Osteopathic doctor going into cardiology

[ptavasso]

I'm a Canadian student with a 3.68 GPA and I am writing my MCAT August 22 (guessing 35+ for my score because of practice tests).

I am applying to Canadian and American MD schools as well as US DO schools.
My question is regarding the osteopathic career choice.

I am very interested in pursuing osteopathy and I want to eventually practice cardiology (I know this can change and nothing is determined now but it's just a thought).
To become a cardiologist, is this the correct career path:
medical school --> internal medicine residency (the basic family doctor residency) --> fellowship in cardiology.

I heard that getting into internal medicine residency is the same competitiveness for DO and MD and it is for higher residencies like surgery that a DO needs to work harder than an MD. Is this correct?

If this is true, if I pursue osteopathy or allopathy, would my chances of becoming a cardiologist be the same since the competitiveness involved is when getting a residency and that is not present for internal medicine (only for higher residencies) between MD and DO?

Also, is the type of cardiologist that I am talking about (fellowship after residency) the only type you can become? Do all cardiologists (not the surgeons) go from internal medicine to cardiology fellowship?

Does the pay of ~ 300k for a cardiologist what I would receive if I followed my outlined career path or do they get paid less if they are DO?


TL;DR version: am I right in thinking becoming a cardiologist is the same level of competitiveness for DO and MD students since they would be competing for residency in internal medicine and that is not a competitive residency?

Please provide any information thank you.

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[Didierdrogba]

MDs and DOs make the same amount of $.

cant comment on how hard it is to get a fellowship.

 

[nardini46]

See bolded text.

I'm a Canadian student with a 3.68 GPA and I am writing my MCAT August 22 (guessing 35+ for my score because of practice tests).

I am applying to Canadian and American MD schools as well as US DO schools.
My question is regarding the osteopathic career choice.

I am very interested in pursuing osteopathy and I want to eventually practice cardiology (I know this can change and nothing is determined now but it's just a thought).
To become a cardiologist, is this the correct career path:
medical school --> internal medicine residency (the basic family doctor residency) --> fellowship in cardiology.

I heard that getting into internal medicine residency is the same competitiveness for DO and MD and it is for higher residencies like surgery that a DO needs to work harder than an MD. Is this correct? To match into a cardiology fellowship, you need to match into a mid tier/upper tier internal medicine residency. This is difficult as an MD and DO. You will need to score well on your COMLEX and USMLE to attain a competitive internal medicine residency position.

If this is true, if I pursue osteopathy or allopathy, would my chances of becoming a cardiologist be the same since the competitiveness involved is when getting a residency and that is not present for internal medicine (only for higher residencies) between MD and DO? Once you are in a particular residency program no one cares if your an MD or DO.

Also, is the type of cardiologist that I am talking about (fellowship after residency) the only type you can become? Do all cardiologists (not the surgeons) go from internal medicine to cardiology fellowship? Yes

Does the pay of ~ 300k for a cardiologist what I would receive if I followed my outlined career path or do they get paid less if they are DO? Pay is the same.

.

 

[ptavasso]

Thank you. Whether or not a cardiology fellowship is difficult or not is irrelevant when comparing DO and MD, right? It would be hard whether you are DO or MD and your chances aren't changed depending on which you are since after residency it doesn't matter, correct?
That's what I am understanding from your post. Please clarify if I'm wrong.

See bolded text.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Thank you. Whether or not a cardiology fellowship is difficult or not is irrelevant when comparing DO and MD, right? It would be hard whether you are DO or MD and your chances aren't changed depending on which you are since after residency it doesn't matter, correct?
That's what I am understanding from your post. Please clarify if I'm wrong.

depends, It seems that the biggest hurdle for cardiology aspiring DO's is having to match into a good internal medicine program (if you are doing the ACGME route). But there are also osteopathic cardiology programs as well. but this is not to say that going MD will make it easier.

