Osteopathic EM programs

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The AOA should be ashamed of the programs they let open in light of this merger without vetting them to meet the bare minimum allopathic requirements or at the least make other aoa programs absorb them if they closed.


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DO3 said:
And another one has kindly suggested to their residents to start looking for other opportunities.
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Now that sucks. My IM program is closing due to the merger, but they've made the commitment to phase out and graduate all of the residents currently in the program.
 
Siggy said:
However, there's a lot of "intents to apply" and status "not available" still up.
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Not sure how accurate the AOA pages are, but hopefully the information is just dated. I'd be four sorts of livid if I matched to an EM slot that ended up being a glorified TRI.
 
GimpGenius said:
Not sure how accurate the AOA pages are, but hopefully the information is just dated. I'd be four sorts of livid if I matched to an EM slot that ended up being a glorified TRI.
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I think it depends. If it ends up like New River Valley where you just get folded into a 3 year EM program starting your second year, then there's nothing really lost in the process (outside of being forced to move). If you get into a program that ends up closing, then that's just a whole bunch of suck... especially since I'm not sure if an ACGME program would be allowed to give credit for time in an AOA program.
 
What happens to the funding that these places had? Also, which programs are planning on moving to 3 years?
 
Buckeye1992 said:
What happens to the funding that these places had? Also, which programs are planning on moving to 3 years?
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I was recently told by a PD that most, if not all, AOA EM programs will change to 3 year programs as they become ACGME accredited.
 
TheOther said:
I was recently told by a PD that most, if not all, AOA EM programs will change to 3 year programs as they become ACGME accredited.
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Yep. Most will go to 3 years. In order to stay four years under the ACGME, you have to provide significant justification for the 4th year (usually research) which most AOA programs aren't going to be able to provide to justify the fourth year. Most will be 3.
 
I know the AOA opportunities page isn't up to date on all programs, but if we ask programs directly should they have a good idea at this point of their plans or are there still many that are undecided?
 
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bandgrl said:
I know the AOA opportunities page isn't up to date on all programs, but if we ask programs directly should they have a good idea at this point of their plans or are there still many that are undecided?
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Absolutely. If a program doesn't have a plan in place for this already, I'd be very wary about interest there. Good institutions don't Wait until the last second to develop a plan.
 
ACGME just let us know we got accredidation passed by the RRC. Pretty easy process on our end. Turns out, we were pretty much meeting all their regulations anyways. Hope the other EM programs faired just as well. So excited this is all over and we can move toward the future.
 
This may have already been addressed, but just to make sure I have the correct understanding, if a program intends to apply for osteopathic recognition under the ACGME this means that the program intends to stay a 4 year program, correct? Still trying to sort out all these details as best possible at this point.
 
bandgrl said:
This may have already been addressed, but just to make sure I have the correct understanding, if a program intends to apply for osteopathic recognition under the ACGME this means that the program intends to stay a 4 year program, correct? Still trying to sort out all these details as best possible at this point.
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Nope. Osteopathic recognition has nothing to do with 4 vs 3 years. Most will switch to 3 years. 4 year programs have to justify the 4th year, mainly because of heavy research (they tend to be in big centers like Penn, Hopkins, etc) for the ACGME to approve the 4th year. The rest are 3's, and so I'd imaging almost all will convert to a 3 year program. Osteopathic recognition requires a bunch of logging and headaches that I can't see any program applying for unless they significantly reduce the requirements.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Nope. Osteopathic recognition has nothing to do with 4 vs 3 years. Most will switch to 3 years. 4 year programs have to justify the 4th year, mainly because of heavy research (they tend to be in big centers like Penn, Hopkins, etc) for the ACGME to approve the 4th year. The rest are 3's, and so I'd imaging almost all will convert to a 3 year program. Osteopathic recognition requires a bunch of logging and headaches that I can't see any program applying for unless they significantly reduce the requirements.
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Kind of telling how badly the AOA leadership overestimated the interest programs would have in osteopathic recognition. I suspect they really do think everyone is as concerned with 'distinctiveness' as they are.
 
