organic I vs. organic II w/lab? level of difficulty?

[yesnomaybe]

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I just started an organic chemistry class 10 years after taking my first college science courses.

I have heard so many horror stories about this class and in particular, the teachers at my school. That said, I figure if I devoted my life to it I could do well... even if the kids around me all had failed it themselves twice before.

Our first quiz was a 20 minute timed test. Knew my stuff, but not fast enough. I got a D. Ugh. The second quiz, I studied so much I knew the material backwards and forwards. I got a low B. Neither grade reflects what I feel I know which is frustrating. It also makes me worry about what's coming up ---- organic chem II! Do you have any advice? Do I retake chemistry I and II THEN try again? I was really hoping to get an A so I had a better chance of getting into vet school in the future.

And with the organic chemistry II lab --- I haven't set foot in a lab since 2001. Is there any lab manual I can brush up on general lab rules (perhaps how to light the bunsen burner. ha)

 

[yesnomaybe]

Since I don't have any friends who are in the science field, I guess I just need the opinion of someone who's been there. Am I doomed or am I okay? I tend to think the worst in every situation. 😀

 

[yesnomaybe]

Since I don't have any friends who are in the science field, I guess I just need the opinion of someone who's been there. Am I doomed or am I okay? I tend to think the worst in every situation. 😀

Not to spam my own thread, but I feel if I was at the community college I could get an easy A. I took biology and genetics and got 100% on most of my tests. I moved to the university because an advisor at the vet school I wanted to apply for told me it would look better. Sigh!

 

[LetItSnow]

Not to spam my own thread, but I feel if I was at the community college I could get an easy A. I took biology and genetics and got 100% on most of my tests. I moved to the university because an advisor at the vet school I wanted to apply for told me it would look better. Sigh!

I've never been a fan of timed tests, but in their defense they force you to not just know the material, but know it so well you can manipulate the knowledge quickly.

I wouldn't assume that the CommCollege class would be an easy A. That wasn't *my* experience, anyway. I did my undergrad at a respected, local private college, and finished up my vet school pre-reqs at a community college; so I've seen both sides of the fence. I had to take Orgo I in 7 weeks (2 chapters per week, yippee) at the CC. Sure, I got an A, but it was far more work than any of my classes at the private school. And, the professor teaching most of the orgo classes at my CC *also* teaches orgo at the university - hard to believe there's much difference in her classes.

Personally, I'd want to have second semester gen chem fresh in mind before I took orgo. I think having the acid-base chem, vsepr theory, etc. all fresh in mind is useful for orgo (and biochem). (Isn't most of that stuff second semester gen chem at most places? I remember all the material, but not necessarily which class I learned it in....)

In the end, nobody will be able to tell you the right answer. Do YOU think you can ramp up quickly enough to pull through with whatever grade will satisfy you? 🙂

 

[clairbear]

I wouldn't take chemistry 1 and 2 again unless I had to. I'm in organic chem II right now, but other than Lewis dot diagrams and some acid-base chemistry there doesn't seem to be that much overlap.

I also wouldn't worry about buying a lab manual. At my school at least, we only really use hot plates to heat stuff which is straightforward enough. I've only been in O-Chem II for 3 weeks now, but it looks like its mostly extractions and using IR's, NMR's, etc. and we usually have someone to ask if we get stuck. If your school offers a lab for organic chem I, and you didn't take it, you may want to look up peak assignments (I have it in my textbook) or get someone to help you assign them the first few times.

I don't think your doomed quite yet, on my first couple tests I got mid C's, but once I learned what worked for me studying wise I got a B, a high A, and then an A- on the final and ended up with a B+ in the class. I did kind of devote my life to the class towards the end, but I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that the guy I had wasn't the greatest professor, and didn't really explain stuff real great and walked away when we asked questions. So, I kind of had to figure out a lot for myself plus learn everything I didn't learn before.

I think for me what made the biggest difference was doing problems from the book and then checking the book's solutions over and over and over. My professor now (so much better than the first) gives us worksheets and we get solutions which are also quite helpful to rework.

I think there are a few threads on here about different ways to study for o-chem if you want to look at them.

