Orthodontist Income New Grad

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OncePreDent

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Hi all,

I recently matched to an orthodontic residency. I was wondering if there are current residents or recent grads who could give an idea of the income. The ones that I have talked to have been saying that they have some offers for $250kish after graduating. I know you make about the same as a general dentist, but is this what I should expect? I also hear that it stays around $250k/doesn't change much at all after practicing for years, is this true too?

It also sounds like it's difficult to find orthodontic jobs now, at least in desirable locations.
 
From the people I've talked to, they make $250k/year. One ortho practice owner said the going rate for ortho is 1200-1500/day. He stated that if you have high student loans, then $1200 isn't enough to pay the loans back. Ownership seems to be the way to go.
 
Yeah that's what I've been hearing too. $250k sounds like the going rate for an orthodontist associate right now, from what I'm hearing. Basically makes it impossible for most people to pay off loans/live at that income.

Especially if they're already in $300k from dental school and tacking on another $300k for ortho residency. $600k at around 9% interest isn't pretty... The value just isn't there sadly

Edit: It seems like the only specialty in dentistry where your income doesn't increase. Like OMFS, Endo, DA, Perio, Pros, all have a significant pay increase. Whereas ortho stays about the same as GDs. I guess that's what happens when you join the dying field?
 
Ownership seems to be the way to go.
Hard doing ownership when you're over $500k in debt and want a family. Idk how I'd get a loan to buy a practice lol

But I agree, ownership is the way to go, whether you're a GD or any specialist.
 
The starting offers I got out of residency ranged from $900/day to $1600/day. Standard seems to be around 1200-1500 as mentioned above.
 
Hard doing ownership when you're over $500k in debt and want a family. Idk how I'd get a loan to buy a practice lol

But I agree, ownership is the way to go, whether you're a GD or any specialist.
I would agree. Ownership is riskier and less profitable now though with DSO's leverage.
 
For someone who just got into ortho in my late 30s this is so demoralizing. I made about 300-350k a year as a GP doing mainly ortho. I potentially could go through residency and make less. Not an ideal situation in the slightest.
 
I preface this by saying I don’t actually know.

But I went to dental school for four years and had debt. I went straight out to practicing as a GP. I do a decent amount of ortho. I make over $400k per year. I can’t imagine spending $200-$300k more, delaying my income for two to three years, to graduate and struggle finding a full time job and make less than I’m making now. A lot of the orthodontists in my area have sold to corporate because they just can’t make it work like they used to. The couple of Orthos who remain independent are doing everything they can do to stay independent, but the way they talk about it to me it seems like they know the writing is on the wall. It’s not a matter of if, it’s when. I don’t really see new orthodontists opening up. It’s just either the corporations or the same established Orthos trying to remain independent.

I graduated dental school $250k in debt and paid it off in a little over a year. Had I gone to ortho residency it would have been over $500k. The math just doesn’t add up for many people. And then you add in that my friends who do ortho are driving far in between practices and seeing up to 100 patients in a day. It just seems insane to me.
 
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For someone who just got into ortho in my late 30s this is so demoralizing. I made about 300-350k a year as a GP doing mainly ortho. I potentially could go through residency and make less. Not an ideal situation in the slightest.

Yeah it's pretty rough... I would be tempted to stay as a GP if I were in your shoes and doing mainly ortho, unless you already started residency.

But from what I've heard from my mentor and recent grads, around $250k is normal. I know orthodontists who have been practicing for 10-15 years who are still at the $250k mark, full-time.
 
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I can’t imagine spending $200-$300k more, delaying my income for two to three years, to graduate and struggle finding a full time job and make less than I’m making now. I lot of the orthodontists in my area have sold to corporate because they just can’t make it work like they used to. The couple of Orthos who remain independent are doing everything they can do to stay independent, but the way they talk about it to me it seems like they know the writing is on the wall. It’s not a matter of it, it’s when. I don’t really see new orthodontists opening up. It’s just either the corporations or the same established Orthos trying to remain independent.

I graduated dental school $250k in debt and paid it off in a little over a year. Had I gone to ortho residency it would have been over $500k. The math just doesn’t add up for many people. And then you add in that my friends who do ortho are driving far in between practices and seeing up to 100 patients in a day. It just seems insane to me.
lol you aren't wrong about this, the 2-3 years of lost income is killer.

Ortho sadly is changing/has changed and not for the better for orthodontists.
 
lol you aren't wrong about this, the 2-3 years of lost income is killer.

Ortho sadly is changing/has changed and not for the better for orthodontists.
The other thing is that it limits you to just orthodontics. That was once looked at as a good thing, but I like that I’m able to do different things to make my income. If fewer people are starting ortho because the economy is bad, there are still people who will need root canals or extractions because of pain, despite a bad economy.