Congratulations gamerEMdoc. I know only 6 programs have been approved for initial accreditation. Just so you guys know you can keep up to date on who has applied and who has achieved what status on the ACGME website https://apps.acgme.org/ads/public/ . gemerEMdoc, I was wondering if you knew anything about the match process for approved programs. Dr. Solomon, the PD from Henry Ford Wyandotte, gave a lecture about the whole process at the ACOEP syudent symposium yesterday. He mentioned that once a programs gets initial accreditation status they are then under the ACGME blanket and must only undergo the ACGME match. However, I have heard from other approved programs that they are still planning to try and take from both matches this upcoming season. Do you have any insight on this?
 
Also I heard that Lakeland in Michigan is staying 4 years because they plan on having specialty tracks for the residents. EMS, admin and one or two more I cant remember.
 
FirefighterDoc said:
Congratulations gamerEMdoc. I know only 6 programs have been approved for initial accreditation. Just so you guys know you can keep up to date on who has applied and who has achieved what status on the ACGME website https://apps.acgme.org/ads/public/ . gemerEMdoc, I was wondering if you knew anything about the match process for approved programs. Dr. Solomon, the PD from Henry Ford Wyandotte, gave a lecture about the whole process at the ACOEP syudent symposium yesterday. He mentioned that once a programs gets initial accreditation status they are then under the ACGME blanket and must only undergo the ACGME match. However, I have heard from other approved programs that they are still planning to try and take from both matches this upcoming season. Do you have any insight on this?
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If they are going 3 years, they have to match only through the ACGME match. If 4 years, I wouldn't see why they couldn't match in both, similar to any other dually accredited 4 year program (similar to Lehigh Valley, which has had a 4 year AOA and ACGME approved residency for years and participates in both matches). I personally think going the four year route is suicide for a community EM program when it comes to the match, but that's my personal opinion. There are great 4 year programs out there, but places like Penn and Hopkins can get people to go to them because of prestigious names; very few candidates will be willing to opt to go to a four year community hospital program when there are so many 3 year options available.

That being said, we're still in a bit of an "up in the air" status regarding program length. ACGME let us know that we've been accreditted, but listed us as a four year program on their website. We applied for 3 years, and sent them a 3 year curriculum, so I'm not sure why we'd be listed as four. Maybe because we have 3 classes who have to finish the four year tract they matched into via the AOA, thats the only thing I can explain it. Hopefully they'll clarify this in their report to us, as we definitely want to start this years intern class on a 3 year track. I really don't want them to list us as 4 years when we have no intention of being 4 years for any of our future classes, because I think that will turn off potential applicants. It should all work itself out once we get their report in the next 6 weeks or so. Nothing happens quickly unfortunately.

Overall, we're super excited to be one of the first programs approved. We were the first to get our site visit in EM initially and we've been pretty aggressive with the whole transition, and are excited to finally move on. We plan on continuing to be a DO friendly ACGME program, as we expect that's where the vast majority of our applicants will come from. As long as the PD and me are around (20 years or more hopefully), I don't anticipate ever "requiring" a DO student to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX boards. I hope other programs will do the same. Its crazy to me to expect osteopathic medical students to pay for COMLEX 1+2, USMLE 1+2, and the CE exam all over 2 years. If other programs will turn away great candidates because of the initials after their name, we'll happily snatch them up!
 
gamerEMdoc said:
If they are going 3 years, they have to match only through the ACGME match. If 4 years, I wouldn't see why they couldn't match in both, similar to any other dually accredited 4 year program (similar to Lehigh Valley, which has had a 4 year AOA and ACGME approved residency for years and participates in both matches). I personally think going the four year route is suicide for a community EM program when it comes to the match, but that's my personal opinion. There are great 4 year programs out there, but places like Penn and Hopkins can get people to go to them because of prestigious names; very few candidates will be willing to opt to go to a four year community hospital program when there are so many 3 year options available.

