Orthodontics cheaply n' quickly

[Donutsmmm]

Hey guys

Im really gravitating towards orthodontistry but the cost and time investment are a turn-off because I have to finance myself. Does anyone know if there's any accelerated programs that would allow me to save a few years or is really cheap. Or is the 10-11 years and 500k debt inevitable?

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[SoulPower]

Hey guys

Im really gravitating towards orthodontistry but the cost and time investment are a turn-off because I have to finance myself. Does anyone know if there's any accelerated programs that would allow me to save a few years or is really cheap. Or is the 10-11 years and 500k debt inevitable?

In professional schools, there is no such thing as quickly. I assume you are including undergrad in your 10-11 year calculations. 4 years for undergrad + 4 years for DDS + 2 or 3 years for orthodontic residency. So yea 10-11 years is going to be what you have to dedicate to be a orthodontist in the U.S.

 

[whodat4life]

The only thing you can do to try and offset the cost is try your hardest to get into state schools (non-private). Obviously these schools are extremely competitive and hard to get into. In a worst case scenario, the number you've listed is probably accurate. The thing that kills students recently is the high principal of their loans ON TOP of the ridiculous interest rates the government is charging. About 2/5 of your loans will be unsubsidized at 6.8% and another 2/5 at 7.9%...and the last 1/5 are subsidized at low(er) interest rates (6.8 and 5.0 for Health Professional Loans).

 

[Demeter]

You could take CE courses, after your graduate and only treat easy cases. There is a good course called GP ortho that has Friday/ Saturday classes every other month for two years. Half of the class is didactics the other half is hands on, start to finish orthodontics on patients under the supervision of experienced practioners. Many practices start by offering a half day a week ortho and then grow the ortho component of their practice.

 

[jay47]

Hey guys

Im really gravitating towards orthodontistry but the cost and time investment are a turn-off because I have to finance myself. Does anyone know if there's any accelerated programs that would allow me to save a few years or is really cheap. Or is the 10-11 years and 500k debt inevitable?

I'm going to make some assumptions here, just from your short post, but it sounds like you are in it for the money. Now, that's not a bad thing, but if money is your goal, there are banking/trading/investment positions out there that take a hell of a lot less time and don't require you to go to school 11 years and be EXTREMELY competitive during the entire time you are in school just to be called an orthodontist. Everyone has their reasons, and we should respect that, but I'm just trying to save you a lot of headache in the matter.

In general, orthodontics includes those individuals who are around top quarter in their colleges (3.6+ GPA) do very well on the national dental entrance exam (DAT), are in the top ten percent in their dental school (yes even harder), have a 90+ board exam score and then they still need 2 years in ortho school to graduate. This is a LOT of stress and time, and even if the money is good for ortho, there are many other opportunities out there with good money.

 

[cmcner]

In general, orthodontics includes those individuals who are around top quarter in their colleges (3.6+ GPA) do very well on the national dental entrance exam (DAT), are in the top ten percent in their dental school (yes even harder), have a 90+ board exam score and then they still need 2 years in ortho school to graduate. This is a LOT of stress and time, and even if the money is good for ortho, there are many other opportunities out there with good money.

Or that's how it used to be. The frustrating thing now for anyone interested in going into any specialty is that the boards are going pass/fail starting in January and how people are judged for each program is still somewhat of a mystery to everyone. Basically you don't even know if you are doing everything right or wrong so it makes following a course to achieve the ultimate goal even harder and a bit of a game of chance.

 

[mike3kgt]

I'm going to make some assumptions here, just from your short post, but it sounds like you are in it for the money. Now, that's not a bad thing, but if money is your goal, there are banking/trading/investment positions out there that take a hell of a lot less time and don't require you to go to school 11 years and be EXTREMELY competitive during the entire time you are in school just to be called an orthodontist. Everyone has their reasons, and we should respect that, but I'm just trying to save you a lot of headache in the matter.

In general, orthodontics includes those individuals who are around top quarter in their colleges (3.6+ GPA) do very well on the national dental entrance exam (DAT), are in the top ten percent in their dental school (yes even harder), have a 90+ board exam score and then they still need 2 years in ortho school to graduate. This is a LOT of stress and time, and even if the money is good for ortho, there are many other opportunities out there with good money.

One of the best posts on SDN.

 

[m1817]

Does anyone know if there's any accelerated programs that would allow me to save a few years or is really cheap.

Maybe the University of Phoenix can come up with a orthodontal program that you can study online.

 

[SoulPower]

Or that's how it used to be. The frustrating thing now for anyone interested in going into any specialty is that the boards are going pass/fail starting in January and how people are judged for each program is still somewhat of a mystery to everyone. Basically you don't even know if you are doing everything right or wrong so it makes following a course to achieve the ultimate goal even harder and a bit of a game of chance.

This could be a good thing for the people who honestly want to do orthodontics after DS but wouldn't do so hot on the boards. As long as you have a solid gpa/class standing, are doing things correlated with orthodontics; spending time at the residency at your school or research. It should make it a much more even playing field for students after this change. Just my opinion.

On the flipside, I can understand why someone who busted their butt to get a good grade on the boards would feel it is for nothing when they get the same P as the person who maybe just barely P'd.

