comparison to what we are dealing with. The most common complaints I hear from them are that their backs hurt after years in practice. So, there you have it. That's the degree that would satisfy my needs.

And let me just stop the influx of boo-hoo "the grass is greener" comments. Yes, believe it or not, some neighbors will have greener lawns than you do. It's true, sometimes, the other guy has it better and it's not a crime to point that out (especially when asked). So please, everyone spare me the predictable responses about how no one should complain about the other guy having a better situation. Sometimes, he does.

What's the acid-wash test? Ask some dentists if they regret going into their field. I don't know a single dentist who would trade his degree in for some other health profession degree, and believe me I've asked. Trade a DDS for an OD? Trade a DDS for a PharmD? How about an MD, DVM, or DPM? I'm sure there are miserable dentists out there just like there are miserable ODs, but I'd love to see the percentages from today, and more importantly, another 10 years from now.

 

[Tippytoe]

That guy looks like Donny Osmond.

Damn, your right.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Damn, your right.

thats really freaky 😱

 

[netmag]

I'll be honest and say that I somewhat understand these bitter ODs because I get what they're up to. However, I just don't agree with their methods and I don't think those methods will even work because it's so over the top and the agenda is so obvious that most people with even average intelligence won't bother listening anyway. Even if some of it was true, no information could be accepted from such a source by a thinking person.

You have people here who admit to bringing in 400K+ in one thread but whine about the field being dead in another. Perhaps because they aren't making as much or aren't as secure as dentists. Or perhaps because the profit margins on that 400K+ aren't high enough for them in spite of the recession. That might be a horrible problem for one person especially if they really didn't want to be an OD in the first place, but for other people who actually want to be an OD, it may not be enough of a deterrent.

Also, if you look back through the history of this forum,there have been ODs that pop in here from time to time with pretty much the exact same complaints since the time this forum was opened. It gets more increased during cycles of economic troubles but there's always been some. If you read those old posts, you'd think that Optometry should have been dead and gone a long time ago. It's been like that so long, that at this point, I'll only believe it when I actually see real news stories from credible news sources about Optometrists standing in unemployment lines or digging in dumpsters behind Walmart. Then, I'll believe it, but that's just me.

 

[yushin]

Honestly, if I could do it over again, I'd go dental. It's not perfect and it's suffering along with all most other health professions, but it's A LOT better than optometry. It's undoubtedly tougher for new dental grads now than it was 10 years ago, but they're way ahead of us on many levels. No damaging retail component, no competition from MDs, higher starting income, mid-career income, and end-career income, ability to specialize, and on and on.

I roomed with 3 predental students in college so many of my long-term friends are actually dentists at various places in their careers, some GPs and some specialists. They don't have anywhere near the problems we do in optometry. There are complaints, sure, but they pale in comparison to what we are dealing with. The most common complaints I hear from them are that their backs hurt after years in practice. So, there you have it. That's the degree that would satisfy my needs.

And let me just stop the influx of boo-hoo "the grass is greener" comments. Yes, believe it or not, some neighbors will have greener lawns than you do. It's true, sometimes, the other guy has it better and it's not a crime to point that out (especially when asked). So please, everyone spare me the predictable responses about how no one should complain about the other guy having a better situation. Sometimes, he does.

What's the acid-wash test? Ask some dentists if they regret going into their field. I don't know a single dentist who would trade his degree in for some other health profession degree, and believe me I've asked. Trade a DDS for an OD? Trade a DDS for a PharmD? How about an MD, DVM, or DPM? I'm sure there are miserable dentists out there just like there are miserable ODs, but I'd love to see the percentages from today, and more importantly, another 10 years from now.

O.K. Jason,

Didn’t you mention in your previous post that you had some medical issues that had prevented you from going to dental school?

Also (I think that I asked this question before, but did not receive an answer), would you enjoy working inside of someone’s mouth all day long? I sometimes get frustrated when doing an eye exam on young kids who do not pay attention. How about drilling on a tooth of a screaming kid who is being strapped to the chair?

Would you still choose dentistry over optometry if the money is the same?

 

[Jason K]

O.K. Jason,

Didn’t you mention in your previous post that you had some medical issues that had prevented you from going to dental school?

Also (I think that I asked this question before, but did not receive an answer), would you enjoy working inside of someone’s mouth all day long? I sometimes get frustrated when doing an eye exam on young kids who do not pay attention. How about drilling on a tooth of a screaming kid who is being strapped to the chair?

Would you still choose dentistry over optometry if the money is the same?

Yes, that's why I didn't go. The question was about what I would like to have done given the current state of both professions, not given my elbow issues. It's a theoretical prospect since it's an academic question anyway. So, while dentistry would not have been a good choice for me on a medical level, it would have been better for me professionally. I thought that was implied and understood, but apparently, it wasn't. I didn't want to invite more "whining" complaints from my shunnee by bringing up my elbow issue.

