ORM URM question

[tneduts lacidem-erp]

How does URM and ORM work for people who are mixed?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Med Ed]

What are you asking?

 

[KnightDoc]

What are you asking?

Probably, can you receive whatever benefits come from applying as URM if you are also ORM?

 

[theendisnigh]

You should identify as how you have always identified. Now's not the time to bring up the story of the great grandmother Cherokee princess that no one wants to hear. If you have identified as a group considered URM, then do so. If not, then don't.

 

[DoctorFate]

You should identify as how you have always identified. Now's not the time to bring up the story of the great grandmother Cherokee princess that no one wants to hear. If you have identified as a group considered URM, then do so. If not, then don't.

What kind of response is this? I seriously doubt OP is considering changing ethnicity on some tale he heard from his mom yesterday. He/she is likely asian/black or some other orm/urm combo and is just wondering what impact that has.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

What kind of response is this? I seriously doubt OP is considering changing ethnicity on some tale he heard from his mom yesterday. He/she is likely asian/black or some other orm/urm combo and is just wondering what impact that has.

Seems like someone remembers a story about a senator 😀

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

How does URM and ORM work for people who are mixed?

I guess you can declare yourself as URM if one parent is URM. I am not sure how many generations back you can go back.

 

[doomer_md]

I guess you can declare yourself as URM if one parent is URM. I am not sure how many generations back you can go back.

Elizabeth Warren can say she’s Native American with one ancestor 6 generations back so I’d say that’s a starting point

 

[DoctorFate]

Elizabeth Warren can say she’s Native American with one ancestor 6 generations back so I’d say that’s a starting point

I'd say 1/4 is the minimum cutoff to classify as any race.

 

[KnightDoc]

Elizabeth Warren can say she’s Native American with one ancestor 6 generations back so I’d say that’s a starting point

OTOH, although technically true, that claim didn't really do a lot for her presidential ambitions, did it?

 

[KnightDoc]

I'd say 1/4 is the minimum cutoff to classify as any race.

I'm pretty sure that for adcoms, it's more about self identification, as evidenced through a body of work, rather than arbitrary DNA cutoffs.

 

[candbgirl]

I'm pretty sure that for adcoms, it's more about self identification, as evidenced through a body of work, rather than arbitrary DNA cutoffs.

This!!! Do you have a strong history of service and interaction with the URM group? Were traditions observed/celebrated in your family? Things like this. It’s how you spent your life with your family. Not something that you sort of knew but it didn’t impact your life. How do you see yourself?

 

[DoctorFate]

I'm pretty sure that for adcoms, it's more about self identification, as evidenced through a body of work, rather than arbitrary DNA cutoffs.

Honestly, I don't think I entirely agree. You're absolutely right that body of work matters, but at the end of the day schools also just like bragging about how many URM's, first gen college students, other disadvantaged, etc. that they have. It might not be quite as much of a benefit, but I'm sure it still has some level of an effect.
Also, while it certainly is "self identification" in theory, that usually practically works out to DNA cutoffs. Very rarely do people less than 1/4 of a race identify as that race, and honestly I would question their judgement if they did. I remember a tiktok post a girl made today mocking east Asian stereotypes by pretending to eat her dog, but justified it by saying she was part Asian. In the comments, she clarified that she was 2% Asian and strongly self-identified as Asian and was very invested in and connected to Asian culture. As you can probably guess, people were not happy.

 

[KnightDoc]

Honestly, I don't think I entirely agree. You're absolutely right that body of work matters, but at the end of the day schools also just like bragging about how many URM's, first gen college students, other disadvantaged, etc. that they have. It might not be quite as much of a benefit, but I'm sure it still has some level of an effect.
Also, while it certainly is "self identification" in theory, that usually practically works out to DNA cutoffs. Very rarely do people less than 1/4 of a race identify as that race, and honestly I would question their judgement if they did. I remember a tiktok post a girl made today mocking east Asian stereotypes by pretending to eat her dog, but justified it by saying she was part Asian. In the comments, she clarified that she was 2% Asian and strongly self-identified as Asian and was very invested in and connected to Asian culture. As you can probably guess, people were not happy.