 

[ptavasso]

I thought that getting into IM as a DO was no problem since more than half of DO go into internal med and the competition is less. Can you please quickly summarize what ACGME is?

depends, It seems that the biggest hurdle for cardiology aspiring DO's is having to match into a good internal medicine program (if you are doing the ACGME route). But there are also osteopathic cardiology programs as well. but this is not to say that going MD will make it easier.

 

[Banned]

I thought that getting into IM as a DO was no problem since more than half of DO go into internal med and the competition is less. Can you please quickly summarize what ACGME is?

IM programs span from top-tier academic shops (think MGH, JHU, UCSF) to community IMG sweatshops (ahem Wayne State). There's a huge range. Getting into ANY IM residency is easy. Getting into a good one is harder. If you want cardio, you would ideally match to a respectable IM program with a cardio program in house.

Cliffs ahead. Residencies either fall under ACGME or AOA. ACGME is "MD" but really anyone (MBBS, MD, DO, etc) can match into one, and the better residencies usually require a USMLE, so as a DO you would need to take both the USMLE and COMLEX. AOA is for DO graduates only. Google is your friend.

 

[ptavasso]

Oh right, that makes sense. My general statement is that wanting to get into a mid/ high tier IM residency has nothing to do with being MD or DO, it's the individual student because DO and MD don't differ in competitiveness regarding IM.

That explanation was better than google. Thanks a lot.
What is the comparison of the salaries between a AOA cardiologist and a ACGME cardiologist?

IM programs span from top-tier academic shops (think MGH, JHU, UCSF) to community IMG sweatshops (ahem Wayne State). There's a huge range. Getting into ANY IM residency is easy. Getting into a good one is harder. If you want cardio, you would ideally match to a respectable IM program with a cardio program in house.

Cliffs ahead. Residencies either fall under ACGME or AOA. ACGME is "MD" but really anyone (MBBS, MD, DO, etc) can match into one, and the better residencies usually require a USMLE, so as a DO you would need to take both the USMLE and COMLEX. AOA is for DO graduates only. Google is your friend.

 

[sylvanthus]

Oh right, that makes sense. My general statement is that wanting to get into a mid/ high tier IM residency has nothing to do with being MD or DO, it's the individual student because DO and MD don't differ in competitiveness regarding IM.

That explanation was better than google. Thanks a lot.
What is the comparison of the salaries between a AOA cardiologist and a ACGME cardiologist?

The bolded above is definitely incorrect. Being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs. Btw, before someone posts an N=1 example, some exceptions obviously do happen, but in general, being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs.

 

[ptavasso]

Yes that makes sense but exactly how much of a hindrance is it? Is it the same as a Canadian applying to a US med school vs a US student applying to a US med school (assuming it's only based on their citizenship and not on the state the school is in) or is it a greater difference?

The bolded above is definitely incorrect. Being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs. Btw, before someone posts an N=1 example, some exceptions obviously do happen, but in general, being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs.

 

[sylvanthus]

Yes that makes sense but exactly how much of a hindrance is it? Is it the same as a Canadian applying to a US med school vs a US student applying to a US med school (assuming it's only based on their citizenship and not on the state the school is in) or is it a greater difference?

It depends on the individual program, the state, the program director, any prior DOs that they have had, etc etc etc. Way way too many variables. So, basically, it depends.

 

[Akail]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

^Data on how osteopaths do in ACGME fellowship matching

 

[cliquesh]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

^Data on how osteopaths do in ACGME fellowship matching

That's a good document. I haven't seen that before. I wonder what the deal is with GI.

 

[SLC]

That's a good document. I haven't seen that before. I wonder what the deal is with GI.

Great pay, good hours; and despite all the poop jokes, it's a really awesome field. I'm not surprised DO's have a tough time. Even for MD's, the match rate is the lowest by far.

 

[doctorold]

My cousin is an MD. He's an interventional Cardiologist (you do a 1-2 years sub-speciality training after you finish the Cardiology fellowship to become one). One of his program directors is a D.O.
So, you are good. Just focus on getting into med school. Good luck 🙂

 

[Dreamstoo]

I'm a Canadian student with a 3.68 GPA and I am writing my MCAT August 22 (guessing 35+ for my score because of practice tests).

