Osteopathic EM programs

[EMwannabe1313]

Have you tried these? Open Spots for Away Rotations

I was not aware of this resource, thank you!

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[TheMountainsAreCalling10]

I was not aware of this resource, thank you!

You're welcome! I hope it all works out for you. I can't imagine adding couples matching to this madness.

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[gamerEMdoc]

I'm in the same boat. I am so worried I won't get two sloes one for aug and one for sept now. If I don't have 2 sloes in by Oct are my chances over?

You need one SLOE by Sept. It's common knowledge on the programs end that many candidates won't get a second sloe until sometime during interview season. I think its like 80% of PD's stated they send interviews out to people with one SLOE (because they realize a second one will come later).

 

[em20178]

hello gamerEMdoc... I was wondering how ACGME programs would look at one of your sloes being from AOA. I have two additional auditions at ACGME spots as well, one of which was a former AOA site.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

hello gamerEMdoc... I was wondering how ACGME programs would look at one of your sloes being from AOA. I have two additional auditions at ACGME spots as well, one of which was a former AOA site.

I think prestigious programs are going to want to see SLOES from prestigious programs. Otherwise, a SLOE is a SLOE. I cant imagine many community EM programs discriminating against SLOES from AOA or former AOA programs.

 

[CajunMedic]

Hi,

Has anyone heard of any programs with any open positions available for Aug or September? Even if they are sub-electives in ultrasound or pediatrics EM? I checked the CDEM website and have applied to a few there but getting extremely worried as I do not have any EM audition rotations set up before September. Any help would be really really appreciated! Thank you!!

If you're looking on the AOA side, Merit Health Wesley in Hattiesburg, MS had a couple for August as of Friday. I believe Freeman in Joplin, MO may have some as well.


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[em20178]

I think prestigious programs are going to want to see SLOES from prestigious programs. Otherwise, a SLOE is a SLOE. I cant imagine many community EM programs discriminating against SLOES from AOA or former AOA programs.

Appreciate it gamerEMdoc!

 

[em20178]

Had another question gamerEMdoc.. Understanding that Jul 6th is when the AOA match opens up, I've been scrambling to get letters of recommendation. Is it okay to get a letter of recommendation from where I did a third year EM rotation and then wait for SLOEs when I start auditions in July? Or do I have to rush to get them. I'm applying for both matches, but I plan to have SLOES for ACGME match.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I usually just recommend getting SLOEs from 4th year rotations. The SLOE is designed to compare fourth years to fourth years. In the AOA match, its understood students arent going to have a bunch of SLOEs when the ERAS opens in July. Most applicants don't even have 2 SLOEs until midway through interview season in the AOA match.

 

[viper89]

Had another question gamerEMdoc.. Understanding that Jul 6th is when the AOA match opens up, I've been scrambling to get letters of recommendation. Is it okay to get a letter of recommendation from where I did a third year EM rotation and then wait for SLOEs when I start auditions in July? Or do I have to rush to get them. I'm applying for both matches, but I plan to have SLOES for ACGME match.

ERAS states you can start applying on 07/06 to AOA programs, but also says that programs don't start receiving applications until 07/15. So is there reason to apply on any date before 07/15? I would assume this would buy you 9 extra days.

 

[Dannyboy676]

But don't the programs only start looking in September?


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[gamerEMdoc]

No one is deciding who to interview in July.

 

[em20178]

I see how you are right viper89... my biggest fear is programs look at the apps in the order they were received; that this, the situation is analogous to the VSAS apps where its first come first serve. Thanks.

ERAS states you can start applying on 07/06 to AOA programs, but also says that programs don't start receiving applications until 07/15. So is there reason to apply on any date before 07/15? I would assume this would buy you 9 extra days.

