Osteopathic (D.O.) Radiology Residency Programs

[radsDO]

I recently matched to an osteopathic residency program in diagnostic radiology. While searching for information on these programs during the past few years, I have never been able to find much, even on SDN. Now that I have been through the whole process and successfully matched I would like to pass on all of the information that I have gathered this past year. Hopefully, this will be helpful to all of you who are interested in osteopathic radiology residency. Also, I hope that other students in my position will chime in with additional information on these programs especially if there is any info that contrasts with anything that I say. The more info we can pass on to interested students the better off they will be.
Good Luck to you all!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[radsDO]

• Don’t be deceived by the AOA opportunities website. Not all of the programs listed on the website may be open in the coming year and the programs don’t always take the same number that they advertise on the website. Each year there maybe any where from 20-30 spots at these programs.
• Don’t submit your USMLE scores to osteopathic programs. Many programs asked me if I was going to go through the D.O. match and seemed to doubt my sincerity d/t a good USMLE score. I have also heard of great applicants with very high USMLE scores not getting many D.O. interviews, which is also probably d/t their scores and not rotating at sites.
• Rotate at as many residency programs as you possibly can. I would recommend setting these up in the early months of the year that you want to apply for, therefore after new years in your 3rd year. Also, some sites will allow you to rotate after they have already selected all the applicants that they are interviewing, therefore your rotation is wasted. Always ask each program when they determine who they will interview and if your rotation will be too late for consideration.
• The different programs do not communicate very well. Many of them only interview on one day and believe or not sometimes multiple programs will select the same date in which to interview. If this happens let the programs both know and they might be willing to change the date or to interview you separately but beware that you may also get the response of “the applicants must decide which interview is more important to them and go to that one.” I know that sucks but it does happen.
• Like many D.O. residency programs, in radiology some program directors will call the applicants that they like the best and inform them of their rank. Technically, they are only allowed to tell you that you are “very likely” “likely” or “unlikely” to match, however, take this with a grain of salt b/c you never know how many other applicants the PD is calling and telling that they are also “very likely” to match. The programs will not likely call and tell you that you are unlikely to match so realistically they only call their top candidates and tell them that they are “very likely”. Of course some programs may break the rules a little and may tell you where you rank on their list or that you have a guaranteed spot at their program, but this is against the rules.
• On audition rotations, the competition is not cutthroat, in fact most of the other candidates are very nice and laid back. However, make sure that you get your time in to work with the attendings and the PD, after all those are the people who make the decisions. Ortho often encourages the candidates to compete for the spot but it is a much different environment in radiology. The best times to rotate at programs is during the 4th year of school from July until October. Many programs determine whom they want to interview by early October. It is also a good idea to do 2 week rotation blocks b/c that will allow you to go to more sites.
• Don’t be a gunner! Radiology is a laid back field and the residents see gunner personalities as obnoxious and feel that they may be difficult to work with. Therefore, when on an audition rotation don’t try to come in on the weekends or for night call, unless asked to do so or if the resident/attending you are working with truly doesn’t mind it. This is not surgery/ortho and your extra effort will not help you out much.
• Step 1 scores are more important than Step 2 scores, however, most students do worse on Step 2 and so you need to make sure that your score does not go down much. It is also ideal to take your Step 2 early so that you can start on your audition rotations early and continue through the fall. Unfortunately, COMLEX scores are very important for matching radiology and so the important information is:
  • COMLEX scores below 500 (average) = probably unlikely to match anywhere.
  • 500-550 not very competitive
  • >550 is competitive
  • >600 very likely to match especially if you rotate at the programs that you want to go to.
  • Note that this does not take into account the rest of your application but is a rough guide for the match. These numbers may vary between the different programs.
• Please add any other points of advice that you might have for future students.

 

[radsDO]

• This past year 2009-2010, there were 12 programs that were accepting residents and 7 of these programs were in Michigan scattered around Detroit. These MI programs have a few things in common. First off, they are all affiliated with Michigan State University so when you graduate from these programs your residency diploma will say MSU in some form. Also, every Tuesday all of the programs travel to East Lansing, MI to go to a full day of didactics at the main MSU campus. These didactic lectures are shared with the allopathic MSU residents are very good. They bring in lecturers from around the country and many of them are experts in their field and also lecture at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP). These programs are also all clustered very close together and are not at all scattered around the state. All are in suburbs of Detroit, which in my opinion is a very rundown and depressing city. It is important to note that some of the programs are in nicer areas and others are in bad areas but the residents all seem to live in nice areas like Royal Oaks.
• I have many personal reasons for not liking the Detroit area, which are probably not shared by everyone, but which I would like to mention. After living in the Detroit area for a couple of months rotating at different hospitals, I was ready to leave and I never wanted to come back. Detroit is depressing/poor/dangerous and the suburbs aren’t much better. When I was there it was cold everyday and it was only autumn. What others may not tell you is that due to the proximity of Detroit to the great lakes, it is always cloudy and with grey skies and little sunshine. This alone can be depressing and it wasn’t even winter when I was there. Some of the hospitals are in areas where Kid Rock and Eminem are from and are even by Eight Mile Road (I noticed this my 1st night there and almost wanted to turn back around and go home). Lastly, Detroit is the only major city in the country whose population is actually decreasing. There are lots of abandoned buildings and stores that are out of business. Therefore, it is a good place to buy a cheap house but a bad place to try to sell it. Again, this is just my personal opinion and I am sure there are many of you out there who love Detroit.
• One important piece of information if you are interested in the MI programs is that the students from Michigan State University will overrun these programs. The past few years there have been a disproportionate number of MSU students to match into D.O. radiology residencies. The main reason is that they spend time rotating at all 7 programs and they start early. By the time I got up to MI to rotate at a couple of programs, I met MSU students who had already been to almost every program. Many of these students started in May or June and then whenever the have a day off from one program they will drive across town to visit or revisit another program. Because of this advantage that they have by living in the area, many of the MI programs expect you to rotate at their site if you want to get an interview and some of them even require it! These students also have the advantage of having their core site in MI and spending time at that program throughout their 3rd year and also can cite endless reasons during an interview why they would want to live in this area (for example all of their friends and family live nearby, they have experience living in the area and love it, or even they have kids and don’t want to move them away). Now that you know the competition you can adequately arrange your schedule for the MI programs. Just because MSU students get a disproportionate # of spots for one school, does not mean that there aren’t several remaining spots left at these programs (several being a relative term).
• I will now go over each MI program to give an overview.