That being said, we're still in a bit of an "up in the air" status regarding program length. ACGME let us know that we've been accreditted, but listed us as a four year program on their website. We applied for 3 years, and sent them a 3 year curriculum, so I'm not sure why we'd be listed as four. Maybe because we have 3 classes who have to finish the four year tract they matched into via the AOA, thats the only thing I can explain it. Hopefully they'll clarify this in their report to us, as we definitely want to start this years intern class on a 3 year track. I really don't want them to list us as 4 years when we have no intention of being 4 years for any of our future classes, because I think that will turn off potential applicants. It should all work itself out once we get their report in the next 6 weeks or so. Nothing happens quickly unfortunately.

Overall, we're super excited to be one of the first programs approved. We were the first to get our site visit in EM initially and we've been pretty aggressive with the whole transition, and are excited to finally move on. We plan on continuing to be a DO friendly ACGME program, as we expect that's where the vast majority of our applicants will come from. As long as the PD and me are around (20 years or more hopefully), I don't anticipate ever "requiring" a DO student to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX boards. I hope other programs will do the same. Its crazy to me to expect osteopathic medical students to pay for COMLEX 1+2, USMLE 1+2, and the CE exam all over 2 years. If other programs will turn away great candidates because of the initials after their name, we'll happily snatch them up!
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Hey Gamer, care to share what residency program this is? You may PM me for confidentiality purposes.
 
Conemaugh Hospital in Johnstown, PA

RRC did contact us to verify we'll be 3 years. There was some mix up with them posting it in their database when they listed us as four. They told us they'd change it. Thank goodness. We've officially crossed over to the ACGME side. Our graduating residents this year are eligible for both EM boards now, should any of them choose to take the ABEM exam going forward.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Conemaugh Hospital in Johnstown, PA

RRC did contact us to verify we'll be 3 years. There was some mix up with them posting it in their database when they listed us as four. They told us they'd change it. Thank goodness. We've officially crossed over to the ACGME side. Our graduating residents this year are eligible for both EM boards now, should any of them choose to take the ABEM exam going forward.
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Would there still be AOA match? I am applying only AOA


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Are the majority of AOA EM programs at level I trauma centers? or are they mostly level II or level III community programs? What about Henry Ford Wyandotte? Is that Level I? Thanks!
 
IH8ColdWeath3r said:
Are the majority of AOA EM programs at level I trauma centers? or are they mostly level II or level III community programs? What about Henry Ford Wyandotte? Is that Level I? Thanks!
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Most are not level I's. A handful are. Lehigh Valley, Conemaugh, CAMC (I think?) are to name a few. If you're not at a level 1 you will have your trauma rotations at a level I hospital that the program has an association with, which can be a negative or a positive and I'm not going to start that debate again.


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Hey all, is there a list of EM programs that are not wroth applying to? I have wanted to do EM since before med school and will be applying AOA and am planning on applying to basically every program (my strategy with med school) have to get in somewhere. My 1st choice is my only choice, as far as 2nd, 3rd, ect, I don't really care if its not my first. Is there a list of programs closing or that won't get accredited? Any programs not worth applying too?
 
IH8ColdWeath3r said:
Are the majority of AOA EM programs at level I trauma centers? or are they mostly level II or level III community programs? What about Henry Ford Wyandotte? Is that Level I? Thanks!
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The majority of the AOA programs are NOT trauma centers, but simply farm their residents out to the nearest trauma centers for their trauma rotation, which is a reason why I skipped the AOA match entirely.


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bravotwozero said:
The majority of the AOA programs are NOT trauma centers, but simply farm their residents out to the nearest trauma centers for their trauma rotation, which is a reason why I skipped the AOA match entirely.