As for working in people's mouths all day? I have no problem with that. I've never understood why someone would say "Oh, I just couldn't stand the thought of working in someone's mouth all day!" Really? How about OB/GYNs, proctologists, ENTs, or even RNs for that matter. RNs have to do some of the most disgusting stuff you can imagine, especially in a hospital setting. Ever been in the room when a colostomy bag gets changed? There are navy seals out there who would wretch at the smell and run away in tears. So no, working in someone's mouth would not bother me. Of course, you're going to get that patient with the mouth you tell your buddies about after work, but we get that as ODs too. Ever see a hyperacute conjunctivitis patient? I'd take some bad breath over that any day.

 

[yushin]

Yes, that's why I didn't go. The question was about what I would like to have done given the current state of both professions, not given my elbow issues. It's a theoretical prospect since it's an academic question anyway. So, while dentistry would not have been a good choice for me on a medical level, it would have been better for me professionally. I thought that was implied and understood, but apparently, it wasn't. I didn't want to invite more "whining" complaints from my shunnee by bringing up my elbow issue.

As for working in people's mouths all day? I have no problem with that. I've never understood why someone would say "Oh, I just couldn't stand the thought of working in someone's mouth all day!" Really? How about OB/GYNs, proctologists, ENTs, or even RNs for that matter. RNs have to do some of the most disgusting stuff you can imagine, especially in a hospital setting. Ever been in the room when a colostomy bag gets changed? There are navy seals out there who would wretch at the smell and run away in tears. So no, working in someone's mouth would not bother me. Of course, you're going to get that patient with the mouth you tell your buddies about after work, but we get that as ODs too. Ever see a hyperacute conjunctivitis patient? I'd take some bad breath over that any day.

It seems that dentistry would've been a good choice for you. Too bad that you had the elbow problem.

Anyhow, my sister is a dentist (she actually chose dentistry because she couldn't get into medical school). Her dream was to become an E.R. doctor so nothing in dentistry seems to gross her out and she's pretty good at what she does and makes good money. However, unlike you, I don't think that I could do what she does day in and day out.

I'm glad that I chose optometry. It's relatively easier and a lot cleaner than dentistry. May be I feel this way because I went to one of the cheapest optometry schools long time ago (I think that I paid around $4000/year) and do O.K. financially while working only 4 days a week.

I do agree that paying 200K or more to get an O.D. degree is not a good investment as getting a DDS degree, but not everyone wants to become a dentist (or physician, for that matter) so optometry seems to me a viable option.

 

[Jason K]

I'm glad that I chose optometry. It's relatively easier and a lot cleaner than dentistry. May be I feel this way because I went to one of the cheapest optometry schools long time ago (I think that I paid around $4000/year) and do O.K. financially while working only 4 days a week.

I do agree that paying 200K or more to get an O.D. degree is not a good investment as getting an DDS degree, but not everyone wants to become a dentist (or physician, for that matter) so optometry seems to me a viable option.

If I paid 4K/yr for my OD, I would not be on this forum highlighting the problems with optometry - I can promise you that. I'd be doing something else since I could afford to leave the profession. At the very least, if I decided to stay in optometry, I'd be a lot more content. Even if my income never topped 75K, I'd probably be reasonably happy since student loan debt would not enter the equation. Just think, without interest, you could have gone to optometry school about 13 times before you would pay what I paid. With interest accounted for, you'd be looking at about 25x! I think that comparison says it all.

Maybe when my little "shunnee" finishes school, she'll be willing to help me pay my loans. After all, she has already figured out how to pay off 200K in 10 years on 80K in a totally "manageable" fashion, and she hasn't even graduated with a B.S. yet.

My suggestion to anyone who's considering dentistry or any surgical profession in which hands/arms/elbows/shoulders are important? Don't buy a bike when you're in college (and I don't mean the kind with pedals.) Your mother was right, you can kill yourself on those things!

 

[imemily]

Still waiting emily? What kind of facts do you want? I called your bluff. Are you embarrsed yet?

There really isn't any reason for me to embarrassed. After all, I am not the one stating bogus claims, nor do I envy my neighbor.

There aren't any facts to back up your claims, and you know. If there were, you would have posted it already and I would consider your claims as legitimate, and not a wet dream.

Anyways, since your second job is trolling SDN, a study, report or data, stating or implying CLEARLY, that optometry is declining or is already dead, should be plentiful.

 

[Jason K]

Anyways, since your second job is trolling SDN, a study, report or data, stating or implying CLEARLY, that optometry is declining or is already dead, should be plentiful.

Too bad. I thought my shunning technique would inspire the young imemily to post something with some substance, but I was mistaken. All we got was the same deflection that we've seen in every other post, totally void of any thought or insight. When people are saying college is a waste of money because BS grads are entering the workforce without the ability to think for themselves, maybe they're right?

