Optometry not a good investment if you have more than $50,000 in federal loans

[deleted103644]

There's the problem with America nowadays. It wasn't always like this. Socialism corrupts the nation from the inside out and its already at full speed ahead here. When grandpa says, "Back in my day things were better". Well they truly were. How is Australia's minimum wage 2x our minimum wage? Because they remain isolationist, capitalist and don't play world police.

Sorry to invade this thread, but was curious what Shnurek was up to and caught this gem.

The very existence of a minimum wage is almost by definition anti-capitalist, and having a higher minimum wage would mean the exact opposite of what Shnurek was claiming.

Having a minimum wage is a socialist policy. If you like having one and/or think it should be higher, hate to break it to you but you're at least a little bit socialist.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Federal subsidized loans were just cut so all loans are unsubsidized at 6.8% interest compounded continuously starting immediately after the loan was taken out.

This means you add 31.25% to your loan from your first year's expenses to the total you will have to pay back, 22.63% for 2nd year, 14.57% for 3rd year and 7% for your 4th year.
.

Don't act like an authority unless you know what you're talking about. Federal loans are NOT "compounded continuously" immediately after the loan is taken out. The interest accrues at 6.8% while you're enrolled at least half time in school. It does ACCRUE daily...huge difference between accruing and compounding. The interest doesn't get added to the principle until the end of your deferment period. I'm pretty sure it doesn't re-capitalize after that but I can't find a good source for it.

http://www.staffordloan.com/stafford-loan-info/unsubsidized-student-loan.php
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/studentloans.jsp

 

[swtster]

my part-time job isn't optometry related. do you think that I would be okay graduating without working for an opt on my own? I feel like there's enough practice during the rotations?

I would highly recommend working as a pre-testing technician or optician selling glasses. I find this experience invaluable when it comes to trouble shooting problems with glasses. Also, I'll place a recommendation to an optical to prevent headaches from happening in the first place.

Also you have an opportunity to learn business aspects from a practice (good and bad traits). No one will teach you insurance billing in school, or how to deal with an upset patient/customer. You can role play all you want in school, but nothing replaces real life experience.

I completely agree with Ryan_eyeball.

I also want to add that before working for an ophthalmologist, I worked as a medical assistant for a number of physicians and specialists at a walk-in clinic. I learned and did everything from scheduling appointments, triaging patients, allergy testing, flu-shots, vaccinations, assisting out-patient surgical procedures, preparing samples for lab testing, inventory, and all the administrative tasks in between. But most importantly, I had to deal with sick patients everyday and that was the most valuable part of my experience. Most patients were pleasant and understanding, but there were some who were rude, manipulative, and disrespectful. I had to learn/adapt to deal with all sorts of people who walked through the door.

Looking back, I don't think I would've ever been hired to work for the ophthalmologist if I had never worked with patients before and developed those soft skills. Of course, you'll start learning these skills in school but it's totally different when you're on your own either working for yourself or somebody else. Patients can act differently or expect different things when they know you're a student versus when you're supposed to be a professional. I've had patients who deliberately tried to test my patience because I was the assistant and not the doctor.

 

[Shnurek]

I don't think I would've ever been hired to work for the ophthalmologist if I had never worked with patients before and developed those soft skills.

For me it was different. I graduated college and found a job with one ophthalmologist. I had no medical field experience before that at all and they were basically paying for my training. Then a week later I got a job offer at another ophthalmologist and I used that to my advantage as I negotiated higher pay from both. Finally, I went to the one that gave me the higher wage because she was really in need of a technician. I was basically thrown into the fray. I had to schedule patients, get their insurance, assist the other surgeons there, dilate patients, check their VAs, setup intravitreal injections, do OCT scans, do fundus photography w/ fluorescein. I learned the jist of everything in a couple of weeks but it was hectic!

It was a great learning experience and it seems weird to me when my fellow students get so hung up on even saying hi or getting the patients when they are shadowing. lol like c'mon if you are shy then this career might not be for you. Maybe trial by fire is a good way to break in.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

For me it was different. I graduated college and found a job with one ophthalmologist. I had no medical field experience before that at all and they were basically paying for my training. Then a week later I got a job offer at another ophthalmologist and I used that to my advantage as I negotiated higher pay from both. Finally, I went to the one that gave me the higher wage because she was really in need of a technician.

I wouldn't negotiate wages with a technician with no experience. After one year I would re-evaluate the situation. I find it's more beneficial to offer a % profit/goal bonuses. This way you're not tied into a wage increase, & the employee has incentives.

