Osteopathic General Surgery Residencies

[anxiousnadd]

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on the quality of some of the osteopathic GS residencies. I'm considering applying to both osteo and allo programs, but I've come to realize that finding information about the osteo programs has been pretty difficult.

Any info on on these prgorams, and especially, Arrowhead and the New York programs would be appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Kuba]

bump... noone? st. barnabas? any D.O.'s here?

 

[Ferrismonk]

I don't know much about the east side programs, but you might want to at least start with the AOA website:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

You can look into the official data the programs provide the AOA there. I hope this helps!

 

[GregsAnatomy]

There are lots of threads on this topic. In short, there are a some quality DO surgery residencies out there if you do some looking. Doing an away rotation is highly recommended if not mandatory to match to most of these programs. Let me know if you have any specific questions I can answer.

 

[Dissonance]

Any specific range of COMLEX scores needed for osteo gen surg?

 

[LovelyRita]

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on the quality of some of the osteopathic GS residencies.

Strong program, good rotations for specialties and good bread and butter at our home hospital. We have didactics weekly and there's always room for improvement. If I had to do it again I'd choose this program.

I'm considering applying to both osteo and allo programs, but I've come to realize that finding information about the osteo programs has been pretty difficult.

I'm a proponent of choosing one or the other due to the earlier DO match which if you match your "time spent" exploring MD programs is wasted... not to mention it's expensive to do both. You should apply widely at lots of programs, don't limit yourself to a handful. And for the DO programs, face-time is key.

 

[pillowsleeper]

For the residents.

Did you rotate at the place where you ended up getting your residency?
How about your colleagues?

I don't have that many G. surg rotations set up. Most of the places I sent applications didn't respond, and I even tried to follow up. I felt like a lot of places had to fill up their students first; therefore, if you were an outsider........no dice.

 

[LovelyRita]

For the residents.

Did you rotate at the place where you ended up getting your residency?
How about your colleagues?

I don't have that many G. surg rotations set up. Most of the places I sent applications didn't respond, and I even tried to follow up. I felt like a lot of places had to fill up their students first; therefore, if you were an outsider........no dice.

Yes and no. I did not "audition" at my place...ended up doing a TRI year there and landed a spot there and somewhere else that had an opening. Openings do occur due to unfilled match spots, and residents leaving/getting fired. Face time is very helpful though. What happens is, relationships develop with the face time and there's probably a 1 in 10 chance or so that that relationship will be broken by the applicant pursuing another place or the program ranking another applicant highly.

Regardless, you have to stay on top of the game. Keep in contact with these programs to see if you can go visit, even if it's just for a week or two. People's plans change, and the staff in the med ed office are not going to take the time to call you. You have to call them, email them a like once a week or so.

 

[funshi baba]

I am not sure i would have the time to rotate thru any DO programs am looking at. Would it be a good idea to just visit the place for a day or two?
Also just got my comlex 2 back and its bad. I got 598 on step 1 and 445 on step 2, how bad is this going to work against my chances in combo with not doing an audition rotation at a said program?

thanks

 

[Krazykritter]

Funshi,

I think you are going to have an uphill battle. I'm not quite understanding why you 'won't have the time to rotate thru ANY DO program you are looking at'?? What else are you doing during your fourth year?

If you are looking at MD programs, I think you may need to reconsider unless you absolutely rocked USMLE Step I. If you think you are going to have problems getting interviews at DO programs, you are going to hurting for them at allopathic institutions.

Most DO programs will at least give you the opportunity to outshine average board scores w/ an elective. I don't see how spending a day or two at a program would be an advantage at all. I would say that you are shooting yourself in the foot by not doing any auditions & by having a Step 2 score that is not only lower than your Step 1, but hardly passing.

 

[funshi baba]

thanks krazykritter. Thanks for the advice. I feared the worse when i got that score back. I might still have a window of time to rework my schedule. i have 6 DO programs on my radar (Doctors, largo, Southpointe, St. barnabas, lutheran in NY and one other). Any other i should consider?

