Orthodontics vs. Endodontics

[cooldoc_2004]

Which one is tougher to get into?
Which has the higher setup cost for a private office?
Which has the higher overhead expenses?
Do you know of anyone who applied to both in the same year?
How would you manage the PASS application for both? Would separate recommendation letters and personal statement be required for both the programs?
How much do they approximately make just as associate dentists?

Mo007 from which local dealer did you get you quote from??

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[gryffindor]

Did I miss the memo that said General Dentists are going broke?

You could apply to both, but you're just delaying the inevitable. Instead of deciding in August which one you want to do, you're just delaying your decision till early December when Orthodontic admissions are decided (the admissions results are all announced on the same day for 95% of ortho programs). So basically, by applying to both at the same time, you are gaining an extra 3.5 months to procrastinate your decision.

 

[c132]

Both are boring as heck in my book.

 

[cooldoc_2004]

Over 250 views and just 2 replies!!
C'mon guys.

 

[DcS]

Not sure there are any exact answers to a lot of your questions, which is why most people will disagree on numbers. It seems most of the questions you want answered regard the financial aspect. Those are 2 very different fields, i would suggest choosing the one you like better of the two. They both make a very significant salary, so why not just pick the one you would be happier with and not based on salary? Just MHO.

 

[oms fan]

I totally agree with DcS. We're in dentistry...the money will be there. The last thing you want though is to be 5 yrs into a specialty and really not like it at all. Remember, once you specialize...that is ALL you do.

 

[cooldoc_2004]

Once you are a general practitioner how can it be that you don't like a field at all?After all both are speciaties of dentistry and general dentists do practice both of them.And I know orthodontists who do endo work as well, so I don't think the practice becomes limited to that field.

Wanted some views on the set up and overhead expenses for an ortho office??
What say guys?

 

[gryffindor]

And I know orthodontists who do endo work as well, so I don't think the practice becomes limited to that field.

Whoa. Don't know about orthodontists doing root canals. And on the flip side, I don't think endodontists would dabble in braces either.

This is the ADA definition of Orthodontics: Orthodontics and dentofacial orthopedics is the dental specialty that includes the diagnosis, prevention, interception, and correction of malocclusion, as well as neuromuscular and skeletal abnormalities of the developing or mature orofacial structures.

This is the ADA definition of Endodontics: Endodontics is the branch of dentistry which is concerned with the morphology, physiology and pathology of the human dental pulp and periradicular tissues. Its study and practice encompass the basic and clinical sciences including biology of the normal pulp, the etiology, diagnosis, prevention and treatment of diseases and injuries of the pulp and associated periradicular conditions.

Note the use of the word "malocclusion" for ortho and "pulp" for endo. The scope of each specialty really doesn't overlap and even if endo was necessary as part of treatment planning for an orthodontic case, the orthodontist should be referring it out to the endodontist or general dentist, depending on the practitioner's prefernce and severity of the endo case. If the person treatment planning the case was a general dentist, then yes, he could do the endo and the braces, but only if he was adequately trained to handle both. There are general dentists who do both, look over at DentalTown, however, I don't think the general dentist would be tackling the dilacerated molar with calcified canals in conjunction with the class III malocclusion.

Now if you are trained as an orthodontist and decide to start doing some endo on the side, no one can argue that you aren't trained to do endo since you did go to dental school and have a DDS. Maybe you're even really good at root canals b/c you did a general practice residency before ortho school where you got awesome endo experience. However, when word gets out around town that you are doing root canals - and word will get around b/c patients say things like "Oh yeah, my orthodontist did this root canal for me" when sitting in the general dentist's chair for their bi-annual cleaning & exam - watch your referrals drop fast. Ortho and endo are both referral dependent specialties, and if you don't want to lose your main referring dentists, it's best not to piss them off by overstepping your boundaries.

