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Osteopathic EM programs

Discussion in 'Emergency Medicine' started by nutka1111, Sep 27, 2009.

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  1. dctodo

    dctodo 2+ Year Member

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    I'm a current 3rd yr looking to apply to EM next yr. For those of you who have received AOA EM interviews this year, when was the latest slot that you did your audition to get SLOES since AOA opens around 7/15? So far I have 2 EM electives scheduled for Aug and Sept, and still trying to find one for July. Thanks!
     
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  3. This Guy

    This Guy 2+ Year Member

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    I did Aug and Sept
     
    dctodo likes this.
  4. EMSCR

    EMSCR EM Resident 2+ Year Member

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    Less than 24 hours everyone !
     
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  5. sb247

    sb247 wait...you mean I got in? 5+ Year Member

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    Galt's Gulch
    May the odds be ever in your favor
     
  6. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Good luck tomorrow everyone! And for those going the ACGME route, only one more month to go!
     
    explorertx and EMSCR like this.
  7. engineeredout

    engineeredout 7+ Year Member

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    Good luck everyone who is freaking out right now. Four years ago I was the one who didn't sleep the night before and was up at 4am.

    All I can say is no matter the outcome, life will go on.
     
  8. ladybug1552

    ladybug1552 5+ Year Member

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    Winterfell
    Matched! Super didn't see that particular program happening but glad I matched and loved the program all the same! Glad that stress is over!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  9. ladybug1552

    ladybug1552 5+ Year Member

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    Winterfell
    By the way, check your emails.
     
  10. scribbler90

    scribbler90

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    Matched my #1!!
     
    This Guy, explorertx, txny1 and 3 others like this.
  11. EMSCR

    EMSCR EM Resident 2+ Year Member

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    Got into my #1 ! Congrats to everyone matching today !!
     
    This Guy, explorertx, txny1 and 2 others like this.
  12. txny1

    txny1

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    matched :)
     
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  13. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Congratulations to everyone that matched!

    For the 3rd years out there, I'm still getting a lot of questions and confusion about the 2018 match and beyond re: single accreditation. I've tried to clarify this in past posts, but I'm going to try and explain this again in case there are still some confused folks out there.

    To define the terms:
    Pre-accreditation - Filled out a large form to apply for accreditation. Once the form is filed, the program is pre-accredited. You don't have to meet any standards, just have to fill out the application.
    Initial accreditation - Once pre-accredited, programs get a site visit where the program is reviewed by the ACGME. The RRC meets to decide if the program meets standards or not. If they are accepted into the ACGME, they gain initial accreditation and can participate in the ACGME match
    Continued pre-accreditation - If a program has its site visit after pre-accreditation, and does not meet ACGME standards, they remain in continued pre-accreditation status to try and fix any issues they have and have another site visit down the road to try and gain initial accreditation.

    By 2017, all programs had to be pre-accredited by the ACGME in order to continue participating in the AOA match.
    By 2020, all programs must gain initial accreditation with the ACGME.

    So with all that defined, let me explain whats going on specific to EM, because EM is somewhat like most other specialties. In the ACGME world, most EM programs (>90%) are 3 year programs. In the AOA world, all are 4 years. The AOA does not accredit 3 year EM programs. In most other specialties, the # of years are the same. So when an FP program gains initial accredidation with the ACGME, they can remain duelly accredited and still participate in both the AOA match as well as the ACGME match until the AOA match goes away (2020) because their program is a 3 year program in either system. In EM, the # of years difference throws a big wrench into that. Many if not most of the programs that are transitioning over are doing so as 3 year programs. When they do that, they automatically disqualify themselves from participating in the AOA match in future years. That's why the number of available AOA programs in the NMS (AOA) match is dwindling. The programs that are gaining initial accreditation are doing so as 3 year programs, which eliminates them from participating in the AOA match.