***Disclaimer*** Please note that I am not addressing the future "US' most successful female OD" with this post and thus, my shun remains intact. Although, admittedly, by posting another of her complex, multi-layered quotes, I am skirting the borders of traditional Amish shun protocol.

 

[Shnurek]

Even if my income never topped 75K, I'd probably be reasonably happy since student loan debt would not enter the equation. Just think, without interest, you could have gone to optometry school about 13 times before you would pay what I paid. With interest accounted for, you'd be looking at about 25x! I think that comparison says it all.

Maybe when my little "shunnee" finishes school, she'll be willing to help me pay my loans.

So, basically your problem is that you made a bad fiscal decision as you did not have enough funds to afford an optometry degree and decided to do it anyway. Live with the consequences and stop being a crybaby.

I'll agree with you that anyone who spends 200k on an optometry degree is not the most intelligent individual UNLESS this happens to be a life passion.

Although I think (I hope) most people out there are more responsible with their money.

 

[OpticalBlackOut]

There's really no single answer to that question, in my opinion. The first step is to recognize that there is, in fact, a problem. What's done next is up to the individual and up to the larger organized bodies within the profession at the local, regional, and national level. For some individuals, it may be to take a job that pays the bills, or maybe just bite off more risk and take a chance. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't. For others, they might seek alternative careers within optometry or the eye care field as sales reps, practice consultants, government employees, or faculty positions at one of our 600 and counting optometry programs. (I hear the AZ school is hiring and I also hear a large portion of their faculty are fresh out of their residency training.) Others might leave the profession all together as predicted in the workforce study.

At the organized level, optometry, as a profession, needs to recognize that there are serious issues which need to be dealt with in order to reverse the trends that are affecting the profession. Those issues do not involve our ability to do ALT/SLT, Yag, or lid excisions. On the whole, I believe that we need to retrain the public to view eye care as the dentists have done for their field. People are far more concerned with their teeth than they are with their eye health, and the ADA can be thanked for that, in large part. Can we say the same about our AOA? I think not. We also need to restore the value of an OD - it has virtually disappeared since there are so many of us. It's evident in the paths new grads are taking and the decreasing pay they are getting. Closing down some programs (or not creating them in the first place) does not seem out of the question to me, personally, although I know full well that will never happen. Creating more incentives for students to migrate to places which could use some more ODs would help. There aren't enough of those in place and ODs are even excluded from some loan repayment programs which are designed to help just about every other health profession graduate. All in all, ODs need to take back the profession which is being taken from them by corporate, by insurance companies, by private OD programs interested in profit, and by the AOA which is watching the whole train wreck take place, seemingly doing nothing to stop it short of buying another workforce study for 2012.

I don't think anyone on here has an answer to your question that would apply to everyone. I guess we all just have to try to do what we can, pay our loans, and move forward. In the mean time, if I can save a few intelligent souls from making the same mistake that I did, I'd like to do so.

Thank you for the insightful and thoughtful response...I will definitely be proactive about private practice before my externships even start.

Now I'm confused as to why ODs continue to join the AOA and contribute to the organization if they are not doing anything that their members want?
Have they directly responded to the issue of new schools opening up, or are they still behind the stance that there is an under supply?

 

[imemily]

In the words of Dwight Schrute, "You have been shunned."

*********Unshun*********** (with corresponding downward hand movement):

The reason for the shun is your unrelenting inability to participate with any degree of insight. You've been asked very direct questions which you refuse to answer. I have asked you for what you are basing YOUR misguided and unfounded opinions on, and you produce nothing but defensive responses that remind me of tactics used by liberal democrats in debates about taxation and entitlement programs. Tippytoe has politely asked what kind of data you actually ARE looking for since finite numbers collected by independent research bodies are apparently not acceptable to your high standards, but as of yet, nothing - just the usual repetitive nonsense. Instead of coming up with your own arguments, you just pick at the opposing side without any real info, just insults and denials. Have you read Nancy Pelosi's book? You sound just like her.

But, to answer your question, yes, you did miss something => you missed out on including any real information in your post, yet again. Sooooo....

*********Reshun*********** (with corresponding upward hand movement)

*********Unshun***********

Also, I rarely use itallics. I usually bold or underline. Learn the difference. And please stop capitalizing "optometry." It's a profession, not a name.

********** Reshun**********


Just for fun, what is a shun?? 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W433CbS6zww



-

I find it funny that you put so much effort into your posts, yet only a handful of lines, if that, are actually read.

The story goes like this:

A couple of disgruntled ODs are upset with their career choice and blame the profession for their current situation. A prospective student questions their validity and asks for evidence as to why the profession is doomed. Since these ODs are very intelligent, savy, and good people to be around, they fulfill the students request and provide "strong", yet irrelevant facts. These so called facts included a proposed bill that will never become law, and a 10 year old study outlining saturation of ODs within this decade. The prospective student didn't know what to do - laugh at the so called facts which had nothing to do with Optometry's decline, since nothing in reports/study etc was explicitly stated, or cry at the sheer stupidity coupled with the childish stubbornness exhibited by these self-proclaimed Doctors of Optometry.