I am applying to Canadian and American MD schools as well as US DO schools.
My question is regarding the osteopathic career choice.

I am very interested in pursuing osteopathy and I want to eventually practice cardiology (I know this can change and nothing is determined now but it's just a thought).
To become a cardiologist, is this the correct career path:
medical school --> internal medicine residency (the basic family doctor residency) --> fellowship in cardiology.

I heard that getting into internal medicine residency is the same competitiveness for DO and MD and it is for higher residencies like surgery that a DO needs to work harder than an MD. Is this correct?

If this is true, if I pursue osteopathy or allopathy, would my chances of becoming a cardiologist be the same since the competitiveness involved is when getting a residency and that is not present for internal medicine (only for higher residencies) between MD and DO?

Also, is the type of cardiologist that I am talking about (fellowship after residency) the only type you can become? Do all cardiologists (not the surgeons) go from internal medicine to cardiology fellowship?

Does the pay of ~ 300k for a cardiologist what I would receive if I followed my outlined career path or do they get paid less if they are DO?


TL;DR version: am I right in thinking becoming a cardiologist is the same level of competitiveness for DO and MD students since they would be competing for residency in internal medicine and that is not a competitive residency?

Please provide any information thank you.

If you want to become a cardiologist, why would you worry so much about the pay? Cardiologists for DO and MD get paid about the same amount. At least in my area, I've heard of DO cardiologists making upwards of 400k without breaking a sweat.

 

[coolingglasses]

It's certainly feasible. I know an entire physician group composed of cardiologist DOs.

Of course, they're well into their careers now and the landscape has changed quite a bit since they graduated...

 

[razor]

I am very interested in pursuing osteopathy



.

Why (osteopathic medicine)? If you have a good reason to go DO, than do it. Otherwise, it seems like you're worried it will hinder your chances of getting into cardiology, so why not go MD and not have to worry?

 

[SFU]

As a Canadian, it will be harder. You don't have access to AOA residencies, so your only option is acgme Canadian and US. EM is already hard, it would be anecdotally harder as a candian DO. If you have the option go to a candian md or us md for an added advantage. But regardless it will be hard with any option.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

It's certainly feasible. I know an entire physician group composed of cardiologist DOs.

Of course, they're well into their careers now and the landscape has changed quite a bit since they graduated...

Des Peres?

 

[hallowmann]

Yes that makes sense but exactly how much of a hindrance is it? Is it the same as a Canadian applying to a US med school vs a US student applying to a US med school (assuming it's only based on their citizenship and not on the state the school is in) or is it a greater difference?

For simplicity apply to all, see what you get, and make your decision based on your options. Generally, it is harder for a DO to get into a competitive ACGME IM residency than an MD with the same stats. That being said, its probably easier in most areas to get into a competitive IM residency as a DO than as a Carib MD (exceptions perhaps being in the NY/NJ area).

If you get into a Canadian medical school, go there. If you don't get into a Canadian MD school, as a Canadian, its probably better for you to go to either MSU-COM (they have a program targeted for Canadians) or a US MD school.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Why (osteopathic medicine)? If you have a good reason to go DO, than do it. Otherwise, it seems like you're worried it will hinder your chances of getting into cardiology, so why not go MD and not have to worry?

Isn't it obvious by the post that DO is backup since he's applying Canada and US MD?

 

[SFU]

Remember a lot of the anecdotes on the forum apply mostly to us citizens. Canadians doing do are much different in terms of situation and likely hoods since you can't so AOA residencies.

 

[IMDoc607]

The bolded above is definitely incorrect. Being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs. Btw, before someone posts an N=1 example, some exceptions obviously do happen, but in general, being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs.

This is accurate. I'm starting my cardiology fellowship July 1. Getting interviews were more difficult as a DO but if you do enough research I feel it would make up for it. For some reason, fellowships love research.

 

[ZezKaiEll]

This is accurate. I'm starting my cardiology fellowship July 1. Getting interviews were more difficult as a DO but if you do enough research I feel it would make up for it. For some reason, fellowships love research.