If AI continues to make it easier for GPs to do orthodontics, how can an orthodontist respond to supplement their income?
 
The other thing is that it limits you to just orthodontics. That was once looked at as a good thing, but I like that I’m able to do different things to make my income. If fewer people are starting ortho because the economy is bad, there are still people who will need root canals or extractions because of pain, despite a bad economy.

If AI continues to make it easier for GPs to do orthodontics, how can an orthodontist respond to supplement their income?
Very smart.

Think about how much orthodontic technology will progress in the next 10-15 years. It's already changed significantly in the last 10 years, allowing more GPs to treat ortho cases. Not a promising outlook for new orthodontists.
 
Yeah it's pretty rough... I would be tempted to stay as a GP if I were in your shoes and doing mainly ortho, unless you already started residency.

But from what I've heard from my mentor and recent grads, around $250k is normal. I know orthodontists who have been practicing for 10-15 years who are still at the $250k mark, full-time.
Wow! 10 years out and still at 250k how is that possible? Do they own or associate??
 
Wow! 10 years out and still at 250k how is that possible? Do they own or associate??
Both owners and associates. I think it is really common, at least with the orthodontists that I've spoken to.

One of my mentors was a GD for around 15 years before becoming an orthodontist (for another 15 years), and he has said to me many times, "I made significantly more per year as a dentist than I ever did as an orthodontist." Another orthodontist I've spoken with, who owns his own clinic, has been in practice for about 25 years and earns around $250k per year. The majority of new grads and associates I talk to have been around the $250k mark.

I also know a few orthodontists who have gone bankrupt trying to start their own practices. I don't know of any GDs who have gone bankrupt trying to do the same.
 
Hard doing ownership when you're over $500k in debt and want a family. Idk how I'd get a loan to buy a practice lol

But I agree, ownership is the way to go, whether you're a GD or any specialist.
Ownership is possible with the high student loans. That's my goal after residency. All the Orthos I know who own their practice makes significantly more than $300k.
 
Ownership is possible with the high student loans. That's my goal after residency. All the Orthos I know who own their practice makes significantly more than $300k.

I have heard the same.
 
Both owners and associates. I think it is really common, at least with the orthodontists that I've spoken to.

One of my mentors was a GD for around 15 years before becoming an orthodontist (for another 15 years), and he has said to me many times, "I made significantly more per year as a dentist than I ever did as an orthodontist." Another orthodontist I've spoken with, who owns his own clinic, has been in practice for about 25 years and earns around $250k per year. The majority of new grads and associates I talk to have been around the $250k mark.

I also know a few orthodontists who have gone bankrupt trying to start their own practices. I don't know of any GDs who have gone bankrupt trying to do the same.
What are your thoughts on the outlook for peds? What is the average income for an associate peds?
 
What are your thoughts on the outlook for peds? What is the average income for an associate peds?
My friend who is peds makes about $300k per year working 4 days per week. He sees a high volume of patients doing low production procedures and can’t wait to get out of it. Benefits were a short residency that was paid, but he’s not optimistic about the field.
 
Ownership is possible with the high student loans. That's my goal after residency. All the Orthos I know who own their practice makes significantly more than $300k.
What have you been hearing for that? Because I've heard significantly more owners in the $250k range than higher.

From what I've heard, in a typical ortho market, 1-2 orthodontic offices controls/has 80% of the referrals/patients.
 
What are your thoughts on the outlook for peds? What is the average income for an associate peds?
I've been hearing $400k for peds, but honestly have no clue. That said, I think the outlook for pediatrics is really strong. Probably 8 out of 10 orthodontists I’ve talked to have told me to go into peds because they think the future is that good.

A lot of them said doing both peds and ortho makes a ton of sense. They’ve also mentioned that in pediatric offices, getting ortho patients is basically a no-brainer ("shooting fish in a barrel"). While shadowing peds offices, I've seen how excited parents are once they find out the pediatric dentist also does ortho. They’re pumped because they already trust that dentist and feel comfortable with them. The Peds dentist wouldn’t even bring it up, parents would ask about it themselves after seeing a poster in the waiting room saying ortho is done in-house. They already trust the pediatric dentist, so they’re immediately on board and want everything done there. A lot different than in an ortho office where the consult is the 1st time meeting the patient.
 
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What have you been hearing for that? Because I've heard significantly more owners in the $250k range than higher.

From what I've heard, in a typical ortho market, 1-2 orthodontic offices controls/has 80% of the referrals/patients.
A good thing about ortho is that you can market direct to consumer without depending heavily on referrals.
 