 

[squirrelsrule]

I was nervous going into O. Chem 1 because I hadn't been in school in 5 years and hadn't done any labs in Chemistry or physics 😱. I did awesome though, and it is quickly becoming one of my all time favorite classes. Of course I have a good professor and the people in my class are great. I am taking it at a community college, but I don't think that means its easy. Many people in my class struggle. I have been able to grasp it very well, though. For me, studying just a little at a time has really helped. I can't study all at once or for long periods like I do for other classes, that just makes everything jumble in my head. Instead, I make flashcards of the reaction types and then study them one at a time. I take them to work and glance over at them occassionally and see if I can remember what happens and the mechanism. I got an A in O. Chem 1 (highest grade in the class 😎) and O. Chem 2 is going good so far. I LOVE lab more than anything too, it is so interesting!

I wouldn't worry about taking Gen. Chem. again, O. Chem is really different.

Depending on the schools you are applying too, though, your prerecs. might be too old because most schools have a 10 year cutoff I think.

 

[twelvetigers]

I wouldn't take chemistry 1 and 2 again unless I had to. I'm in organic chem II right now, but other than Lewis dot diagrams and some acid-base chemistry there doesn't seem to be that much overlap.

Agreed.

Also, many schools do not allow upper division classes to be taken at a CC - they have to be taken at a 4 year university. For OKSU, this includes organic, biochem, and nutrition. Other schools probably have similar policies, so it might be best to play it safe and try to complete most upper division courses at the university if you can.

Also, remember that nearly everyone struggles with organic chem, no matter if they are fresh from chem II and are used to being full-time students or not. Get a tutor, have meetings with the professor, do LOTS of practice problems, and know that there may be a curve.

 

[LMMS]

Not to spam my own thread, but I feel if I was at the community college I could get an easy A.

Not so fast... I took ochem I last semester at my CC and it kicked my ass - HARD. I lost a lot of sleep to earn my B. It's all in the subject matter - I've been told more than once that ochem is designed to 'separate the men from the boys'. So, regardless of where you take it, it's going to be a very hard course unless your brain is wired for it. TT gave you some great advice with the best being practice, practice, practice! Also, if you don't already have one - get the solutions manual for your text. It's an invaluable resource!!

And I agree with everyone else - don't bother going back to take gen chem. It really won't do you any good because ochem is a completely different species!!

Best of luck with the 'joys' of carbon.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Not to spam my own thread, but I feel if I was at the community college I could get an easy A. I took biology and genetics and got 100% on most of my tests. I moved to the university because an advisor at the vet school I wanted to apply for told me it would look better. Sigh!

Yeah.

Making the assumption that community college classes are of lower quality than university classes is a mistake.

Some of them definitely are, and you'll be able to squeak by on minimal effort.

But, in my experience, the core sciences at CC were at the same level or higher than the university classes of the same sequences.

Most of those CC professors are not proud of the image they have, and make an effort to elevate the material to a higher level. Also, you'll likely find more adult students in these classes, which sometimes allows the teacher to bump up the intensity a bit.

Long story short, the gen. chem and gen. bio I took at community college were very good, and I'm finding those classes left me better prepared for higher level science than many of the 4 year university students I am in classes with now.

 

[squirrelsrule]

Also, if you don't already have one - get the solutions manual for your text. It's an invaluable resource!!

Very good advice! I didn't use it much last semester, but I am using it a lot this semester to check my answers on the synthesis questions in the book. We never get homework or problems to do assigned, but there is no better practice than actually doing the synthesis questions.

 

[LetItSnow]

Also, many schools do not allow upper division classes to be taken at a CC - they have to be taken at a 4 year university. For OKSU, this includes organic, biochem, and nutrition. Other schools probably have similar policies

I'd be curious to know if you're accurate by characterizing it as 'many schools' (as opposed to 'some' or 'a few', or if you might be exaggerating a bit. I only applied at UMN, so it wasn't on my radar when I took my pre-reqs (at a CC).

That said, my CC had an arrangement with a state university where you could take the advanced classes at the CC (taught by the CC professors), but the class credit was issued through the state university, and the course operated on the state uni's schedule and whatnot. It was a way for people to attend the CC and obtain a bachelor's degree. A few of my upper level courses were through that program, but I didn't give it too much attention since I already had an undergraduate degree when I started this whole thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if other CCs in other states have similar programs.