 

[radsDO]

• Botsford Hospital Farmington Hills, MI
  • Botsford is a well known established osteopathic hospital who has trained many residents in different fields since the 1960’s. This is the oldest active D.O. radiology residency. Some of the residents/attendings are arrogant about the program.
  • Residents—3 per year
  • Hospital Size—Medium/Large
  • Volume—High volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from
  • Didactics—great didactics. In addition to MSU didactic day, they also have daily noon lectures given by faculty members and upper level residents. The 1st years also have daily morning ER lectures to prepare them for call. There are also many other lectures including case conferences, tumor board, trauma conference, etc. They had the best didactics of any program I saw and the program director is always present. You will be put on the spot constantly during your time here to read cases in front of the other residents.
  • Attendings—the attendings are solid with many fellowshipped trained in the area they teach. The program director Dr. Saenz and the old program director Dr. Lyddon are highly committed to making this a top notch program. They are both very nice and easy to work with. Dr. Swartz is also a member of the interview team and he is very intense and likes to make you sweat and is not fun to work with. From him you can expect interview questions like “if you were a kitchen utensil, what would you be and why” or “tell me everything that you don’t like about this program and why”
  • Hospital—nice hospital with good equipment and nice reading stations.
  • Resident Morale—seemed pretty good. They work hard but did not seem overly stressed. Most of residents are pretty friendly but I don’t think that they do much together outside of the hospital.
  • Area around the hospital—decent/bad. I would not live near the hospital. There are nice areas nearby.
  • Rotating—important for getting an interview but can still match without rotating. There are lots of students that rotate through Botsford, so if you are a midlevel candidate or below I would not recommend it. About 70% of the people that they interview rotated at Botsford and it helps to rotate early (I knew people who came late and did not get interviewed even though they were there for a month!) Not all students that rotate here get interviewed.

 

[radsDO]

• Henry Ford Macomb
  • Time is split mainly between 2 hospitals: Henry Ford Macomb and Wyandotte. Residents also spend time rotating at Henry Ford Main (900+ bed hospital in downtown Detroit and at MSU in East Lansing).
  • Residents—3 per year
  • Hospital Size—Depends on which hospital but have hospitals ranging form medium to x-large
  • Volume—High volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from but some sites are better than others.
  • Didactics—good didactics. In addition to MSU didactic day, they also have daily noon lectures given by faculty members and upper level residents. Many days the teleconference into the noon conference at Henry Ford Main radiology residency (M.D. residency)
  • Attendings—the attendings are solid, only a few work closely with the students and residents. The program director Dr. Paezano is a very nice guy and easy to get along with. If you rotate here you will sit with him a day or two and he will ask you lots of questions that are usually pretty easy. There is also an attending that works exclusively at Wyandotte, who is usually present at the interviews. This year the program director was not at the interview, which was very odd.
  • Hospital—Henry Ford Macomb is not a nice hospital, it is old and run down and is in a crappy area. Wyandotte is not much better. Residents don’t live near this hospital. The reading rooms for residents are very cramped and not nice. Also, the residents get very little for a food stipend ($6/day) and visiting students get none.
  • Resident Morale—The residents morale was lukewarm. I don’t think there is any camaraderie here and I doubt the residents ever see each other outside of the hospital.
  • Rotating—you need to rotate here and get to know the program director to interview and match at this program. There are lots of students rotating through this program and you need to remind the program director by call or email that you rotated there before interview invitations are sent out.

 

[radsDO]

• Mount Clemens Hospital, Mount Clemens, MI
  • This is a new program only 5 years old, and only accepts a max of 1 resident/year. Sometimes they offer an unfunded spot, which is easier to match to but difficult to afford.
  • Residents—1 per year
  • Hospital Size—medium/large
  • Volume—Very high volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from. The residents here read as many studies each year as at any other program.
  • Didactics—poor didactics outside of MSU. In addition to MSU didactic day, they also have daily noon lectures given by residents.
  • Attendings—nice attendings but not very involved with the program. The program director Dr. Shapiro is a very nice guy and is easy to work with. He wants applicants to specifically ask for an interview and to express their interest either by email or phone. You do not have to rotate here to interview or match. He does not really ask many questions during the interview and it is really laid back.
  • Hospital—nice newer hospital with good equipment and nice reading stations. The residents stressed that they get all the free food they want.
  • Resident Morale—seemed ok. They work hard but did not seem overly stressed. The residents seem very different from each other and lack any real camaraderie.
  • Rotating—not necessary to interview or match here.

 

[radsDO]

• Garden City
  • Residents—2 per year
  • Hospital Size—medium
  • Volume—medium volume program
  • Didactics—ok didactics. In addition to MSU didactic day, they also have lectures given by faculty members and upper level residents.
  • Attendings—the attendings are solid but not very helpful for the students and residents. The Program Director is very intimidating and creates a very stressful environment. He likes to see you sweat and also creates this type of hostile environment during the interview. He is also in charge of osteopathic radiology board testing, which might be of some benefit for the residents.
  • At the interview—he will put you on the spot and ask you to explain the physiology behind respiration or surfactant, or CSF. He wants to explain everything you know about whatever topic he brings up and he wants you to go into great detail such as “where is it made and by what type of cells” what is the anatomic course of CSF”. Along with questions from the basic sciences, he will also ask you riddles and math questions and expect to explain your thought process as you are thinking. A popular riddle in recent years has been: “if you had 9 ball bearings and 8 weighed the exact same but one weighed slightly less AND if you had scale that you could only use twice how would you determine which ball bearing weighed the least?”
    • If you get this question scratch your chin for exactly 3 seconds and say, “well, logically I would first think to weigh 4 on each side of the scale and leave one out and if they weighed the same I would have my answer and if not then I would weigh the split the side that had weighed less and weigh those bearings, however, this approach would not suffice b/c it would require more than 2 weighing attempts…(Scratch chin for only 2 seconds this time). Therefore, the only real solution would be to weigh 3 bearings on each side of the scale and if they weigh the same then you know that the light bearing one of the 3 that was not weighed and you can then weigh one of those bearings on each side of the scale and if they weigh the same then your left our bearing is the answer and if they weigh differently, then the one that is lighter is obviously your light bearing. Of course, this method would also work if the 2 sets of 3 did not initially weigh the same b/c then your answer would be in the group of 3 that weighed less and the lighter bearing could be determined with only one more weighing.”
    • Then at the end of the interview when he asks if you have any questions for him, you should ask him a riddle and see how he responds. A good one is there are 5 birds in the thorax, what are they (thoracic duck, azy-Goose vein, esopha-Goose, etc.)
  • Resident Morale—ok but overly stressed. Most of residents are pretty friendly but I don’t think that they do much together outside of the hospital.
  • Rotating—do not need to rotate here to get an interview. They like very high board scores (>95th percentile on COMLEX). If you have these type of board scores then you don’t need to rotate here to get an interview and if you don’t have these scores then it probably won’t help you to rotate here.

 

[radsDO]

• MSUCOM/Mount Siani Huron Valley
  • Residents—2 per year
  • Hospital Size—small
  • Volume—lower volume program with few interesting cases to learn from
  • Didactics—good didactics. In addition to MSU didactic day, they also have daily noon lectures given by attendings and upper level residents. They also attend didactics at the Wayne State allopathic program. This program has very solid didactics but it may cut into their case reading time.
  • Attendings—nice attendings who are helpful and easy to work with.
  • Interview—easy laid back interview no difficult questions.
  • Hospital—nice hospital with good equipment and nice reading stations. The hospital is in a very nice area of MI and one that would be ok to live in.
  • Resident Morale—seemed pretty good.
  • Rotating—Do not need to rotate here to get an interview but it probably helps with interview/match

 

[radsDO]

Oakwood Southshore

• • I did not rotate here or interview so there is limited info I can provide, maybe someone else can fill in the blanks here.
  • Residents—1-2 per year
  • Hospital Size—small
  • Didactics—MSU didactics.
  • Rotating—Do not need to rotate here to get an interview

 

[radsDO]

• Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital (POH)
  • Residents—2 per year
  • Hospital Size—medium
  • Didactics—MSU didactics.
  • Hospital—nice hospital, did not have a PACS system for radiology until this past year. Hospital is in a rundown area that would not be good to live in.
  • Rotating—last year and probably in the future you had to rotate here in order to get an interview.