I would not hire an employee away from another OD/OMD. It displays they are loyal to money only, & will jump ship at the next higher employer without hesitation.

 

[Optomchick]

I would highly recommend working as a pre-testing technician or optician selling glasses. I find this experience invaluable when it comes to trouble shooting problems with glasses. Also, I'll place a recommendation to an optical to prevent headaches from happening in the first place.

Also you have an opportunity to learn business aspects from a practice (good and bad traits). No one will teach you insurance billing in school, or how to deal with an upset patient/customer. You can role play all you want in school, but nothing replaces real life experience.

Thanks for the advice, I know Opticians have to pass a couple tests and it seems like a bit of work to be certified. What do you need to do to be considered a "technician"? Is the process easy?

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

It varies state by state. Some states opticians are required to possess an ABO credential to sell,dispense, or fit glasses (NCLE for contacts). Some states require no credentialing for opticians. You could be flipping burgers one week at McDonalds then the next selling glasses.

On the job training will be provided for a pretesting tech (VA's, color vision, depth perception, fields, OCT's, fundus photography, etc). No credentialing required.

 

[Optomchick]

So my parents just dropped a bomb on me and said they're not going to pay for my apartment or any expenses because I have government loans. How do I explain that at $33,000 tuition + $7000 apartment and food = $40,000...is $160,000 and with interest $200,000...is going to be impossible to pay off

 

[Blondiechick919]

So my parents just dropped a bomb on me and said they're not going to pay for my apartment or any expenses because I have government loans. How do I explain that at $33,000 tuition + $7000 apartment and food = $40,000...is $160,000 and with interest $200,000...is going to be impossible to pay off

Good luck trying to budget a year's worth of rent and living expenses on $7000 in southern california. I found a $525/month rent in FL and I'm still budgeting $1000 a month to have a buffer for food, utilities, car expenses, etc. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Optomchick]

Good luck trying to budget a year's worth of rent and living expenses on $7000 in southern california. I found a $525/month rent in FL and I'm still budgeting $1000 a month to have a buffer for food, utilities, car expenses, etc. It's the nature of the beast.

Pomona, CA is a cheap area, I've found some places for 450-500$ for a single room. It's still going to be tough though, I don't even want to take $7000 extra!!! lol

 

[Blondiechick919]

Pomona, CA is a cheap area, I've found some places for 450-500$ for a single room. It's still going to be tough though, I don't even want to take $7000 extra!!! lol

I know it sucks, but it's better to take more than you think you'll need and have extra money than to have to bounce rent checks or have your electric cut off.

 

[KHE]

Pomona, CA is a cheap area, I've found some places for 450-500$ for a single room. It's still going to be tough though, I don't even want to take $7000 extra!!! lol

Get a job.

 

[thecgrblue]

So my parents just dropped a bomb on me and said they're not going to pay for my apartment or any expenses because I have government loans. How do I explain that at $33,000 tuition + $7000 apartment and food = $40,000...is $160,000 and with interest $200,000...is going to be impossible to pay off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzE76nUSjL8

b/c I have nothing else nice to say.

 

[Optomchick]

Get a job.

I have one.

 

[KHE]

What's the problem then? Surely you make more than $7000 per year?

 

[Shnurek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzE76nUSjL8

b/c I have nothing else nice to say.

lolol

 

[Optomchick]

What's the problem then? Surely you make more than $7000 per year?

Not really...it's very part time...plus once Optometry school starts, I can only work weekends anyways...

 

[KHE]

Not really...it's very part time...plus once Optometry school starts, I can only work weekends anyways...

Working weekends you should be able to EASILY clear $7000 per year.

 

[Optomchick]

Working weekends you should be able to EASILY clear $7000 per year.

Ya tell that to Kaplan, I make like $200 for a class, and they only have like 4 classes a year...I barely make $1000 lol. But I just don't think I could commit more than 8 hours a weekend anyways.

 

[Tippytoe]

Ya tell that to Kaplan, I make like $200 for a class, and they only have like 4 classes a year...I barely make $1000 lol. But I just don't think I could commit more than 8 hours a weekend anyways.

I haven't been following the conversation completely but speaking of jobs during OD school.........I parked cars at a nice restaurant and made great tips, worked for a funeral home picking up dead bodies and worked as a security guard. Not all at once.....but some simultaneously.

I didn't have anyone to pay my way so I really had to do it all on my own. As a matter of fact, one of my biggest surprises going to optometry school was how many students had mommy and daddy to pay for everything even giving them credit cards to use. WOW. Guess I was envious. But I was used to it. Been on my own since I was 16. You'll have time to work during optometry schools. It's not THAT difficult. Evenings and weekends could add up to 20-25 hours but you'll have to give up hanging with your friends and a little sleep, but if it's what you want, it's doable. Sucks. But doable.