And you're absolutely right about some schools probably caring more about statistical reports they produce than actually increasing diversity.

That said, gaming the system by checking boxes is probably a big enough thing nowadays that I'd be surprised if evidence of affiliation with URM groups, as set forth by @candbgirl above, was not taken into account by adcoms, if for no reason reason other than screening out the posers and ensuring that whatever preference exists actually goes to the target audience, rather than the Elizabeth Warrens of the premed world.

 

[DoctorFate]

And you're absolutely right about some schools probably caring more about statistical reports they produce than actually increasing diversity.

That said, gaming the system by checking boxes is probably a big enough thing nowadays that I'd be surprised if evidence of affiliation with URM groups, as set forth by @candbgirl above, was not taken into account by adcoms, if for no reason reason other than screening out the posers and ensuring that whatever preference exists actually goes to the target audience, rather than the Elizabeth Warrens of the premed world.

I see where you're coming from, but honestly I would definitely disagree and say "almost all" rather than "some".

According to this table: https://schools.studentdoctor.net/data/factstablea24-2.pdf

In 2015-2016 there were less than 50 black applicants with what would be considered "outstanding" MCAT scores and GPA. Even overall, there are aren't many black applicants and they disproportionately tend towards lower GPA and MCAT scores when compare to other applicants. As such, I would wager that these candidates would be pretty attractive to med schools regardless of their ties and commitment, unless they make active efforts to distance themselves from their identification.

I would use more recent data, except AAMC discontinued publishing these kinds of grids in recent times, likely because there was substantial outrage at the much higher acceptance rates of URMs at the same stats as ORMs.

 

[KnightDoc]

I see where you're coming from, but honestly I would definitely disagree and say "almost all" rather than "some".

According to this table: https://schools.studentdoctor.net/data/factstablea24-2.pdf

In 2015-2016 there were less than 50 black applicants with what would be considered "outstanding" MCAT scores and GPA. Even overall, there are aren't many black applicants and they disproportionately tend towards lower GPA and MCAT scores when compare to other applicants. As such, I would wager that these candidates would be pretty attractive to med schools regardless of their ties and commitment, unless they make active efforts to distance themselves from their identification.

I would use more recent data, except AAMC discontinued publishing these kinds of grids in recent times, likely because there was substantial outrage at the much higher acceptance rates of URMs at the same stats as ORMs.

Understood, and, obviously, I have no data to back up my feeling. I just think that as admissions have become ridiculously more competitive, more and more people are tempted to check a box, so my sense is that there are a lot more self-identified URM candidates today than in 2015-16. As a result, while the push is definitely still on to identify and enroll qualified candidates, schools are less desperate to just admit anyone who happens to check a box.

It's not scientific, but there are more than enough URM reapplicants posting on SDN to support the notion that just having URM status does not result in an auto-A anywhere. High stat candidates will usually find a place somewhere, but, my sense is that people receiving a URM stat accommodation probably have other highly attractive elements in their applications, like significant and extended service to an underserved community. JMHO, since there is no published data to support or refute.

 

[DoctorFate]

Understood, and, obviously, I have no data to back up my feeling. I just think that as admissions have become ridiculously more competitive, more and more people are tempted to check a box, so my sense is that there are a lot more self-identified URM candidates today than in 2015-16. As a result, while the push is definitely still on to identify and enroll qualified candidates, schools are less desperate to just admit anyone who happens to check a box.

It's not scientific, but there are more than enough URM reapplicants posting on SDN to support the notion that just having URM status does not result in an auto-A anywhere. High stat candidates will usually find a place somewhere, but, my sense is that people receiving a URM stat accommodation probably have other highly attractive elements in their applications, like significant and extended service to an underserved community. JMHO, since there is no published data to support or refute.