 

[radsDO]

• Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital (POH)
  • Residents—2 per year
  • Hospital Size—medium
  • Didactics—MSU didactics.
  • Hospital—nice hospital, did not have a PACS system for radiology until this past year. Hospital is in a rundown area that would not be good to live in.
  • Rotating—last year and probably in the future you had to rotate here in order to get an interview.

 

[radsDO]

• Doctors Hospital Columbus, OHIO
  • Doctors is a well known established osteopathic hospital, which has trained many residents in different fields.
  • Residents—2 per year
  • Hospital Size—small (I thought it would be much larger)
  • Volume—Low volume program with few interesting cases to learn from
  • Didactics—poor didactics. There are no MSU lectures. Most didactics were just with 2-3 residents and either consisted of video lectures, Brant and Helms review, or case conference. There is no attending interaction with the didactic sessions and no lectures or presentations given. Sometimes during the year the residents go to Ohio State University for noon conference but they are not involved in the cases or lectures. During the fall the residents did not go to OSU d/t road construction b/c it took too much time out of the day; this may change in the future.
  • Attendings—As a student you don’t get much time at all with the attendings. The program director is very odd. He never smiles or talks much with students and only answers questions in a “yes” or “no” format. It is very difficult to communicate at all with him as a student let alone impress him. Many applicants are turned off from the program b/c of the program director, however, the residents at Doctors seem to like him pretty well. The other attendings do not involve themselves with students or resident didactic sessions.
  • Hospital—nice hospital with good equipment and cramped reading stations. The hospital is having construction and the radiology department might improve in the future.
  • Resident Morale—good. They did not seem overly stressed. Most of residents are pretty friendly. The younger residents are very friendly and like to do things as a group. The workload is decreased compared to some of the other programs.
  • Area around the hospital—decent/bad. I would not live near the hospital. There are many very nice areas nearby.
  • Rotating—important for getting an interview but can still match without rotating. Most applicants that rotate here get interviews. There were several applicants at the interview who did not rotate here.

 

[radsDO]

Chicago Program

• • The previous chief resident was Dr. John Marshall, you might know him as the Hydroxycut spokesman (he was the Dr. that advertised for Hydroxycut), which might say something about the program!
  • Residents—1-3 per year
  • Hospital Size—Large
  • Volume—High volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from
  • Didactics—poor/average didactics. There are no MSU lectures. Resident run didactics with little or no attending involvement.
  • Attendings—The PD is Dr. Spoo, who is a nice lady. She will call you if you are in contention to be interviewed, i.e. if you don’t get called then you can effectively cross this one off of your list. She will call you and ask some basic questions and then some pressing questions like, “how determined are you to go through the osteopathic match?” i.e. are you going to jump to the allopathic match, “if I offered you a contract to our program right now, would you sign it”, “why did you take the USMLE”, “Why didn’t you rotate at our program if you say you are interested in coming here”. If she likes your answers then you will get an interview in Chicago, if not don’t sweat it b/c you would not have gotten a spot anyways.
  • Hospital—2 large old hospitals in Chicago with good equipment.
  • Resident Morale—Residents work very hard and do not get much teaching.
  • Rotating—not necessary to interview but I would recommend rotating here if you are interested in going here, especially if you would like to go to a program outside of Michigan.

 

[radsDO]

OSU Program Tulsa, OK

• • This hospital has had some major recent problems. Last year the hospital essentially went bankrupt and all of the residency programs almost shutdown and residents were looking for other sites to complete their residency training. The OSU, the osteopathic medical school along with the city purchased the hospital to keep the doors open and now it is supposed to be stable.
  • Residents—2-3 per year
  • Hospital Size—large city hospital
  • Volume—High volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from. The private group that manages the residency program has a very large teleradiology practice and so gets cases from all over the country, however, I don’t think that the residents read these cases on a regular basis.
  • Didactics—poor/ave didactics. There are no MSU lectures. Morning didactics are video lectures as are most noon didactics. There are also physics lectures and a Brant and Helms review each week. There is limited attending support of the didactic sessions.
  • Attendings—most of the attendings are graduates of the residency program there. Students do not interact much with the attendings but their doors are not closed to students either. The program director is an IR guy so expect to spend at least a week in the IR suite if you rotate at this site. The attendings are nice and easy to work with.
  • Hospital—nice hospital with decent equipment. The hospital, as well as, the equipment is somewhat outdated but still works fine. The fluoroscopy machines are circa 1960 and are not very useful. The residents all read in one large reading room with one attending who checks them all out.
  • Resident Morale—good. They work hard but did not seem overly stressed. Most of residents are friendly and down to earth and they get together outside of the hospital. This program has a southern hospitality feel so if you are from the area you might appreciate this.
  • Area around the hospital—downtown area. Not an area to live but is still a safe area and not too far from good housing opportunities.
  • Rotating—they may not say this directly but if you want to match here you need to do a rotation. They interview people each year that do not rotate here but few if any of these individuals match here. Not many students rotate here, but it is still somewhat difficult to get a spot.
  • Interview—you may have one to two interviews with multiple interviews in each room. They pretty much read off a set of questions that they ask all applicants and then may ask you some questions about your interest or CV.

 

[radsDO]

St. Barnabas Bronx, NY

• • This program is right in the heart of the Bronx, so if you like big city living this is a great place to check out.
  • Residents—2-3 per year
  • Hospital Size—Large
  • Volume—Very High volume program with lots of interesting cases to learn from
  • Didactics—great didactics. There are two didactic sessions per day. For the noon didactic session, they bring in radiologists to lecture. They pay lecturers from other big name radiology programs in the area (like Columbia, NYU) to come and lecture and the lectures are really superb. You will be put on the spot constantly during your time here to read cases in front of the other residents.
  • Attendings—the attendings are solid with many fellowshipped trained in the area they teach. The program director is an MD and I think that his son is a graduate of the program. Everyone seems pretty pleasant.
  • Hospital—old rundown hospital with decent equipment and nice reading stations. The residents complained that some of the equipment is really old and outdated and that the hospital has had some financial problems recently (like most hospitals).
  • Resident Morale—seemed decent. They said that they were pretty laid back and that the workload was pretty “chill” and they seem to like it ok there. I think that the residents are so spread out around the area that they really don’t do anything together. There did not seem to be any strong camaraderie between the residents.
  • Area around the hospital—bad. I would not live near the hospital. No matter where you live in this area it is going to be very expensive for what you get, this may be a difficult transition for any Midwestern students.
  • Rotating—Not important for an interview. Rotating here might help you get an interview and match but I am not sure.
  • Interview—expect to get many questions about why you want to go to this program. If you are not from the northeast, they will ask you why you want to come there as opposed to other programs and they want you to have some ties to the area or aspirations to stay when you finish. Also have reasons why you like NY and the northeast or else you will look very out of place.