Just one more thing to think about when going for a job (optometry) that isn't going to be that great in the end.

Hmmm.........,makes me wonder what other type of business you could start right out of high school with $200,000 working it 18 hours a day 7 days a week for 4 years.??

 

[KHE]

Ya tell that to Kaplan, I make like $200 for a class, and they only have like 4 classes a year...I barely make $1000 lol. But I just don't think I could commit more than 8 hours a weekend anyways.

Huh? So you teach Kaplan classes? And you get paid $200 and they have the classes four times a year?

Are you saying you work 4 days a year?

That's not a job.

 

[Optomchick]

Huh? So you teach Kaplan classes? And you get paid $200 and they have the classes four times a year?

Are you saying you work 4 days a year?

That's not a job.

No I get paid $200-300 for a one month class, so maybe working 4 months out of the year? Yeah it's not really the best job, but I'm not one of those people that can handle a job plus classes. I could barely handle the job now and I'm only taking 2 classes...I can't imagine working more with a full Optometry schedule. I'm going to have to think up a different plan. Also if I were to make more money, then I would have to put that on FAFSA and then I might not get the full $40,000 loan...

 

[QueenieCSS]

I'm not one of those people that can handle a job plus classes. I could barely handle the job now and I'm only taking 2 classes...I can't imagine working more with a full Optometry schedule. I'm going to have to think up a different plan. Also if I were to make more money, then I would have to put that on FAFSA and then I might not get the full $40,000 loan...

You would have to make a ridiculously large amount of money to not get the full loan. I worked 30 hours a week the year before I started optometry school while I finished up my pre-reqs and I still got the full loan amount.

I personally found that working one full weekend day a week is easier than working 2 - 3 hours on random days for work study. It may take up a big chunk of study time but having it all at once is a little easier. It is possible, you will just have to rework how you study once you get to opt school.

 

[Optomchick]

You would have to make a ridiculously large amount of money to not get the full loan. I worked 30 hours a week the year before I started optometry school while I finished up my pre-reqs and I still got the full loan amount.

I personally found that working one full weekend day a week is easier than working 2 - 3 hours on random days for work study. It may take up a big chunk of study time but having it all at once is a little easier. It is possible, you will just have to rework how you study once you get to opt school.

that's good to know, so I could still get the full $42,000 even if I made...15,000? haha do you mind if I ask how much you made?

 

[QueenieCSS]

that's good to know, so I could still get the full $42,000 even if I made...15,000? haha do you mind if I ask how much you made?

I made just under $14K in the 7 months before I started opt school. I also worked the summer between first and second year and with that and work study I made around $5000. But cost of living doesn't including paying for rent, food and stuff during the summer so some of that money went to cover those costs since I had a year long lease on my apartment.

Needless to say, it is possible to work during school, you just have to budget your time accordingly. I have plenty of friends who work to make up living costs. No one works full time in optometry school by working 8-10 hours a week is totally manageable if you aren't super active in clubs and other activities.

 

[KHE]

No I get paid $200-300 for a one month class, so maybe working 4 months out of the year? Yeah it's not really the best job, but I'm not one of those people that can handle a job plus classes. I could barely handle the job now and I'm only taking 2 classes...I can't imagine working more with a full Optometry schedule. I'm going to have to think up a different plan. Also if I were to make more money, then I would have to put that on FAFSA and then I might not get the full $40,000 loan...

What??

So you make $1000 for 4 months worth of work?

I had a paper route when I was 12 that paid more than that.

Get a part time job on the weekends waiting tables or tending bar or something and you'll make good cash money under the table.

 

[Blondiechick919]

Get a part time job on the weekends waiting tables or tending bar or something and you'll make good cash money under the table.

I do promo modeling and cocktail waitressing and clear $400-$500 in tips in one night sometimes.

 

[KHE]

I do promo modeling and cocktail waitressing and clear $400-$500 in tips in one night sometimes.

You won't make that much as an optometrist. You should keep that job and bag the optometry school thing.

 

[thecgrblue]

What??

So you make $1000 for 4 months worth of work?

I had a paper route when I was 12 that paid more than that.

Get a part time job on the weekends waiting tables or tending bar or something and you'll make good cash money under the table.

. I was making $300/month as a 10 year old on my route. Christmas time was tip HEAVEN. My mother, in her infinite wisdom, stuck most of it in the bank.