I guess my ignorant self assumed i couldnt have done that bad on my step 2, to actually comeback to hunt me. I scheduled most of my 4th yr at big allopathic institution, but like i said i have to correct my mistake so am not left hanging come match time.

thanks again

 

[DOCpa]

If you're looking to stay east look at these as well:

1. PCOM: http://generalsurgeryresidents.com/

2. Geisinger: http://www.geisinger.edu/Residencies/osteo_surg/index.html

3. UMDNJ: http://som.umdnj.edu/education/residency_surgery/

I interviewed at all three and all three seem to be top notch

Also have heard by word of mouth that most of the Michigan DO programs are strong.

http://www.opportunities.osteopathic.org/

 

[TomC727]

UMDNJ is an excellent program and a lot less traveling compared to PCOM

 

[Firelight]

Does anyone have any information about the Michigan osteopathic general surgery programs? I would like to schedule a couple of audition rotations. I've already looked at the AOA website as well as the individual hospital's websites, but I'd like to know what the residents think about their programs.

Thank you!

 

[pillowsleeper]

Usually the best programs on the east coast are:

Lutheran, St. joesph's, PCOM

UMDNJ has fallen

Geiseinger has a decent reputation

Midwest:

Doctors, Genesys, Mt. Clemens

Botsford is sorta second tier


West coast I don't know

 

[Kuba]

Usually the best programs on the east coast are:

Lutheran, St. joesph's, PCOM

UMDNJ has fallen

Geiseinger has a decent reputation

Midwest:

Doctors, Genesys, Mt. Clemens

Botsford is sorta second tier


West coast I don't know

I really disagree with PCOM being near the top. Maybe at some point, but I don't think its there anymore. I agree with St Joes(even though its not a full program yet) and Lutheran. I would add St James Chicago to the Midwest.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So, I read through a bunch of threads on the D.O. general surgery residencies and haven't really seen what the average COMLEX scores (step 1 and step 2) are for these residencies.

Does a stellar step 2 help to outweigh a mediocre step 1? any insight would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[SLUser11]

So, I read through a bunch of threads on the D.O. general surgery residencies and haven't really seen what the average COMLEX scores (step 1 and step 2) are for these residencies.

Does a stellar step 2 help to outweigh a mediocre step 1? any insight would be appreciated, thanks!

I can't help you since I'm allopathic, but I did notice someone fleetingly mention earlier in the thread that there are unfilled spots. You may want to PM someone like LovelyRita or GregsAnatomy to get more info on which positions are more and less desirable.

Also, I think one of major problems you'll encounter is that it's generally frowned upon to smoke rocks...

 

[GregsAnatomy]

So, I read through a bunch of threads on the D.O. general surgery residencies and haven't really seen what the average COMLEX scores (step 1 and step 2) are for these residencies.

Does a stellar step 2 help to outweigh a mediocre step 1? any insight would be appreciated, thanks!

I dont think there's any way of knowing the average COMLEX score. In short, the higher the better, but DO programs tend to be more forgiving about low scores if you are genuinely interested in surgery and rock your audition rotation. A stellar step 2 certainly outweighs a mediocre step 1. SLUser gives excellent advice about the rock smoking....

 

[Kuba]

So, I read through a bunch of threads on the D.O. general surgery residencies and haven't really seen what the average COMLEX scores (step 1 and step 2) are for these residencies.

Does a stellar step 2 help to outweigh a mediocre step 1? any insight would be appreciated, thanks!

I've heard "above 550" routinely mentioned by PDs when they mention high scores, although I don't believe a lower score eliminates you from consideration by any means. A program that emphasizes high scores that comes to mind is Doctors in Columbus.

 

[Medbear]

One thing I'm fairly curious about in regards to osteopathic G.S. residencies is that would applying to both both allo/osteo programs be looked down upon by some osteopathic programs ?

 

[Epoophoron]

Hey All,

I thought I'd post my personal experiences here since I've been reading a lot of "you need to rock USMLE to have an icicle's chance in hell at ACGME programs...blah, blah, blah."

I am a DO student and I applied to surgery with the following credentials:

USMLE 1: 231
COMLEX 1: 612
COMLEX 2: 552
Class Rank: Somewhere near the middle

I applied broadly to ACGME programs and received 18 interviews at a smattering of community, university and combination community/university programs. I did not "rock" step 1, did not take step 2 and did not do any out-rotations at any of the programs I received interview offers from. I had several strong LORs from surgeons I rotated with during my 3rd year, which I believe was very helpful in netting the interviews. Bottom line: if you're willing to apply broadly, you aren't really that limited by being an osteopathic student applying to ACGME surgery programs. Once you've made it to the interview, you're on equal footing with anyone else they've invited and the rest is up to being personal and meshing well with the residents.

 

[DanDan17]

Hey All,

I thought I'd post my personal experiences here since I've been reading a lot of "you need to rock USMLE to have an icicle's chance in hell at ACGME programs...blah, blah, blah."