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[Makati2008]

Coming from a MD with firsthand knowledge of the program. They have not been around for 4 years. This is the first year of the program. They pulled out of the AOA match several weeks after ERAS opened and had several hundred applications at that time. The PD is very honest and does not sugar coat anything. This is something of value when looking for a program where the majority of PD's at other programs will lie to you about their interest. He did not want to jeopardize future residents careers if ACGME does not go through. He is well respected throughout the area and if you speak to anyone from UAMS they will reiterate the same high regards. EM is highly competitive so unlike the majority of you think it is not absurd to have high standards for applicants. The program will get ACGME approval. Faculty at Unity Health were all chiefs at their residencies. The majority came from UAMS. Faculty also includes a former UAMS PD.

Received information from a friend in the area that this program is due to completely shut down. I truly hope this can be corrected(or my friend misspoke) for the initial class sake.



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[CajunMedic]

Received information from a friend in the area that this program is due to completely shut down. I truly hope this can be corrected(or my friend misspoke) for the initial class sake.



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One of my classmates is auditioning there sometime this fall. They've been told that they will not be in the AOA match, only in ACGME if they get approval, if not, they will only take students that rotated there in the AOA Scramble.

 

[Makati2008]

One of my classmates is auditioning there sometime this fall. They've been told that they will not be in the AOA match, only in ACGME if they get approval, if not, they will only take students that rotated there in the AOA Scramble.

So if they don't get approval don't they close in 2020? It honestly seems like it could be a good program. Too much inpatient/outpatient stuff but a good program nonetheless.


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[Siggy]

So if they don't get approval don't they close in 2020? It honestly seems like it could be a good program. Too much inpatient/outpatient stuff but a good program nonetheless.


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There's an agreement to allow programs to continue past 2020 if they don't get accredited so that their current residents can graduate. However they won't be able to take new residents.

 

[Dannyboy676]

There's an agreement to allow programs to continue past 2020 if they don't get accredited so that their current residents can graduate. However they won't be able to take new residents.

What program is this?


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[Siggy]

What program is this?


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Umm... all of them.

 

[Dannyboy676]

Umm... all of them.

I meant the one not transitioning ...


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[Siggy]

I meant the one not transitioning ...


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The point is, if you match into an AOA residency that ultimately fails to get ACGME accreditation, you are still protected assuming that the hospital C-suite actually cares a little about their residents.

 

[CajunMedic]

What program is this?


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Unity Health in Searcy, AR

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Does anyone have a list of ACGME and AOA requirements for EM residents? Like number of pts, which procedures and how much, which, US requirements, etc. please and thank you


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[DO2016EM]

Does anyone have a list of ACGME and AOA requirements for EM residents? Like number of pts, which procedures and how much, which, US requirements, etc. please and thank you


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Pretty similar procedure numbers except for ultrasound. ACGME requires at least 150 scans, AOA is 40.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Pretty similar procedure numbers except for ultrasound. ACGME requires at least 150 scans, AOA is 40.

But where is the list of all the procedures and numbers?

 

[gutonc]

But where is the list of all the procedures and numbers?

On the intarwebz.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

On the intarwebz.

thanks for the help... NOT

 

[gutonc]

thanks for the help... NOT

Sorry...does your intarwebz not have Teh Googelz?

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Sorry...does your intarwebz not have Teh Googelz?

Ive looked EVERYWHERE and cannot find it.

 

[gutonc]

Ive looked EVERYWHERE and cannot find it.

Why does it matter?

 

[Apollyon]

Ive looked EVERYWHERE and cannot find it.

Are you an EM resident? Get it from your PD. If you are not, as said above - why does it matter? Anything you do as a student does not count.

 

[Apollyon]

Ive looked EVERYWHERE and cannot find it.

No, now you're either lying or lazy. I put "EM resident procedure numbers" into Google, and found it in less than 30 seconds. This is a GREAT way to get no one to help you.

(And it is ACGME AND AOA that I found, in the same document.)

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Oh my god. What is wrong with you people? Instead of getting on your soap box you could either A-help and send a link or B- shut up. Classic SDN bs. I thought we didn't have it in the EM thread


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[PianoMedic]

Oh my god. What is wrong with you people? Instead of getting on your soap box you could either A-help and send a link or B- shut up. Classic SDN bs. I thought we didn't have it in the EM thread


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http://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/2013 AA/2013 Day Two/Residency Mechanics.pdf

Page 5

 

[Buckeye1992]

Looks to be about 34 programs in the 2018 aoa match from what I can see on ERAS.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Well, I'm confused.