    So yes, there will still be an AOA match next year, and will be an AOA match until 2020, but the question just comes down to how many AOA residency sites will still be available in 2018 (and in the future), since a large number are getting set to get accredited when the RRC meets this spring. I'm estimating next year it will be in the 30's (or half of what it was 3 years ago), but it could be even less. Which potentially makes the AOA match less viable as a choice to persue. As the number of programs dwindle, the number of spots dwindle, and the spots that are often at sites that failed their initial accreditation visit. The majority of programs that really have their stuff together already will have switched over. There will still be some 4 year duelly accredited sites that will still do 4 years even under the ACGME (doctors, lehigh, etc), but these will be the exception, not the rule.

    I hope that helps to clarify things. Difficult time to be a student participating in the 2018 match, to say the least.
     
  14. Everglide

    Everglide EM PGY3 10+ Year Member

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    Pardon my ignorance but what is the argument to stay as a 4 year program? I thought to be a 4 year in the ACGME side of things you really needed a strong justification for it beyond "an extra year makes you better". Eg: tracks, mini-fellowships, stuff huge academic places have.
     
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  15. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Great question. To justify the 4th year, you need to justify the extra year of training to the ACGME. You can't simply stay 4 years and keep your old AOA curriculum just because you don't want to switch. You need to submit significant justification to the ACGME to get accredited as a 4 year program. So programs either have to develop a research heavy 4th year, some type of masters program, a robust QI curriculum, etc. Something to justify that fourth year. And since most community places aren't going to have the resources to do that, they don't and they just go to 3 years. And even if they did have the resources, many still choose 3, because 4 year programs are not very popular in the ACGME match unless you are a place with considerable academic weight like Hopkins, Penn, or USC.
     
  16. walleyealx

    walleyealx Keep on Dreaming... 10+ Year Member

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    I'm only aware of a small minority of AOA programs that are planning on switching to 3 years. (At least concerning the Midwest)
     
  17. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

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    Matched and super happy about it. However, I have a question to the SDN gods. The match was a huge crap shoot and people that were shoe-in's didnt get marched and outliers got their top spots. There was one case in particular that I heard which was mind boggling. Is there such a thing as mistakes in the match? A typo? Program entered the number of the applicant wrong? Does that ever happened?
     
  18. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST Lifetime Donor 10+ Year Member

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    It happened in the specialty (San Francisco) match about 10 years ago. That match was for uro, and, I think, ENT, ophtho, and neurosurgery. The uro match was backwards - the bottom was at top, and top at bottom. Did they honor it? No way. It was "oops, sorry, assholes, you're out of luck!"

    So, it is not unprecedented.
     
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  19. ladybug1552

    ladybug1552 5+ Year Member

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    Winterfell
    Right?! My classmates and I are trying to figure out why some good candidates went unmatched while some mediocre ones did match....we really have no idea...there were also many people who got matched to at least their third program on their rank list. Personally mine was in the bottom half of my rank list but I'm just thankful to have matched at all...


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  20. NYEMMED

    NYEMMED Member 5+ Year Member

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    There could be issues with the applicants.
    Great applicants can have red flags on a SLOE "student appeared stuck up, or , didn't get along with staff"

    Also they could interview poorly thinking they are safe from their great application/scores.
     
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  21. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Yep. What students think are "God candidates" may not be accurate at all. Medical students overrate the significance of board scores. We've DNR candidates with board scores in the 700s before. Bad sloes with negative comments or someone being rude in an interview just cant be made up by a good test score. Board scores are part of the package, but not the entirety of it, and its easier to overlook bad test scores than terrible sloes or an aweful interview in my opinion.
     
  22. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Possibly, but I doubt it. Some will stay 4 but the majority will switch to 3. Maybe it's a Midwest thing, I cant't say I'm familiar with all the intentions of those programs. Just a generalization from what happened the first two years of the merger process.
     
  23. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

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    Really hoping that the program I matched into decides within the next few months that they want to go 3 years!
     
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  24. MatchedEM2017

    MatchedEM2017

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    hello all! made new account to stay anonymous but i wanted to pay it forward and give you my 2 cents on these places i interviewed/rotated at. Please note though these are extremely person-dependent and only representative of how I felt during my experiences. feel free to add to the running list...