Definitely an opinion for me too, as there's no data. I see what you're saying about the URM reapplicants, but as I mentioned, URM GPA and MCAT averages tend to be substantially lower, which is why a similar percentage end up reapplying. Just look at the data below:

Asian - Total MCAT: 513.8 | Total GPA: 3.77.
White - Total MCAT: 512.2 | Total GPA: 3.77.
African American - Total MCAT: 505.7 | Total GPA: 3.53.
Latinx - Total MCAT: 506.6 | Total GPA: 3.62.

But yea, at the end of the day, no real point in guessing.

 

[DoctorFate]

Sweetie, that was the response from a well-known U.S. senator and former Democratic presidential candidate. You keep yourself up with the news?

Yes, I did. In fact, that was my point. I found it quite unlikely OP would do the same thing as Warren. Most people that are claim to be ORM/URM... are likely ORM/URM. Warren cases are rare. OP likely just wanted to know how he/she would be considered in admissions since he/she is both.

 

[Goro]

What kind of response is this? I seriously doubt OP is considering changing ethnicity on some tale he heard from his mom yesterday. He/she is likely asian/black or some other orm/urm combo and is just wondering what impact that has.

You'd be surprised how many people discover their URM heritage upon applying to med school.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You'd be surprised how many people discover their URM heritage upon applying to med school.

or when running for any public office.

 

[YCAGA]

Put whatever you want in the “race” field as long as you aren’t lying. If you put it down in good faith, no one can really argue with that.

 

[MarxistHegelian]

Hi all, URM here. Being a pre-med was in no regards a simple decision. Specially since my family/community had no doctor friends and none of my professors looked liked me. Remember that one prof or doctor that made you feel this: "oh, I identify with this person"? Well, that's a lot harder for URM's. Everyday you must make a conscious choice to exist in the spaces you do and have to "represent" the BIPOC community because you happened to have more melatonin in your skin.

Does this sound like it applies to you? Then go ahead and say you're URM.

Never felt any of this/ are just becoming aware of this? Please, stop trying to increase your chances by competing with other students that need this "extra look" on their application.

Trust me, BS detectors are real. You don't want your dream school to screen you out by triggering theirs.

 

[deleted1065184]

Honestly, I don't think I entirely agree. You're absolutely right that body of work matters, but at the end of the day schools also just like bragging about how many URM's, first gen college students, other disadvantaged, etc. that they have. It might not be quite as much of a benefit, but I'm sure it still has some level of an effect.
Also, while it certainly is "self identification" in theory, that usually practically works out to DNA cutoffs. Very rarely do people less than 1/4 of a race identify as that race, and honestly I would question their judgement if they did. I remember a tiktok post a girl made today mocking east Asian stereotypes by pretending to eat her dog, but justified it by saying she was part Asian. In the comments, she clarified that she was 2% Asian and strongly self-identified as Asian and was very invested in and connected to Asian culture. As you can probably guess, people were not happy.

Just so this doesn't go down that rabbit hole, race is entirely a sociopolitical construct and has *no* basis in biology. It's entirely arbitrary and very often changed based on the desires of the group(s) in power.

Having said that, I do think that it's about more than a body of work. Minoritized individuals shouldn't have to necessarily prove their connection to their racial/ethnic group. You either are part of that group or you aren't. A person can be both Black and Asian. And many (probably most) individuals who fit into this group are racialized as Black. And to some degree, their life experiences will reflect this (regardless of what they do/don't do in Black communities). So it makes perfect sense for such an individual to identify as URM.

If a person has one Black/Latinx/Indigenous/etc. grandparent but has navigated society as another, non-URM race/ethnicity, then it would be highly disingenuous for them to put URM on their application.

 

[Goro]

If a person has one Black/Latino/Native American/etc. grandparent but has navigated society as another, non-URM race/ethnicity, then it would be highly disingenuous for them to put URM on their application.

Well, that's the problem. Many unethical premeds will lie about their ancestry or ethnicity to game the admissions process.

This is why I recommend that some people walk the walk, and not merely talk the talk.

 

[deleted1065184]

Well, that's the problem. Many unethical premeds will lie about their ancestry or ethnicity to game the admissions process.