A good thing about ortho is that you can market direct to consumer without depending heavily on referrals.
One of my local orthodontists sends us various gifts for referrals, but my favorite is the ice cream truck he sends around every summer. As long as that keeps coming he’ll have a hold on our referrals 😂
 
One of my local orthodontists sends us various gifts for referrals, but my favorite is the ice cream truck he sends around every summer. As long as that keeps coming he’ll have a hold on our referrals 😂
What Is the best way for a new ortho to introduce themself to you? Asking for myself, so that I have a legitimate approach to ask for referrals in the future?
 
What Is the best way for a new ortho to introduce themself to you? Asking for myself, so that I have a legitimate approach to ask for referrals in the future?
That’s a good question. I always like when someone comes in and actually takes a few minutes to get to know me. The staff appreciate treats so bringing around cookies or something is always good. But at the end of the day sending the ice cream truck is a pretty grand gesture that we all appreciate, so it would be tough for a new doc to compete with that. It’s sad, but that sort of stuff wins over offices.

That one orthodontist usually sends us the following throughout the year:
1) A ton of fresh blueberries
2) a coupon for lunch for the office from a local Italian place
3) An ice cream truck
4) Some sunscreen and beach gear

The endodontist we refer to gives us a nice gift card to a really nice restaurant group in the city every Christmas. They also send a Kona ice truck every summer.

As long as they do good work and support us when needed, they’ll continue to get referrals until the next best gifts come around.
 
That’s a good question. I always like when someone comes in and actually takes a few minutes to get to know me. The staff appreciate treats so bringing around cookies or something is always good. But at the end of the day sending the ice cream truck is a pretty grand gesture that we all appreciate, so it would be tough for a new doc to compete with that. It’s sad, but that sort of stuff wins over offices.

That one orthodontist usually sends us the following throughout the year:
1) A ton of fresh blueberries
2) a coupon for lunch for the office from a local Italian place
3) An ice cream truck
4) Some sunscreen and beach gear

The endodontist we refer to gives us a nice gift card to a really nice restaurant group in the city every Christmas. They also send a Kona ice truck every summer.

As long as they do good work and support us when needed, they’ll continue to get referrals until the next best gifts come around.
Do you care about personal relationships too? Like, is that a factor- going out for lunch, golf, etc., or does the only thing that really matters are the gifts?
 
Do you care about personal relationships too? Like, is that a factor- going out for lunch, golf, etc., or does the only thing that really matters are the gifts?
Personal relationships would be great. As an associate of a couple of years I’d say I haven’t really seen that many of them are interested in forming personal relationships with an associate. Even though I pretty much run the busiest office in our group, I could leave tomorrow and a new associate would be in there. The one orthodontist always talks about us going out for lunch, but both of us are busy, and it never actually happens. I’d imagine it might be different for an owner.
 
In my very saturated city Orthos are paid $1200-1500 daily. The DSO Orthos average ~390k with bonuses. Owners make roughly the same, unless you’re one of the 2-3 standout offices in town. It’s extremely difficult to find full-time work here as an associate. Know people who struggled for months to find a part-time job.

$250k sounds like Utah pay… the lowest in the country.
 
In my very saturated city Orthos are paid $1200-1500 daily. The DSO Orthos average ~390k with bonuses. Owners make roughly the same, unless you’re one of the 2-3 standout offices in town. It’s extremely difficult to find full-time work here as an associate. Know people who struggled for months to find a part-time job.

$250k sounds like Utah pay… the lowest in the country.
The new grad orthos I've talked to have been getting job offers in FL, PA, NY, CA, CO, MN, WI, but in the desirable cities. They were also saying it has been difficult to find full-time work (in desirable locations). Most job offers have been 1-2 days a week, with some at 3 days a week.

Do you think it's challenging to find full-time work just in your city or across the board for orthodontists?
 
@New_Vegas what are your thoughts? Feel like you could really contribute here.
The thing about general dentists doing ortho, is that it's not as easy as most people on here think. When you are in a residency, you are completely lost for about the first year. And this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to end in your morning seminars. It's only after doing it full time for about about 1 to 1.5 years does it finally start to click, and this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to finish every day. General dentist can learn to cherry pick easy cases, but they will eventually get themselves in trouble with difficult cases they can't do. Some ortho residencies are garbage, and people leave those residencies being rather incompetent in ortho.

Luckily for me, I had a good residency, with exposure to very difficult cases, with experience doing surgery cases, MARPE cases, placing TADs, doing many impacted canine cases, using lasers for soft tissue exposures... etc. etc.

So there will always be a need for orthodontists.

However, this is the problem. The need for orthodontists is shrinking, as the supply of orthodontists is increasing at an alarming rate. New orthodontists aren't really needed, anywhere. People are having less kids. General dentists are doing a lot of the cases.