 

[radsDO]

LECOM/Brookhaven Memorial Hospital - Diagnostic Radiology Residency

• WTF, I don’t know where this program came from. It was not listed when I submitted my ERAS but then I recently found it on the Opportunities website. This program was also listed as having unfilled spots on match day. This apparently is a brand new program without any upper level residents, so I would be very cautious about the quality of education one might receive here. It is something to think about and to look into though.

UNTHSC/TCOM Fort Worth, TX

• This program did not interview or accept any new residents this past year. Nobody seems to know why they closed their doors to applications this past year but it is rumored that there might be some severe problems with the program and that its long term stability may be in question. The hospital might be changing the residency program over to allopathic residency spots but again none of this has been confirmed.

WesternU/COMP/Garfield Medical Center

• The word on the street is that this program is never going to get off the ground. It has been on the AOA opportunities website for a few years now but is yet to take any residents. Again, this program is just starting so I would be weary about the quality of education one might receive. I hope that this hospital can get into gear and start this program because there is currently no opportunities west of Fort Worth, TX.

 

[radsDO]

I hope this info is helpful and feel free to add to it. The topic of this thread is D.O. Diagnostic Radiology Residency Programs. Please do not let this thread degenerate into some stupid off topic argument.

 

[digitlnoize]

Great Post. I agree that this info is sorely lacking on SDN and Aunt Minnie. The difficulty of searching for "DO" only compounds matters and, for some reason, people don't use "osteopathic" in their post titles. Thank you.

 

[PistolPete]

Holy crap this post is freaking awesome. Thank you for such a comprehensive review!!!

 

[PistolPete]

For the 2010 AOA match results that came out, I counted only 34 diagnostic radiology AOA spots in the entire nation. Are there really only that many? It seems like the ACGME match would be much easier to match in with 1000 spots or so, even while competing against other MD and IMG students. Any thoughts?

 

[digitlnoize]

For the 2010 AOA match results that came out, I counted only 34 diagnostic radiology AOA spots in the entire nation. Are there really only that many? It seems like the ACGME match would be much easier to match in with 1000 spots or so, even while competing against other MD and IMG students. Any thoughts?

I've never really seen numbers on how many people apply for those spots. So, it's hard to tell just how competitive they really are.

There are definitely very few spots. It varies slightly from year to year, but there's not a lot. Rads just isn't that popular for the DO's, historically.

 

[jennsnate]

Outstanding posts! I too have been frustrated by the lack of info out there, been bugging the few grads that matched from my school for tips. Thanks for all the details.

 

[jafri91]

Great post! Thanks for all the info, mods please make this a sticky! Btw which program did you match into if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Sharpie1]

would you mind commenting on how you feel the DO residencies fare in terms of job attainment after their residencies, as opposed to their MD counterparts? maybe you have no idea, but perhaps you got a sense of it as you progressed through your interviews...

 

[JohnThomasSign]

I also matched to an osteopathic diagnostic radiology spot this year and had every intention to create a post such as this only to log on and find this great post (you beat me to it). I will reflect and see if I can add anything to this thread but I agree with about 98% of what I read and you provide a pretty balanced review of programs. I had interviews at every DO rad program besides one and interviewed at a number of mid-tier allopathic programs. In the end, I only ranked one osteopathic program (my #1 overall) and fortunately matched there. To address the question concerning job attainment - after rotating at 6 DO programs, the majority of senior residents seemed to be doing fellowships and of the few who were not most of them had already signed a contract/were in contract talks (mostly community hospitals). I did not see any upper level residents struggling to find a job OR a fellowship (I can only speak for the programs I rotated at and the residents I got to know). I also think it is noteworthy to mention the residents who were doing fellowships seemed to have no trouble landing big name fellowships in their area of interest (MSK, neuro, anything). It does not seem like the fellowship market is that competitive right now but that may change.

 

[radsDO]

To answser the question about jobs/fellowships, I think any grad of an osteopathic radiology program is very competitive. Every program I went to had almost all of their graduates accepted to start fellowship training the next year. I was repeatedly impressed by the fellowships that these residents were obtaining. Many were going into MSK, neuro, womens imaging, MRI, etc. and at very impressive programs like Cleveland Clinic, Duke, Henry Ford, Vanderbilt, etc. The small group of residents not going on to fellowship training seemed to have offers to practice in the area they wanted. So I would have to say the hardest part is getting into a radiology residency position, getting a fellowship spot and job is a little easier.

Thanks JohnThomasSign for your input. Maybe you can add info about some of the programs that might be lacking.

Also, one piece of advice I forgot to leave include earlier is that many of the programs will want you to complete an oral presentation while you are rotating with their site. Some students blow this off and hope that the residents/attendings will forget about it, which they often do. I would recommend putting some hard work into your presentation and impress the people at the program. A good presentation is something that you will be remembered for and really that is the whole point, right!

I also think that this thread would be a good sticky b/c this info is hard to find anywhere else.

 

[docmd2010]

i'm a d.o. student going into the MD match this year. let me give you my honest opinion on the osteopathic radiology programs. i rotated at one of the above programs last year, and let me tell you one of the things that is severely lacking at all of these programs...VOLUME.

let me give you a prime example. when i was on my radiology rotation last year, we had a patient who came in with an aortic dissection. this was the only dissection case that i saw all month, and all the rads residents came running from their stations to look at the dissection as if they had never seen one before.

i rotated at a university hospital. on my chest rotation, i saw 5 dissections in ONE DAY.

also, my mom is a radiology recruiter, and she tells me that AOCR certified residents aren't accepted in many private practices. and it's not b/c of the degree. a DO with MD training is welcomed everywhere. just letting u know of how it is in the real world.

the MD trained radiologist, in my opinion, is better prepared for private practice as he/she has seen much more volume and has been trained by sub-specialists rather than general diagnostic radiologists.

 

[Sharpie1]

thank you for your honest post... i guess it is really something to think about, considering word on the street is that the radiology job market is tightening up...

 

[radsDO]

This is a valid opinion, however, I think the volume depends on the program. Some programs seem to have pretty low volume like POH, Mt. Siani, and Columbus. But many of the other programs do seem to have pretty good volume, most of which would rival many allopathic community hospital programs (remember that DO programs are community hospital programs). Some of the programs like Dayton/Mount Clemens/Henry Ford and maybe Botsford have pretty high volume and although you may not see quite the diversity of cases that you may see at a major academic center you will still read as many cases as your allopathic programs.

Although I can see your point about the AOCR, I am unsure if this would still be applicable for radiologists completing ACR fellowships. Since most all of the residents I met were doing fellowships and many at highly respected centers, I would have to believe that they are still pretty competitive in the job market. Bottom line is that I am not worried about it and I am yet to meet a trainee of an osteopathic rads residency who was struggling to find the fellowship/job of his/her choice. I encourage all applicants to apply to both allo and osteo programs and make your own decision when where to match when the time comes.