I am a DO student and I applied to surgery with the following credentials:

USMLE 1: 231
COMLEX 1: 612
COMLEX 2: 552
Class Rank: Somewhere near the middle

I applied broadly to ACGME programs and received 18 interviews at a smattering of community, university and combination community/university programs. I did not "rock" step 1, did not take step 2 and did not do any out-rotations at any of the programs I received interview offers from. I had several strong LORs from surgeons I rotated with during my 3rd year, which I believe was very helpful in netting the interviews. Bottom line: if you're willing to apply broadly, you aren't really that limited by being an osteopathic student applying to ACGME surgery programs. Once you've made it to the interview, you're on equal footing with anyone else they've invited and the rest is up to being personal and meshing well with the residents.

Anywhere along your application process did you happen to see any ACGME programs that accepted a COMLEX score without a USMLE (I would think none, but can't hurt to ask someone )? I am not really interested in entering an ACGME residency but location is a big factor for residency and I wouldn't mind increasing my options,

Cheers

 

[SLUser11]

Bottom line: if you're willing to apply broadly, you aren't really that limited by being an osteopathic student applying to ACGME surgery programs. Once you've made it to the interview, you're on equal footing with anyone else they've invited and the rest is up to being personal and meshing well with the residents.

Did you already match? I have to admit I can't remember when the AOA match occurs. However, I think it's too early to be shouting success if you're gunning for ACGME since the match hasn't happened yet. That being said, I think 18 interviews is impressive for a DO, and it speaks to the quality of your application.

Also, I would disagree with your last sentence. The letters and numbers on your application continue to matter once you've made it to the interview.

 

[Buzz Me]

Also, I would disagree with your last sentence. The letters and numbers on your application continue to matter once you've made it to the interview.

Agreed. As our rank order list meetings have shown, when ranking applicants their entire file - scores, letters, grades, research, interviews - goes into the decision-making process. It's not like everyone being invited for an interview suddenly become equivalent and the interview scores are the only factors left for ranking purposes.

 

[Clouds22]

Hey all!

I am a first year medical student at TOUROCOM and have my heart sent on Cardiothoracic Surgery. Is this do-able as a DO student? I have used the AOA website and found all the general surgery residencies, I just don't know what any of the acronyms mean. Any helpful advice or resources would be great! Please let know if you guys match and where.

Thanks!

 

[Buzz Me]

I am a first year medical student at TOUROCOM and have my heart sent on Cardiothoracic Surgery. Is this do-able as a DO student? I have used the AOA website and found all the general surgery residencies, I just don't know what any of the acronyms mean. Any helpful advice or resources would be great! Please let know if you guys match and where.

It's a little early to be worrying about fellowship...aren't you partway through your Master's program and waiting to start med school in the fall? Just concentrate on doing well during the first two years, see how you like your rotations in your M3 year and go from there.

 

[Es Pontas]

I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of fellowships some of the residents outside of the "top tier" DO programs were landing...or in other words...can you still land a dec fellowship if you don't go to a stud program or are you destined for general surgery (which I would still be alright with for sure).

 

[TallScrubs]

Just a plug for my home institution, PCOM. Senior residents matched the following:

1) vasc. at Penn
2) trauma at Cooper
3) CT at Rush
4) Surg Onc at Roswell
5) Breast Surg at Washington

Seems pretty good to me--albeit I'm a first year.

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Mercy Des Moines has matched residents in the following

-CT: university of Minnesota
-vasc: medical college of Wisconsin
-breast: mayo clinic
-trauma/critical care: univ of Iowa, Minnesota, shock trauma

 

[Dissected]

Mercy Des Moines has matched residents in the following

-CT: university of Minnesota
-vasc: medical college of Wisconsin
-breast: mayo clinic
-trauma/critical care: univ of Iowa, Minnesota, shock trauma

Don't forget Dr. Folkers! Plastics at the Cleveland Clinic.

http://www.mercydesmoines.org/surgery_res/graduates2.cfm

 

[Es Pontas]

Does anyone have any thoughts about whether or not DO residencies will be able to do ACGME fellowships in the next 10 years? I've heard that it is on delay for a bit (not sure even if my sources are correct to be honest) but that it might be a tough reality in the next decade. Also, if this happens, does that mean that all DO residents will have to do general surgery (as there really aren't that many fellowship opportunities in the DO world).?

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Not sure who your sources are but there are many DO residents who trained in AOA programs doing acgme fellowships currently.