That above is a pretty accurate summary of what has recently transpired in this thread, minus the obvious sarcasm.

Ok, I will give you a break. I will consider your piss poor evidence as credible if you can identify and justify the implications in the manpower study or ANY other type of evidence/study/report/data. Just remember to leave out anecdotes and posts from the yahoo group optometry sucks.

Time's a-tickin'! Well, actually, on second thought, you aren't really seeing any patients so time should really not be an issue.

Good luck!

 

[Jason K]

So, basically your problem is that you made a bad fiscal decision as you did not have enough funds to afford an optometry degree and decided to do it anyway. Live with the consequences and stop being a crybaby.

I'll agree with you that anyone who spends 200k on an optometry degree is not the most intelligent individual UNLESS this happens to be a life passion.

Although I think (I hope) most people out there are more responsible with their money.

Shnurek, you just unwittingly insulted a large percentage of your classmates along with your current and future colleagues since many of them will have paid very near, or in some cases much more than 200K for their OD. Nice work.

Let's take a look here. You're a 1st year at SUNY (Ah, the good ol' days....such excitement, such enthusiasm, no clue of what lay in store for us after graduation.) But, I digress, so why don't we briefly review tuition and expenses for your program.

Tuition (out of state): $133,480 = 33,370 x 4
College Fee: $25.50
Student Activity Fee: $120
Technology Fee: $250
Instruments: $1,950
Books (1st yr only): $1,100
Rent (commuter): $34,320 = (715 x 12)x4 (avg subway commuter rent)
Other expenses: $19,640 = 4910 x 4
Board: $23,440 = 5860 x 4
TOTAL= $214,325.50

Ok, at this point, you're going to come back with "But out-of-staters will may be eligible for lowered tuition after 1st year!" Fine, let's do it again....

Tuition (out of state): $94,330 = (33,370 x 1)+(20,320 x 3)
College Fee: $25.50
Student Activity Fee: $120
Technology Fee: $250
Instruments: $1,950
Books (1st yr only): $1,100
Rent (commuter): $34,320 = (715 x 12)x4 (avg subway commuter rent)
Other expenses: $19,640 = 4910 x 4
Board: $23,440 = 5860 x 4
TOTAL= $175,175.50


Hey, that second number is awfully close to 200K, isn't it? Do a residency like I did and let your loans sit for a year while you make 30K and you'll be sitting pretty, just under 200K after your interest accrues. 😀 What was that again....something about you'd hope that people would be "more responsible with their money?" I'd be willing to bet there's quite a few folks in your class on that plan so I hope they're not reading. You're at a state-supported school, private programs are A LOT more expensive. You might want to run your numbers before you run your mouth next time.

 

[Jason K]

Thank you for the insightful and thoughtful response...I will definitely be proactive about private practice before my externships even start.

Now I'm confused as to why ODs continue to join the AOA and contribute to the organization if they are not doing anything that their members want?
Have they directly responded to the issue of new schools opening up, or are they still behind the stance that there is an under supply?

Many ODs just trudge along, paying their dues without knowing where their money really isn't going. Others are forced into it. Faculty members at optometry schools, for example, are often pressured into maintaining their memberships. More importantly, though, state optometric associations will not allow you to join unless you are active with the AOA. If you want to be a part of your state optometric association, you have to pay up for both.

As far as their direct response to the new school issue? If the higher-ups in the AOA really wanted to tackle the problem, it would get done. The OD political arm can be pretty strong when it wants to be. Oddly enough, ophthalmology cut its number of US residency positions by about 16% in the mid 1990s when their numbers were getting too high. That's the equivalent of 1 in 6 OD programs being closed tomorrow. Someone had the brains to say "Ok, people, there are too many ophthalmologists and in our own best interest, we need to trim it back a bit." And they did, wisely. Optometry, though? What do we do in the face of mounting saturation? Well, naturally, we open 5 more programs in the span of 2-3 years. The difference? Ophthalmology residencies are not created for the soul purpose of generating profit for private investors so when they need to get trimmed back, they get trimmed back for the benefit of the profession. When optometry realizes that ODs are in excess to an unhealthy level, the profession responds by opening more programs. It makes perfect sense if you look at the reason behind the new schools. It's not about training ODs or supply or anything like that. It's about money for investors, and that's it. Crazy.

You're doing the right thing, though. If you can line up a PP position before you graduate, you'll be miles ahead of many of your classmates as long as you can negotiate a fair package for yourself. Getting involved in your local optometric society, networking with prominent PP docs in your area, and putting the word out that you're looking for a position are good ways to get started while you're still in school.

 

[Shnurek]

Shnurek, you just unwittingly insulted a large percentage of your classmates along with your current and future colleagues since many of them will have paid very near, or in some cases much more than 200K for their OD. Nice work.