 

[twelvetigers]

I guess I'm not honestly sure how many schools have this requirement. It hasn't come up much on here, so I only know for sure about my IS.

Anyone else know of a school that wants upper-division courses to be taken at a 4 year university?

 

[KaibabVet]

Yeah.

Making the assumption that community college classes are of lower quality than university classes is a mistake.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter whether the CC class truly is the same caliber as a four year university. All that matters is what the admissions department thinks. I checked with my IS school before registering and they advised me not to take prerequisites at a community college. So I guess it just depends on the school.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Unfortunately it doesn't matter whether the CC class truly is the same caliber as a four year university. All that matters is what the admissions department thinks. I checked with my IS school before registering and they advised me not to take prerequisites at a community college. So I guess it just depends on the school.

Oh, I totally agree with that.

If you can afford to, and it works with your life, avoid the community college experience. The networking and research opportunities are non-existent.

And it's depressing.

But... if it's where you need to be financially, don't write off the quality of the education. That's all I wanted to point out.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

That said, my CC had an arrangement with a state university where you could take the advanced classes at the CC (taught by the CC professors), but the class credit was issued through the state university, and the course operated on the state uni's schedule and whatnot. It was a way for people to attend the CC and obtain a bachelor's degree. A few of my upper level courses were through that program, but I didn't give it too much attention since I already had an undergraduate degree when I started this whole thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if other CCs in other states have similar programs.

Our CCs have (or at least they used to back in the day) a relationship with the local university where they (university) basically agree to accept pretty much anything you've taken at the CC for transfer credit if you decide to attend the university after two years of CC. It's way easier to transfer credits from the CC to the university than it is to transfer them from the college I attended.

The science departments in our CC system (one CC, several satellite campuses) are pretty atrocious (at least they were 9-6 years ago when I encountered them), and are definitely not an easy A, because most of the professors are useless and you end up having to teach yourself all the material. (I loved their art department, though, and the english and social sciences classes weren't bad.) That said, the GP my parents and brother use did her first two years of undergrad at a quality CC in California to save money, and she ended up getting into Harvard for medical school.

As with any other college or university, all CCs are not created equal... and I definitely wouldn't assume that the courses are necessarily easier or of a lower caliber. As far as whether or not you could get away with taking your prereqs there, your best bet is probably to contact the admissions staff at the schools you're interested in and ask them how they'd feel about it.

 

[jsp132]

I always had the preconceived notion that cc was easier then regular univ courses

hah...........not really from my experience

granted this article is a bit dated........but it showed the small disparity in the items taught etc

http://faculty.mc3.edu/charendz/Penn&Montco.htm

 

[dyachei]

I wouldn't retake them if you don't need to. If you can manage a B in that class (and based on the last quiz, it seems like you can), it really won't hurt your chances of getting into vet school. Even a C may not depending on the rest of your application.

There are many, many people in vet school that didn't get all A's. Just putting that out there. And a community college may not be easier.

 

[BlacKAT33]

i'm not sure about the cc thing, i have heard it is easier but i guess that's not the case from some people. it also depends on the cc.

i would not repeat gen chem, that would be a huge waste of time. There isnt THAT much over lap and i felt the subjects were extremely different.

Timed tests suck but going from a D to low B is a huge improvement, i think you'll get used to it soon. And even if you keep getting Bs, that is good!!! most people are failing orgo and they curve. The average for my class was in the 50s and they curved. (i feel like that is the diff between cc and a big university, if you get an A or B at a cc but it wasn't curved that means the class was much easier). This is one class where you really need to compare yourself to the other students and their grades, don't use the regular ABCD system (unless the avg is a normal 75-80%)

I also feel like there is a lot of room to improve between orgo I and II. They were pretty diff at my school. orgo I had more "3D" visualization needed, more general chem stuff and then just basic rxns. Orgo II was basically just long rxns. I got an A and then a C. I know a lot of people who got a C and then an A. It just depends what comes to you faster.