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Good to know! Yeah I am only applying ACGME as well. Ended up only setting up auditions at ACGME programs. What you mentioned, plus the fact that some of the programs may be closing due to accreditation, gives me enough pause to forgo the AOA match, as risky as that may be.
 
Dr.TurkandJD said:
Hey all, is there a list of EM programs that are not wroth applying to? I have wanted to do EM since before med school and will be applying AOA and am planning on applying to basically every program (my strategy with med school) have to get in somewhere. My 1st choice is my only choice, as far as 2nd, 3rd, ect, I don't really care if its not my first. Is there a list of programs closing or that won't get accredited? Any programs not worth applying too?
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As of now, I think there are 50-ish AOA EM programs (a couple shut down this past cycle, and a few have ACGME accreditation now... so I wouldn't count them as "AOA" WRT your question). A solid chunk of those won't even consider you without an audition rotation. Others have geographic preferences (States want to retain their students), etc. It certainly seems to be more of a "who do you know" game than the ACGME side, but n=1 and I didn't apply to all programs.

Feel free to PM if you have questions about specific programs.
 
Anyone out there rotate at Beaumont Hospital in Trenton? I'm looking for info on how the rotation went and where people stayed during their rotation since housing isn't offered. I'm not from the area, so if I end up looking into something like airbnb for housing in surrounding areas, what are some reasonable communities to commute from distance wise? Thanks!
 
bandgrl said:
Anyone out there rotate at Beaumont Hospital in Trenton? I'm looking for info on how the rotation went and where people stayed during their rotation since housing isn't offered. I'm not from the area, so if I end up looking into something like airbnb for housing in surrounding areas, what are some reasonable communities to commute from distance wise? Thanks!
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I rotated there last month. I stayed in Bloomfield Hills with my girlfriend's aunt. If you are auditioning they put you on 5 12-hour shifts at Dearborn which was 25 minutes away from Bloomfield and then 6 10-hr shifts at Trenton which was about 45-50 min hike.
 
Dr.TurkandJD said:
Hey all, is there a list of EM programs that are not wroth applying to? I have wanted to do EM since before med school and will be applying AOA and am planning on applying to basically every program (my strategy with med school) have to get in somewhere. My 1st choice is my only choice, as far as 2nd, 3rd, ect, I don't really care if its not my first. Is there a list of programs closing or that won't get accredited? Any programs not worth applying too?
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Why are you not considering ACGME programs?

When I compared AOA and ACGME programs, it was a no-brainer to skip the AOA match. I give the same advice to others; unless they have a very specific region they hope to get to, are in the absolute basement in terms of USMLE scores, or a particular AOA program is literally perfect, I suggest skipping the AOA match. There are simply more programs with more opportunities in more places on the ACGME side. A plus perhaps only relevant to me, no more OMM.

As the merger approaches, the quality of AOA programs will continue to rise, with weaker programs being culled out.

As others have pointed out, the majority of AOA programs are at smaller community places. Also, as others have pointed out, this is not the definition of poor training. There are compromises that go both ways between being at a small community place vs "largest name brand institution in the region medical center" and the best thing you can do is determine what you're looking for and how you'll address any of the inevitable gaps in your training.
 
racerwad said:
Why are you not considering ACGME programs?

When I compared AOA and ACGME programs, it was a no-brainer to skip the AOA match. I give the same advice to others; unless they have a very specific region they hope to get to, are in the absolute basement in terms of USMLE scores, or a particular AOA program is literally perfect, I suggest skipping the AOA match. There are simply more programs with more opportunities in more places on the ACGME side. A plus perhaps only relevant to me, no more OMM.

As the merger approaches, the quality of AOA programs will continue to rise, with weaker programs being culled out.