You're at a state-supported school, private programs are A LOT more expensive. You might want to run your numbers before you run your mouth next time.

Yes, I am aware of the costs. And I am going to repeat myself by saying if you do not have a passion for the sciences/helping people then you should not be going into optometry just for the money/lifestyle. I don't get why you just didn't delete the first irrelevant scenario. Shows me your efficiency. In any case, I know the numbers.

If I insult some people, well that's too bad. Its better they face the truth now than worry about it after they are 100k+ in debt already. Jason K you speak a lot of truth and this career choice looks great on paper but not so much in reality. However, personally I will not take out more than 50k in loans because I am more prudent with my money. Here's an interesting article: http://www.optstudent.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=92

 

[Tippytoe]

Optometry's TOP consultant just posted a very relevant (and timely) article on the oversupply of ODs. His solution: Take the few patients you have and cram them into 2 1/2 days and then go work in a nursing home for some extra income.

Oh well. Just another loser/whiner, right?. 🙄

http://www.optometric.com/mtotw/tip_new.asp?tip=492

Just for the record, the average OD practice sees TWELVE patients per day. He suggests that we need to see TWENTY FOUR per day!

 

[Jason K]

However, personally I will not take out more than 50k in loans because I am more prudent with my money.

Talk to me when mom doesn't cut off your bread crusts in the morning. Does she pack you a brown bag lunch, or do you roll with like a themed action hero pale, Captain America, perhaps? Or do you go more retro, like Night Rider or Airwolf? All kidding aside, you're smart for living at home. I would have if I had the chance. Not everyone has the luxury of in-state tuition and parents who will pay their bills until they're in their late 20s. I lived as frugally as I could during school. While many of my classmates lived in safe neighborhoods, I chose to live in an absolute ghetto with two friends to save money. It worked, but we lived next to a crack ***** for the better part of a year. I don't mean a skinny, stringy-haired, eccentric lady who blazed up occasionally, I'm talkin' an actual bona fide crack hoe. My apartment complex was like a never-ending episode of "Cops." I'd come back at least once a month and find some shady character handcuffed in my hallway. I got to know the beat cops in my neighborhood very well. My point is, not everyone can trim back as much as you do, good for you for doing so, but it doesn't make anyone who spends more than you a mindless spendthrift.

Yes, I am aware of the costs. And I am going to repeat myself by saying if you do not have a passion for the sciences/helping people then you should not be going into optometry just for the money/lifestyle.

My god, I love these comments about "passion for helping people" with the implied sentiment that "money doesn't matter." It's amusing that they never come from practicing ODs, they always seem to come from pre-optometry and optometry students who live in a dream world of parental credit cards, family cell phone plans, and free rent (in some cases). Shnurek, I'll say it again, no one goes into optometry only for money/lifestyle alone. I think that is well understood by most people on this forum. Medicine? Maybe until a decade or so ago, but few people even look at medicine as a cash cow any more, so optometry is not even on the radar as a highly lucrative healthcare career. People choose optometry for many reasons, but I'd guess that few would list high income as the top factor.

I don't get why you just didn't delete the first irrelevant scenario. Shows me your efficiency. In any case, I know the numbers.

Why on Earth would I delete it? The numbers are posted on your school's website and it demonstrates your schools cost ceiling (actually, it doesn't, I took the subway commuter's rent instead of the local estimate). The details state that some out of state students MAY be considered for reduced tuition, it doesn't say that they will be. So, there MAY be some students in the SUNY program who pay that much. The point is, you implied that anyone who pays close to 200K for their degree did so because of wasteful spending (I'm not disagreeing with you there, ultimately since I view the degree itself as a waste.) It's a little ironic that there are probably many people in your program who don't get out for much less than that. It's great that you can live at home with the folks without having to pay the bills, many people can't. Good for you. But when you finally do move out, things are going to be a little more difficult than you imagine, I can promise you that.

 

[PharmaTope]

Very true. But many ophthalmologists here have hired ODs to do the scut work and flush out the surgical stuff. Good for you guys. Soon you'll be able you have your very own OD or two for the price of a good receptionist. Hell, I will too.

Bring 'em on. Open more schools. I say put one on every corner beside each CVS or Walgreens.

might as well, pharmacist oversupply is wild right now as well. the PharmD and OD can sit and talk about how much their salary has dropped

 

[PharmaTope]

Yes, that's why I didn't go. The question was about what I would like to have done given the current state of both professions, not given my elbow issues. It's a theoretical prospect since it's an academic question anyway. So, while dentistry would not have been a good choice for me on a medical level, it would have been better for me professionally. I thought that was implied and understood, but apparently, it wasn't. I didn't want to invite more "whining" complaints from my shunnee by bringing up my elbow issue.