I guess what I'm thinking/saying is that criteria should go beyond what the boards are. And, in effect, is why they are being changed because they have little clinical predictability of dentists.

 

[jay47]

This could be a good thing for the people who honestly want to do orthodontics after DS but wouldn't do so hot on the boards. As long as you have a solid gpa/class standing, are doing things correlated with orthodontics; spending time at the residency at your school or research. It should make it a much more even playing field for students after this change. Just my opinion.

On the flipside, I can understand why someone who busted their butt to get a good grade on the boards would feel it is for nothing when they get the same P as the person who maybe just barely P'd.

I guess what I'm thinking/saying is that criteria should go beyond what the boards are. And, in effect, is why they are being changed because they have little clinical predictability of dentists.

I didn't think about this, but the GRE that all ortho potentials have to take may now carry much more merit (as dumb as that really is). It may essentially replace the NBDE 1 in terms of the "equalizer" amongst students.

 

[jay47]

Maybe the University of Phoenix can come up with a orthodontal program that you can study online.

The truly truly sad thing about this post is that UOP probably costs as much or more than dental school.

I am NOT a fan of for profit schools of any kind.

 

[SoulPower]

I didn't think about this, but the GRE that all ortho potentials have to take may now carry much more merit (as dumb as that really is). It may essentially replace the NBDE 1 in terms of the "equalizer" amongst students.

I'm glad I provoke thought with this; but the talk of the GRE replacing it is just as bad imo. It has NOTHING to do with orthodontics, it would just be another test to set students apart.

What I would really like to see, I don't know about the feasability, would be specialty focused tests that would test competency of such skills that are taught in DS. For example, an oral surgery-based test to get into oral surgery residency or an endodontic-based test to get into endo residencies would be along the lines i'm thinking. A test that tests what a student "should" know about the residency based on what they learned in DS to show their competency in that area.

 

[gryffindor]

Quickest way through undergrad + dental school:

UOP 5 year BS/DDS combined dental program.

Quickest ortho program:

Any 2 year ortho residency, which is probably less than half the ortho programs out there. The cheapest one of these 2 year residencies is University of Rochester. It has no tuition and you get a paid stipend.

In 7 years, you'll go from high school grad to orthodontist. The part at UOP won't be cheap. The ortho residency could be cheap if you are lucky enough to get into the University of Rochester, or it could be quite expensive if you get in somewhere like UOP's own ortho program (their's is a 27 month program).

I bet there has to be at least 1 grad of the UOP 5 year program out there who has done this.

 

[Bereno]

The truly truly sad thing about this post is that UOP probably costs as much or more than dental school.

I am NOT a fan of for profit schools of any kind.

I hope you don't confuse some readers on here with UoP lol

Oh and ditto on the for profit schools... no good

 

[HupHolland]

I'm glad I provoke thought with this; but the talk of the GRE replacing it is just as bad imo. It has NOTHING to do with orthodontics, it would just be another test to set students apart.

What I would really like to see, I don't know about the feasability, would be specialty focused tests that would test competency of such skills that are taught in DS. For example, an oral surgery-based test to get into oral surgery residency or an endodontic-based test to get into endo residencies would be along the lines i'm thinking. A test that tests what a student "should" know about the residency based on what they learned in DS to show their competency in that area. (except ortho is not usually taught in DS as far as I have heard but a test more dental related and specialty focused for students to take before graduation).

And Part I does???

 

[SoulPower]

And Part I does???

You just supported me..

 

[HupHolland]

You just supported me..

touche

 

[PTBarnum]

Quickest way through undergrad + dental school:

UOP 5 year BS/DDS combined dental program.

Quickest ortho program:

Any 2 year ortho residency, which is probably less than half the ortho programs out there. The cheapest one of these 2 year residencies is University of Rochester. It has no tuition and you get a paid stipend.

In 7 years, you'll go from high school grad to orthodontist. The part at UOP won't be cheap. The ortho residency could be cheap if you are lucky enough to get into the University of Rochester, or it could be quite expensive if you get in somewhere like UOP's own ortho program (their's is a 27 month program).

I bet there has to be at least 1 grad of the UOP 5 year program out there who has done this.

Note: The UOP 5 year program (2+3) does not provide a BS degree, only a DDS. The UOP 6 year and 7 year programs, however, provide both the BS and the DDS.

 

[gryffindor]

Note: The UOP 5 year program (2+3) does not provide a BS degree, only a DDS. The UOP 6 year and 7 year programs, however, provide both the BS and the DDS.

OK, but you won't need the BS degree as long as you finish with your DDS. Many people on this board have gone on to specialize without the BS degree. The specialty program that absolutely demands you to have one is the exception, not the rule.

 

[DrJeff]

Here's one thing to consider about the 2 vs. 3 year ortho programs. And I've had many a discussion about this with not only my wife (a 3 year ortho program grad) but also a few other ortho's out there (both 2 and 3 year programs).