 

[docmd2010]

to each's own. but what is wrong is to give incorrect information.

doing an ACR accredited fellowship DOES NOT give you an ACR certification. you are still an osteopathic certified radiologist. sure a fellowship may help. staying within the midwest probably will be ok with AOCR, but moving out to the coasts without doing an ACGME residency would be much more difficult.

 

[Aimong]

Anybody heard any DO matched into MD radiology program?
Thanks.

 

[PistolPete]

Yes, the last couple of years several D.O. students matched allo rads. There are plenty others at different schools that did so as well, you just need to have better stats than your respective M.D. counterparts.

 

[karizma098]

docmd has a point-

i know that osteopathic residency program graduates aren't always 'discriminated against' when it comes time for joining a private practice, but they may have a tougher time outside their comfort zone. in chicago most practices are pretty familiar with olympia fields, and most residents end up doing fellowships locally at allo programs and have no trouble finding a job. i can see this being a bit of a problem in a more competitive market like NYC or cali as there is already a good inflow of allo trained radiologists.

a friend of mine completed his residency at olympia fields in chicago , did neuro at a chicago program and got a fantastic job just outside chicago - he wanted to go to cali, but the offers he was getting werent as promising as some of his allo counterparts. in the end he still got a great job, but it might have been his 2nd or 3rd choice and not 1st choice location.

i'm not saying that DO trained radiologists are any less qualified, but the fact is that some practices will overlook their resume compared to their allo trained counterparts. this stands true in other fields like anesthesia, ER, ENT , etc etc. it's just safer to go the MD match if u have the stats. however, if you don't have as competitive a USMLE score and have a good comlex , absolutely try for the DO match.

i'm a DO student who is likely going to apply into anesthesia, but if i was doing rads, i would most definitely apply in the DO match.

to me, a few private practices blue balling me isn't as important as taking the risk of not matching in the MD match. ( ie, a few students in our 4th year class didnt match with scores in the 230-240 range. ouch )

oh yeah, to the OP, great post.

 

[PistolPete]

Any DO's that matched ACGME rads a few days ago want to give us some hints as to which areas are more receptive to DO's?

Congrats to all MD/DO's that matched rads!

 

[Jacknut]

This is a valid opinion, however, I think the volume depends on the program. Some programs seem to have pretty low volume like POH, Mt. Siani, and Columbus. But many of the other programs do seem to have pretty good volume, most of which would rival many allopathic community hospital programs (remember that DO programs are community hospital programs). Some of the programs like Dayton/Mount Clemens/Henry Ford and maybe Botsford have pretty high volume and although you may not see quite the diversity of cases that you may see at a major academic center you will still read as many cases as your allopathic programs.

Although I can see your point about the AOCR, I am unsure if this would still be applicable for radiologists completing ACR fellowships. Since most all of the residents I met were doing fellowships and many at highly respected centers, I would have to believe that they are still pretty competitive in the job market. Bottom line is that I am not worried about it and I am yet to meet a trainee of an osteopathic rads residency who was struggling to find the fellowship/job of his/her choice. I encourage all applicants to apply to both allo and osteo programs and make your own decision when where to match when the time comes.

Do you know what a good # cases is about average per resident per day?

Thanks

 

[radsDO]

I think there are good opportunities in both the MD and DO matches. Like most applicants, I applied to both matches and I recommend you all to do the same. This way you can interview at both types of programs and later decide which match you would like to go through. Also, many DO students match to MD radiology programs each year, I did not go over this in my post because this post is geared towards providing information about the osteopathic radiology programs. There are several posts on SDN about allopathic radiology programs and DO's applying to them.

Many MD programs are open to DOs but there is some discrimination. As for the number of cases/day I don't really have a numerical answer for that.

Congrats to all those DOs who matched to either osteopathic or allopathic radiology residency programs. Everyone who matched should feel free to post info about their program here to help the future applicants.

 

[Jacknut]

I think there are good opportunities in both the MD and DO matches. Like most applicants, I applied to both matches and I recommend you all to do the same. This way you can interview at both types of programs and later decide which match you would like to go through. Also, many DO students match to MD radiology programs each year, I did not go over this in my post because this post is geared towards providing information about the osteopathic radiology programs. There are several posts on SDN about allopathic radiology programs and DO's applying to them.

Many MD programs are open to DOs but there is some discrimination. As for the number of cases/day I don't really have a numerical answer for that.

Congrats to all those DOs who matched to either osteopathic or allopathic radiology residency programs. Everyone who matched should feel free to post info about their program here to help the future applicants.

Thanks RadsDO..I only rotated at Botsford, POH, and Huron Valley..I remember Bots and POH had about the same number of cases on average, being 30-35 cases per resident..and Huron being in the 20s..I will try to get an answer from a reputable source on what a "good number is and get it back on here.

 

[Donvb]

For the 2010 AOA match results that came out, I counted only 34 diagnostic radiology AOA spots in the entire nation. Are there really only that many? It seems like the ACGME match would be much easier to match in with 1000 spots or so, even while competing against other MD and IMG students. Any thoughts?

I think either way Radiology was seriously competitive this year... If you want a realistic shot at the MD programs take the USMLE... If you don't get a competitive score on USMLE then you have a much better shot at a DO program, you just have to rotate at as many of the DO programs as possible. To give yourself the most chances take the USMLE and COMLEX, and apply to both... You'll have a good idea of your chances with the DO programs before the match, generally if you haven't heard anything then that's a pretty bad sign.

Good luck

 

[PistolPete]

People keep saying that you need to rotate at osteopathic programs in order to be truly considered. My school only allows 3 electives in the same specialty. So what, if I apply to AOA radiology programs I will only really be considered by 3 programs? How do people get around this?

 

[Donvb]

People keep saying that you need to rotate at osteopathic programs in order to be truly considered. My school only allows 3 electives in the same specialty. So what, if I apply to AOA radiology programs I will only really be considered by 3 programs? How do people get around this?

Get a good COMLEX I score and you will get interviews at places without rotating... If you don't get a solid step I score, then you need to use vacation time, days off, or any other opportunities to at least "stop by" the programs and meet the program directors. Drop off your CV, introduce yourself and say your interested.

 

[nvshelat]

RadsDO, excellent post and advice. Some thoughts re that post and some others:

I matched at Barnabas this year, you got mostly everything right about the program, I'll just comment on the "resident morale" portion. The morale is great and the residents have a tremendous sense of comraderie. They stay late to help out with studies, go out together, eat lunch everyday together, laugh and have a great time together, I could go on and on... but suffice it to say that the resident comraderie is the strongest I've ever seen at any program. Theres an R2 who puts together Brant/Helms club from his own time to help out the R1s; they're one big family. I could be wrong, but I don't think the PD's son has gone through the program, I think he's still in high school.

In re to your other comments, I think it can only help to spend a night or two on (short) call or come in for a little bit on the weekend. But you're right not to overdo it, because personality is very important in rads - you want to show your coworkers that you have a life and you might actually be interesting to have around.

In re to docmd, it's a shame that you (and your mom) are misinformed.