    Good Samaritan Hospital (West Islip, NY)
    Length: staying 4 years
    Spots: 4/year; there was talk about increasing but not to date

    Pros: 90k visits per year, trauma II center, see pretty good pathology; EPIC EMR, most attendings are fellowship trained in ultrasound or administration. Have separate pediatric ED staffed by pediatricians. Nursing staff better than NYC city hospitals. Free parking. 1:1 attending to resident ratio. In-house ultrasound and admin fellowships available. Have OBS unit. Within ~1hr to NYC. Beaches near by. Probably best of the NYC programs. Wednesday conferences were informative and lectures were not bad but cramped into small room. Initial accreditation

    Cons: Terrible student rotation, stood around, did nothing, gives no autonomy. Residents varied in caliber, some were well read and awesome to hang out with, some were high strung, cocky, and not the brightest. Some attendings come off as pretty malignant. Cafeteria absolutely blows. Out in the middle of no where, deep, deep into Long Island. Levy wants numbers despite anything else. Did not see many procedures during month rotating here. Trauma bay is the size of my living room. Too many mid-level providers in both fast track and main pods. Conference room is also tiny, can barely house all the residents/students. Patient population can be nasty; rich, white, entitled people who tell you how to practice. Still snows and gets cold.


    St. Barnabas Hospital (Bronx, NY)
    Length: staying 4 years
    Spots: 13/year; may or may not change; new PD, new administration

    Pros: Terrible area, which most of the time translates into good pathology and training. Will come out of here thick skinned and able to handle most things. Good food/bakery down the street, Arthur avenue. Great student rotation, lots of exposure and autonomy w/ procedures. It’s still NYC. Initial accreditation.

    Cons: Terrible patient population, terrible location, terrible ancillary/nursing staff. Nurses walk around w/ headphones in and ignore you, don’t do work. Fish bowl style ED layout, psych patients scattered throughout; come up to you at your workstation asking for pain meds. Huge HIV/HepC population. Sink or swim approach to learning; ratio ranges from 1:3 or 1:5 attending to residents. You do your own peripheral lines, you push your own patients to CT. Ton of off service rotations.


    Coney Island Hospital (Brooklyn, NY)
    Length: staying 4 years
    Spots: 6/year

    Pros: variety of experiences, multi-hospital exposure; Bronx, Harlem, Brooklyn. Awesome PD and administration. In the midst of renovating their ED as they were damaged by Hurricane Sandy. Program has ton of potential in the future; South Brooklyn has great pathology. Has own peds ED. It’s still NYC.

    Cons: poor city hospital; has bad reputation; only 1 resident showed up to our interview day. Did not get to meet people in the program. Bad area. City hospital thus, you get the same lack of ancillary and nursing support. A lot of off-service rotations with fewer EM months. Pre-accreditation

    Aria Health (Philadelphia, PA)
    Length: staying 4 years
    Spots: 6/year

    Pros: Awesome student rotation; 3 campus experience: urban, suburban and 1-doc coverage ED exposure; with all 3, see over 130k+/year. Residents were a mix bag since the class is so huge. Most were friendly and cool to hang out with and smart. Decent amount of autonomy. Attendings are mostly young, recent graduates from Aria, Temple, or St. Luke’s. Some teach more than others, some don’t at all. 10 hour shifts. A lot of ultrasound exposure. Torresdale ED is one of the most beautiful EDs I’ve ever seen, big, maybe too big. Awesome trauma bay. Good ancillary support. Decent cafeteria, pretty flexible in where you can live. Depending on whether or not you like philly, can be pro or con. Wednesday conferences seemed pretty organized and consistent.

    Cons: Some may find traveling to 3 hospitals to be a con; Frankford is in terrible location; not unusual for patients to get shot in front of the hospital (a pro if you are a procedure cowboy lol). Low salary for Philly cost of living; could not feel PD presence; a lot don’t jive well with APD.

