SDN members see fewer ads and full resolution images. Join our non-profit community!

Osteopathic EM programs

Discussion in 'Emergency Medicine' started by nutka1111, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    18,502
    2,541
    Nov 24, 2002
    SCREW IT!
    Dude, I'm just a dumb community EM doc! All this "match" stuff is ancient history!
     
    Dr.TurkandJD and gamerEMdoc like this.
  2. SDN Members don't see this ad. About the ads.
  3. Makati2008

    Makati2008 Moderator 7+ Year Member

    1,591
    391
    Dec 18, 2008
    Sounds like their "luck" ran out....sounds like they are closing....or very delayed....


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
    racerwad likes this.
  4. racerwad

    racerwad Physician 7+ Year Member

    957
    710
    Sep 8, 2009
    That is tough to hear and somewhat crazy from the perspective of filling their class, at least they were being honest in exactly the way had been discussed in other threads about program-student interactions. I am ignoring the fact that this is bush-league program X and not LAC + USC, so they lack the bona-fides to make these kinds of demands which makes it sting all the more, but still. Kudos to their honesty.
     
  5. OSUguy17

    OSUguy17

    46
    23
    Jan 15, 2016
    Does anyone know what the requirements are for signing contracts, drug tests, etc after matching? Just matched allo but want to go on a week long cruise in 2 weeks. Would that coincide with any deadlines for contract signing and getting a drug test etc?
     
  6. gutonc

    gutonc No Meat, No Treat Administrator Physician PhD 10+ Year Member

    16,750
    8,424
    Mar 6, 2005
    A fibrotic stroma
    Unlikely.
     
  7. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Just dont do drugs on the cruise, and you should be fine. :)
     
  8. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    As a former AOA program in the ACGME this year, we took a gamble and bet highly on the DO community doing the allopathic match. We interviewed about 90% DOs. Even after we had submitted our rank list, we still do not know who if any of the candidates had already matched via the AOA match. We literally didn't know if half our match list was possibly unavailable. In the weeks leading up to the match, I was starting to get nervous and rethinking whether that strategy was a bright idea. Turns out it all worked out.

    Having found out we filled all our spots was a big sigh of relief!

    Congratulations to everyone that matched today, as well as everyone that matched last month!
     
  9. engineeredout

    engineeredout 7+ Year Member

    3,351
    426
    May 11, 2008
    Pennsylvania
    What a bunch of tools.
     
    Dr.TurkandJD likes this.
  10. rkmoto121

    rkmoto121 7+ Year Member

    170
    38
    Mar 31, 2010
    I think it would be super helpful for us third year DO students to get a list together of the previously AOA programs that are planning on going through the ACGME match for the 2018 cycle. I think it would help with choosing which places to rotate at and such. I have seen lists of which programs plan on going to 3 years but not on this. Although I'm not sure anybody has this information..
     
    The_Forever_Student likes this.
  11. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Go to the AOA website for EM. Any program listed as "initial accredidation" is eligible for the ACGME match. More may come this spring when the RRC meets next. As for which will be doing the ACGME match, I'd say any of the programs that switch to 3 years. The ones staying four years will likely stick mainly with the AOA match (because they don't have to compete with 200 other residencies for candidates) for the next two years. All the ones that switch to 3 years are only eligible for the ACGME match.
     
  12. HooliganSnail

    HooliganSnail 5+ Year Member

    640
    636
    Mar 13, 2012

    The one thing that is an upside about that absurd response, and total lack of understanding of simple statistics is that you didn't actually waste your time....

    Think about the poor residents who have to work under that dude
     
    racerwad, CajunMedic and Dr.TurkandJD like this.
  13. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    Heard a few more stories of PD's telling applicants that they are "VERY VERY highly ranked" and they didnt match to that program.

    2017 match seems weird, idk if this is the usual or if we are special. Especially with some programs going ACGME and some staying AOA, if this was a combined match, my ROL would have been so different.
     
    gamerEMdoc likes this.
  14. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    I cant wait for a combined match. Im sure we lost several people who wouldve been very competitively ranked on our list thanks to the seperate match system. Now those people may have still chosen to have gone elsewhere anyways, but at least they wouldve still been in play.
     
    racerwad and Dr.TurkandJD like this.
  15. Bill Brasky

    Bill Brasky 2+ Year Member

    260
    241
    May 2, 2013
    Speaking of which, I really need to stop reading the horror stories from yesterday or it's going to be a long, long year...
     
  16. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

    9
    3
    Feb 15, 2017
    They chose not to continue with their AOA because of the merger. They did not want to continue a program with the chance of them not being accredited and having to close with active residents. That's how I understood it.
     
  17. EM-SLG

    EM-SLG

    9
    3
    Feb 15, 2017
    I auditioned and I only got a 495. I'm not sure why they would say that.
     