I can only comment about Barnabas, but in terms of volume, they were reading, on average, 50 CTs/night on call when I was there. That was a lot more than other programs I saw - about 5x some of the other MD programs I interviewed at, in fact. So volume is not a function of MD vs DO, it's a function of the program.
The other concern you expressed was in re to diversity of pathology; this will always be a problem in radiology. Some places will see a lot of something; but this a function of academic vs community centers, not MD vs DO. You could be at a MD community hospital and not see as many aortic dissections. (Did you really see 5 dissections in 1 day?)
Finally, everyone is doing a fellowship now bc of the new testing/rules, which means it matters more where you do your fellowship rather than whether you're a DO or MD. I imagine any type of concern about whether you did a DO residency or MD residency stems more from community vs academic settings rather than perceived bias. In fact, there are several D.O. program directors in the country. Barnabas grads go on to UCSF, Columbia, Mt Sinai, blah blah blah - the point is, they're not forced to be in the midwest either for fellowship or afterward, they're doing just fine getting jobs on the "coasts."
I guess you also gained the sense that DO attendings are all general radiologists and therefore can't properly train D.O. residents? Not sure about other programs, but at Barnabas it's not the case. Anyway, theres something to be said for the general guy who can read a CXR in a neonate and an MRI.

Let's not scare the poor guys trying to match in the upcoming year, they're neurotic enough as it is Again, great post radsDO!

 

[digitlnoize]

Agreed. Spectacular post. Best post anywhere (here or AM) on the topic.

I'd like to nominate it for a sticky, just so it never gets lost.

 

[RipCity]

I matched into an Osteopathic Radiology program recently and wanted to do an overview of all the programs that I either interviewed at or rotated through…. There really isn’t any information on the D.O. programs out there so I wanted to add to this outstanding post and hopefully it helps students in the future. This is a great post, so I’ll just add my point of view to it. Everyone likes different programs for specific reasons, and if you rotate at them you’ll get good/bad vibes according to your personality. Obviously, take everyone’s opinions on here with a grain of salt! If you have any other questions for me just PM me and I’ll do my best answering. Good luck!

 

[RipCity]

1. Number of applicants and spots: There were 27 spots available this cycle and they all filled, the 30 spots you might see on www. natmatch.com "results section" are because of the 3 spots that were registered by the LECOM NY program. These were never filled through the match that I know of, so... 27 spots total last year! One program director told me he received aorund 130 applications for the cycle, I'm not sure how much this would change program to program though...

2. Rotations I rotated at Botsford, Garden City, Huron Valley, Mt. Clemens, Oakwood Soutshore, and OSU(Tulsa)

Set up AS MANY radiology rotations as you can. I would even start rotating in third year if you know this is what you want to do. I was able to rotate at a program during the third month of my MSIII year and continued to come back and meet with the residents/attendings and was offered a spot in the end. In the D.O. world rotations are MONEY, they take very few residents per class (usually 1-3) and really want to know the personalities of the students they are taking. Also, if your numbers aren’t quite up to par this is a good way for you to get a spot! There were some applicants this last cycle who rotated at the right place at the right time, built strong relationships, and matched with lower COMLEX I scores than the average interview pool.

I did six, month-long, radiology rotations during MSIII/MSIV years. (My medical school does not allow us to split rotations, if you are able to do two week rotations I would suggest doing that and getting as many in as possible…) Not all schools allow you to rotate this many times in the same specialty. If your school limits you I would suggest using your vacation, or trying to split your rotations into two weeks. Another suggestion is to call programs and see if the program directors are working any weekends or nights, and seeing if they mind you stopping by for a couple hours. This is great at certain programs, others the PD’s NEVER work nights and might not be great with students… So just call and ask at the programs that are open to students working with the PD's, doesn’t hurt to show interest. DO NOT be to pushy though! Don’t show up for a night shift and stay the entire night to “show your interest,” radiologists don’t necessarily enjoy having students once they’ve gotten to know you, and if you get a hint at “you can leave whenever you’d like to”…. Just leave and say thank you!!

On rotations: Show up a little bit early every day, stay until someone tells you “you’re free to go.” Stay awake! Study Radiology, at many programs you will get pimped (Botsford, OSU the most out of the places I rotated). “Learning Radiology” the book and website were both very good, Felsons is also another great book for chest x-rays. Stay alert when you are sitting next to an attending/resident, don’t constantly ask questions but be ready to respond when they ask you a question. Don’t ever point and say “what’s that?”… That is the most annoying thing a student can say/do on a radiology rotation.

Lastly, assess yourself! If you have a difficult time being comfortable in new groups, and rotations are a challenge for you, don’t do long rotations with programs! I saw this so frequently with a couple students; they would spend so much time with programs and the residents would see them come in and literally groan… Assess your communication skills, if you aren’t good then don’t force it. Just show your interest and move on, they might start to find you annoying after a while and it will serve you better to not push it.

 

[RipCity]

3. ERAS and a "solid" application:
I would suggest that you apply ASAP, and apply to all the D.O. Radiology programs. If you are serious about radiology there isn’t any reason not to, and you can always cancel interviews if you think you have enough of them to be picky later on. Right now there are 12 “active” radiology programs. Seven programs are surrounding Detroit and part of the “MSU-Consortium”, then you have two programs in Ohio, one in Chicago, one in the Bronx, and one in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There is also a program being started in Patchogue, NY. They are actually taking residents because I know an intern who went there and interviewed for their “PGY-2” class… I’m just not sure how they are going to be doing things next year or how many students they will take.

Start your personal statement early, it’s such a pain in the @$$ and was very difficult for me to finally find something I was happy with. So the earlier you start, the better. After talking to so many different programs/PD’s they all were interested in a different aspect of the applications, so the more parts of your application that are solid the better. One PD told me he really pays attention to grades, another told me he checks COMLEX I before offering any interviews no matter if you rotated or not, etc. So spend time on your PS and ERAS answers, even though most of the PD’s probably won’t pay to much attention, someone might!

I think the most important part of an application seemed to be the COMLEX I. It is what most programs used as a guideline. One PD used the COMLEX I to summarize our interview group the day before the interview, and told us how impressed he was with the average Board scores… This is followed by a close second of how you perform on rotations and how many you are able to do. Your rotations can make up for poor COMLEX I scores, and vice-versa. All the other factors of your application seemed to be used more for comparing applicants once they have a decision to make. I think the rotations and COMLEX I seemed to primarily be used to choose interviews.

 

[RipCity]

4. The "Michigan advantage":

The following is definitely my own opinion, so take it or leave it! As I rotated through the Michigan programs they all seemed to have a bias toward their own programs and fed into the idea that they had a strong advantage over programs that weren’t in Detroit. I think they mainly saw the advantages as having the full day in Lansing of lecturing with attendings, and the fact that their degrees will say “Michigan State University or Affilliated with Michigan State University.”