The orthodontist you know doing endo - who is doing the crown after the root canal? The orthodontist? Does the patient get sent back to the general dentist? I can see nothing but trouble in this situation.

People specialize because it is one aspect of dentistry interests them 24/7. The money is nice, but it's not the sole motivator b/c you have to give up a few years of a nice dentist salary to specialize. Not to mention that you often have to borrow a lot of money to pay for your specialty education.

Endo offices have the lowest overhead when you consider all aspects of dentistry.

Now how about some questions for you. Are you a dental student, or a pre-dent? Why are you considering both? With a little more info from you, maybe we can help you decide between the two.

 

[Energon]

As an endo, you probably start of with a higher pay due to the nature of the patient pool (lot of emergency cases referred from gen dents). As an ortho, it takes a longer time to set up your practice but I believe in the long run you can probably make a lot more money. They are two very different jobs with different requirements so choose very wisely. The fact that you are thinking about these means your grades are stellar and that is good... bottom line there is a lot of $$$$$$ out there if that is what you desire.

 

[cooldoc_2004]

Yeah Griffin I am a dental student and would be finishing school this year.
I am more interested in Ortho definitely but I like Endo too.So I want to apply to both and leave the final decision for later.What about the overahead costs for an ortho office?Is it much more than a general dentist's office or almost the same??

AMMD why does it take a longer time for an ortho to set up practice?
Also any idea on whether Orthodontists work as associates and how much do they make just as associates??

 

[Energon]

Here is my take on Endo and Ortho:
1. As an endo, you walk into an office and there are a plethora of patients in pain waiting for endo therapy, they are willing for any DMD/DDS endo to do it. I know 3 endo pg's who work a few evenings and weekends at GP clinics doing complex RCTs and pull in mad loot.

2. In ortho, you have to gain the trust of the parents for them to allow you to implement a lengthy and extremely expensive treatment plan on their child. The average figure is about 5 years (that is what pg ortho residents are told in practice mgmt lectures) I am sure it varies by where you choose to go into practice.

3. Although you can generate higher pay as an endo, in the long run a successful ortho practice can make you wealthier (as of now, but that may change).

4. The concern about endo is: the introduction of rotary instrumentation. It makes RCT so much easier for GP's... so there is a possibility that the easier cases will decrease for the specialists.

5. You have to be very honest with yourself. Endo is a lot more technique sensitive than ortho and from what I hear the most letigious field. Having said that, endo is lot more fun, very technology based and a lot more invasive (if that's what you fancy)

I am sorry I dont know much about the application process but I am sure some of the other blokes here can help you with that

 

[Energon]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, orthodontic specialist is the 2nd most overpaid job in the nation (1st highest overpaid proffessional)

 

[aphistis]

Here is my take on Endo and Ortho:
1. As an endo, you walk into an office and there are a plethora of patients in pain waiting for endo therapy, they are willing for any DMD/DDS endo to do it. I know 3 endo pg's who work a few evenings and weekends at GP clinics doing complex RCTs and pull in mad loot.

2. In ortho, you have to gain the trust of the parents for them to allow you to implement a lengthy and extremely expensive treatment plan on their child. The average figure is about 5 years (that is what pg ortho residents are told in practice mgmt lectures) I am sure it varies by where you choose to go into practice.

3. Although you can generate higher pay as an endo, in the long run a successful ortho practice can make you wealthier (as of now, but that may change).

4. The concern about endo is: the introduction of rotary instrumentation. It makes RCT so much easier for GP's... so there is a possibility that the easier cases will decrease for the specialists.

5. You have to be very honest with yourself. Endo is a lot more technique sensitive than ortho and from what I hear the most letigious field. Having said that, endo is lot more fun, very technology based and a lot more invasive (if that's what you fancy)

I am sorry I dont know much about the application process but I am sure some of the other blokes here can help you with that

AMMD, you're throwing a lot of assertions out in this thread...is this stuff we can confirm for ourselves, or are you just speculating?