    Kennedy University Hospital (Stratford, NJ)
    Length: converting to 3 year
    Spots: 11/year

    Pros: 3 year program; good location, close to Philly and NYC. 3-4 hospital exposure; ton of volume and pathology. Good acuity. Strong ties with medical school/facilities; academically driven. A lot of autonomy during first year. can use school facilities (gym, library, etc). Didactics were pretty well organized and PD and APD both show up to these. Cherry hill getting complete make-over. Cafeteria’s are nice and hospital facilities/ED looks relatively modern mix of curtained rooms and walled rooms. Right outside of Philadelphia – half the residents live there; ~20 min drive.

    Cons: Work a lot of shifts. They do something like 20-21 shifts per month. Some attendings teach more than others. Traveling to different sites can be a negative for some. Used to have traditional TRI-ish year with medicine call incorporated, but will probably be changing w/ 3-year conversion. A lot of self-driven learning.

    Inspira Health (Vineland, NJ)
    Length: converting 3 year
    Spots: 8/year

    Pros: 75k+/year ED visits; Brand new hospital building including ED, everything is still shiny. Awesome resident lounge/call rooms stocked with drinks/food. PD is awesome, very on top of everything; Lehigh trained, residents all seemed to get along. Some residents clinically stronger than others; seniors love to teach, some staying on as faculty this year as they graduate their first class. Good cafeteria and benefits. Good out rotations; close enough to Philadelphia. Initial accreditation. Minimal useless off service rotations.

    Cons: EMR sucks; location is not the best; about 30-45 min south of Philadelphia. Still relatively “newer” program but graduating their first class this year. Not a trauma center. Saw no trauma during my rotation.

    Garden City Hospital (Garden City, MI)
    Length: converting to 3 year
    Spots: 6/year

    Pros: the people are fantastic, everybody is friendly and happy to have you. Tight knit group, everybody seems to get along. PD has a strong presence in the ED, very supportive of his residents. Good benefits (free meals, parking, etc). Great student rotation, got to see a lot and do a lot. Free student meals + cheap student housing provided (I think like $100 for 4 weeks, but you get $300 in meal stipends during your month here).

    Cons: a lot of lower acuity pathology; ton of fast track visits covered by EM attending/residents. Very small, old hospital, poorly funded (recently bought by primehealthcare); could use a facelift. Location is not bad but not the greatest. It’s suburbs of Detroit. Admin seems to be a one man show by the PD, everything is delayed; he could use some help. Faculty never come to didactics. Didactics are okay. Some attendings don’t teach at all. Not a trauma center; don’t see much high acuity.

    Beaumont Trenton (Trenton, MI)
    Length: staying 4 year
    Spots: 6/year

    Pros: Beautiful hospital at Dearborn with 65+ bed ED (trauma level 2); high acuity, ton of patients and variety in pathology. Very procedure heavy program; most interns signed off by first few months with lines, intubations, etc. First year is done at Trenton (22 bed ED, level 2 trauma center), still gets busy, but a lot lower acuity than Dearborn. EPIC EMR, both hospitals are still brand new, shiny, and good cafeteria at both. People are very nice. Didactics very board prep driven; does Rosh Review together on Wednesdays. Two hospital experience.

    Cons: Did not see too many faculty present during rotation/interview day. Some find Detroit to be a negative. Resident group did not come off as cohesive as others. Surgery residents and EM doesn’t seem to get along; some attendings not enthusiastic about having to teach.

    Arrowhead Regional Medical Center (Colton, CA)
    Length: staying 4 years
    Spots: 8/year

    Pros: California. County Hospital with multiple other exposures to tertiary centers, community hospital, etc. Ton of trauma, I believe has 3 helicopter bays, and 8 trauma resus bays. Ton of autonomy, run own pod as intern. Attending does not see patients; just oversees residents work. Hospital still relatively new looking, a lot of faculty presence here. Didactics well organized and helpful. Come out here extremely well trained.