I do promo modeling and cocktail waitressing and clear $400-$500 in tips in one night sometimes.

Dang it. I got $13/hr being the muscle in a mental institution. Damn testosterone, screwed me over financially in utero.

 

[Blondiechick919]

Haha, if only I was able to have that as a full-time gig. It's more like once a week, sometimes every other. But the extra cash is helpful

 

[eyedoc75]

what school do you go to optomchick?

 

[Optomchick]

what school do you go to optomchick?

WesternU in Cali. I'm saving a lot of $ on plane tickets cause I live relatively close to the school.

 

[layogurt]

I think the problem is that optometrists and pharmacists want to live the doctor lifestyle without getting their hands dirty. They want a profession that would command a similar paycheck and level of professionalism, but without doing the "messy stuff" i.e. dealing with blood or any real hands on care. Neither are good financial investments. I just went to the Western website and noticed that price tag to be around $250K for 4 years that's unbelievable and crazy! Why would anyone spend $250K to earn $75K - $100K a year. I really believe students should consider the financial responsibility they're getting themselves into. For nearly the same price and time you can go to plenty of other programs that will offer a significantly better ROI. Dental and Medical schools are better options and a PA program is even better. Even Western's own DO program costs $311K which is only $50K more to become a Medical Doctor and command a much higher salary. I can't thank this board enough for making me realize that Optometry is not the right choice for me.

 

[Shnurek]

That's why I'm in it to start a medical eye practice. Get a residency in ocular disease, move to a state with a wide scope of practice for ODs, and where an OD is actually needed and bill medical at the same rates as an ophthalmologist. To make more than the average OD. Also you have to consider the salaries per hours worked are about the same for optometry and family medicine. Around $50 an hour or so.

 

[Jason K]

That's why I'm in it to start a medical eye practice. Get a residency in ocular disease, move to a state with a wide scope of practice for ODs, and where an OD is actually needed and bill medical at the same rates as an ophthalmologist. To make more than the average OD. Also you have to consider the salaries per hours worked are about the same for optometry and family medicine. Around $50 an hour or so.

Shnurek, you're delusional again and it's showing. Your plan to set up the Shnurek Ophthalmology Clinic is predicated on there being sufficient patients to make it work. As Tippytoe has pointed out before, you can't relocate to some remote corner of the earth and expect to have patients knock down your door. If you're rural, there probably won't be a doc there, not because no one wants to live there, but because other docs have decided it doesn't make sense to move into a town of 300 people and set up a clinic that will only survive on 2000 patient encounters per year.

You're trying to cram optometry into a mold that it doesn't fit into. You'll see that soon enough. Also, for what it's worth, I have no idea where you got your numbers regarding family doc pay. I know starting salaries for MDs doing primary care/family practice are a lot higher than 50/hr. Young MDs in a FP setting, in my area start out at around 125K with full benefits. You know what's also nice? They actually have jobs to fill. They don't have to sign up with 9 "optometry employment" websites and then end up relocating to some state 2000 miles away to take some crap job with a commercial employer. That's also a bonus of having an MD - not having to move to the moon to find work. Just a little aside.

It's refreshing to see that there are some prospects out there, like layogurt, who can actually look at the data and interpret them for what they are, not for what they want them to be. That seems to be a rare attitude on this site, at least from those who actually post.

 

[deleted103644]

In case you're curious what physicians make per hour, here's an interesting post:

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/what-do-physicians-make-on-an-hourly-basis/

Shnurek is obviously deluded (how has he not been banned yet?), but he wasn't that far off. FP docs average $78/hr (and that probably doesn't include overhead).

Specialty Income Work Hours per Week Work Hours per Year (X 48) Income Per Hour
Anesthesiology $389,000 59 2832 $137
Cardiology $472,000 55* 2640 $179
Dermatology $308,000* 44 2112 $146
Emergency Medicine $255,000 44 2112 $121
Family Practice $191,000 51 2448 $78
Gastroenterology $472,000 55* 2640 $179
General Surgery $326,000 58 2784 $117
Hospitalist $217,000 44* 2112 $103
Internal Medicine $226,000 55 2640 $86
Neurology $257,000 54 2592 $99
OB/GYN $297,000 59 2832 $105
Ophthalmology $314,000* 45 2160 $145
Orthopedic Surgery $503,000 56 2688 $187
Otolaryngology $389,000 52 2496 $156
Pathology $248,000* 44 2112 $117
Pediatrics $193,000 52 2496 $77
Psychiatry $207,000 46 2208 $94
Pulmonology $310,000 55* 2640 $117
Radiology $478,000 56 2688 $178
Urology $423,000 59 2832 $149

 

[layogurt]

Shnurek, you're delusional again and it's showing. Your plan to set up the Shnurek Ophthalmology Clinic is predicated on there being sufficient patients to make it work. As Tippytoe has pointed out before, you can't relocate to some remote corner of the earth and expect to have patients knock down your door. If you're rural, there probably won't be a doc there, not because no one wants to live there, but because other docs have decided it doesn't make sense to move into a town of 300 people and set up a clinic that will only survive on 2000 patient encounters per year.