you'll be fine!! dont be afraid to ask your class mates, professor, etc for help. once you get behind it is all downhill so it is better to clear things up ahead of time

 

[EllieGirl89]

Just wanted to chime in on the CC issue. I went to CC for two years right out of high school not because I couldn't get into a 4-year University (I got into Ohio State) but because it was free. With my grades from high school my CC gave me a full scholarship for 2 years. Two things:

1.) The classes were NOT easier. Now that I'm at Ohio State finishing up my undergrad, my GPA at Ohio State is a full .1 point higher than my GPA was at the CC. The classes were rigorous, DEFINITELY not easy, and the professors were knowledgeable and expected a lot from the students. My professors weren't there because they weren't good enough to be professors at 4-year universities, but most of them were there because they'd worked at 4-year universities for years and years and years and wanted to continue teaching with a smaller time commitment (smaller school=fewer people in the classes=fewer exams to grade, fewer classes to teach, etc.). They were excellent and I learned a ton.

2.) Ohio State CVM, for one, had zero problem with the fact that I took the majority of my pre-reqs (all but 4 of ~17 classes) at the CC. In fact, the only reason it came up in my interview or anything was because I brought it up as an example for a question I was asked. I think when we're told that a lot of schools won't take upper division courses from a community college, it's because community colleges, by their very nature, cannot technically HAVE "upper level" courses. The two-year curriculum is considered a freshman-sophomore curriculum, so they CAN'T have 300/400/500 level courses. So if the vet school wants an upper-level course for microbiology, like OSU wanted Micro 509, the community college credit for that wouldn't have counted for that because it wasn't upper level. If the school has an agreement with a local 4-year university where you can stay at the CC and take university courses, then that's not taking that course at the CC, it's taking it with the university, and should count.

I understand the stigma associated with CCs, and was one of the main reasons I didn't want to go even though it was free. The fact of the matter is, though, that it's simply not true in many cases, which I only learned after I'd actually ATTENDED a community college. CC courses can be just as rigorous, and sometimes more so, than equivalent courses at a 4-year university, and you can learn just as much. It's sad, I think, that some schools perpetuate this stigma by not accepting CC credits.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Very well put, Elliegirl.

 

[squibby]

i'm not sure about the cc thing, i have heard it is easier but i guess that's not the case from some people. it also depends on the cc.

It DEFINITELY depends on the cc. My cc science courses were WAY tougher than the 4-year I transferred to. My classmates at the cc went on to UC Davis and also reported it being easier at the UC. The cc I went to is a well-recognized one (in CA), so it might benefit anyone to attend a better cc.

 

[LetItSnow]

CC courses can be just as rigorous, and sometimes more so, than equivalent courses at a 4-year university, and you can learn just as much. It's sad, I think, that some schools perpetuate this stigma by not accepting CC credits.

As someone who has gone to both a 4-year school and a CC school ... absolutely everything EllieGirl said matched my experience to the letter.

 

[squirrelsrule]

Thanks for your input Ellie G. I was getting a little worried for a minute there reading what everyone said about CC classes 😱. I am taking O. Chem at CC and Biochem at my 4 year college. Because as you said the biochem is upper level and the one offered at CC doesn't require O. Chem as a prerec. whereas the 4 year college does. I do have a question about Microbiology, though, I think mine is gonna be OK, but it is CC. I called the admissions office back when I was planning what to take and when and read the lady the course description and she said that was perfect and would count. I am pretty sure I mentioned it was at the CC (I know I did for O. Chem and she said that was OK) but not positive. What would be the difference in Micro. at CC vs. Micro. at a 4 year college? Both had similar descriptions.

 

[LetItSnow]

What would be the difference in Micro. at CC vs. Micro. at a 4 year college? Both had similar descriptions.

I took the university-version of micro, but at a CC that also offered its own micro courses. Two points:

1) UMN accepts either version of the class for vet school pre-reqs. I can't speak to other schools.

2) The difference is tailoring: At least at my CC, their micro was geared more toward the nursing students. It emphasized high-level, practical knowledge, lab experience, and memorization of various pathogenic bugs and the etiology of various ailments. The 4-year version was a more technical micro that spent quite a bit more time at the cellular level and seemed geared toward someone going on to pursue research interests. Like the CC version, it also spent quite a bit of time focusing on lab technique.