As for working in people's mouths all day? I have no problem with that. I've never understood why someone would say "Oh, I just couldn't stand the thought of working in someone's mouth all day!" Really? How about OB/GYNs, proctologists, ENTs, or even RNs for that matter. RNs have to do some of the most disgusting stuff you can imagine, especially in a hospital setting. Ever been in the room when a colostomy bag gets changed? There are navy seals out there who would wretch at the smell and run away in tears. So no, working in someone's mouth would not bother me. Of course, you're going to get that patient with the mouth you tell your buddies about after work, but we get that as ODs too. Ever see a hyperacute conjunctivitis patient? I'd take some bad breath over that any day.

big ****ing deal. nurse changes a ****bag. omg, they must be Christ resurrected again.

there are people doing more disgusting things out there than nurses for cash. it's called earning a living and trying to make it in this world. those nurses love their flexibility and lack of any accountability so changing a diaper, working 3 12 hour shifts, getting practically vacation time when you like, having a union, making good money, calling doctor when you need things done, sitting around eating on the floor, etc etc. list goes on and on.

 

[PharmaTope]

For all you future optometrists out there: Don't worry, Optomerry is alive and well! The bitter sounding optometrists on this thread are just trying to discourage more optometrists so they can compete less and bring in fatter paychecks. All my friends had no problem finding jobs all over the country right out of school for around 100K per year. Great profession, and excellent pay! Go for it!

avoid east coast then. you talk to anyone up the east coast they will say the EXACT OPPOSITE. i worked with an optometrist in pharmacy. she was a pharmacist that went back to become an optometrist. she was still working pharmacy in the evening bc optometry did not pay enough.

 

[Shnurek]

I chose to live in an absolute ghetto with two friends to save money. It worked, but we lived next to a crack ***** for the better part of a year. I don't mean a skinny, stringy-haired, eccentric lady who blazed up occasionally, I'm talkin' an actual bona fide crack hoe. My apartment complex was like a never-ending episode of "Cops." I'd come back at least once a month and find some shady character handcuffed in my hallway. I got to know the beat cops in my neighborhood very well.

I'm in a similar situation. I live in a partial ghetto near Harlem. I live in the worst apartment in the building with bars on my windows, I feel ya. But hell I love watching Cops and Hardcore Pawn lol. Probably because I grew up in a crappy neighborhood.

We all make sacrifices for our future and believe me I'd sure love to not live with my parents. I have a friend making 70k working at a prestigious financial company and he still lives with his parents. This is the situation in NYC. Everyone is cramped and I can't wait to get my degree and work somewhere else.

There are many people that believe the degree is worthless and I'd like to know how KHE convinced himself during his years off that he should persevere and not give up on his OD. I tried looking for his book to no avail. People say that Dentists are most likely to commit suicide, is this true?

 

[Jason K]

big ****ing deal. nurse changes a ****bag. omg, they must be Christ resurrected again.

there are people doing more disgusting things out there than nurses for cash. it's called earning a living and trying to make it in this world. those nurses love their flexibility and lack of any accountability so changing a diaper, working 3 12 hour shifts, getting practically vacation time when you like, having a union, making good money, calling doctor when you need things done, sitting around eating on the floor, etc etc. list goes on and on.

Did you even read my post? I love when people skim over posts, don't read the meaning behind them, and then get all up in a hussy ruffle and spout off some meaningless response. Read it again. I was stating that there's nothing wrong with getting a little dirt on your hands when you're in health care. It happens in virtually all fields. Let's change out of our sassy pants and read more slowly next time.

 

[Jason K]

People say that Dentists are most likely to commit suicide, is this true?

That stat is from the 1950s. My dental buddies laugh about it all the time.

 

[PharmaTope]

Did you even read my post? I love when people skim over posts, don't read the meaning behind them, and then get all up in a hussy ruffle and spout off some meaningless response. Read it again. I was stating that there's nothing wrong with getting a little dirt on your hands when you're in health care. It happens in virtually all fields. Let's change out of our sassy pants and read more slowly next time.

provide cliffs notes on your next post, you are too wordy

 

[Jason K]

Optometry's TOP consultant just posted a very relevant (and timely) article on the oversupply of ODs. His solution: Take the few patients you have and cram them into 2 1/2 days and then go work in a nursing home for some extra income.

Oh well. Just another loser/whiner, right?. 🙄

http://www.optometric.com/mtotw/tip_new.asp?tip=492

Just for the record, the average OD practice sees TWELVE patients per day. He suggests that we need to see TWENTY FOUR per day!

I think there are better ways to increase profits than those listed in the article by the whiny Dr Gailmard:

1) Why not try addressing the OD excess problem directly by hiring a few new OD grads to ride stationary generator bikes in an empty exam room or the break room? Those monthly power bills can get out of hand very quickly, but with human power, you'll be saving tremendously. Be sure to hire at least two, though. It will employ more ODs and they'll be able to keep themselves company. No need for A/C in the room, just rig up a passive gear-driven fan to each front wheel and have it blow in each rider's face. It'll keep 'em cool all day and save you and your patients a ton of cash, allowing you to focus on what really matters. You might want to think about wiring in a TV set into the system as well. It will get boring pretty quickly and you don't want them reconsidering that FT offer from Visionworks or America's Best.