For the most part is this research during residency? or medical school? Congrats on getting into Cards though.

 

[SFU]

Again, most of the perspectives are from us citizens, compound the visa aspect for Canadians, and its a tad bit more difficult.

 

[IMDoc607]

For the most part is this research during residency? or medical school? Congrats on getting into Cards though.

Residency.....if you get published you will get interviews....MD or DO.

 

[NYEMMED]

For the most part is this research during residency? or medical school? Congrats on getting into Cards though.

For fellowships the research is in residency, however many (if not most) residency programs require research anyway.

 

[IMDoc607]

For fellowships the research is in residency, however many (if not most) residency programs require research anyway.

It's not just research tho.....you need to get published at least once or twice.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I am very interested in pursuing osteopathy and I want to eventually practice cardiology (I know this can change and nothing is determined now but it's just a thought).
To become a cardiologist, is this the correct career path:
medical school --> internal medicine residency (the basic family doctor residency) --> fellowship in cardiology.

I heard that getting into internal medicine residency is the same competitiveness for DO and MD and it is for higher residencies like surgery that a DO needs to work harder than an MD. Is this correct?

If this is true, if I pursue osteopathy or allopathy, would my chances of becoming a cardiologist be the same since the competitiveness involved is when getting a residency and that is not present for internal medicine (only for higher residencies) between MD and DO?

TL;DR version: am I right in thinking becoming a cardiologist is the same level of competitiveness for DO and MD students since they would be competing for residency in internal medicine and that is not a competitive residency?

Please provide any information thank you.

The three competitive fellowships from IM are Cards, GI and Heme/onc. Doing whatever you can to increase your chances is a good idea. The things you can do are get into a stronger IM residency, do very well during residency, get to know your hospital's cards dept, research, and national/regional presentations.

Your chances from a low tier IM program vs a mid-tier program are quite different. So shoot for the best IM program where you would be happy.

Getting involved in research is a must. Publishing is a good idea although a bunch of my friends did not do much if any research and matched to very good programs.

To be nit-picky- an IM doctor is not a family doctor. We do not deal with kids or pregos. We deal solely with adult medicine and what we see tends to be much more acute than what a family doc sees. Also, while IM is not compeitive as whole, that is because there are droves of IMG mills that are not competitive. At the top programs, it is just as competitive as most very competitive specialties.

Oh right, that makes sense. My general statement is that wanting to get into a mid/ high tier IM residency has nothing to do with being MD or DO, it's the individual student because DO and MD don't differ in competitiveness regarding IM.

Yes and no. It seems based on what others have posted on the board that it is a bit more difficult as a DO. At top tier programs this is quite obvious because few programs have taken DOs. You don't need to match to a top tier program to get into cards though. Nonetheless, for IM residency, coming from a DO school will put you at a mild disadvantage- that is with the same stats you will not match to as strong of a program.

Based on the link posted, you can see the match rates for MDs and DOs are different but this probably takes into account the difference in residency. I imagine those at a given IM program have the same rate of matching.

So in the end, if you want to have the best options for fellowship, shoot for the best program you can. If you just want to go into general IM, especially around where the IM program is, you shouldn't be too worried about the strength of residency you choose.

 

[ptavasso]

Very informative and thorough response. Thank you.

The three competitive fellowships from IM are Cards, GI and Heme/onc. Doing whatever you can to increase your chances is a good idea. The things you can do are get into a stronger IM residency, do very well during residency, get to know your hospital's cards dept, research, and national/regional presentations.

Your chances from a low tier IM program vs a mid-tier program are quite different. So shoot for the best IM program where you would be happy.

Getting involved in research is a must. Publishing is a good idea although a bunch of my friends did not do much if any research and matched to very good programs.

To be nit-picky- an IM doctor is not a family doctor. We do not deal with kids or pregos. We deal solely with adult medicine and what we see tends to be much more acute than what a family doc sees. Also, while IM is not compeitive as whole, that is because there are droves of IMG mills that are not competitive. At the top programs, it is just as competitive as most very competitive specialties.