 

[libster06]

To quickly address:

- CC classes are wolves in sheeps clothing! I took a trigonometry class there as a pre-req and it was VERY tough. Maybe a communications class at a CC, but science classes, especially chemistry ones, are probably difficult no matter where you go. It might be a little better, due to the smaller sizes of classes at a CC, but as far as material goes, they don't have a "regular curriculum for a *REAL* university" and a "dumber curriculum for community college".

- taking Chem I and II again would be a waste of time... especially if you did well in the classes. That's just not logical.

- I made a B in Organic and a C in Organic II. You seem to have much better study habits than I, and should therefore excel in it, or at least not pass by the skin of your teeth. Don't stress out... I made it into vet school just fine. Your grades are important, but you are more than just your grades. No one is going to walk into your clinic and ask to see your Spring 2009 report card.... they won't even ask your vet school GPA 😉

 

[Hopefully2013]

Agreed.

Also, many schools do not allow upper division classes to be taken at a CC - they have to be taken at a 4 year university. For OKSU, this includes organic, biochem, and nutrition. Other schools probably have similar policies, so it might be best to play it safe and try to complete most upper division courses at the university if you can.

You just scared me in to running and checking A&M's website because I was planning on taking O-chem this summer at my local community college... *sigh of relief* The only courses marked "Must be found at a four year institution only!" are Genetics, Microbiology, and Biochem.

I'm probably tempting fate by taking it at community college but by doing that I'm able to finish my pre-reqs in three years and apply for the first time this fall... I don't expect to get in (though it would be nice ) but it'll be good to have gone through the application process once already.

The more I hear about ochem, the more it scares me... But I figure as long as I make it through, I'll be ok. In fact, I don't have time to worry about it... trying to make B's in statistics and physics 2 this semester is going to take all my concentration.

 

[primatevetjess]

I always have to jump in and defend community college educations 🙂 I took the very basic general classes at a university and then 5 years later completed all of my pre-reqs except for genetics at a community college. The CC that I went to (well known one in CA - maybe the same one as squibby?) is so known for their science department that I even took biochem and micro there and all of the schools I applied to accepted those courses (I got accepted into 3 vet schools). The classes were definitely NOT easier, and I didn't go to a CC because I wanted easy classes. I went there because I was 26 and poor, having to work full-time and go to school.

(i feel like that is the diff between cc and a big university, if you get an A or B at a cc but it wasn't curved that means the class was much easier).

And I just have to say that this is not true at all. Yeah, I got an A in ochem 1 without a curve at a CC. How in the world does that mean it was easier? The professor was absolutely amazing, the exams were very challenging but fair, and I worked my ***** off for that A!! There was another ochem professor at my CC who was horrible. He was a terrible teacher and everyone basically failed the exams and then he just curved them. I had a friend in his class, and I understood ochem way better than he did, even the very difficult concepts - but we had the same grade and I worked much harder than he did. He knew that even if he bombed an exam it would just be curved.

Like someone else mentioned, the material is the same no matter where you go. Ochem is ochem, there's not a different ochem for stupid people that they only teach at CCs.

 

[CurrySpice]

Are you sure you have a "real" D? My professor didn't curve until the end of the class, so I calculated my grade to be a B- if I did well on the final, but I received an A in the course. It was a VERY happy surprise, but I would have appreciated knowing that he was doing this so I would be less stressed out.

Orgo II is very different from Orgo I. I found it slightly harder but definitely more interesting. Whereas rote memorization may help you in I, you really need to understand the reactions (and why they're occuring) in II. Different beasts. I had fun studying with friends and writing reactants on the whiteboard and seeing what products they think will form & why.

 

[libster06]

You just scared me in to running and checking A&M's website because I was planning on taking O-chem this summer at my local community college... *sigh of relief* The only courses marked "Must be found at a four year institution only!" are Genetics, Microbiology, and Biochem.

I'm probably tempting fate by taking it at community college but by doing that I'm able to finish my pre-reqs in three years and apply for the first time this fall... I don't expect to get in (though it would be nice ) but it'll be good to have gone through the application process once already.