 

[Energon]

Oh sorry for not having mentioned this before. When it comes to 'dentistry in practicallity for new grads', I always take the opinion of graduating pg's (ortho and endo in this case).
Also please note all the above scenarios are applicable with the following assumptions:
A). You are not going into/ taking over a practice from a parent. That totally changes everything. I am assuming that you are a graduate with no familial connections to the dental world.
B). You do a thorough research on practice set up. There are many firms who can do this for you but I usually refer to the US Census web sources, oral health fast stats, oral health state profiles etc. They are really great in telling you the populations, dentists and specialists/ #population (usually 100,000); income levels in certain areas etc.

As far as my point #3 about successful ortho practices on average making more money, that is also info that can be verified through various sources ranging from the IRS to stats listed in "Dental economics." It is also the general concensus among post grads. This is not to say its a hard and fast rule, I am sure there are some endodontists out there making more money than some orthodontists, heck there are GP's making more money than endo's and orthos's. Also after certain point you move into income brackets and a few thousand here or there dont really make a difference.

As far as the effects of rotary instrumentation is concerned, just think. Dental schools now incorporate it in their courses so that their undergrads are proficient in rotary. This definately eats up the specialists business. Some borderline cases involving dilacerated roots that were automatically sent out will probably stay in with new dentists being more proficient with rotary. In my mind, these cases were easy money for endodontists. They could do them with their eyes closed in a matter of minutes (ok thats just for effect, but you get the point). Now they have only the harder cases to deal with.

We should keep discussing this to a larger extent.

 

[dc-10]

3. Although you can generate higher pay as an endo, in the long run a successful ortho practice can make you wealthier (as of now, but that may change).

AMMD
I don't understand this. If the pay is higher in endo, how can you make more money in ortho in the long run?

 

[aphistis]

Oh sorry for not having mentioned this before. When it comes to 'dentistry in practicallity for new grads', I always take the opinion of graduating pg's (ortho and endo in this case).
Also please note all the above scenarios are applicable with the following assumptions:
A). You are not going into/ taking over a practice from a parent. That totally changes everything. I am assuming that you are a graduate with no familial connections to the dental world.
B). You do a thorough research on practice set up. There are many firms who can do this for you but I usually refer to the US Census web sources, oral health fast stats, oral health state profiles etc. They are really great in telling you the populations, dentists and specialists/ #population (usually 100,000); income levels in certain areas etc.

As far as my point #3 about successful ortho practices on average making more money, that is also info that can be verified through various sources ranging from the IRS to stats listed in "Dental economics." It is also the general concensus among post grads. This is not to say its a hard and fast rule, I am sure there are some endodontists out there making more money than some orthodontists, heck there are GP's making more money than endo's and orthos's. Also after certain point you move into income brackets and a few thousand here or there dont really make a difference.

As far as the effects of rotary instrumentation is concerned, just think. Dental schools now incorporate it in their courses so that their undergrads are proficient in rotary. This definately eats up the specialists business. Some borderline cases involving dilacerated roots that were automatically sent out will probably stay in with new dentists being more proficient with rotary. In my mind, these cases were easy money for endodontists. They could do them with their eyes closed in a matter of minutes (ok thats just for effect, but you get the point). Now they have only the harder cases to deal with.

We should keep discussing this to a larger extent.

OK...

I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but you still haven't produced anything specific that could pass as objective evidence to support all this. Any specific statistics, literature citations, etc.? No hard feelings, I hope; I'm just interested in seeing if any credible sources exist.

 

[comatose]

OK...

I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but you still haven't produced anything specific that could pass as objective evidence to support all this. Any specific statistics, literature citations, etc.? No hard feelings, I hope; I'm just interested in seeing if any credible sources exist.

ammd is full of bs.