    Cons: walls-to-balls experience – expected due to county hospital. Sink-or-swim approach to learning w/ the autonomy… maybe too much autonomy. Residents seemed a bit cocky and high strung. Only takes rotating students; they invited a handful of us who did not rotate but asked why we didn’t rotate and made clear our chances were not great (why invite us then?). Living cost is pretty high, but expected, California. More inland than people expect. Learning happens more from your seniors than from attendings. (Trickle down effect though is a positive)

    Desert Regional Medical Center (Palm Springs, CA)
    Length: converting 3 years
    Spots: 8/year

    Pros: 3 year program, strong faculty presence; most are arrowhead trained. Great PD, very down to earth, honest and wants you to learn. Program seems to be well funded and have money. Residents seem happy and proud. Good places to eat. About 2 hours from LA/beaches. Only trauma center between arrowhead and Arizona border. Trauma center. Coachella valley. Didactics were engaging and helpful.

    Cons: still new program, have not graduated first class yet. Location may be +/-, extremely resort-like feeling in entire city. All snowbirds and visitors as patient population. Can reach 120 degrees in summer time. extremely high cost of living. The facilities are unusual; used to be a resort/hotel but relatively nice. Only takes 2-4 rotating students a month, very limiting for ppl who want to check out the program. PD pimps you during interview with medical scenarios. Trauma is mostly old ppl falling.
     
  25. SevenSummitz

    SevenSummitz

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    That is awesome, thank you so much for putting the time and effort into posting that! If anyone else wants to comment on their experiences and thoughts at the programs they interviewed / auditioned at, it would be greatly appreciated!!
     
  26. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

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    I did auditions in July, August, and September. I only got SLOEs from the July and August one because applying earlier was an advantage to me. July is a very important month to get ahead of the game. Definitely recommend doing an audition then
     
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  27. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

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    I did an audition at Port St. Lucie. I learned tons but it is a very stressful environment. They were able to give me a SLOE but took forever in getting it to me. It was a good rotation to start off with since they only interview people that auditioned but be prepared for the stress that comes with it.
     
  28. ginge0223

    ginge0223

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    Is there anyone who has rotated at Kent Hospital in Warwick, RI that has any input? Thanks.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  29. dragonfly239

    dragonfly239 ASA Member

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    ____
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  30. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST Lifetime Donor 10+ Year Member

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    What I think (as a UPMC doc, MD, who has Hamot residents moonlighting with me) is that the pathology is solid, but the location is A1 ****. There will be a bunch of LECOM puppy mill residents, just by virtue of being one of their teaching hospitals, but, due to it being "Dreary" PA, they will have difficulty attracting any (or many) MD applicants, despite it being a strong education. You want to be quick and efficient, and technically strong? It's all there. You WILL get it. However, again, it's not called "Dreary" for no reason.
     
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  31. CajunMedic

    CajunMedic 7+ Year Member

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    Has anybody got any new info on Unity Health, Searcy, AR?

    Any input on OSU-Tulsa?

    Debating on applying to either of those 2 for my 3rd audition rotation.
     
  32. Nemologist

    Nemologist 2+ Year Member

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    Quick question and hopefully somebody can help me answer: Are there any DO EM programs that would allow doing a 2-week audition and be fine with it?
     
  33. txny1

    txny1

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    some will allow it, most will discourage it

    Inspira let me do a 2-week rotation
     
  34. KNP

    KNP 2+ Year Member

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    I rotated there, and absolutely loved it (I ranked them very highly)! Great friendly residents. Most attendings enjoy teaching. Didactics were engaging overall-a mix of PPT and hands on learning. Their residents definitely were marketable throughout the country for jobs where they wanted to be. They start day 1 taking high acuity patients and then as seniors move to the fast track for some shifts to round off their training. They really focus that 4th year on managing the department. They do rotations in Providence (a 15 minute drive), one in Boston (an hour plus on the train), and trauma down in Baltimore (housing provided). My only negative was that I thought it was a little slow and that the patients weren't super sick on a daily basis, but I felt like their residents were very strong and I knew if I matched there I would get an excellent training!
     