This creates a very bad situation for current and especially new orthodontists. It's challenging to find full time work across the board. Most of the time, it will require driving anywhere from 0-2 hours, and picking up multiple jobs. Good luck finding 5 days a week at one office. That's very rare.

When you work at one office for just a few days a month, or even one day a week, it's going to be an awful experience for you and for the patients. It's a bad deal for the orthodontist, because it's hard to get assistants that are actually competent and fast at doing the ortho work. Generally you are borrowing assistants that work full time elsewhere, generally not in ortho. So it's up to you, the orthodontist, to teach an ever revolving staff of assistants who never really get that competent at the job. It's frustrating and causes burn out. It's bad for the patients because you aren't around for emergencies, which are common. So good luck trying to build up an office that you are only there a few days a month.

Many orthodontists can't find full time work, so they just start their own offices. This is a nightmare in today's world. I'm a member of some orthodontic only groups where we talk about the state of the field. Those who start an office say they generally can't pay themselves after one year because it's so slow starting out. It seems they generally can't pay themselves after two years because it's still so slow. After about 5 years, they generally can pay themselves, but they may not be making as much money as they would like.

It's still possible to be successful as a private practice orthodontist. But you have to work very hard. If you are an owner, open about 30 hours per week, expect your workload to be at least 60 hours per week. You have to constantly be thinking about the next community event you are going to go to, your next marketing move, how you are going to outcompete that office right down the street that offers the exact same services you do.

People go into this field thinking it's going to be a "good lifestyle". I've read that on here multiple times. What lifestyle are they talking about? Having to drive around 2+ hours per day in different directions to find work? Spending 80+ hours per week on their own office? Being in debt for the rest of their life? What "lifestyle" are they talking about?

Disregard advice from people who entered this field 20+ years ago with 1/5 of the debt of current orthodontists, and when the field was less than half as saturated as it is now. They earned their money and became financially secure before the current nightmare situation for current orthodontists.

I'm one of those orthodontists who bought a small, and struggling orthodontic practice. I'm working on it over 80 hours per week, and am starting to see growth in the practice, but it comes at a high cost to your personal life. And I haven't been able to pay myself much in the last two years that I've been with the practice. I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's going to come at the expense of just taking patients away from other orthodontists nearby. Sorry guys. Eventually, someone younger with more energy will come by and just start taking the ever shrinking pool of patients away from me. Or some corporation with deeper pockets to market..
 
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Yeah everything

The thing about general dentists doing ortho, is that it's not as easy as most people on here think. When you are in a residency, you are completely lost for about the first year. And this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to end in your morning seminars. It's only after doing it full time for about about 1 to 1.5 years does it finally start to click, and this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to finish every day. General dentist can learn to cherry pick easy cases, but they will eventually get themselves in trouble with difficult cases they can't do. Some ortho residencies are garbage, and people leave those residencies being rather incompetent in ortho.

Luckily for me, I had a good residency, with exposure to very difficult cases, with experience doing surgery cases, MARPE cases, placing TADs, doing many impacted canine cases, using lasers for soft tissue exposures... etc. etc.

So there will always be a need for orthodontists.

However, this is the problem. The need for orthodontists is shrinking, as the supply of orthodontists is increasing at an alarming rate. New orthodontists aren't really needed, anywhere. People are having less kids. General dentists are doing a lot of the cases.

This creates a very bad situation for current and especially new orthodontists. It's challenging to find full time work across the board. Most of the time, it will require driving anywhere from 0-2 hours, and picking up multiple jobs. Good luck finding 5 days a week at one office. That's very rare.

When you work at one office for just a few days a month, or even one day a week, it's going to be an awful experience for you and for the patients. It's a bad deal for the orthodontist, because it's hard to get assistants that are actually competent and fast at doing the ortho work. Generally you are borrowing assistants that work full time elsewhere, generally not in ortho. So it's up to you, the orthodontist, to teach an ever revolving staff of assistants who never really get that competent at the job. It's frustrating and causes burn out. It's bad for the patients because you aren't around for emergencies, which are common. So good luck trying to build up an office that you are only there a few days a month.

Many orthodontists can't find full time work, so they just start their own offices. This is a nightmare in today's world. I'm a member of some orthodontic only groups where we talk about the state of the field. Those who start an office say they generally can't pay themselves after one year because it's so slow starting out. It seems they generally can't pay themselves after two years because it's still so slow. After about 5 years, they generally can pay themselves, but they may not be making as much money as they would like.