 

[Energon]

ammd is full of bs.

ease up man... I am not really interested in either one of these fields. I recomend you talk to the Post grads. They usually have practice management lectures in their courses which undergradsa are allowed to sit on. That is the best way to learn the prospectives. Let me go back to some of these guys and get names articles etc. to help you guys out.

 

[oms fan]

...And I know orthodontists who do endo work as well, so I don't think the practice becomes limited to that field.

It took me a couple days but I've been waiting for an email. Each state determines its own policies. In my state, once a dentist has applied and obtained a specialty license, their practice is limited specifically to the scope of that specialty. So at least in my state an ortho can't do endo etc... Now I can't speak for what other states do. Just thought I'd back up what I said before...

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

It took me a couple days but I've been waiting for an email. Each state determines its own policies. In my state, once a dentist has applied and obtained a specialty license, their practice is limited specifically to the scope of that specialty. So at least in my state an ortho can't do endo etc... Now I can't speak for what other states do. Just thought I'd back up what I said before...

I don't think it's just a state thing; it's against the ADA code of ethics. Not to mention it's just bad business sense. You can still open up shop as a GP after completing a specialty residency, but you will not be allowed to call yourself an orthodontist,endodontist, etc...

 

[Energon]

It took me a couple days but I've been waiting for an email. Each state determines its own policies. In my state, once a dentist has applied and obtained a specialty license, their practice is limited specifically to the scope of that specialty. So at least in my state an ortho can't do endo etc... Now I can't speak for what other states do. Just thought I'd back up what I said before...

The laws are pretty shady about these things. You can do a residency (Ortho, Perio, etc) and still work as a general dentist. However, if you register your practice as an "Orthodontics Practice" or "Periodontist Practice" or refer to yourself as an "Orthodontist/ Periodontist", then you are strictly limited to that field. A specialist can be really ballsy and do work of another specialist (like an ortho doing endo work etc) and get away with it provided no one (patient, colleague, staff etc) complains. If they do, expect to get reamed by the ADA and consequently with a lawyer happy patient. In some states you can also have the pleasure of having your name listed on the Probation list news letter mailed to the entire dental community on a monthly basis.

At my school there are 7 faculty members who did a specialty but never practiced it, instead chose to stick with general dentistry. 4 of them are trained prosthodontists two are periodontists and one pedo.

 

[templedentist]

Answers are down below next to the questions. I look up all of my info and have spoken to many loan companies whose job it is to know these things.

Which one is tougher to get into? ORTHO FOR GRADES AND CLASS RANK (BUT FOR ENDO MOST PROGRAMS WANT TO SEE A GPR OR 2 YRS EXPERIENCE UNDER YOUR BELT)
Which has the higher setup cost for a private office? ORTHO (unless you buy a bunch of microscopes for endo)
Which has the higher overhead expenses? (ORTHO, look at any statistics. 65%-ortho, 45% endo on average)
Do you know of anyone who applied to both in the same year? YES
How would you manage the PASS application for both? Would separate recommendation letters and personal statement be required for both the programs? SEPARATE LETTERS FROM SEPARATE DEPTs
How much do they approximately make just as associate dentists? DEPENDS WHERE YOU WORK; WHICH STATE, COUNTY...... DON'T BE AN ASSOC., YOU WILL MAKE MUCH LESS THAN A PRIVATE PRACTITIONER. AGAIN LOOK AT THE STATISTICS OR TALK TO SOMEONE THAT SPECIALIZES IN GIVING LOANS TO DENTISTS.

Mo007 from which local dealer did you get you quote from??

 

[Jone]

just an FYI, many endo programs won't even look at your resume unless you've worked as a dentist for a year or two, or done a GPR. they seem to want experienced people, whereas in ortho you can often go right into a program after you get your DDS/DMD.

Which one is tougher to get into?
Which has the higher setup cost for a private office?
Which has the higher overhead expenses?
Do you know of anyone who applied to both in the same year?
How would you manage the PASS application for both? Would separate recommendation letters and personal statement be required for both the programs?
How much do they approximately make just as associate dentists?