This banner at the top of the ERAS dashboard:

Attention Osteopathic Medical Applicants: AOA-accredited programs can be found under the "DO" filter selection on the Search Programs page along with their AOA Program ID. As AOA-accredited programs receive ACGME accreditation through the single graduate medical education accreditation system, they will receive their new ACGME program ID and will be listed under the "MD" filter selection on the Search Programs page. Programs that have both AOA and ACGME IDs and are participating in ERAS will be listed under both the "MD" and "DO" sections.

There are definitely some that have switched to 3 years that are still in the DO section (as well as the MD section) and are listed as participating in both the AOA and ACGME match on the participation list. Are the 3 year programs still able to participate in the AOA match again this year after all?

 

[rkmoto121]

Well, I'm confused.

This banner at the top of the ERAS dashboard:


There are definitely some that have switched to 3 years that are still in the DO section (as well as the MD section) and are listed as participating in both the AOA and ACGME match on the participation list. Are the 3 year programs still able to participate in the AOA match again this year after all?

Yeah I agree this is confusing. I see a couple programs in the AOA list that say "participating" but they have received ACGME accreditation as 3 year programs and told me via email that they are only doing the ACGME match...

 

[Buckeye1992]

Which programs are you talking about?

 

[rkmoto121]

Which programs are you talking about?

Henry Ford Macomb and Henry Ford Wyandotte have both received 3 year ACGME accreditation and are both listed under the MD + DO sections of ERAS. I'm sure there are others but those are just the only two I know of off the top of my head.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Mclaren Oakland sent me an email that the DO setting will NOT be used and to apply under the MD one. Presumably this is true for all of the three year programs, and I just wasted about $30, but at least we know.


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[gamerEMdoc]

Here's what I presume the problem is. Programs that go 4 to 3 still have residents in the 4 year AOA track. So they cant "give up" their AOA accredidation right away. We've graduated two ACGME accreditted classes now, and wont give up our AOA status until our last 4th year class graduates this year.

Because these programs are duelly accreditted, they may show up on eras for both. But since all the new classes are in the three year acgme track, they only actually can match in the acgme match.

Confusing, and Im sure very frustrating for those applying to the AOA match. I know last year during interview season we had interview candidates that didnt realize we were not in the AOA match. You'd think ERAS would have a way to fix this, but my guess is, they arent going to undergo a software overhaul for a problem that only exists for the next 2 years.

 

[TheMountainsAreCalling10]

Mclaren Oakland sent me an email that the DO setting will NOT be used and to apply under the MD one. Presumably this is true for all of the three year programs, and I just wasted about $30, but at least we know.


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yeah that is some nonsense. ERAS should at least reimburse us or put it towards the later application. We already shell out of thousands of dollars in this process.

 

[rkmoto121]

So Henry Ford Macomb says that they are participating in both matches and taking about half from each match. And they are ACGME accredited as a 3 year program so I really don't get how this works....

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Last year the AOA gave special exceptions to new ACGME programs to allow them to participate in the AOA match one last year, even though they were 3 year ACGME programs. I think the AOA probably freaked out a bit when they saw how many programs they were going to lose from their match so early in the process, so they bent the rules and allowed 3 year programs to still match AOA. Otherwise, the ACGME programs would just drop their AOA accredidation entirely, because if they can't participate in the match, what's the point of paying to maintain AOA accredidation from the programs standpoint. My guess is that's how Henry Ford Macomb is doing it this year, they got some exemption from the AOA, but I don't know that for a fact.

 

[StartedFromBottomNowWeEM]

You need one SLOE by Sept. It's common knowledge on the programs end that many candidates won't get a second sloe until sometime during interview season. I think its like 80% of PD's stated they send interviews out to people with one SLOE (because they realize a second one will come later).

