Orthopedic Surgery vs Interventional Pain

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bk03

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Have kind of decided on both of these fields. The Ortho surgeries excite me a lot but the residency during residency and a little bit after do not excite me too much. I’m not too sure about how I would feel doing Pain if I’m interested in being surgical. Any advice would be well appreciated.

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also, i find most orthopods are stuck in the early 2000s. they all bill level 3's for everything, and think that they will make their $$$ through surgeries. but, there are all of those post-op visits that fall under the 90 day global.

ortho is a better specialty in general, but it feels like most orthopedists dont maximize their potential. ALSO, there is almost always call.
 
Ortho probably has better future proofing. Definitely better respect.. otoh more stress probably more call often times.. many places make you take trauma call.
Maybe more control over lifestyle in pain. Unfortunately due to the Pieces of crap that ran pill mills there will be a stigma with pain management for some time to come that will not easily wash off.
 
Yall have any experience in ortho groups?

What makes you think it is safer in the long run?
 
Yall have any experience in ortho groups?

What makes you think it is safer in the long run?
its not that musch safer they are all selling to private equity... in our area(MA) a smaller hospital(HCA) fired the entire department because inpatient ortho is now a money loser... You can win if you're part of a group with a surgical center, but the same is true for pain... they work a whole lot more that pain... but they all have $2mil home, a home in the mountains, a beach house etc so guess its worth it
 
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its not that musch safer they are all selling to private equity... in our area(MA) a smaller hospital(HCA) fired the entire department because inpatient ortho is now a money loser... You can win if you're part of a group with a surgical center, but the same is true for pain... they work a whole lot more that pain... but they all have $2mil home, a home in the mountains, a beach house etc so guess its worth it
It’s not so had to have close to a 2 mill home valuation now a days due to the over inflated values and no inventory
 
Yea, there are so many here that I lose track of them. I don’t think they can all be crushing it in outpatient. Probably very call dependent for years and years early on.
 
When jobs post base MGMA salary are they talking about means or does MGMA post a separate benchmark they are referencing?
 
Yea, there are so many here that I lose track of them. I don’t think they can all be crushing it in outpatient. Probably very call dependent for years and years early on.
The reality is that a sizeable percentage are not very good at what they do, and they get dragged along by their partners who are very good at what they do. If you're a below avg to avg orthopedic surgeon, get into an established group with multiple ASCs and there will be a central core of dudes who torch everyone in productivity, and those guys will drive the ASC profits up and you'll get a piece of that too.

There are a lot of ortho guys that make less than pain doctors.

Call is heavy for ortho, but most of the time you get call pay which can be a substantial increase in pay. My partners make between $1-10k per month for call. It sucks though...We're all trying to have spouses and families and live a meaningful life trying to balance responsibility and find some fun here and there right? Call is just emotional death and harassment. It also means you have a potential administrative burden added to your plate if there are issues with scheduling and coverage and things like that. Complete PITA. No thanks.
 
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Have kind of decided on both of these fields. The Ortho surgeries excite me a lot but the residency during residency and a little bit after do not excite me too much. I’m not too sure about how I would feel doing Pain if I’m interested in being surgical. Any advice would be well appreciated.

I am in a large orthopedic group and let’s just say that my surgical colleagues are only half joking when they say they want to go back and do a pain fellowship. They are envious of the no call lifestyle and our earning potential. All of us (pain specialists) are in the top 10-20% consistently for productivity and pay.

Do ortho if you really want to become a surgeon and are wiling to live with the burden of that role, but otherwise I think pain is best.
 
seems like there is a ton of variability in lifestyle/comp between the two fields and comes down to whether OP wants to be a surgeon or not. Lot of orthopedists who would rather make the same amount and work more doing what they do than be in another field and vice versa. It’s easy as a medical student thinking about potential careers to focus on the “lifestyle” and compensation but ignore the opportunity cost associated with being in a field that wont make you feel fulfilled etc.
 
Nowadays you can do pain and still call yourself a surgeon, the best of both worlds #painsurgeon
 
The only thing I am envious about is my sports ortho colleagues who can trim a meniscus tear or recon ACL and look like a hero and have pretty reliable outcome with their happy/active patients.

Everything else ortho can have to themselves and keep their 20-30% premium comp compared to outpatient spine/pain - chronic TKA pain/revisions, septic joints, non-specific shoulder/foot/hand pain, ER call, rounding before clinic, etc. is of no interest and significantly worse quality of life inside/outside of clinic. Plus - if busy with spine/pain can make as much/more than your average to below average ortho and hand/foot ortho colleagues as mentioned above.
 