The funny thing about Lansing for me was that most of the residents really HATED driving there every Tuesday! And to be honest, after going for a couple Tuesday’s, it started to seem like more of a burden than educational benefit. They did have well-known lecturers go there, but why do they have to drive 1-2hours to see them? The programs outside of Detroit watch the same lectures in their own programs, every day…

The 1st year residents get to do Brant and Helms review, and take examinations in Lansing. This did seem very helpful and was a good way to keep everyone on task and also compare the residents in the different programs. But the residents past 1st year mostly brought their textbooks and seemed to be more interested in reading during lectures, which is understandable with the amount of board exams required in radiology residency (three). At the end of my rotations I did think the "Lansing tuesday" was a nice addition to the individual programs, but honestly wasn't the huge benefit the programs made it seem like.

As far as being affiliated with Michigan State University for fellowships… Every program I went to had residents gaining very competitive fellowships, there was no program (in Detroit or out) that seemed to have an obvious advantage in that regard.

Detroit itself wasn’t the most impressive city personally, the surrounding areas aren’t bad though. Farmington Hills(Botsford), and Mt. Clemens were both in decent areas. Pontiac, Oakwood, Garden City, Henry Ford Macomb, and Pontiac weren’t really in areas that you would live close by or anything… Huron Valley is pretty far north of Detroit and it seems pretty rural and is actually pretty beautiful when you drive out there. So if you like that, it’s nice to be outside of the city.

One area where I did not agree with RadsDO is when he said MSU students are filling the Detroit rads programs and have an advantage over the rest. In my experience some of the MSU students overstayed their welcome and would spend TO MUCH time harassing the programs to the point that the residents were annoyed by the end! They do get more time at the programs, obviously, because they are there. But if you are able to visit most of the programs I don’t feel they have any advantage over you, and you do not risk “overexposure” like MSU students do. Also, if you actually look at the residents in the programs there aren’t a huge proportion of MSU students compared to the rest of the schools considering their proximity to the programs…

So… as you can tell I did not see a distinct advantage to going to a Michigan program over the others outside of Detroit. I think you should rate them based on the individual program and not put too much value into “being in the MSU consortium.”

 

[RipCity]

5. The interview

These vary so widely between the different programs, there really was no way to know what to expect unless you heard from past students… I’ll talk a little more about this concerning the specific programs below and what you can expect, but here are some general things.

Practice! Go over common questions and have answers ready
-Why do you want to be a radiologist?
-What is your biggest strength/weakness?

All those cheesy one liners that you got for medical school will come back during these interviews, and it’s best to at least have an idea of what you are going to talk about. Do some soul searching and think of past events that were meaningful in your life, what hobbies you find interesting and why, etc. This way you’ll actually be able to have a comfortable conversation on your interview rather than stumble in silence to think of an answer. If you have a spouse/sig.other/friend have them ask you questions, and answer seriously for some practice… Iserson’s Guide is a good book that has practice interview questions in the back, use these as a guide.

On most interviews it seemed that around at least15 to at most 50ish were getting interviewed. Some do all the interviews in one day(Grandview, OSU, Garden City, Pontiac, Henry Ford), others split them into a couple groups(Botsford, Oakwood), and then some do them randomly throughout the month (Mt. Clemens, St. Barnabas). You will begin to recognize faces near the end of your interviews and get to know all the students. Our group of interview applicants was really a great group of people and it was nice to feel like it wasn’t a HUGE number of people getting interviews!

 

[RipCity]

Botsford: Interview email invite: 9/16, 1st group interviews on 10/9 with orientation/dinner on 10/8.

Program director: Rocky Saenz, D.O.
Dr. Saenz is really a great guy and probably the best PD in my opinion of all the radiology programs. He is VERY involved with teaching the residents, is extremely talented in radiology having done his cross-sectional fellowship at UCSF(or UCSD can’t remember?). He is also very involved in the curriculum of the program and sits in most lectures, and tries to get the other attendings to present topics to the residents by making a schedule. If you rotate here, make sure you get to spend some time with him, it’s the key to a good Botsford rotation! It seems like he has a good amount of influence in who gets interviews and who doesn’t.

Interviews:
around 30ish, they split them into two groups about three weeks apart. There isn’t really any meaning to being in the 1st vs. the 2nd group, they sometimes have students who rotate after the 1st interview group and put them into the 2nd. Their interviews were actually the most formal of all the interviews I went on, panel format with Dr. Saenz, Dr. Lyddon, and Dr. Schwartz facing you firing away! It was a pretty relaxed interview once you get going and they started by pulling from my “hobbies.” Although, just to warn you, Dr. Schwartz likes to throw curveballs and see you squirm, so he’ll ask you about “what kind of kitchen appliance would you be?”, or “in 7 words summarize your favorite novel” The other interview you do is with a Resident panel and they basically ask you if you have any questions.

Volume/Call:
The volume seemed to be adequate, no residents were ever sitting around without studies to read during my time there. The hospital is actually a pretty big D.O. hospital and they have multiple specialties with a fairly busy ER which makes for some good Radiology. The residents do take call and are alone during call, so you make the decisions! Residents read out with the attending in the morning. Some areas they weren’t very busy (flouro, interventional). I think Interventional radiology is their biggest weakness, with some of the more exciting procedures being paracentesis and thoracentesis while I was there… So if this is definitely something you are interested in, take that into consideration.

Didactics:
The best didactics out of all the programs I visited. They have daily didactics, and a schedule of lectures from the attendings. Dr. Saenz also does a “call review series” for residents so that they are prepared for the beginning of call. Like I said before, the attendings (especially Dr. Saenz) are very involved which wasn’t the case at most places.

Attendings:
Dr. Saenz is really the only “young blood” within the group of attendings. The two other main guys are Dr. Lyddon and Dr. Schwartz. Lyddon is a very quiet guy and very nice, if you ask him questions he’s more than willing to discuss but otherwise he’ll just say hi and not deal with students to much. Dr. Schwartz on the other hand loves to pimp and put the pressure on, so expect that if you spend time with him on your rotation. These three attendings really care about the program and stress the fact that it is a “family.” They want you to succeed and put a lot of time into your training, more so than most of the other places I visited.

Resident morale:
In general the residents seemed happy, and were a pretty cohesive group. They stated that they are constantly feeling pressure from the attendings to keep up with the program, which I saw as a positive. They didn’t necessarily seem to hang out outside of the residency as most of the residents had families and did their own things. But they all got along for the most part.

Rotation:
Most of the people at the interview had rotated through the program. The people who didn’t rotate, but were at the interview, seemed to be some of the best applicants who I saw at the other interviews as well.
This is a more “involved” rotation for medical students, although during the month of August they were crazy busy with med students! There were 7 there at one time, but usually only 3-4 students. They will make schedules for you and assign you to specific attending while you are there. If no one is assigned to Dr. Saenz and you aren’t getting to spend much time with him, just ask if he cares if you spend the day with him (he won’t unless you annoy him!) But don’t step on other students toes, if another student is assigned to Dr. Saenz don’t be that gunner who doubles up and takes time from another student, he’ll catch onto that and won’t see it as a positive… Also, you will be expected to do a presentation during your rotation. Spend some time on it, one of the residents there told me that they take a great deal of consideration into the amount of time you seemed to spend on your presentation!

 

[RipCity]

Mt. Clemens: Interview email invite 10/2, interview in middle of October. This will change with every student though and was not a "formal" invite. He may just interview you when you go in to introduce yourself to Dr. Shapiro around October... I got feedback from teh program on where I stood in the ranking that was very helpful.