This is why I recommend that some people walk the walk, and not merely talk the talk.

If such an applicant (the one with the one grandparent) decides to do some work in the community they claim to be a part of, does that make them any less disingenuous?

 

[Goro]

If such an applicant (the one with the one grandparent) decides to do some work in the community they claim to be a part of, does that make them any less disingenuous?

Nope, but then it gets harder to flip the BS detector.

But the disingenuous tend to look for short cuts, so they're probably more likely to simply talk the talk.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If such an applicant (the one with the one grandparent) decides to do some work in the community they claim to be a part of, does that make them any less disingenuous?

It varies from school to school. From sone it’s numbers game. I have seen schools chasing rich URMs with good stats.

 

[xffan624]

For schools when considering URM status it's ostensibly about addressing health disparities and not directly about evening out whatever disadvantages an applicant may have had (that's addressed in a different part of the app). Multiple studies have show that URMs are more likely to work in underserved communities regardless of the URM's SES status prior to medical school.

If you have already demonstrated a tangible connection to this community beyond DNA that only solidifies their idea that you might be a doctor to serve that community when you graduate medical school/residency.

 

[deleted1065184]

It varies from school to school. From sone it’s numbers game. I have seen schools chasing rich URMs with good stats.

Yeah they def chase stats bc of USNWR, but wealth very strongly correlates with high stats so it makes sense that they're disproportionately accepting URM students from relatively privileged backgrounds.

 

[DoctorFate]

Yeah they def chase stats bc of USNWR, but wealth very strongly correlates with high stats so it makes sense that they're disproportionately accepting URM students from relatively privileged backgrounds.

This is why I think some schools are likely not to look too closely URM identification. I'm sure there are many schools out there who speak about serving the underprivileged more as a talking point than an actual goal. For them, anyone that's high stat and marking URM, even if disingenuous, meets their URM quota (I know its not exactly a quota, but you know what I mean) without decreasing their MCAT averages.

 

[deleted1065184]

This is why I think some schools are likely not to look too closely URM identification. I'm sure there are many schools out there who speak about serving the underprivileged more as a talking point than an actual goal. For them, anyone that's high stat and marking URM, even if disingenuous, meets their URM quota (I know its not exactly a quota, but you know what I mean) without decreasing their MCAT averages.

I wish schools had something even remotely close to a URM quota, that would be the equitable action and would directly address the lack of physicians in predominantly URM communities.

But despite all of the talk from schools, most still have a very small proportion or URM students...which is why it's always perplexing to me that non-URM students often choose to blame URM students for them not getting in. As if the seat belonged to them. And it's not like people with lower MCAT scores are less likely to be good physicians.

I will always have beef with schools for letting students believe that stats determine their worthiness to practice medicine (obv they don't say this outright, but their obsession with USNWR rankings and ridiculously high stats medians makes their priorities abundantly clear imo).

 

[DoctorFate]

I wish schools had something even remotely close to a URM quota, that would be the equitable action and would directly address the lack of physicians in predominantly URM communities.

But despite all of the talk from schools, most still have a very small proportion or URM students...which is why it's always perplexing to me that non-URM students often choose to blame URM students for them not getting in. As if the seat belonged to them. And it's not like people with lower MCAT scores are less likely to be good physicians.

I will always have beef with schools for letting students believe that stats determine their worthiness to practice medicine (obv they don't say this outright, but their obsession with USNWR rankings and ridiculously high stats medians makes their priorities abundantly clear imo).

These are the average stats by race:
Asian - Total MCAT: 513.8 | Total GPA: 3.77.
White - Total MCAT: 512.2 | Total GPA: 3.77.
African American - Total MCAT: 505.7 | Total GPA: 3.53.
Latinx - Total MCAT: 506.6 | Total GPA: 3.62.

I'm not sure how you can consider this disparity not "even remotely close to a URM quota", as I find it quite unlikely an 8 point difference is purely due to chance, accomplishments, or other factors. But if you believe that, it's fine. I guess we just disagree.