Yes and no. It seems based on what others have posted on the board that it is a bit more difficult as a DO. At top tier programs this is quite obvious because few programs have taken DOs. You don't need to match to a top tier program to get into cards though. Nonetheless, for IM residency, coming from a DO school will put you at a mild disadvantage- that is with the same stats you will not match to as strong of a program.

Based on the link posted, you can see the match rates for MDs and DOs are different but this probably takes into account the difference in residency. I imagine those at a given IM program have the same rate of matching.

So in the end, if you want to have the best options for fellowship, shoot for the best program you can. If you just want to go into general IM, especially around where the IM program is, you shouldn't be too worried about the strength of residency you choose.

 

[circulus vitios]

Is a mid/top-tier program really necessary for cardiology or other IM subspecialties? I remember reading that fellowships are attainable from any tier of IM program, provided that you are a hard-working resident and your program has in-house fellowship programs.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Is a mid/top-tier program really necessary for cardiology or other IM subspecialties? I remember reading that fellowships are attainable from any tier of IM program, provided that you are a hard-working resident and your program has in-house fellowship programs.

First, depends on the IM subspecialties... If you want endocrine, rheum or nephrology you will match if you have a pulse and can speak English. Obviously I'm joking but these specialties are easy to match into.

Again, Cards, GI and Heme/onc tend to be more competitive. You definitely don't have to be at a top program nor do you have to be from a mid-tier program. With that said, coming from an AOA program and trying to match into ACGME cards is going to be near impossible. Also, coming from a small community program will make matching into anything except an inhouse fellowship more difficult. That difficulty translates into a much, much higher failure to match rate. As an example, most people are told to apply to 30-50 programs coming from a run of the mill, mid-tier program (for instance, University of Maryland, VCU, Temple). At a very strong program, they are told to apply to 10 or less. That difference between middle and top tier is even more pronounced between low and middle tier.

For clarification, most university programs are mid-tier. The top 30 or so IM programs most would consider out of the mid-tier designation.

 

[cabinbuilder]

The bolded above is definitely incorrect. Being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs. Btw, before someone posts an N=1 example, some exceptions obviously do happen, but in general, being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs.

Speaking of exceptions and n=1. Google Todd Zynda the founder of combank and tell me that his degree from LECOM was a hindrance? It's all about your board scores and personality.

 

[NontradCA]

The bolded above is definitely incorrect. Being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs. Btw, before someone posts an N=1 example, some exceptions obviously do happen, but in general, being a DO is a hindrance for the higher tier programs.

Did you have issues with higher tier programs? Do you mind being specific as to what the hindrance was? You're EM right? I thought EM was very DO friendly.

 

[sylvanthus]

Speaking of exceptions and n=1. Google Todd Zynda the founder of combank and tell me that his degree from LECOM was a hindrance? It's all about your board scores and personality.

Incorrect. The Program Directors Survey (google it sometime) shows that 25% of EM PDs will not even interview DOs. How again is that related to board scores and personality?

 

[sylvanthus]

Did you have issues with higher tier programs? Do you mind being specific as to what the hindrance was? You're EM right? I thought EM was very DO friendly.

Im EM/IM so doing both. While applying to residency I had to apply to twice as many programs as MDs with lower stats to get the same number of interviews. Also, the most respected EM programs just flat out rejected me even with 250+ Usmles, national leadership, Honors in EM, 700ish comlex, ED tech experience, 3/75 class rank, no red flags, etc etc etc.

Considering I had great boards, class rank, no red flags, you know it was the DO degree that held me back at these places.

 

[sylvanthus]

Speaking of exceptions and n=1. Google Todd Zynda the founder of combank and tell me that his degree from LECOM was a hindrance? It's all about your board scores and personality.

I prefer data to N=1 examples. We can all find an exception to everything, that's not the point.

 

[NontradCA]

Im EM/IM so doing both. While applying to residency I had to apply to twice as many programs as MDs with lower stats to get the same number of interviews. Also, the most respected EM programs just flat out rejected me even with 250+ Usmles, national leadership, Honors in EM, 700ish comlex, ED tech experience, 3/75 class rank, no red flags, etc etc etc.