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  35. ginge0223

    ginge0223

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    Thanks for the reply! That's the vibe I got from my interview there, but just didn't know without rotating. I went with my gut and also ranked them pretty highly. Good Luck.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  36. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

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    I auditioned at Unity Health and they did not take any students this year in the match because they did not get their ACGME accreditation. I don't think they are continuing their program.
     
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  37. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

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    I did one at Grandview so it is possible but I would NOT suggest that program or doing 2 weeks. The program can't get a good idea about you as a student and vice versa. If you HAVE to its better than not going somewhere at all.
     
  38. CajunMedic

    CajunMedic 7+ Year Member

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    Wow, only a year. AOA says they sent their app in. I wondered why they weren't in the AOA match this year. I just sent in my Audition application last week. ACGME website shows only the Psych program in Pre-accreditation.
     
  39. HooliganSnail

    HooliganSnail 5+ Year Member

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    Do a three year program if you can.

    MD's have been training EM docs in three years since the beginning, you will be 100% prepared to practice.

    Trust me, four year programs just make you wish you were done after year 3.....
     
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  40. HooliganSnail

    HooliganSnail 5+ Year Member

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    We have had several med students tanked based on how they treated the nurses. I agree with your post entirely.

    The common theme on these threads is that most med students do not entirely get what we are looking for. They vastly overrate the importance of board scores, and underrate the most important factor....playing well in the sandbox
     
  41. txny1

    txny1

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    Thanks! I actually already matched AOA and my program is thankfully confirmed for going 3-year.
     
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  42. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    If anyone is going to AAEM next week and wants to run any questions by me in person about applying to EM, the merger, a career in EM, etc shoot me a message during the conference.
     
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  43. Makati2008

    Makati2008 SDN Moderator 7+ Year Member

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    I'm sorry they wasted your time. They should have been forthcoming with you guys! I had my concerns about that program just from the little info I could gather. Is the EM program in Hattiesburg going to make it? I'm thinking that one won't as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  44. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

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    They told me they were looking for people in the mid-650's and they wouldnt event let me rotate there (mid 500) score step 2 with a low 400 step 1. They were rude and said they wanted to treat this program with the same requirements that they had at University of Arkansas (i guess their PD is from there?) Regardless, hahaha for them!
     
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  45. CajunMedic

    CajunMedic 7+ Year Member

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    They're going to make it. Last intel I got was things are going well with the ACGME process. The PD was very blunt about keeping it going through the merger. I'm auditioning there in July


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  46. CajunMedic

    CajunMedic 7+ Year Member

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    Yeah, PD was faculty at UAMS for years. I have a hard time believing mid 650's are going to go there instead of 45 miles down the road to the level 1 trauma center with a well-established EM program.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  47. Makati2008

    Makati2008 SDN Moderator 7+ Year Member

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    UAMS only accepts the usmle not comlex so that would be an issue. I'm just shocked that they had such high score requirements for a brand new program with no network, no graduated classes, as well as high risk of closure due to the merger. Also if the first class had anywhere near those scores I would be shocked.


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  48. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

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    Physician
    Faculty
    Yeah, Id say they overshot a bit if thats true, to say the least.
     
  49. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

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    ...Please do not contact "PD", doing so may totally eliminate any chance that you have of being invited here, and the chance of an invitation being extended to you is slim."

    From PD:
    ...I did not offer interviews to any DO candidate with COMLEX scores less than 600 while I was faculty at "XXX". "
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  50. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Gold Donor

    606
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    Feb 10, 2016
    Physician
    Faculty
    Wow. Thats just kind of brutal.
     
    Makati2008, sb247 and Dr.TurkandJD like this.
  51. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

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    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    Brand new program in the middle of nowhere, requesting a 600+ COMLEX and talk to their potential applicants like that? Good luck to them...
     
    mkhuc, AlteredScale, txny1 and 2 others like this.

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