Just to be clear, I'm not even saying it shouldn't be this way. I'll save my views on it for a more appropriate thread. I am, however, surprised to see someone argue it simply doesn't exist.

 

[LondonVibes]

Nope, but then it gets harder to flip the BS detector.

But the disingenuous tend to look for short cuts, so they're probably more likely to simply talk the talk.

That's true. Maybe this is the reason why your school looks at SES over race.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This is why I think some schools are likely not to look too closely URM identification. I'm sure there are many schools out there who speak about serving the underprivileged more as a talking point than an actual goal. For them, anyone that's high stat and marking URM, even if disingenuous, meets their URM quota (I know its not exactly a quota, but you know what I mean) without decreasing their MCAT averages.

I believe more schools play the numbers game to look good, may be I am too cynical.

 

[MDMechEngr]

I believe more schools play the numbers game to look good, may be I am too cynical.

No. You are not cynical. I wish the NFL and NBA also plays this URM number game. LOL

 

[doomer_md]

But despite all of the talk from schools, most still have a very small proportion or URM students...which is why it's always perplexing to me that non-URM students often choose to blame URM students for them not getting in. As if the seat belonged to them.

Why is it perplexing? If race is not considered the percentage of URMs would be even lower.

 

[KnightDoc]

These are the average stats by race:
Asian - Total MCAT: 513.8 | Total GPA: 3.77.
White - Total MCAT: 512.2 | Total GPA: 3.77.
African American - Total MCAT: 505.7 | Total GPA: 3.53.
Latinx - Total MCAT: 506.6 | Total GPA: 3.62.

I'm not sure how you can consider this disparity not "even remotely close to a URM quota", as I find it quite unlikely an 8 point difference is purely due to chance. accomplishments, or other factors. But if you believe that, it's fine. I guess we just disagree.

Just to be clear, I'm not even saying it shouldn't be this way. I'll save my views on it for a more appropriate thread. I am, however, surprised to see someone argue it simply doesn't exist.

I think we all agree that there are no quotas, per se. I think we can also all agree that URMs disproportionately come from low SES backgrounds, and that those from such backgrounds, including Whites and ORMs, have systemic barriers to academic achievement, sometimes from birth.

The profession either addresses this or it doesn't. In recent years, it has chosen to address it. Not by diluting the quality of health care by just taking anyone in order to meet informal quotas, but by lowering the barriers to entry by acknowledging that one does not need a 3.9 GPA and a 514 MCAT to be able to be trained to ultimately become a very excellent physician.

Now, here's where the rubber hits the road. Some advocating for URMs will claim more can be done, and they are correct. The question is, how much more should be done? Some ORMs (and their parents) are irate that it's not a pure numbers based meritocracy, when they see otherwise excellent ORM candidates with 514 MCATs passed over in favor in otherwise excellent URM candidates with 507 MCATs.

Their reaction is understandable, but it's also understandable that the 7 point MCAT difference is not going to dictate who is ultimately a good or bad doctor. So, the profession either makes an accommodation to try to bring more members of under represented groups in, notwithstanding the fact that their stats are adequate, but lower than those from other groups, or they don't.

Of course, until opportunities are equal for everyone, whatever is done will never be enough for those who are still under represented. I don't have any data whatsoever to support this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the real losers here were low SES ORM and White applicants, since there is probably less pressure to make allowances for their statistical under performance relative to their wealthier demographic peers, since they do not come from otherwise under represented ethnic or racial groups.

@mshumor -- do you know if there is a table like the one you posted breaking out matriculants by economic status, so we can see if low SES Whites and ORMs have significantly lower numbers than their wealthier counterparts?

 

[DoctorFate]

Why is it perplexing? If race is not considered the percentage of URMs would be even lower.

Yea haha, that's what I thought! That's a terrible argument to make. I see similar things often said about how there's no bias against ORMs because there are so many Asians in medicine. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[DoctorFate]

I think we all agree that there are no quotas, per se. I think we can also all agree that URMs disproportionately come from low SES backgrounds, and that those from such backgrounds, including Whites and ORMs, have systemic barriers to academic achievement, sometimes from birth.