You're trying to cram optometry into a mold that it doesn't fit into. You'll see that soon enough. Also, for what it's worth, I have no idea where you got your numbers regarding family doc pay. I know starting salaries for MDs doing primary care/family practice are a lot higher than 50/hr. Young MDs in a FP setting, in my area start out at around 125K with full benefits. You know what's also nice? They actually have jobs to fill. They don't have to sign up with 9 "optometry employment" websites and then end up relocating to some state 2000 miles away to take some crap job with a commercial employer. That's also a bonus of having an MD - not having to move to the moon to find work. Just a little aside.

It's refreshing to see that there are some prospects out there, like layogurt, who can actually look at the data and interpret them for what they are, not for what they want them to be. That seems to be a rare attitude on this site, at least from those who actually post.

Good point Jason. The numbers DONT lie, plain and simple. I think the problem is that our society doesn't teach students the value of money. Most students don't understand the fiscal responsibility of taking out loans, they don't know how to calculate their monthly payment, and most students don't even take the time to setup a budget and live by it.

That also ties back to real world expectation, optomochick (assuming she is living off campus without her parents) is going to spend 260K (pre-interest) on her education.

Let's calculate her monthly payments after graduation: (this includes a 5% increase in tuition and housing for each year)
Stafford Loans: 30K + 1% Origination Fees for 4 years = 121K pre-interest for all 4 years
Grad Plus Loans: Difference between 30K from Stafford and the remainder of the tuition + 4% Origination Fees = 135K pre-interest for all 4 years

Then we have to use a loan capitalization calculator to calculate her capitalized interest which she's in school, since the interest will keep accumulating while she is studying. So the Stafford loan goes from 121k uncapitalized to 144K capitalized. Now let's calculate the Grad Plus loans they go from 135K uncapitalized to 164K capitalized

Monthly Payment:
Stafford: 144K at 6.8% for 10 years = $1,657.27
Grad Plus: 164K at 7.9% for 10 years = $1,984.71
Total Monthly Payment: $3,642

Her educational cost: 256K (Assuming a 5% increase in tuition and living) pre interest to 436K post interest! WOW HALF A MILLION DOLLARS!

If she earns anywhere from 75k to 90K she will be in the top bracket for federal taxes, then there are state and local taxes, plus 401K, medical insurance, etc. The fair assumption would be a 37% reduction for the above mentioned items. That would leave her with 75*.63= $47,250 post tax salary when you divide that by 26 weeks that equals a bi-weekly paycheck of $1,811 x 2 checks a month = $3,634K this leaves her $10 short of her monthly payment and no funds to pay for food, rent, etc. Assuming she get's lucky and find a starting salary of 90K a year that would equal 90*.63 = $56,700 a year post tax when divided by 26 weeks = $2,180 bi weekly check x 2 checks a month = $4,361 minus the monthly payment of $3,642 = $719 a month which isn't enough to cover rent, food, car. etc.

Again this isn't bashing but a wake up call on how expensive OD schools really are. Salaries cannot keep up with these exorbitant educational costs. And what justification can students offer themselves when they're facing loans of nearly 4K a month when they're only making about 4.5K a month (post tax.) These numbers might be lower if she gets a roommate but if she wants to live solo then this will be a very close approximation of the costs incurred.

 

[Shnurek]

johnnydrama those salary figures are inflated.

layogurt you are completely correct and people that take out so many loans are a major problem for our profession ( jasonk, optomchick, and about 30% of my class - cant imagine what it is for other more expensive schools)

 

[deleted103644]

johnnydrama those salary figures are inflated.

Not inflated, outdated. This was calculated from a 2003 survey, because there hasn't been a recent survey that includes average work hours per week for all those specialties.

For 9 years ago, those salaries were reasonable.

And might I add you are not an MD student much less an MD, and it is clear that your OD colleagues also find you unreliable.

If you can find a better survey, feel free to share (I'll even calculate the hourly wages since I'm curious).

Otherwise, please be quiet.