It's still possible to be successful as a private practice orthodontist. But you have to work very hard. If you are an owner, open about 30 hours per week, expect your workload to be at least 60 hours per week. You have to constantly be thinking about the next community event you are going to go to, your next marketing move, how you are going to outcompete that office right down the street that offers the exact same services you do.

People go into this field thinking it's going to be a "good lifestyle". I've read that on here multiple times. What lifestyle are they talking about? Having to drive around 2+ hours per day in different directions to find work? Spending 80+ hours per week on their own office? Being in debt for the rest of their life? What "lifestyle" are they talking about?

Disregard advice from people who entered this field 20+ years ago with 1/5 of the debt of current orthodontists, and when the field was less than half as saturated as it is now. They earned their money and became financially secure before the current nightmare situation for current orthodontists.

I'm one of those orthodontists who bought a small, and struggling orthodontic practice. I'm working on it over 80 hours per week, and am starting to see growth in the practice, but it comes at a high cost to your personal life. And I haven't been able to pay myself much in the last two years that I've been with the practice. I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's going to come at the expense of just taking patients away from other orthodontists nearby. Sorry guys. Eventually, someone younger with more energy will come by and just start taking the ever shrinking pool of patients away from me. Or some corporation with deeper pockets to market..

So for a person that hates doing dentistry with no debt, would going into ortho be a good idea or just continue what they are doing?
 
So for a person that hates doing dentistry with no debt, would going into ortho be a good idea or just continue what they are doing?
Going into orthodontics won't solve any of your problems. It will just create different ones for you. If you hate general dentistry, you probably will hate orthodontics. If I were you and had no debt, I would work hard in general dentistry, save almost all my income for retirement, then get out of this field as quickly as I could.
 
Going into orthodontics won't solve any of your problems. It will just create different ones for you. If you hate general dentistry, you probably will hate orthodontics. If I were you and had no debt, I would work hard in general dentistry, save almost all my income for retirement, then get out of this field as quickly as I could.
This is good advice. And while the field may be changing, there are still plenty of opportunities out there for a general dentist to work hard, make good money the first 5-10 years of their career, and then have the freedom to do whatever they want that avoids more debt and the lost opportunity cost of residency.
 
The thing about general dentists doing ortho, is that it's not as easy as most people on here think. When you are in a residency, you are completely lost for about the first year. And this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to end in your morning seminars. It's only after doing it full time for about about 1 to 1.5 years does it finally start to click, and this is after reviewing multiple cases from start to finish every day. General dentist can learn to cherry pick easy cases, but they will eventually get themselves in trouble with difficult cases they can't do. Some ortho residencies are garbage, and people leave those residencies being rather incompetent in ortho.

Luckily for me, I had a good residency, with exposure to very difficult cases, with experience doing surgery cases, MARPE cases, placing TADs, doing many impacted canine cases, using lasers for soft tissue exposures... etc. etc.

So there will always be a need for orthodontists.

However, this is the problem. The need for orthodontists is shrinking, as the supply of orthodontists is increasing at an alarming rate. New orthodontists aren't really needed, anywhere. People are having less kids. General dentists are doing a lot of the cases.

This creates a very bad situation for current and especially new orthodontists. It's challenging to find full time work across the board. Most of the time, it will require driving anywhere from 0-2 hours, and picking up multiple jobs. Good luck finding 5 days a week at one office. That's very rare.

When you work at one office for just a few days a month, or even one day a week, it's going to be an awful experience for you and for the patients. It's a bad deal for the orthodontist, because it's hard to get assistants that are actually competent and fast at doing the ortho work. Generally you are borrowing assistants that work full time elsewhere, generally not in ortho. So it's up to you, the orthodontist, to teach an ever revolving staff of assistants who never really get that competent at the job. It's frustrating and causes burn out. It's bad for the patients because you aren't around for emergencies, which are common. So good luck trying to build up an office that you are only there a few days a month.

Many orthodontists can't find full time work, so they just start their own offices. This is a nightmare in today's world. I'm a member of some orthodontic only groups where we talk about the state of the field. Those who start an office say they generally can't pay themselves after one year because it's so slow starting out. It seems they generally can't pay themselves after two years because it's still so slow. After about 5 years, they generally can pay themselves, but they may not be making as much money as they would like.

It's still possible to be successful as a private practice orthodontist. But you have to work very hard. If you are an owner, open about 30 hours per week, expect your workload to be at least 60 hours per week. You have to constantly be thinking about the next community event you are going to go to, your next marketing move, how you are going to outcompete that office right down the street that offers the exact same services you do.

People go into this field thinking it's going to be a "good lifestyle". I've read that on here multiple times. What lifestyle are they talking about? Having to drive around 2+ hours per day in different directions to find work? Spending 80+ hours per week on their own office? Being in debt for the rest of their life? What "lifestyle" are they talking about?