Considering I had great boards, class rank, no red flags, you know it was the DO degree that held me back at these places.

Damn. So what would you say to future DO students? It would seem that board scores are even more important, and having to score above MD counterparts?

 

[sylvanthus]

Damn. So what would you say to future DO students? It would seem that board scores are even more important, and having to score above MD counterparts?

I would say take the USMLE and apply to a crap ton of programs to play it safe.

 

[NontradCA]

I would say take the USMLE and apply to a crap ton of programs to play it safe.

Gotcha. But what's the downside to not having opportunities for top tier programs? Will the training be any different at mid tier programs?

 

[sylvanthus]

Gotcha. But what's the downside to not having opportunities for top tier programs? Will the training be any different at mid tier programs?

I think it is probably fine. I'm at a upper mid tier apparently and can do a multitude of fellowships, but will be doing critical care as it is only one year for me and auto acceptance.

 

[NontradCA]

I think it is probably fine. I'm at a upper mid tier apparently and can do a multitude of fellowships, but will be doing critical care as it is only one year for me and auto acceptance.

Do you have a family? What makes you want so much training? Also, if someone's not interested in fellowships, does the tier of program matter at all? Are there seriously places where you're not learning or seeing as much as you should be to be competent? If the accrediting body requires x amount of whatever, and there are boards- why does place of residency matter?

 

[sylvanthus]

Do you have a family? What makes you want so much training?

EM/IM/CC is 6 years (at 3 of the EM/IM programs anyhow) so it isn't that terribly long. EM to CC would be 5 years anyhow, so essentially one extra year for triple certification and arguably better training.

Ya, Im married, no kids yet. I intend to work in the ED and ICU and believe the IM training will be a good foundation for critical care.

 

[cliquesh]

Which residency you went to says something about you. Just like what college or medical school you went to. Hospitals vary a lot and residencies vary a lot. Do you really think a 200 bed hospital provides the same exposure as a 1000 plus bed hospital?

 

[NontradCA]

Which residency you went to says something about you. Just like what college or medical school you went to. Hospitals vary a lot and residencies vary a lot. Do you really think a 200 bed hospital provides the same exposure as a 1000 plus bed hospital?

What you're describing in the first sentence is prestige, which as a matter of importance, can be ranked low in anyone going to a DO school. But no, of course it's not going to bring the same amount of exposure. Is that how students and physicians rank residencies - by number of beds? I mean arrowhead regional in CA is huge, but I don't think it would be considered mid tier on here.

 

[cliquesh]

What you're describing in the first sentence is prestige, which as a matter of importance, can be ranked low in anyone going to a DO school. But no, of course it's not going to bring the same amount of exposure. Is that how students and physicians rank residencies - by number of beds? I mean arrowhead regional in CA is huge, but I don't think it would be considered mid tier on here.

Bed size, complexity of cases, research and academic achievement, famous clinicians working there, fellowship opportunities, and where the alumni go for fellowship or employment are some of the factors people look at.

Arrowhead regional is a 450 bed hospital, which is a larger community hospital. Small university hospitals are around 600.

If you do not want to do a fellowship, it doesn't matter where you go that much. A good community program would be fine.

 

[pattr]

Im EM/IM so doing both. While applying to residency I had to apply to twice as many programs as MDs with lower stats to get the same number of interviews. Also, the most respected EM programs just flat out rejected me even with 250+ Usmles, national leadership, Honors in EM, 700ish comlex, ED tech experience, 3/75 class rank, no red flags, etc etc etc.

Considering I had great boards, class rank, no red flags, you know it was the DO degree that held me back at these places.

Do you think you would've gotten more love had you come from a more "known" DO school or a lesser-known/new MD school?

 

[Mehd School]

No nut-hugging, but holy crap thanks to Sylvanthus and Cliquesh for being the voice of truth in this subforum. Most people disappear after they graduate.

 

[sylvanthus]

do you think you would've gotten more love had you come from a more "known" do school or a lesser-known/new md school?

md.