 

[Optomchick]

Good point Jason. The numbers DONT lie, plain and simple. I think the problem is that our society doesn't teach students the value of money. Most students don't understand the fiscal responsibility of taking out loans, they don't know how to calculate their monthly payment, and most students don't even take the time to setup a budget and live by it.

That also ties back to real world expectation, optomochick (assuming she is living off campus without her parents) is going to spend 260K (pre-interest) on her education.

Let's calculate her monthly payments after graduation: (this includes a 5% increase in tuition and housing for each year)
Stafford Loans: 30K + 1% Origination Fees for 4 years = 121K pre-interest for all 4 years
Grad Plus Loans: Difference between 30K from Stafford and the remainder of the tuition + 4% Origination Fees = 135K pre-interest for all 4 years

Then we have to use a loan capitalization calculator to calculate her capitalized interest which she's in school, since the interest will keep accumulating while she is studying. So the Stafford loan goes from 121k uncapitalized to 144K capitalized. Now let's calculate the Grad Plus loans they go from 135K uncapitalized to 164K capitalized

Monthly Payment:
Stafford: 144K at 6.8% for 10 years = $1,657.27
Grad Plus: 164K at 7.9% for 10 years = $1,984.71
Total Monthly Payment: $3,642

Her educational cost: 256K (Assuming a 5% increase in tuition and living) pre interest to 436K post interest! WOW HALF A MILLION DOLLARS!

If she earns anywhere from 75k to 90K she will be in the top bracket for federal taxes, then there are state and local taxes, plus 401K, medical insurance, etc. The fair assumption would be a 37% reduction for the above mentioned items. That would leave her with 75*.63= $47,250 post tax salary when you divide that by 26 weeks that equals a bi-weekly paycheck of $1,811 x 2 checks a month = $3,634K this leaves her $10 short of her monthly payment and no funds to pay for food, rent, etc. Assuming she get's lucky and find a starting salary of 90K a year that would equal 90*.63 = $56,700 a year post tax when divided by 26 weeks = $2,180 bi weekly check x 2 checks a month = $4,361 minus the monthly payment of $3,642 = $719 a month which isn't enough to cover rent, food, car. etc.

Again this isn't bashing but a wake up call on how expensive OD schools really are. Salaries cannot keep up with these exorbitant educational costs. And what justification can students offer themselves when they're facing loans of nearly 4K a month when they're only making about 4.5K a month (post tax.) These numbers might be lower if she gets a roommate but if she wants to live solo then this will be a very close approximation of the costs incurred.

I'm not taking the grad plus loan. I'm taking 40K of the stafford loans each year and praying that Obama brings back subsidized loans next year lol. So 160K without interest. (I'm too lazy to calculate interest if someone wants to do that for me and show me a break down of how much I'm going to pay each month).

"Monthly Payment:
Stafford: 144K at 6.8% for 10 years = $1,657.27" That seems kind of doable. And I'll probably have roommates/live with BF so that will cut down on costs as well.

I'd just like to point out that I barely got into Optometry school, right before Western gets accredited. I don't think I would get into a DO or Dental school, so I have no other options. Anyone with a >3.3 GPA would be stupid to go to Optometry school, but my sad 3.0 GPA/ 2.8 science leaves me no choice. And I totally bombed some of my interviews, so apparently I don't have good interview skills to make up for the low GPA.

 

[Shnurek]

my sad 3.0 GPA/ 2.8 science leaves me no choice

This is why established optometrists hate the new schools so much. They are in it just for the money. They let in sub-par students like you because the smarter students realize that it is not a good investment. I don't mean to insult your intelligence all I'm saying is that not everyone who can get in should go just because they got in. Its no longer about if you can get in. Its more about whether you can afford it.

Leaves you no other choice? How about working full time? That's not a choice? You'd have A LOT less debt and you'd be in a lower tax bracket so you'd take home a higher percentage of what you earn. Why overextend yourself if you can't support it?

 

[Optomchick]

This is why established optometrists hate the new schools so much. They are in it just for the money. They let in sub-par students like you because the smarter students realize that it is not a good investment. I don't mean to insult your intelligence all I'm saying is that not everyone who can get in should go just because they got in. Its no longer about if you can get in. Its more about whether you can afford it.

Leaves you no other choice? How about working full time? That's not a choice? You'd have A LOT less debt and you'd be in a lower tax bracket so you'd take home a higher percentage of what you earn. Why overextend yourself if you can't support it?

There really aren't jobs these days you can do with a BS degree. I don't want to work in a lab all day. If I'm making the same amount of money, I'd rather be an OD anyways. Maybe you're just mad that you wasted your high GPA on Optometry school when you clearly want to be a medical doctor.