As others have pointed out, the majority of AOA programs are at smaller community places. Also, as others have pointed out, this is not the definition of poor training. There are compromises that go both ways between being at a small community place vs "largest name brand institution in the region medical center" and the best thing you can do is determine what you're looking for and how you'll address any of the inevitable gaps in your training.
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****ty <500 Step 1 score and my #1 choice is an AOA program.
 
bandgrl said:
Anyone out there rotate at Beaumont Hospital in Trenton? I'm looking for info on how the rotation went and where people stayed during their rotation since housing isn't offered. I'm not from the area, so if I end up looking into something like airbnb for housing in surrounding areas, what are some reasonable communities to commute from distance wise? Thanks!
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Im there in October! Let me know where you find housing please, I'm in the same boat.

Edit: Im there in September, this stupid COMLEX got me all twisted.
 
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ladybug1552 said:
I will also be there in October and am at a loss for housing-the nearest air bnb's are like 45 minutes away! :/
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There is really nothing around the Trenton area and if you did find an AIRBNB it may be a sketchy area. Stick to the nicer areas 45 minutes away. Its not a bad drive and there is more to do.
 
Dr.TurkandJD said:
****ty <500 Step 1 score and my #1 choice is an AOA program.
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If you mean a COMLEX <500, that doesn't put you out of contention w/ ACGME programs. They have no real idea of working w/ COMLEX scores and as long as your USMLE is good, you are fine, but given the fact that your #1 program is AOA, that is a better reason for skipping the ACGME match.
 
racerwad said:
If you mean a COMLEX <500, that doesn't put you out of contention w/ ACGME programs. They have no real idea of working w/ COMLEX scores and as long as your USMLE is good, you are fine, but given the fact that your #1 program is AOA, that is a better reason for skipping the ACGME match.
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I never took the USMLE, I only took a COM and did horrible. I don't think I have a chance on acgme side. I'm not wrong, right?


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@gamerEMdoc, can you comment on the likely scenario for the programs out there right now that have not obtained initial accreditation? I’m in a situation where I feel competitive for the ACGME match but have a lot of love for several of the AOA programs, including some that have already obtained initial accreditation and some that have not. Like a lot of applicants, I’m most concerned with getting good training.

I feel like the merger has, unintentionally, created a type of very superficial dichotomy: programs that 100% have met the requirements of the ACGME (because they’re now accredited) and those who haven’t or don’t intend to. What I’m most concerned with are those that haven’t yet or intend to. Is there another opportunity for RRC review this year? Should we assume that if a program has not yet applied that they will be unlikely to receive ACGME accreditation by the time rank list are due in 2017?

I suppose our application year will be unique because just enough of the AOA programs have pulled away to the 3-year ACGME pathway to make the calculus change. If we decide to participate in the AOA match, we’ll now be forced to do so with less overall available programs. I think an argument could also be made that those programs that transitioned early were able to do so as a direct reflection of their own priorities, standards, or quality. Whether this is fair or not is a different story.

Also, thank you for your participation in this thread. Your contributions have been helpful.
 
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Dr.TurkandJD said:
I never took the USMLE, I only took a COM and did horrible. I don't think I have a chance on acgme side. I'm not wrong, right?


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Yeah, @Makati2008 is not wrong. It is hard for a good USMLE score to make up for a poor COMLEX if it doesn't exist.
 
racerwad said:
Yeah, @Makati2008 is not wrong. It is hard for a good USMLE score to make up for a poor COMLEX if it doesn't exist.
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The other problem is where is his number one? The higher tier AOA programs will screen him out(i.e. Doctors )


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Makati2008 said:
The other problem is where is his number one? The higher tier AOA programs will screen him out(i.e. Doctors )


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Right again...

Improvement on Level 2, doing great on auditions, and networking (eg - ACOEP's residency fair) will all help.
 
Makati2008 said:
The other problem is where is his number one? The higher tier AOA programs will screen him out(i.e. Doctors )


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No it won't if you audition. Programs like Doctor's surprisingly take students with sub-500 scores if they play the game right. Anecdotal sure, but every year they have someone with scores in the 400's.
 
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