Disregard advice from people who entered this field 20+ years ago with 1/5 of the debt of current orthodontists, and when the field was less than half as saturated as it is now. They earned their money and became financially secure before the current nightmare situation for current orthodontists.

I'm one of those orthodontists who bought a small, and struggling orthodontic practice. I'm working on it over 80 hours per week, and am starting to see growth in the practice, but it comes at a high cost to your personal life. And I haven't been able to pay myself much in the last two years that I've been with the practice. I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's going to come at the expense of just taking patients away from other orthodontists nearby. Sorry guys. Eventually, someone younger with more energy will come by and just start taking the ever shrinking pool of patients away from me. Or some corporation with deeper pockets to market..
I hope more people wanting to specialize read this. I know a recent ortho grad who still hasn't found full time work yet because he's geographically limited. Yet, even though the job market is poor, it's STILL competitive. People interested in specializing should look into Endo, OMFS, and DA.
 
However, this is the problem. The need for orthodontists is shrinking, as the supply of orthodontists is increasing at an alarming rate. New orthodontists aren't really needed, anywhere. People are having less kids. General dentists are doing a lot of the cases.

This creates a very bad situation for current and especially new orthodontists. It's challenging to find full time work across the board. Most of the time, it will require driving anywhere from 0-2 hours, and picking up multiple jobs. Good luck finding 5 days a week at one office. That's very rare.

When you work at one office for just a few days a month, or even one day a week, it's going to be an awful experience for you and for the patients. It's a bad deal for the orthodontist, because it's hard to get assistants that are actually competent and fast at doing the ortho work. Generally you are borrowing assistants that work full time elsewhere, generally not in ortho. So it's up to you, the orthodontist, to teach an ever revolving staff of assistants who never really get that competent at the job. It's frustrating and causes burn out. It's bad for the patients because you aren't around for emergencies, which are common. So good luck trying to build up an office that you are only there a few days a month.

Many orthodontists can't find full time work, so they just start their own offices. This is a nightmare in today's world. I'm a member of some orthodontic only groups where we talk about the state of the field. Those who start an office say they generally can't pay themselves after one year because it's so slow starting out. It seems they generally can't pay themselves after two years because it's still so slow. After about 5 years, they generally can pay themselves, but they may not be making as much money as they would like.

It's still possible to be successful as a private practice orthodontist. But you have to work very hard. If you are an owner, open about 30 hours per week, expect your workload to be at least 60 hours per week. You have to constantly be thinking about the next community event you are going to go to, your next marketing move, how you are going to outcompete that office right down the street that offers the exact same services you do.

People go into this field thinking it's going to be a "good lifestyle". I've read that on here multiple times. What lifestyle are they talking about? Having to drive around 2+ hours per day in different directions to find work? Spending 80+ hours per week on their own office? Being in debt for the rest of their life? What "lifestyle" are they talking about?
Thank you for outlining the reality of orthodontics for new graduates and those considering starting private practices. I really appreciate your insight into what the field looks like today and where it's going.

This is a post that anyone considering orthodontics should read and read again. I honestly think it deserves its own forum post and should be pinned so more people thinking about ortho see it.

I also hope that your +80-hour workweeks of hard work pay off, you deserve it.
 
I knew ortho was going downhill, but man it’s more abysmal than I even thought. Maybe DA will become the new princess lifestyle specialty
 
OK. Let me try to explain the nature of our job to many of my non-ortho/non-specialist friends here on this forum. As a specialist, you have to travel to work at different offices. All of my endo, OS, pedo friends have to travel. My GP friend, who works as a F/T exodontist, has to travel. My periodontist wife has to travel. I didn’t know about this “traveling thing” either when I was an ortho resident. I thought that after the residency training, I would be offered a full time job like what most of my GP friends got after graduation.

It’s true that ortho is not the same as it once was. But one thing that hasn’t changed is the traveling part. 25+ years ago, when I was a young new grad (when ortho was in its golden year), I had to travel to 5 different corp offices in order to maintain a 23 days/month work schedule. Now with less patients (at each office), I have to travel to even more offices (total of 8 offices…3 are my own, 4 are corp offices, and 1 is a pedo/ortho office) despite working less days (17 days/month) than before.

My cousin, who’s a MD anesthesiologist, currently works for this OS owner. According to my cousin, this OS owner flies to another state (in addition to working at his own office) to work for a company called Clear Choice, where he gets paid $25-30k a day for placing a lot of implants.

My brother is a gastroenterologist. He gets paid $5-6k for giving each CE lecture for the drug companies. It’s a good pay right? But he has to fly all over the country….sleep in the hotels away from his wife and 4 young kids. Gotta do what you gotta do to support your family.