I would honestly REALLY check on that with Texas A&M- call them, rather than just use the website to confirm that they are okay with you taking that somewhere other than a 4 year college. Some things on their website aren't so black and white. That is the one thing my advisor for undergrad would not let me do was to take OC I & II at a CC- and Texas A&M was my top school (at which I DID get into when the time came, but had to decline).

He basically said it signals exactly what you think it would: that you took the easy way out. While all the other applicants suffered through university OChem, at their respective 4-years, you would have taken organic at a CC, which in all actuality may not have been easier, but I was told that is what it conveys to an admissions council. Just from personal experience that was something they strongly advised against.

OChem is a rite of passage. You go through it, get your B, C, or hopefully A, then you're done. It's hard, but it's not any harder than actual vet school. No sense in jeopardizing your application over it.

 

[lareinesoleil]

Not to just echo what everybody else is saying, but for me at least, the GenChem series was about 80% Inorganic Chemistry - you'd be better off, in my opinion, taking a few days to study the few parts of GenChem that are Organic-related on your own (or looking them up as you need them), rather than retaking the entire series.

What saved my butt in O-Chem was studying every single day, for 1-3 hours. (And I had a good prof, thankfully, but O-Chem isn't a cakewalk no matter what.) Do every problem you can lay your hands on. Buy extra study books. Make notecards. Build models! (I built models and carried them around with me.) Learn the reaction mechanisms inside and out.

IMHO, you'd be better off taking a lighter schedule along with O-Chem and devoting tons of time to it, rather than taking it at a Community College where you may get doubly screwed (ie it won't be any easier, but the admissions committee might not like it).

Good luck. O-Chem isn't easy but you'll be really proud when you get through it!

 

[turnandburn]

I *wish* I would have taken organic at my CC. Not that I think the class would have been easier, but it would have been the difference between a class of 20 people and a class of 350 people. I believe I would have done better simply because it would have been easier to get individual instructor time and be able to ask questions in class about confusing points.

 

[drwildlife]

I struggled through Organic Chemistry I, like many others, but I made it through and am now taking Organic Chemistry II. I would have to say...so far Orgo II is much, much easier. Maybe because I know how to handle the courseload or the material is easier with a background. Who knows.

I know this book has been mentioned on other threads but, you might find this helpful. The two books are called Organic Chemistry as a Second Language. Check 'em out:

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemi...9298/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1297015015&sr=8-2

 

[Hopefully2013]

I would honestly REALLY check on that with Texas A&M- call them, rather than just use the website to confirm that they are okay with you taking that somewhere other than a 4 year college. Some things on their website aren't so black and white. That is the one thing my advisor for undergrad would not let me do was to take OC I & II at a CC- and Texas A&M was my top school (at which I DID get into when the time came, but had to decline).

He basically said it signals exactly what you think it would: that you took the easy way out. While all the other applicants suffered through university OChem, at their respective 4-years, you would have taken organic at a CC, which in all actuality may not have been easier, but I was told that is what it conveys to an admissions council. Just from personal experience that was something they strongly advised against.

Well, if they don't accept it, I'll spend another year and take it again, since if I don't get in the first time I'm coming back here for another year anyway to finish the degree. I don't think it's going to be easier to take it in the summer, crammed in to a matter of weeks, but it's what I gotta do. I'd rather have the opportunity to apply a year early than delay it for a single class. After this semester I'm done with my pre-reqs except for O-chem and bio chem.

 

[Packen]

I *wish* I would have taken organic at my CC. Not that I think the class would have been easier, but it would have been the difference between a class of 20 people and a class of 350 people. I believe I would have done better simply because it would have been easier to get individual instructor time and be able to ask questions in class about confusing points.

This is the main reason I retook OC (expired for a couple of schools I was going to apply to) at the local CC and not the local University here. At the Univ., the OC lecture was 150 students and the labs were broken into roughly 40 students. At the CC we have 15 students in my lecture and 15 students in my lab. It is great because you do get to ask questions and the professor knows all of us personally.

I do know that the CC is offering a microbio class, but it would not fulfill many vet schools' requirements because it is only a 200 level course. Technically it is not an upperlevel course.