Put yourself in an environment that energizes you. Otherwise you're going to feel burned out quick. The money and exciting of whatever you're doing gets old after you've done the same thing for 5-10 years. Just go shadow, get some experience, and see which one energizes you. I thought anesthesia would, and it did, but the OR, to me, ended up feeling like a dungeon that really didn't energize me. So I went into pain medicine because I was very energized by the end of the day. So you've got to make this personal choice for you. Don't do it for the money, or prestige. That gets old and goes away. Imagine the specialty without any of those bells and whistles. Make your decision based on that.
 
I think anyone can do procedures but not everyone can do pain for a living.
 
C’mon guys…. are you really saying you would have turned down an orthopedic residency? It’s one of the most competitive residencies for a reason.
 
Yes. Absolutely brutal hours.
When we were young the hours are fine. Remember, the worst thing about every other night call is that you missed half the cases. Remember that Debakey joke?
 
Hospital ortho call especially sucks if you have your own PP/ASC. Imagine working a full day of clinic/surgery, then it's a bad night at the hospital, no sleep, then another full day of clinic/surgery that you care about more because it's your business. My neurosurgery partners had to do this for a while. While I'm 8-4 M-Thurs.
 
I love how you're trying to decide between two of the best paid specialties like it's some super difficult decision.

While compensation and lifestyle obviously matters, I recommend doing what you love, what you enjoy digging deeper and reading about, not what's exciting, and don't worry about the rest.
 
The issue is I don’t love anything. Every subject in medical school and every doctor I have shadowed so far, I’ve been tired and bored by the end of the day.
 
I’m still in medical school and if given the option… pain medicine all the way.

No call, relatively lower chance of getting sued, better work hours, good earning potential, I would argue for me pain medicine is much more interesting as a concept compared to orthopaedics as well.
 
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The issue is I don’t love anything. Every subject in medical school and every doctor I have shadowed so far, I’ve been tired and bored by the end of the day.
See if your med school has a career counselor of sorts you can meet with. Talk it over with friends and mentors. Also, med school rotations are so different in so many ways from actual practice.

Maybe anesthesia was so appealing to me because it was buried in my surgery rotation which made the contrast even more dramatic, but it was the only one where I felt like I was actually doing anything. I was one on one with an attending, who oriented me to the machine and drugs, then basically put a laryngoscope in my hand. I was administering entire anesthetics (obviously still with a lot of help from the attending) a few days in. Every other rotation I’d gather data from the patient, which would then be filtered through the junior resident, to the senior resident, sometimes to the fellow, then finally from the attending, who would then make a decision that we would all implement. Surgery was basically waking up way too early, then if I was lucky and got to observe a surgery, maybe holding a retractor and getting pimped on anatomy for several hours.

I loved the hands on problem solving immediately gratification of anesthesia. What appeals to you the most? The intellectual challenge of making a difficult diagnosis? The idea of cutting someone open and fixing them?

Even choosing to pursue pain or ortho won’t lock you in. You can have a nice steady practice with minimal call and great income if you go into sports medicine. If you’re a thrill seeker cowboy type and don’t mind call, maybe ortho trauma. If you do anesthesia you can always do OR anesthesia, or even ICU. If you go PM&R you could do EMGs, sports, inpatient rehab, or some combination. If you have insufficient hatred for humanity, you could always do ER, which will quickly remedy that deficit, then pain fellowship.
 
The issue is I don’t love anything. Every subject in medical school and every doctor I have shadowed so far, I’ve been tired and bored by the end of the day.


Sorry to say, but maybe you should pursue a career outside of medicine?

Better to make that decision now, compared to after 5 years of residency when you are even more locked into a medical career.
 
The issue is I don’t love anything. Every subject in medical school and every doctor I have shadowed so far, I’ve been tired and bored by the end of the day.
Then I certainly don’t think a surgical specialty is for you. If you are passionate about surgery and what gets you out of bed in the morning is operating, then I would say do ortho regardless of the increased call and maybe marginally better compensation.

If you see medicine as just a job and you care more about lifestyle and compensation, then there are a number of specialties that could work out for you. You have to start figuring this out soon.
 
I had planned to do ortho early on in med school. Now im an anesthesia resident planning to do pain. I don't have any regrets so far. Still think ortho is cool, but I also think taking call and working nights and weekends sucks. But yeah OP if you're tired and bored with everything I prob wouldn't become a surgeon or else you'll be real tired and I would re-evaluate the decision to go into medicine.
 
An ambivalent disinterested personality type will do better in pain, because your patients will be tied to you if you’re prescribing their pain pills. Zero patients will sign up to have surgery with an orthopedic surgeon who comes off as bored.
 
An ambivalent disinterested personality type will do better in pain, because your patients will be tied to you if you’re prescribing their pain pills. Zero patients will sign up to have surgery with an orthopedic surgeon who comes off as bored.

I love ambivalent, disinterested pain docs. Makes for a great contrast when one of their patients meets me.
 
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