So what’s my point? The “traveling part” is not a bad thing, if you are compensated well for the day that you are there. A lot of jobs require people to travel. Plumbers, electricians, gardeners etc all have to drive to different places to work. Get a full self driving Tesla and the 2-hour commute will no longer be an issue. It’s almost as good as Waymo, the robotaxi cars that you see in big cities like LA and SF.

If you don’t want to travel to multiple offices, you shouldn’t specialize. If you don’t want to go door to meet the referring GPs (when you become an owner), then you shouldn’t specialize. Nothing is easy in life.
 
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All of this negativity begs the question…why would anyone voluntarily choose to go to ortho residency then??
 
All of this negativity begs the question…why would anyone voluntarily choose to go to ortho residency then??
What @Rick Sorkin says is exactly correct. People grow up and look at the 55 year old orthodontist they had when they were a kid and think that’s the lifestyle they’ll have. Well it isn’t anymore. That orthodontist didn’t have the same level of debt or competition. Other people voluntarily choose it because our whole lives we are competitive people. You try to get into the best college you can. You try to get into the best/cheapest dental school you can. People are so used to competing they have the misconception that you have to pursue specialties to be successful. Very few people have the ability to think independently and stop and think about the math and if the numbers make sense. Ortho is still very competitive. Outside of a couple of schools that take anyone with a pulse, you still have to have good grades and be at the top of your class. People just assume that makes it all worth it.

At some point you have to get out of the rat race and think about what makes sense. It takes a certain level of maturity. I don’t blame the 20 year old who lacks that maturity and decides to go to a $700k dental school. I blame their parents. Their brains aren’t fully developed. But when you’re a 26 year old dental student, you need to start to be able to think for yourself. Is an extra $200k of debt worth it if I make x per year? Not when you’re already $500k in the hole.
 
What @Rick Sorkin says is exactly correct. People grow up and look at the 55 year old orthodontist they had when they were a kid and think that’s the lifestyle they’ll have. Well it isn’t anymore. That orthodontist didn’t have the same level of debt or competition. Other people voluntarily choose it because our whole lives we are competitive people. You try to get into the best college you can. You try to get into the best/cheapest dental school you can. People are so used to competing they have the misconception that you have to pursue specialties to be successful. Very few people have the ability to think independently and stop and think about the math and if the numbers make sense. Ortho is still very competitive. Outside of a couple of schools that take anyone with a pulse, you still have to have good grades and be at the top of your class. People just assume that makes it all worth it.

At some point you have to get out of the rat race and think about what makes sense. It takes a certain level of maturity. I don’t blame the 20 year old who lacks that maturity and decides to go to a $700k dental school. I blame their parents. Their brains aren’t fully developed. But when you’re a 26 year old dental student, you need to start to be able to think for yourself. Is an extra $200k of debt worth it if I make x per year? Not when you’re already $500k in the hole.
I agree, but if you can get into a cheap or paying ortho program it should be worth it just in terms of longevity compared to GP. The work is so much more gratifying, no doubt about it. If you can work 1-2 years longer as an ortho you make up the investment in the back end
 
I agree, but if you can get into a cheap or paying ortho program it should be worth it just in terms of longevity compared to GP. The work is so much more gratifying, no doubt about it. If you can work 1-2 years longer as an ortho you make up the investment in the back end
Definitely worth considering if you’re passionate about it and it’s something you envision yourself doing for a long time and you can do it at one of the few paid residencies! There’s something to be said for the better ergonomics, easier physical difficulty of the profession, and longevity aspect.

I personally don’t want to work when I’m that old. I’ve done well as a general dentist. To the point that I really probably don’t have to work much longer and I just turned 30.

And to be clear, I’m not sure how much you really make up the investment on the back end. There’s so much to be said for having the money while you’re young. The three years someone spent in ortho residency was 3 years I was making over $400k as an associate general dentist and investing almost all of it. The orthodontist isn’t catching up to that. The investment potential is sooo much lower when you’re in your 60s compared to your 20s.
 
I knew ortho was going downhill, but man it’s more abysmal than I even thought. Maybe DA will become the new princess lifestyle specialty
DA is absolutely the princess lifestyle specialty. Plus, you make about 2x as much as ortho after residency.
 
I wonder how many of these negativity posts about ortho are from people who couldn’t get into ortho or unhappy with their own situation. Let’s all be clear, ortho is the best part of dentistry, hands down no questions asked. Obviously student loans are an issue and over saturation, but the same argument applies to dentistry. If you are able to get into a low cost or paid ortho residency it is a no brainer. Ortho you change lives and you probably lengthen your career by atleast 5-10 years if you want. I see it’s one big pile on crap party for ortho, but the truth is it is still the best part of dentistry. No doubt about it.