Mo007 from which local dealer did you get you quote from??

 

[toothcaries]

Here is my take on Endo and Ortho:
1. As an endo, you walk into an office and there are a plethora of patients in pain waiting for endo therapy, they are willing for any DMD/DDS endo to do it. I know 3 endo pg's who work a few evenings and weekends at GP clinics doing complex RCTs and pull in mad loot.

2. In ortho, you have to gain the trust of the parents for them to allow you to implement a lengthy and extremely expensive treatment plan on their child. The average figure is about 5 years (that is what pg ortho residents are told in practice mgmt lectures) I am sure it varies by where you choose to go into practice.

3. Although you can generate higher pay as an endo, in the long run a successful ortho practice can make you wealthier (as of now, but that may change).

4. The concern about endo is: the introduction of rotary instrumentation. It makes RCT so much easier for GP's... so there is a possibility that the easier cases will decrease for the specialists.

5. You have to be very honest with yourself. Endo is a lot more technique sensitive than ortho and from what I hear the most letigious field. Having said that, endo is lot more fun, very technology based and a lot more invasive (if that's what you fancy)

I am sorry I dont know much about the application process but I am sure some of the other blokes here can help you with that

i tend to agree with this..

 

[dort-ort]

Which one is tougher to get into?
Which has the higher setup cost for a private office?
Which has the higher overhead expenses?
Do you know of anyone who applied to both in the same year?
How would you manage the PASS application for both? Would separate recommendation letters and personal statement be required for both the programs?
How much do they approximately make just as associate dentists?

Mo007 from which local dealer did you get you quote from??


It is such a ridiculous notion to even be thinking about applying to both specialty in the same year!!!! Is your fricken head screwed on correctly. It sounds as though you don't know what you want and just want to be greedy about the situation. First of, I can gaurantee that if you were to interview at an ortho program and you told them that you were also applying to endo you would be kicked out the door in a blink of an eye. And vice versa for endo interview. Secondly, faculty at these programs will think you are disingenuous and an idiot!!! They will say if you really want to do both then be a GP. Personally, I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are many good CE courses that will allow you to be competent in both and you can incorporate it into your practice and refer the tougher cases. Then as your clinical exposure widens your overall scope of the two specialties; maybe at that time your head will be properly screwed on and you will realize which specialty you like more and apply for residency in that area. Lastly, I would be surprised that you will have an easy time gettng recommendations from dental school faculty expressing their whole hearted support for you. Think about it, if you were that faculty member and you were to write a recommendation letter. How can you genuinely say this candidate has always wanted and is fully committed to the particular specialty when you know he is not!! It just is crazy. At my particular school, the dean would not even consider such a request to write two separate recommendation letters for different specialties -- it is totally silly.

So after digesting all the above. If you still feel the need to do both specialties. Then do them one at a time. Go to endo or ortho or fricken what ever you silly brain happens to be wishing to do that that time. Finish the residency and practice for awhile. Then go and apply to the other specialty. Don't apply to both the same year, you silly rabbit. What a stupid thing to conjure up in your greedy (cause i think thats why you are asking about it) little head.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Easy on the personal jabs, but keep the opinions rolling.

 

[texas_dds]

i also think applying to both is a horrible idea
the only way you could possibly apply to two is MAYBE:
ortho and gpr/aegd
OR
endo and gpr/aegd

but NOT ortho and endo
dort ort is right! you will get laughed right out of your interview if you even hint you are applying to both. both specialties want people wholly and completely dedicated to just their specialty. please dont ruin your chances with trying to do both - i think you need to be a super GP that does a bit of everything

 

[Bfletch1]

Hi everybody, I have a quick question for you all. I am interested in all 3 specialties and am trying to decide which one is best for me. Could someone explain the Pros/Cons of each of these specialties including avg Salary / hours spent per week/ and level of difficulty as far as getting into the programm. thanks.