Program director: Eli Shapiro, D.O.
Dr. Shapiro is a fairly quiet guy but very approachable and receptive to students that are interested in his program. He wants to get to know students interested in the program and usually gives a student a shot(interview) if they show interest in the program. He does also use board scores as a strong factor, but really wants someone who gets along with the residents and will fit in. They have a smaller program, and wants a cohesive group of residents. He see’s his role as more of a “boss,” and the residents learn on the job by reading studies and going over them with him. He sees the Tuesday Lansing day as the educational day and lets MSU cover the educational aspect of the residency.
Interviews:
Interviews are VERY laidback. You go into his office and he basically has a conversation with you about yourself. It is pretty informal and I think he just wants to get to you know you. No tricky questions on this one, but it would be a difficult interview if you weren’t good at having conversation because he started my interview by asking me if I had any questions….
Volume/Call:
They have some of the best volume out of all the MSU programs I visited. It is a VERY busy hospital and one of the nicer hospitals of Detroit hospitals. The residents could never read all the studies that were available on the PACS system. They take home call on their computers and rarely have to ever go in. The junior residents start out by taking “buddy” call with the seniors, and then take full time call alone. This is nice because if they have a quiet night, they sleep… If it’s busy they still get to work from home!
Didactics:
Not the best didactics at this program. They do go through lectures at lunch together in their resident reading room, and go through cases together, but currently they were not Attending driven. They have two new attendings that are both younger and just finished their fellowships, so I kindof thought this might change because these guys were showing interest in being involved in didactics. But last year there was no attending involvement in the didactics, as I said, Dr. Shapiro saw the MSU program as the educational aspect of the program.
Attendings:
The attending are actually very good, but they are so busy working because of the heavy workload that they don’t have much time to teach. A pretty easy-going group of Attendings that DO NOT pimp the students and are pretty laid back. The residents really drive their own pace and have a lot of self-guidance.
Resident morale:
The residents are a nice group of guys and all get along pretty well, but don’t have to much in common with eachother. Not much camaraderie outside of the hospital. I think the residents felt that they miss out on a lot of teaching from the attending, and definitely said that was one of the weaknesses of the program. They are also starting to take numerous “unfunded” students, which might also add a twist to the program. I thought it might be strange having fellow residents who are paying their way through the program, and maybe their motivation would be a little different??
Rotation:
It is vital to at least stop by and introduce yourself to Dr. Shapiro and the residents a couple times, but a two week rotation would also pay off here. This is a very laid back rotation. I think it is important to get along with the residents, don’t hang around to much or harass them. They have started having students do presentations, so as always, put some time into these. Try to spend a good amount of time with Dr. Shapiro on your rotation, don’t be shy, he is actually very receptive to students spending an hour or two with him.

 

[RipCity]

Garden City Interview email invite on 10/23, Optional hospital tours 11/13, interviews at East Lansing 11/14. I also got a “ranking status update” from them on 1/12 that gave me a very good idea of where I stood in their ranking.

Program director: Dennis Vollman, D.O.
Dr. Vollman has been a program director at a couple other programs and has worked in the Detroit area in a couple residencies and is pretty well known among the “Program Director” crowd. He is very academic and EXTREMELY smart when it comes to radiology, and he’ll pimp you, so be prepared. Although, he was really only at the program about 1 ½ days a week. He’s supposed to be there two days a week but most of the time he would miss a day here and there. He has a private practice that he spends a lot of time at. The two days that he is at the program he is VERY involved and pretty much reads out most of the residents during the day. The real kicker are his “lectures.” He does these after the workday is over and on the two days he’s there the residents go downstairs to a lecture hall and he does anywhere from 2-3ish hour lectures on specific topics.

Dr. Vollman has a huge syllabus that he gives to interested students, and the entire program is pretty much mapped out for residents. He has Interns/Residents create Powerpoint lectures on chapters of reading from Radiology textbooks, and these are VERY detailed lectures that take a good amount of time. If he is gone on one of the two days he will have residents present the lectures to eachother. Dr. Vollman is a pretty demanding program director and does expect a lot of his residents. He is on the board of examiners for the final board exam in Rads residency, so I would guess he has some good insight into the exams… All in all, he’s actually a really nice guy and willing to put a lot of time into teaching you if you give the effort back to him.

I think he is looking for COMLEX I scores 550+ as a baseline, but I got the feeling that he was impressed with 600+… The “magical” 600. This is one of the more “board score” emphasis programs.

Interviews:
Garden City, Henry Ford, and Pontiac interviews are all done at East Lansing on the same day. You sit in a general waiting room and wait your turn to get interviewed by the residents first, and then the Attendings. The resident interview was very laidback, answer any questions you might have. Interview with Dr. Vollman was kindof stressful but I knew that going in, so just get mentally prepared for a tough interview! He will ask you a riddle, why you think you fit into his type of program, and other pointed questions… Will not be much of a conversation, more just you talking. He asked me about the flow of CSF, where it was created and it’s purpose. He also asked the riddle about marbles, and told me “I want you to think out-loud while you tell me the answer because I want to know how you think.”

Volume/Call:
This was a huge negative for the program in my point of view. The volume is very low, and while I was there residents were struggling to fill their day with studies and would check the PACS for studies… After the morning rush there wasn’t much going on. In the past they had a trailor MRI that was there a couple days a week. Also, they did not take any call in the past (rumor was this was going to change so if anyone knows, change accordingly!) A resident would stay late with an Attending in house, but no overnight call. Because of the low volume the residents had a lot of time to study during the day, and would look up interesting cases extensively. To be honest, the hospital kindof makes me nervous. With the shifting population of Detroit and how few studies the residents were getting, it just didn’t seem like a good thing to me. They also cut a spot this last year and only took two students, down from their usual three.

Didactics:
As I mentioned above, they have their lectures two days a week at the end of the workday. In the mornings sometimes they huddle around a computer and go over Case of the day, but nothing formal. The bulk of the didactics are from the Powerpoint presentations that Dr. Vollman has the residents put together, and then Tuesdays at East Lansing.

Attendings:
The attendings all get along fairly well with the residents, but are not involved in teaching outside of viewbox stuff. Dr. Vollman is the main “teaching” attending, the others will read cases out with you and pimp you on stuff but do not attend lectures.

Resident morale:
This group of residents are all really nice and get along ok but just don’t seem to have much in common. I didn’t get the feeling they hung out much outside of the program. They all seemed happy to be in a Radiology residency program (who isn’t!?), but non really spoke to highly of the hospital while I was there.

Rotation:
Many people were interviewed without rotating at this program but Dr. Vollman looks at board scores pretty strictly. He asked me my board score the first day of my rotation. So if you don’t have the best board scores you will probably need to rotate there to get an interview. Also, he does pay VERY close attention to the presentation you make and puts a lot of importance into these. He will give you a topic, he used to do chapters from Radiology textbooks but now he’s been giving out Anatomy topics. So if you rotate, spend a lot of time on the presentation. The residents will suggest you go to the library and work on it often, and they will also emphasize how important the presentation is.