  18. Makati2008

    Makati2008 Moderator 7+ Year Member

    1,591
    391
    Dec 18, 2008
    Problem is now they have 3 residents graduating from a program that existed for 4years and 1 class. They should find them homes at more established sites IMHO


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  19. Makati2008

    Makati2008 Moderator 7+ Year Member

    1,591
    391
    Dec 18, 2008
    Do you think it was due to folks not flocking to their program and they realized they should re-evaluate their expectations?


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
    racerwad likes this.
  20. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Probably. Issue is, for candidates and programs, sometimes its too late. If A candidate thinks they are better than they really are, and they hold out for top-tier rotations or interviews, and don't get any, sometimes the tier below them is already filled up. Same thing happens to programs.

    It's absolutely key for both programs and students to understand their own competitiveness if they want to be very successful through this process.
     
    Makati2008 likes this.
  21. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    But at the end of the day, regardless of how "top tier" of a student/resident you are or regardless if you went to an amazing or crappy program, you will be an attending EM physician and make a great living. Right? Or does it matter?


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  22. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Absolutely not. Sometimes the training is better at places you've never heard of. But no matter what, you graduate and you'll never have a problem finding a job.

    My point was, candidates over-valuing their application who shouldn't and holding out for "big name" programs hurt themselves because the other programs already fill their interviews. And programs who aren't big name programs that target too high of a level of candidate are going to miss out, because those high tier people are likely to go elsewhere.
     
  23. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    I understand completely! Just wanted to clarify that regardless of how big name program or how amazing your step 1 was, everyone who matched EM will have great jobs


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  24. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    Any purchase list prior to residency? I'm thinking leatherman shears, new bag... that's all I got.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
    snowbrdr88 likes this.
  25. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Leatherman raptor trauma shears. Love those. And buy the app palmEM if you have ios (not sure if its on android), its my favorite quick reference for just about anything in the ED, and its not expensive at all.
     
  26. WeeBay

    WeeBay

    48
    41
    Apr 19, 2016
    alcohol
     
  27. Sinfest

    Sinfest Slick 10+ Year Member

    1,025
    3
    Feb 24, 2008
    It's actually free right now!
     
  28. gutonc

    gutonc No Meat, No Treat Administrator Physician PhD 10+ Year Member

    16,750
    8,424
    Mar 6, 2005
    A fibrotic stroma
    Leatherman raptor trauma shears are free right now?
     
  29. Bill Brasky

    Bill Brasky 2+ Year Member

    260
    241
    May 2, 2013
    If you know the right guy. They fell off of a truck.
     
    Dr.TurkandJD and Apollyon like this.
  30. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Congratulations to everyone who matched today!
     
  31. gutonc

    gutonc No Meat, No Treat Administrator Physician PhD 10+ Year Member

    16,750
    8,424
    Mar 6, 2005
    A fibrotic stroma
    I left NYC for a number of reasons, this was one of them.
     
    bravotwozero likes this.
  32. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
  33. MelMcT2009

    MelMcT2009

    363
    182
    Jul 22, 2016
    Anyone know if OSU will be participating in the ACGME match next year??
     
  34. SevenSummitz

    SevenSummitz

    5
    1
    Jan 16, 2017
    Anyone know when the program list on opportunities will be updated to show the programs remaining in the AOA match?
     
  35. EM39

    EM39

    2
    0
    Mar 21, 2017
    Coming from a MD with firsthand knowledge of the program. They have not been around for 4 years. This is the first year of the program. They pulled out of the AOA match several weeks after ERAS opened and had several hundred applications at that time. The PD is very honest and does not sugar coat anything. This is something of value when looking for a program where the majority of PD's at other programs will lie to you about their interest. He did not want to jeopardize future residents careers if ACGME does not go through. He is well respected throughout the area and if you speak to anyone from UAMS they will reiterate the same high regards. EM is highly competitive so unlike the majority of you think it is not absurd to have high standards for applicants. The program will get ACGME approval. Faculty at Unity Health were all chiefs at their residencies. The majority came from UAMS. Faculty also includes a former UAMS PD.
     
  36. Dr.TurkandJD

    Dr.TurkandJD One Dream 5+ Year Member

    762
    89
    Jan 30, 2012
    US and A
    Someone from the program made this account purely to defend it? Thats cool...
     
    This Guy likes this.
  37. EM39

    EM39

    2
    0
    Mar 21, 2017
    Not with the program. I just have information about it. Apologies for correcting false statements.
     
  38. Makati2008

    Makati2008 Moderator 7+ Year Member

    1,591
    391
    Dec 18, 2008
    Sorry I should clarify. I was trying to relay that when these residents in the current class graduate, they would have been open for a total of four years (and only one active class) when/if the program closes. That makes networking, name recognition, etc nonexistent.