 

[jblil]

... praying that Obama brings back subsidized loans next year lol.

Considering the financial situation the country is in, this is a pipe dream.

 

[deleted103644]

Considering the financial situation the country is in, this is a pipe dream.

The real problem is that governing loans are going to diploma mills (not specific to optometry).

We could bring them back if we restrict them to schools that produce graduates who can actually pay them back. The current rules are far too loose.

 

[Shnurek]

The real problem is that governing loans are going to diploma mills (not specific to optometry).

We could bring them back if we restrict them to schools that produce graduates who can actually pay them back. The current rules are far too loose.

Yeah, the government just needs to back off and stop throwing money to every person that wants to study in an undergraduate or graduate institution. The schools just jack up their tuition (300% in the last 10 years) because anyone with a pulse can get government loans. Laissez-faire capitalism is what I support. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Let the world (or even the US economy) balance itself out naturally.

There really aren't jobs these days you can do with a BS degree. I don't want to work in a lab all day. If I'm making the same amount of money, I'd rather be an OD anyways. Maybe you're just mad that you wasted your high GPA on Optometry school when you clearly want to be a medical doctor.

That is a common accusation about me. I honestly was not sure if I wanted to be an M.D. I however chose the O.D. pathway and never looked back. I never took the MCAT or thought about applying to M.D. programs. I knew I'd just be doing it for the money/prestige and not really doing what I love. Maybe neuro-ophthalmology I would have loved but optometry is not so far off of that.

 

[deleted103644]

Maybe neuro-ophthalmology I would have loved but optometry is not so far off of that.

You're a nut.

A dentist would have about as much of a right to call himself a neuro-ophthalmologist as you will.

It sounds like you really didn't research your career path very well.

 

[Jason K]

Maybe neuro-ophthalmology I would have loved but optometry is not so far off of that.

Yes, yes.....practically the same profession really. Oh, except for the $200K+ salary difference and the fact that none of them work at Walmart, but that's splitting hairs. Let's see, for a 25 year career, that's about $5M more in income potential, not to mention a virtually infinitely higher career diversity potential. Oooooooo.....but med school costs like 80K more than an OD so clearly that's a bad idea from a financial perspective. And my god, you might have to spend as much as 3 more years as a resident - oh the humanity! And all you'd get would be a measly $5M and immeasurable career diversity compared to optometry? I can see why a prudent mind would choose an OD over an MD based on the finances - makes a ton of sense.

Shnurek, as an OD, you're not going to be doing much of anything that resembles what a neuro-ophtho will be doing on a daily basis, other than being able to claim that you "examine patients visual systems." You might as well be an line worker at a GM factory who says he pretty much does the same thing as the guys designing the cars on the line.

God, dude - I actually feel for you. Looking back, I know how unbelievably clueless I was as a 1st year student, but you're off in a different stratosphere. You really should have tried to get into med school. If you didn't have the grades for allopathic, then you should have gone for the DO.

It's becoming more and more clear that you do not know that optometry is a very small swimming pool. You seem to think it's the Atlantic ocean. The people who will be happy in the optometry of tomorrow will be the folks who are content working in a refraction mill for 75K/yr. That's where the profession is going.

Based on the things you write on this forum, it appears you are most definitely not one of those people.

 

[OpticalBlackOut]

Good point Jason. The numbers DONT lie, plain and simple. I think the problem is that our society doesn't teach students the value of money. Most students don't understand the fiscal responsibility of taking out loans, they don't know how to calculate their monthly payment, and most students don't even take the time to setup a budget and live by it.

That also ties back to real world expectation, optomochick (assuming she is living off campus without her parents) is going to spend 260K (pre-interest) on her education.

Let's calculate her monthly payments after graduation: (this includes a 5% increase in tuition and housing for each year)
Stafford Loans: 30K + 1% Origination Fees for 4 years = 121K pre-interest for all 4 years
Grad Plus Loans: Difference between 30K from Stafford and the remainder of the tuition + 4% Origination Fees = 135K pre-interest for all 4 years

Then we have to use a loan capitalization calculator to calculate her capitalized interest which she's in school, since the interest will keep accumulating while she is studying. So the Stafford loan goes from 121k uncapitalized to 144K capitalized. Now let's calculate the Grad Plus loans they go from 135K uncapitalized to 164K capitalized

Monthly Payment:
Stafford: 144K at 6.8% for 10 years = $1,657.27
Grad Plus: 164K at 7.9% for 10 years = $1,984.71
Total Monthly Payment: $3,642

Her educational cost: 256K (Assuming a 5% increase in tuition and living) pre interest to 436K post interest! WOW HALF A MILLION DOLLARS!