As a side note, if you have negative comments from orthodontists then ask yourself why not just go back to GP? You can, you have the degree. No one in their right mind would do that. Once you do ortho and you see how much better the work is you don’t go back. Have you ever see an orthodontist drop ortho and start doing fillings, root canals, or extractions again? There is a running joke in ortho, what do you call a pediatric dentist that went back for ortho residency? An orthodontist

Just kind if had it with the constant dumping on the specialty
 
As a side note, if you have negative comments from orthodontists then ask yourself why not just go back to GP? You can, you have the degree. No one in their right mind would do that. Once you do ortho and you see how much better the work is you don’t go back. Have you ever see an orthodontist drop ortho and start doing fillings, root canals, or extractions again? There is a running joke in ortho, what do you call a pediatric dentist that went back for ortho residency? An orthodontist

Just kind if had it with the constant dumping on the specialty
I don't think you get what people mean when they say a specialty is a dying field. No one is saying orthodontists lack passion, or that people become orthodontists and then run back to general dentistry. What people mean is that the financial and practice landscape is objectively worse than it was 20 to 30 years ago. A well-run general practice can outperform an average orthodontic practice on a pure income standpoint. Especially if you count the 2-3 years of lost income. From a financial perspective, for most people, it makes more sense not become an orthodontist.

And yes, there absolutely are orthodontists who get the degree and realize it is not for them. It is uncommon, but it happens just like in every other specialty (maybe not OMFS). I know two who went back for peds and perio.
 
I don't think you get what people mean when they say a specialty is a dying field. No one is saying orthodontists lack passion, or that people become orthodontists and then run back to general dentistry. What people mean is that the financial and practice landscape is objectively worse than it was 20 to 30 years ago. A well-run general practice can outperform an average orthodontic practice on a pure income standpoint. Especially if you count the 2-3 years of lost income. From a financial perspective, for most people, it makes more sense not become an orthodontist.

And yes, there absolutely are orthodontists who get the degree and realize it is not for them. It is uncommon, but it happens just like in every other specialty (maybe not OMFS). I know two who went back for peds and perio.

How long have you been practicing? I’ve been out about 15 years. Ortho is the champagne of healthcare. Your same arguments can apply to general. Also, everybody online knows somebody. In real world practice there is absolutely NO ONE who goes through ortho residency, practices ortho, then says they would rather practice GP despite financials. I am telling you they are more likely to retire or walk away from dentistry. Also, sorry to anyone complaining about ortho, but it is an amazing field. The grass is always greener- practice GP for a couple months. You will be running back to ortho.

Edit. I just realized you are the OP. Take the residency spot. This is a no brainer unless it is one the crappier ortho residency programs.
 
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How long have you been practicing? I’ve been out about 15 years. Ortho is the champagne of healthcare. Your same arguments can apply to general. Also, everybody online knows somebody. In real world practice there is absolutely NO ONE who goes through ortho residency, practices ortho, then says they would rather practice GP despite financials. I am telling you they are more likely to retire or walk away from dentistry. Also, sorry to anyone complaining about ortho, but it is an amazing field. The grass is always greener- practice GP for a couple months. You will be running back to ortho.
Did you end up going to ortho residency? I'm sorry to tell you, but once you become an orthodontist it's not sunshine and rainbows. Its not going to solve your problems. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think people deserve to know what it's like out there for orthodontists. I certainly wish someone would have told me the state of the field. See, we all make decisions based on our knowledge that we have at the time. If I would have then what I know now, theres no way I would have become an orthodontist. I would have been an oral surgeon, no doubt.

I've actually seriously considered going back to do a pediatric residency. That way, I could have my own ortho/pedo practice and be my own source of referrals - but not have to worry about the terrible ortho market.
 
Did you end up going to ortho residency? I'm sorry to tell you, but once you become an orthodontist it's not sunshine and rainbows. Its not going to solve your problems. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think people deserve to know what it's like out there for orthodontists. I certainly wish someone would have told me the state of the field. See, we all make decisions based on our knowledge that we have at the time. If I would have then what I know now, theres no way I would have become an orthodontist. I would have been an oral surgeon, no doubt.

I've actually seriously considered going back to do a pediatric residency. That way, I could have my own ortho/pedo practice and be my own source of referrals - but not have to worry about the terrible ortho market.
You bet I did, one of the best decisions I ever made. Did you practice GP before ortho. I did - it sucks. I always tell my wife if I had to go back to GP I would just retire. Don’t do pedo- quick way to burn out fast. If you want to scratch that itch practice general for 2 months. You’ll be begging to bracket some cases up haha!
 
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