    Also, I think the COMLEX scores they are wanting are pretty unrealistic for a new program in Arkansas. They are higher than even the strongest osteopathic programs require to get a foot in the door and some of these are in much better locations. This program is unproven and should be more realistic in its expectations until it has the foundation to meet its demands.

    Also I wonder if the first residents there failed to match traditionally and scrambled in the AOA, they attempted the allopathic route and had to go to that program, or had red flags. For someone with so much insight there has to be a connection of some sort to the program.....


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    This Guy, Dr.TurkandJD and racerwad like this.
  39. TeamZissou

    TeamZissou jaferd 7+ Year Member

    1,402
    30
    Sep 29, 2008
    MI
    Let's be serious here.... using COMLEX scores for nearly anything is a mistake. Those tests are poorly written so are not even an accurate representation of knowledge. Let alone translating said knowledge into practice.
     
    racerwad likes this.
  40. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Except there are decent studies that show a linear correlation with USMLE scores, and it pretty much holds true. Rarely do I see USMLE scores that are far out of range from where you'd predict from the COMLEX. They actually correlate pretty well. While I agree that USMLE is likely a better written exam (based on what I've heard), it's still a fairly standardized test.
     
    Makati2008, Dr.TurkandJD and EMSCR like this.
  41. TeamZissou

    TeamZissou jaferd 7+ Year Member

    1,402
    30
    Sep 29, 2008
    MI
    Please name your studies. I believe you, but genuinely curious about the strength of correlation, design, variables, etc.

    My issue is with a new program using obscene scores (from a flawed test), as hard cutoffs.

    My program is also new, will have our first set of PGY-4's this July. We use the scores as a low baseline. From there we put in a tremendous amount of time and energy getting to know applicants personally. Applicants from OOS are put up in a hotel, pre-interview dinners where usually 1/2 current residents attend. Lunch with residents to meet any you haven't already. Etc

    IMHO there is no substitute for in-person interactions.
     
    The_Forever_Student and sb247 like this.
  42. rkmoto121

    rkmoto121 7+ Year Member

    170
    38
    Mar 31, 2010
    http://jgme.org/doi/pdf/10.4300/JGME-D-15-00246.1?code=gmed-site

    This is the study I have seen sited as showing a correlation (it was emailed to my class). I haven't read it myself though so idk anything about it.
     
  43. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    The one above is the most recent one I saw, I think I saw that last year when I looked into this more deeply. Here's a few others I found that have similar scatter plots.

    How to Predict USMLE Scores From COMLEX-USA Scores: A Guide for Directors of ACGME-Accredited Residency Programs | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association
    The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, September 2006, Vol. 106, 568-569.

    http://jgme.org/doi/pdf/10.4300/JGME-D-15-00246.1?code=gmed-site
    The Use of COMLEX-USA and USMLE for Residency Applicant Selection

    Relationship between COMLEX and USMLE scores among osteopathic medical students who take both examinations. - PubMed - NCBI
    Relationship between COMLEX and USMLE scores among osteopathic medical students who take both examinations.
     
    TeamZissou likes this.
  44. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    I think the key in comparing COMLEX to USMLE is that you can't compare percentiles. Someone that scores a 75 percentile on the COMLEX doesn't correlate to the 75 percentile on the USMLE. That difference is way off there.
     
  45. TeamZissou

    TeamZissou jaferd 7+ Year Member

    1,402
    30
    Sep 29, 2008
    MI
    Ah I've seen the formula from the 2006 paper before. Although when my friends and I tried it out on our scores it varied quite a bit from the actual scores. But nothing is perfect.

    I do find it interesting that the pass/fail correlation is so much lower...
    "The overall correlation was r(795)= 0.84 (P , .001)"
    "Pass/fail status on the 2 examinations was moderately correlated (u = 0.39, P , .01)."

    IMHO a 450 on COMLEX is the same as 550 and 600 is obviously better than a 400, but by how much?
     
  46. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Yeah i think the formula isnt validated and probably not accurate on a year to year basis. It's more that the studies show a linear correlation. I don't think that you could actually use that formula all that accurately more than 10 years later.
     
  47. Dr.Jekyll75

    Dr.Jekyll75 2+ Year Member

    1,003
    680
    Oct 27, 2014
    Murica
    Hey guys I'm gonna ask a very naive question so please bare with me. So my first rotation is EM and I'm slightly interested in it, but since I'm fresh off pre-clerkship I'm worried about looking like a moron and only knowing facts, and random stuff. Any recommendation how to look good on rotations for EM.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  48. MelMcT2009

    MelMcT2009

    363
    182
    Jul 22, 2016
    I'm a third year so take this with a grain of salt.

    I think knowing how to present well is a really important starting spot. Doesn't matter how much we know, if we can't present patients well the other stuff isn't going to matter. Presentations in EM are a bit different than presentations in other specialties. There are numerous articles and blog posts out there giving good insight to this.