A great deal of ortho is about the diagnosis. Once the diagnosis is arrived at, the appropriate treatment plan can be determined and begun. Where many orthodontists feel that the great "art" of their profession really happens (and also where many anal retentive referring docs feel the real "art" happens) is in how a case is finished. Given that the majority of ortho cases usally have about a 24 month course of treatment, and most ortho programs have their students with a couple of months of didactic work prior to the beginning of clinical treatment, how then can grads of a 2 year program really get to see the start to finish results of their work prior to being out in practice on their own?? From a clinical standpoint, that extra year of ortho residency has many advantages, especially if one plans on being a solo practitioner where they won't necessarily have another orthodontist right there to talk cases with

 

[charlestweed]

I bet there has to be at least 1 grad of the UOP 5 year program out there who has done this.

A good friend of mine did this. He was a physician in my home country. He came to the US when he was 30+ years old. He realized it would take too long to get the MD degree so he chose the easier shorter DDS route. He took all prerequisite classes at 2-3 different community colleges. He never attended a 4 year University. He took the DAT twice (he did horrible on the first DAT test). He got accepted to UOP dental school and became the top student in his class (he never admitted that he was the top student but his classmates told me he was). He got accepted to the 27-month UCLA ortho program (it's a 36 month program now). And that's how I knew him. I was a 2nd dental student and he was a 1st year ortho resident. It took him about 8 years.....from the time he first came to the US to the time he became an orthodontist.

 

[jay47]

A good friend of mine did this. He was a physician in my home country. He came to the US when he was 30+ years old. He realized it would take too long to get the MD degree so he chose the easier shorter DDS route. He took all prerequisite classes at 2-3 different community colleges. He never attended a 4 year University. He took the DAT twice (he did horrible on the first DAT test). He got accepted to UOP dental school and became the top student in his class (he never admitted that he was the top student but his classmates told me he was). He got accepted to the 27-month UCLA ortho program (it's a 36 month program now). And that's how I knew him. I was a 2nd dental student and he was a 1st year ortho resident. It took him about 8 years.....from the time he first came to the US to the time he became an orthodontist.

Sounds like quite a talented and motivated person to me.

 

[armorshell]

A good friend of mine did this. He was a physician in my home country. He came to the US when he was 30+ years old. He realized it would take too long to get the MD degree so he chose the easier shorter DDS route. He took all prerequisite classes at 2-3 different community colleges. He never attended a 4 year University. He took the DAT twice (he did horrible on the first DAT test). He got accepted to UOP dental school and became the top student in his class (he never admitted that he was the top student but his classmates told me he was). He got accepted to the 27-month UCLA ortho program (it's a 36 month program now). And that's how I knew him. I was a 2nd dental student and he was a 1st year ortho resident. It took him about 8 years.....from the time he first came to the US to the time he became an orthodontist.

But...the pathway to training for an international physician would be shorter than this. All they have to do is take the boards and complete 2-3 years of residency (depending on the state). Good for him though.

 

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

Hey guys

Im really gravitating towards orthodontistry but the cost and time investment are a turn-off because I have to finance myself. Does anyone know if there's any accelerated programs that would allow me to save a few years or is really cheap. Or is the 10-11 years and 500k debt inevitable?

This reminds me of my 5 year old son. Every time we drive to grandma's house he'll ask, "how long until we get there?" I tell him 30 min or whatever and he says, "Can't you just take a shortcut?" like I'm an idiot for not thinking of it myself.

 

[charlestweed]

But...the pathway to training for an international physician would be shorter than this. All they have to do is take the boards and complete 2-3 years of residency (depending on the state). Good for him though.

It was a lot easier to get accepted to medical residencies in the early 80s and that’s how my uncle can practice medicine without having to go to med school. But it was much more difficult (and almost impossible) to get accepted in the early 90s. Many foreign trained physicians I know had to go into other professions such as dentistry, pharmacy, med-tech etc.

 

[OG1]

Here's one thing to consider about the 2 vs. 3 year ortho programs. And I've had many a discussion about this with not only my wife (a 3 year ortho program grad) but also a few other ortho's out there (both 2 and 3 year programs).

A great deal of ortho is about the diagnosis. Once the diagnosis is arrived at, the appropriate treatment plan can be determined and begun. Where many orthodontists feel that the great "art" of their profession really happens (and also where many anal retentive referring docs feel the real "art" happens) is in how a case is finished. Given that the majority of ortho cases usally have about a 24 month course of treatment, and most ortho programs have their students with a couple of months of didactic work prior to the beginning of clinical treatment, how then can grads of a 2 year program really get to see the start to finish results of their work prior to being out in practice on their own?? From a clinical standpoint, that extra year of ortho residency has many advantages, especially if one plans on being a solo practitioner where they won't necessarily have another orthodontist right there to talk cases with

In a 2 year program you are transferred a boatload of cases that are in the finishing stage when you enter your 2nd year. You also start clinical work immediately at the beginning of the first year. Plus, my second year was nearly 100% clinic time, 8-4 every day - no superfluous classes, and research was fairly low key. As I understand it some three year programs have a significant amount of research and partially relevant classes that fill up your time.

Granted, there are likely some mental connections that are missed by not completely starting and finishing a tremendous number of cases. However, you will see every stage of treatment in a two year program.