2) If using hired ODs to generate power doesn't appeal to you, lighting candles instead of using electric lights will save on power bills and give your practice a more romantic feel, maybe even consider one of those flame-based retinoscopes from the late 1800s. And do you really NEED an expensive phoropter or would a nice set of ret bars get you pretty close? If insurance companies are going to pay us less for our work, maybe we should give them what they pay for? I have a clock dial that I've been meaning to blow the dust off for a while. Just a few alternative suggestions.

......Or the nursing home thing might work too, I suppose.

 

[KHE]

I think there are better ways to increase profits than those listed in the article by the whiny Dr Gailmard:

1) Why not try addressing the OD excess problem directly by hiring a few new OD grads to ride stationary generator bikes in an empty exam room or the break room? Those monthly power bills can get out of hand very quickly, but with human power, you'll be saving tremendously. Be sure to hire at least two, though. It will employ more ODs and they'll be able to keep themselves company. No need for A/C in the room, just rig up a passive gear-driven fan to each front wheel and have it blow in each rider's face. It'll keep 'em cool all day and save you and your patients a ton of cash, allowing you to focus on what really matters. You might want to think about wiring in a TV set into the system as well. It will get boring pretty quickly and you don't want them reconsidering that FT offer from Visionworks or America's Best.

2) If using hired ODs to generate power doesn't appeal to you, lighting candles instead of using electric lights will save on power bills and give your practice a more romantic feel, maybe even consider one of those flame-based retinoscopes from the late 1800s. And do you really NEED an expensive phoropter or would a nice set of ret bars get you pretty close? If insurance companies are going to pay us less for our work, maybe we should give them what they pay for? I have a clock dial that I've been meaning to blow the dust off for a while. Just a few alternative suggestions.

......Or the nursing home thing might work too, I suppose.

So Jason,

CLEARLY, you're dissatisfied with your career choice. Since you've only graduated a few years ago and are already this miserable, what are your plans for the future?

SURELY you must be looking into another career. Surely you're not staring down the barrel of 40 years of the optometry you hate so much.

So please.....tell KHE along with the millions (and millions) of KHE's fans......what are you going to do about your situation?

 

[Jason K]

So Jason,

CLEARLY, you're dissatisfied with your career choice. Since you've only graduated a few years ago and are already this miserable, what are your plans for the future?

SURELY you must be looking into another career. Surely you're not staring down the barrel of 40 years of the optometry you hate so much.

So please.....tell KHE along with the millions (and millions) of KHE's fans......what are you going to do about your situation?

Whoaaaa there, SOMEONE's got an ego! Do your followers march in unison in large rectangular formations? Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize most of your fans are pre-optometry and 1st year OD students, right?

As a matter of fact, I am trying to get out of my current situation, and I will. As much as I enjoy illuminating all of the shortcomings of optometry, I'm well aware that complaining doesn't advance one's situation. But then, I'm not on this thing to advance my situation, am I? I can do other things to accomplish that end and I am doing just that. Exactly what those are is really not any of KHE or KHE's millions of fans' business. I'm on here to reach a few clueless folks who might otherwise go into optometry based on the garbage data that's most easily accessed; the BLS report, the US News surveys,the AOA information, and the crap they're fed by private OD programs. I think that's what most of the "Negative Nellies" on here are doing.

Everyone involved in the debate has their own agenda for being on this site and both sides have their place. You, admittedly were once very unhappy with optometry and you got yourself out of it as you claim. I am not you. The "millions (and millions) of fans" you have are not you. Only you are you. Your platform on here seems to be that anyone in optometry can be enormously successful if they take the leap, bite off a massive additional loan, come up with a good business plan (a given), and figure out how to get people to want their services. I've seen people try to do just that, with disastrous results that don't just get brushed under the rug and go away for those folks. It all sounds so simple to an impressionable mind, but it's not. If all of your followers go into optometry thinking they'll be able to do what you say you did, many of them will be disappointed - there aren't enough solid practices for sale to go around for that purpose.

If someone listens to both sides and says "I can do it. I can get my OD, assume the risk, buy a good practice, and pull it off." Great - but at least they go in with the knowledge that it might be a little harder than they anticipated given the current state of the profession. If they crash and burn because the bottom drops out from under them, at least they knew what they were getting into.

The profession is diseased and distressed and instead of getting better, it's getting worse. Can you really tell me I'm wrong on that point? Do you think optometry is getting better with more programs opening every year, lower pay, and grads being forced into jobs they never intended to pursue? Other professions are in the same or even worse shape, but that's not my concern and it's no reason to avoid talking about the problems with optometry. What people are doing with their law degree or PhD in Asian Studies really doesn't matter to me. I don't think an OD is worth anywhere near what it costs these days and I think people who are considering one need to know the other side of the story. That's why I'm here - not to somehow better myself.