    Know how to workup the most common chief complaints and be able to make a good differential. I'm starting by making sure I know CP, dyspnea, and abd pain well first. Then probably AMS, back pain, syncope. Definitely know the can't miss diagnoses for each. WikiEm app is da bomb for this stuff.

    That's where I'm starting in my studying! I've always been a firm believer in nailing down the fundamentals before going to grab at details (like specific dosages for example), so my answer may be more simplistic than what you were looking for.

    EM basic podcast is great for students. Emergency medicine for students is also good (and the episodes are shorter).

    Best of luck
     
    Dr.Jekyll75 and gamerEMdoc like this.
  49. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    I agree with what Mel said. Knowing how to present concisely yet effectively is half the battle. And having a solid ddx for the top 10 things or so you are going to see is great. Those two things will make you look stellar.

    Otherwise, I had posted this before in another thread, but dug it back up and will copy it here. It's my best advice as to the "little things" that will help you standout.

    1. Show up 10 min early to every shift. If you are late, even once, and someone writes about that on your SLOE (I see this several times a year reading applications), it looks AWEFUL!
    2. Don't be hard to schedule. If the chief residents make the students schedule, and you have a ton of requests and are a headache, I guarantee you that chief resident will tell EVERYONE about it
    3. At the beginning of the shift, find out who you are working with. Are you assigned to a resident or attending. Introduce yourself, and ask them how they'd like you to approach the shift. Some might want you picking up charts anytime. Others may prefer to hand you charts. Everyone has a different workflow.
    4. If you work with a resident, do anything you can to help them. I can't stress this enough. Residents probably have more say in boosting people up, and dropping people down, the rank list than some attendings. PD's don't want drama. They don't want to deal with residents who don't get along. And residency is tough. So if you can do little things that help the residents, I promise you, they will lobby for you.
    5. Don't ever lie. If someone asks you a question like "does the patient have any vomiting" and you didn't ask, say you didn't ask. Don't say "no" and hope you are right. Because if you get caught in one lie, noone will forget it.
    6. Be courteous and nice to the nurses and ancillary staff at all times.
    7. There is too much focus for students on seeing more patients. Its great if you can see 10-12 patients a shift, but if all you are doing is an H+P and never following up on anything, never rechecking anyone, and never updating the person you are working with, then you are basically creating more work.
    8. Understand that sometimes, you may get pushed aside. The ED can be busy and chaotic. Sometimes, an attending/resident may just not have time for you to pick up another case with them. They are often carrying a huge patient load. Don't be offended or take it personal. Offer to help out in anyway you can.
    9. Read and follow up on your cases. If you see something interesting, it would be crazy impressive to see the attending a week later and tell them "remember that patient with delirium the other night? I looked him up, and it turns out they found..."
    10. Don't just followup labs/xrays. Anyone can do that. Students shine when they followup on the patient's themselves. I promise you, if you go back and see a patient and catch something that wasn't caught before (patients do change over time), they will be VERY impressed
    11. Lastly, time yourself in the room. Strive to eventually be able to get out of the room in 10 min or less. Thats not going to be feasible when you start, but it eventually needs to happen. You'll learn what is essential to ask and what isn't. You're job isn't to do a medicine H+P. It's to do an ED note. Focus on high yield questions about the chief complaint, don't get tied down in the ROS and not flesh out why the patient is actually here. There will be patient's that make this hard to do, but getting out of the room faster is essential for you to impress residents and staff.
     
  50. emnotsureanymore

    emnotsureanymore

    10
    4
    Apr 7, 2017
    I was looking at some of the ACOEP "get to know" blogs and came across one about the dude from Vanderbilt. Why the F does ACOEP want us to get to know about a PD who will not consider DOs for his program. He doesn't want to get to know you... And why are DOs paying dues to ACOEP so they can give "outstanding speaker of the year" awards to people who wont consider DO applicants? You guys are unbelievable
     
  51. gamerEMdoc

    gamerEMdoc Associate PD; EM Clerkship Director Physician Faculty Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    913
    1,519
    Feb 10, 2016
    Interesting development with the merger I didn't see coming. If an AOA residency program doesn't gain ACGME accredidation, ACGME will allow the AOA to still accredit the program until the last resident graduates. So if you match AOA in 2018, and the program doesn't get accreditted by 2020, you can still finish out the last two years of your residency before the program shuts down. Programs won't be able to keep matching new classes, but at least they'll allow you to finish it out.

    Still don't think I'd want to match at a dying program, but still, at least people won't all find themselves without a program in 2020.

    New Agreement Addresses Residents' Needs in the Transition to the Single GME Accreditation System
     
    Dr.TurkandJD, Dr.Jekyll75 and sb247 like this.

Share This Page