 

[backaction]

I don't think it's just a state thing; it's against the ADA code of ethics. Not to mention it's just bad business sense. You can still open up shop as a GP after completing a specialty residency, but you will not be allowed to call yourself an orthodontist,endodontist, etc...

Just curious why the ADA is against someone with a specialty certificate doing general dentistry and still calling themselves a specialist (prosthodontist, endodontist, periodontist etc.) I mean you have a DDS/DMD so you're just as quailified as a GP having the same dental school training, plus you have a specialty certificate, so what's the big deal...you put in the extra time...I just don't see why a prosthodontist who calls themself a specialist can't do class 2 amalgams or a root canal as well as full mouth rehab. or why a periodontist can't do crown lenghtening and then take a crown impression. Of course it's ok for a GP to do crown lengthening without being a specialist or a GP doing tough molar endo, that could also be done by en endodontist, so what's the big ethical issue here?

 

[dolor de muela]

Just curious why the ADA is against someone with a specialty certificate doing general dentistry and still calling themselves a specialist (prosthodontist, endodontist, periodontist etc.) I mean you have a DDS/DMD so you're just as quailified as a GP having the same dental school training, plus you have a specialty certificate, so what's the big deal...you put in the extra time...I just don't see why a prosthodontist who calls themself a specialist can't do class 2 amalgams or a root canal as well as full mouth rehab. or why a periodontist can't do crown lenghtening and then take a crown impression. Of course it's ok for a GP to do crown lengthening without being a specialist or a GP doing tough molar endo, that could also be done by en endodontist, so what's the big ethical issue here?

It has to do with GPs wanting to keep their patients. Think about it, a patient is referred to a specialist for a dental procedure then the patient returns to the GP for further treatment. It’s a win-win situation. The specialist gets referrals and the GP gets support with difficult cases as needed. Not to mention the patient gets quality care. If the specialist keeps the patient, then what incentive does a GP have to refer? Also most specialists don't have the time to treat all of their patients’ oral needs. They are too busy and make too much money doing what they specialized in. Lastly, I only know of one specialty that wants to do prophys, give oral hygiene instructions, and scale teeth all day long . Thank goodness the ADA came up with Periodontists .

 

[dolor de muela]

Hi everybody, I have a quick question for you all. I am interested in all 3 specialties and am trying to decide which one is best for me. Could someone explain the Pros/Cons of each of these specialties including avg Salary / hours spent per week/ and level of difficulty as far as getting into the programm. thanks.

WOW! Sounds to me like you need to do some more learning/observing in these fields. They are way different. You can’t decide which specialty to pursue based on salary, competitiveness and hours worked. If you have a passion for the field then you’ll pursue it no matter what. Just out of curiosity, why these three specialties? I hope it’s not on reputation and hearsay alone (i.e. big money not too stressful). If you’re still stuck after two years of dental school and observing specialists in each field, then buzz back and I’ll tell you why you should pursue OMS instead.

 

[nuartywayne]

Just curious why the ADA is against someone with a specialty certificate doing general dentistry and still calling themselves a specialist (prosthodontist, endodontist, periodontist etc.) I mean you have a DDS/DMD so you're just as quailified as a GP having the same dental school training, plus you have a specialty certificate, so what's the big deal...you put in the extra time...I just don't see why a prosthodontist who calls themself a specialist can't do class 2 amalgams or a root canal as well as full mouth rehab. or why a periodontist can't do crown lenghtening and then take a crown impression. Of course it's ok for a GP to do crown lengthening without being a specialist or a GP doing tough molar endo, that could also be done by en endodontist, so what's the big ethical issue here?

It is only to protect those who did poorly on Dent School and couldn't cut it in the specialty world. Makes no sense why make Boards P/F where is the benefit for that?

 

[tooth knockn]

Both are boring as heck in my book.

I agree