We're basically on here doing the same thing. When you have found something good, if you're a good person, you want to share your success with others. I get that. When you have stumbled on something bad, and you're a good person, you want to share that as well. Our experiences are different, but we're both trying to do the same thing. And both sides belong here, whether everyone likes it or not.

 

[Shnurek]

Whoaaaa there, SOMEONE's got an ego! Do your followers march in unison in large rectangular formations? Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize most of your fans are pre-optometry and 1st year OD students, right?

Chill the f out it was a joke. KHE is regarded as an intelligent poster here and there's an SDN article about him.

 

[KHE]

Whoaaaa there, SOMEONE's got an ego! Do your followers march in unison in large rectangular formations? Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize most of your fans are pre-optometry and 1st year OD students, right?

Jesus H. Christ. It was a joke. Hasn't anyone on here ever watched wrestling? 🙄

As a matter of fact, I am trying to get out of my current situation, and I will. As much as I enjoy illuminating all of the shortcomings of optometry, I’m well aware that complaining doesn’t advance one's situation. But then, I'm not on this thing to advance my situation, am I? I can do other things to accomplish that end and I am doing just that. Exactly what those are is really not any of KHE or KHE's millions of fans' business.

Well, wait a minute....you say that but later on you say this:

We're basically on here doing the same thing. When you have found something good, if you're a good person, you want to share your success with others. I get that. When you have stumbled on something bad, and you're a good person, you want to share that as well.

So if you've stumbled onto something good, and you're going to pursue it, why would you NOT share that with all the future Walmart ODs who are surely going to be miserable 5 years after graduation?

The profession is diseased and distressed and instead of getting better, it's getting worse. Can you really tell me I'm wrong on that point?

I don't think it's getting better or worse. It's getting very different, just as all health care professions are. For people that want to keep doing things the way they did 30, 20, 10 or even 5 years ago, they're probably not going to be happy.

Do you think optometry is getting better with more programs opening every year, lower pay, and grads being forced into jobs they never intended to pursue?

No. That part is definately getting worse and that's why it's important that people have a plan. If you have a plan, optometry can still be a rewarding and very lucrative career.

 

[yushin]

Chill the f out it was a joke. KHE is regarded as an intelligent poster here and there's an SDN article about him.

Actually, I'm a huge fan of KHK. LOL

 

[OpticalBlackOut]

Whoaaaa there, SOMEONE's got an ego! Do your followers march in unison in large rectangular formations? Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize most of your fans are pre-optometry and 1st year OD students, right?

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFAkmkfcTfU

 

[Jason K]

Jesus H. Christ. It was a joke. Hasn't anyone on here ever watched wrestling? 🙄

KHE, I missed the wrestling reference since I don't watch a lot of Thursday Night SmackDown, but OpticalBlackout hooked me up. (Thanks, dude.) I give a belated laugh.

Well, wait a minute....you say that but later on you say this:

So if you've stumbled onto something good, and you're going to pursue it, why would you NOT share that with all the future Walmart ODs who are surely going to be miserable 5 years after graduation?

I never claimed to have stumbled on anything. I'm not boarding my escape pod, rubbing my hands together, ready to jettison myself from the crippled spacecraft that is optometry. I'm working on it. But, you would have a valid point if I had already figured things out. Then, I'd agree, it would be hypocritical of me not to share, if not pretty selfish.

No. That part is definately getting worse and that's why it's important that people have a plan. If you have a plan, optometry can still be a rewarding and very lucrative career.

I've brought the point up several times, but no one has yet to answer my question about what's going to happen to all the new OD hopefuls who come out and can't find a miracle practice to buy for another 400-600K? 😱 Your platform seems to be that ODs should get out, form a business plan (which is required for any substantial business loan), borrow a few more hundred K, and make a go of it. But if all of your man-fans were to enter optometry school with that as a goal, the numbers virtually guarantee that there will not be enough to go around. The rest, end up at WalFart. So, what happens when all the good private practices are gone, but we still have people pouring into the profession at ever-increasing numbers? Even with your plan running at 100% success rate (every solid practice is bought up by a new OD hopeful), there will be large numbers of doomed ODs heading for the mills. What do you tell them?

Business plans are great, but success depends on a solid foundation for whatever it is that you're planning. If there's no solid foundation to the field, the risk is much higher. At some point, it becomes too high, and that point is different for everyone. I'd much rather take my 350K total investment and put it into something with better odds of paying out. (I'm going to preemptively request that I don't get 47 comments about what I think is a better investment than the great optometry. That question been asked and answered several times.)

 

[Jason K]

Actually, I'm a huge fan of KHK. LOL

Who are you a fan of?