The profession either addresses this or it doesn't. In recent years, it has chosen to address it. Not by diluting the quality of health care by just taking anyone in order to meet informal quotas, but by lowering the barriers to entry by acknowledging that one does not need a 3.9 GPA and a 514 MCAT to be able to be trained to ultimately become a very excellent physician.

Now, here's where the rubber hits the road. Some advocating for URMs will claim more can be done, and they are correct. The question is, how much more should be done? Some ORMs (and their parents) are irate that it's not a pure numbers based meritocracy, when they see otherwise excellent ORM candidates with 514 MCATs passed over in favor in otherwise excellent URM candidates with 507 MCATs.

Their reaction is understandable, but it's also understandable that the 7 point MCAT difference is not going to dictate who is ultimately a good or bad doctor. So, the profession either makes an accommodation to try to bring more members of under represented groups in, notwithstanding the fact that their stats are adequate, but lower than those from other groups, or they don't.

Of course, until opportunities are equal for everyone, whatever is done will never be enough for those who are still under represented. I don't have any data whatsoever to support this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the real losers here were low SES ORM and White applicants, since there is probably less pressure to make allowances for their statistical under performance relative to their wealthier demographic peers, since they do not come from otherwise under represented ethnic or racial groups.

@mshumor -- do you know if there is a table like the one you posted breaking out matriculants by economic status, so we can see if low SES Whites and ORMs have significantly lower numbers than their wealthier counterparts?

To my knowledge, unfortunately no. I've tried to find it before, but there is nothing stratifying by income.
To be honest though, I don't really play the game of what schools "should" do for admissions because I recognize they have the legal right to do what they are currently doing and will continue doing so for as long as they are able.

I'm more interested in what they "will" do once race-based affirmative action becomes illegal. Affirmative action was legalized by the supreme court by just 1 vote (5-4 decision), with the swing vote judge saying "twenty-five years hence, racial affirmative action would no longer be necessary". The current Supreme Court composition is more conservative than the earlier court, and a majority of the members have indicated they are opposed to affirmative action and will vote to overturn it via Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, which is extremely likely to make it to the Supreme Court quite soon.

I'm very interested to see how colleges will deal with this. Perhaps they will swing to favor low SES students more instead of race, which I would strongly support. At any rate, I sometimes wish I was just a year or two younger, so that this case would have been decided before I applied to medical school.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I'm more interested in what they "will" do once race-based affirmative action becomes illegal.

They will have holistic process and school mission statements to come up with the class demographics they want.

 

[KnightDoc]

To my knowledge, unfortunately no. I've tried to find it before, but there is nothing stratifying by income.
To be honest though, I don't really play the game of what schools "should" do for admissions because I recognize they have the legal right to do what they are currently doing and will continue doing so for as long as they are able.

I'm more interested in what they "will" do once race-based affirmative action becomes illegal. Affirmative action was legalized by the supreme court by just 1 vote (5-4 decision), with the swing vote judge saying "twenty-five years hence, racial affirmative action would no longer be necessary". The current Supreme Court composition is more conservative than the earlier court, and a majority of the members have indicated they are opposed to affirmative action and will vote to overturn it via Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, which is extremely likely to make it to the Supreme Court quite soon.

I'm very interested to see how colleges will deal with this. Perhaps they will swing to favor low SES students more instead of race, which I would strongly support. At any rate, I sometimes wish I was just a year or two younger, so that this case would have been decided before I applied to medical school.

You're not missing anything. I really don't think anything is going to change until we get to a point where everyone has equal opportunities, and equal outcomes.

What they do now is not classified as affirmative action, so no court ruling is going to impact it. They have studies supporting increased URM admissions lead to better health outcomes in under served communities. Under that theory, they will not be bound, like the UCs, to run admissions based solely on stats. Nothing is going to change until systemic disparities are addressed.

 

[gyngyn]

It appears that OP now has more than enough here to answer their question.