If she earns anywhere from 75k to 90K she will be in the top bracket for federal taxes, then there are state and local taxes, plus 401K, medical insurance, etc. The fair assumption would be a 37% reduction for the above mentioned items. That would leave her with 75*.63= $47,250 post tax salary when you divide that by 26 weeks that equals a bi-weekly paycheck of $1,811 x 2 checks a month = $3,634K this leaves her $10 short of her monthly payment and no funds to pay for food, rent, etc. Assuming she get's lucky and find a starting salary of 90K a year that would equal 90*.63 = $56,700 a year post tax when divided by 26 weeks = $2,180 bi weekly check x 2 checks a month = $4,361 minus the monthly payment of $3,642 = $719 a month which isn't enough to cover rent, food, car. etc.

Again this isn't bashing but a wake up call on how expensive OD schools really are. Salaries cannot keep up with these exorbitant educational costs. And what justification can students offer themselves when they're facing loans of nearly 4K a month when they're only making about 4.5K a month (post tax.) These numbers might be lower if she gets a roommate but if she wants to live solo then this will be a very close approximation of the costs incurred.

This post is great, and I think it has 'sticky' potential.
Far too many prospective students push financial aid to the side because it seems confusing and don't think about how much they are actually borrowing until it's time to pay it back.

 

[layogurt]

I'm not taking the grad plus loan. I'm taking 40K of the stafford loans each year and praying that Obama brings back subsidized loans next year lol. So 160K without interest. (I'm too lazy to calculate interest if someone wants to do that for me and show me a break down of how much I'm going to pay each month).

"Monthly Payment:
Stafford: 144K at 6.8% for 10 years = $1,657.27" That seems kind of doable. And I'll probably have roommates/live with BF so that will cut down on costs as well.

I'd just like to point out that I barely got into Optometry school, right before Western gets accredited. I don't think I would get into a DO or Dental school, so I have no other options. Anyone with a >3.3 GPA would be stupid to go to Optometry school, but my sad 3.0 GPA/ 2.8 science leaves me no choice. And I totally bombed some of my interviews, so apparently I don't have good interview skills to make up for the low GPA.

Not much changed I did the math for you since you don't know or care how to count your money. A roommate will only allow you to split the rent in half. All other expenses remain neutral. I believe you can only take 30K from Stafford for Optometry school, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Your Monthly Payment will be
Stafford: $1,657
Grad Plus: $1,710
Total Monthly Payment: $3,367
3,367 * 120 pmts = $404,040 for your OD education

As I said above you'll earn either 75K which is around $3,634 a month meaning you'll have $267 left over afterwards. You can't live off $267. However if you earn 90K which is around $4,361 you'll have about $1,000 left over per month. This will barely cover rent, food, going out, etc. You'll probably have to live at home or with someone and you'll probably need to extend your loans to 30 years just so you can pay them off.

Personally I think Dental Hygiene is a better route, if you'd enjoy doing that. It's a 2 year program that might cost you around 20 to 30K and afterwards you can expect to make anywhere from $35 to $50 per hour. $35 per hour = $72,800 or $50 per hour = $104,000. Now that's what I call a good financial investment, 6 years of schooling and loans worth bout 50K to yield a 75K to 100K salary.

 

[Optomchick]

Not much changed I did the math for you since you don't know or care how to count your money. A roommate will only allow you to split the rent in half. All other expenses remain neutral. I believe you can only take 30K from Stafford for Optometry school, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Your Monthly Payment will be
Stafford: $1,657
Grad Plus: $1,710
Total Monthly Payment: $3,367
3,367 * 120 pmts = $404,040 for your OD education

As I said above you'll earn either 75K which is around $3,634 a month meaning you'll have $267 left over afterwards. You can't live off $267. However if you earn 90K which is around $4,361 you'll have about $1,000 left over per month. This will barely cover rent, food, going out, etc. You'll probably have to live at home or with someone and you'll probably need to extend your loans to 30 years just so you can pay them off.

Personally I think Dental Hygiene is a better route, if you'd enjoy doing that. It's a 2 year program that might cost you around 20 to 30K and afterwards you can expect to make anywhere from $35 to $50 per hour. $35 per hour = $72,800 or $50 per hour = $104,000. Now that's what I call a good financial investment, 6 years of schooling and loans worth bout 50K to yield a 75K to 100K salary.

I keep telling you I'm NOT taking the grad plus loan! They offered me up to $42k Stafford, but I'm taking 40k/year.