Hey GamerEMdoc,

DO student here! Have been lurking these forums for a very long time now. I know I'm not the first to say how much I appreciate how much effort you put into your words of advice.
Regarding the above post, I and many of my colleagues from my school may have some issues. We did not begin OMS-IV until this month. Many, if not all of us interested in EM, are having or have had their first EM rotation now at a home ED that is likely unrelated to a program. I, myself, have had one rotation in my third year, and am now doing an EM subspecialty rotation. I've been informed that there is a subspecialty SLOE, but that this would not necessarily be sufficient for a normal EM SLOE.
I had applied for several (but perhaps not enough) programs for a rotation next month, but currently am unassigned (issues beyond my control). I'm awaiting a response from another program but don't have high hopes. The month three months after, though, I do have a rotation at programs that I'll be trying to get SLOEs from.

Any suggestions? <3<3

 

[dock10]

Anybody have any interviews go out yet?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hey GamerEMdoc,

DO student here! Have been lurking these forums for a very long time now. I know I'm not the first to say how much I appreciate how much effort you put into your words of advice.
Regarding the above post, I and many of my colleagues from my school may have some issues. We did not begin OMS-IV until this month. Many, if not all of us interested in EM, are having or have had their first EM rotation now at a home ED that is likely unrelated to a program. I, myself, have had one rotation in my third year, and am now doing an EM subspecialty rotation. I've been informed that there is a subspecialty SLOE, but that this would not necessarily be sufficient for a normal EM SLOE.
I had applied for several (but perhaps not enough) programs for a rotation next month, but currently am unassigned (issues beyond my control). I'm awaiting a response from another program but don't have high hopes. The month three months after, though, I do have a rotation at programs that I'll be trying to get SLOEs from.

Any suggestions? <3<3

Well, you do what you can do at this point. Get the subspecialty SLOE. Maybe get a letter of recommendation from the non-residency program from your third year. Get a SLOE from your first EM rotation, whenever you can get it. I'm not sure what else you can do unfortunately, and you might be behind the 8 ball unfortunately.

No doubt some DO schools put their students at a disadvantage. While I'm sure there is a DO bias at some University allopathic places, I don't think that's what makes DO's disadvantaged most times in the match most of the time. Its stuff like this. Starting fourth year late, no home academic EM rotation, having them rotate at an ED thats not a residency... it's all on the student to go above and beyond to secure their own rotations. It's absolutely maddening to me. that people pay tuition to an institution, and they aren't providing a fair opportunity to compete.

 

[CajunMedic]

Anybody have any interviews go out yet?

Merit Health Wesley in Hattiesburg, MS interviewed us that auditioned in July. But they want us to come back for a second look after the new PD gets in in September.

 

[em20178]

Hello gamerEMdoc... might be a question that might vary from program to program... but how does a audition EM program decide if you get a P, HP or H? I am asking because I've never been graded with that system... its always been letter system. Just finished my first EM audition rotation. I didn't have a shift with the CD, PD or aPD. So would they simply average the # of top 1/3rds, middle 1/3rds, and bottom 1/3rds in each SLOE category of each of my evalulators? We had no final exams. And is a attending evaluation weighted greater than a resident evaluation?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hello gamerEMdoc... might be a question that might vary from program to program... but how does a audition EM program decide if you get a P, HP or H? I am asking because I've never been graded with that system... its always been letter system. Just finished my first EM audition rotation. I didn't have a shift with the CD, PD or aPD. So would they simply average the # of top 1/3rds, middle 1/3rds, and bottom 1/3rds in each SLOE category of each of my evalulators? We had no final exams. And is a attending evaluation weighted greater than a resident evaluation?

Totally going to depend on the place you rotate. Most allopathic schools grade on the H, HP, P system. AOA schools are highly variable with their grading systems. Unfortunately no grading scale is perfect, and even if everyone was on the honors, HP, pass system, how each rotation determines to get out those grades going to be variable. I don't think you can answer your above questions, because every different program is going to decide how they weigh post shift evaluations (if they do them), whether or not they do an exam at the end, etc. This is why put on a lot of weight into the overall grade on an EM rotation. I think the sloe rank is a better marker, because its a standardized ranking. Sure it still subjective, but overall I think its the best marker of student performance, the question is simple, where are you anticipating ranking this student.