 

[Es Pontas]

Not sure who your sources are but there are many DO residents who trained in AOA programs doing acgme fellowships currently.

Of course but I've heard propositions that they are trying to stop that...

 

[Dissected]

Of course but I've heard propositions that they are trying to stop that...

Yep this is the one: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/reviewComment/Common_Impact.pdf

I guess it was voted down or 'deferred' or something

This would be pretty terrible for AOA trained general surgeons trying to enter ACGME fellowships.

 

[SLUser11]

Yep this is the one: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/reviewComment/Common_Impact.pdf

I guess it was voted down or 'deferred' or something

This would be pretty terrible for AOA trained general surgeons trying to enter ACGME fellowships.

That would definitely suck for AOA trained surgeons. It's hard to argue with, though, since the ACGME and RRC are not involved in the regulation/oversight of those residencies, so they cannot guarantee the quality of the surgical education.

While it hits closer to home, I'm not sure it's much different than disallowing a UK/India/Russia/Norway-trained surgeon to enter an ACGME fellowship.

On a side note, I am by no means saying that DO residencies lack quality. I'm certain that many of them are excellent.

 

[judasreznor]

Why are there not very many DO surgical fellowships? Are there plans to establish more of them?

 

[Khirurg]

Why are there not very many DO surgical fellowships? Are there plans to establish more of them?

DO surgical fellowship means there has to be a place which has a significant volume to adequately train a fellow and DO surgeon to be a program director. There also has to be demand for this training, that hasn't been adequately met with existing fellowships. The reason there so few DO fellowships, is that one of these was missing. If this thing with ACGME fellowships not accepting DO residents will go through, i have a feeling, new DO fellowships will start emerging.

 

[Es Pontas]

Can anyone comment on what they feel are the "top" DO GS residencies now? There always seems to be some flux from year to year (as program directors come and go) so I was just wondering what people thought? Thanks so much!!

 

[TomC727]

Look into UMDNJ. Good place

 

[WDeagle]

Can anyone comment on what they feel are the "top" DO GS residencies now? There always seems to be some flux from year to year (as program directors come and go) so I was just wondering what people thought? Thanks so much!!

Ive always heard really good things about PCOM and Mercy in iowa. If you look at where they fellowship match its pretty impressive Also, heard great things about Doctors and St. Vincents. Most of the michigan programs are pretty good too.

 

[Es Pontas]

Does anyone have any info on St. Barnabas, Lutheran, or any of the other programs (other than they are good)?

 

[Colle05]

.

 

[Poisson]

My question is "Are DO scores the same as MD scores to match into residency positions?" What is the advantage of an allopathic residency trained DO versus an osteopathic residency trained DO? Does a DO applying to allopathic residency slots as well as osteopathic residency slots need to have higher scores than MD applicants because of the preference given to their own? I am considering the DO medical degree application strongly because of my lower, but upward, academic record. One side of me really likes the physician scientist field (I have an MS degree - 4.0 and enjoy research), and have found that research is not as prominent at DO schools, although some programs of DO-PhD have several 3.9-4.0 undergrads in them, and there is a lot of research. After hearing from MD-PhD student discussion, some think that there is a "match issue," although my opinion is that a holder of two doctoral degrees might be in a different situation, one not considered often. I want to be in research and surgery, and don't think there is a big issue with match (there is a non-traditional undergraduate student who is an osteopathic trained orthopaedic surgeon in my area, took him a several year gap to boost his profile, get a medical masters, and get in, and worked as a construction worker in the process). Some other questions I had were about specialties. Is orthopaedic surgery considered much more competitive then general surgery because of the number of spots, the interesting nature of the work, or the salary? I have been in bone and orthopaedic research for about 3 years and passionate about the field.

Thank you for your time,

Poisson

 

[Oxer45]

My question is "Are DO scores the same as MD scores to match into residency positions?" What is the advantage of an allopathic residency trained DO versus an osteopathic residency trained DO? Does a DO applying to allopathic residency slots as well as osteopathic residency slots need to have higher scores than MD applicants because of the preference given to their own? I am considering the DO medical degree application strongly because of my lower, but upward, academic record. One side of me really likes the physician scientist field (I have an MS degree - 4.0 and enjoy research), and have found that research is not as prominent at DO schools, although some programs of DO-PhD have several 3.9-4.0 undergrads in them, and there is a lot of research. After hearing from MD-PhD student discussion, some think that there is a "match issue," although my opinion is that a holder of two doctoral degrees might be in a different situation, one not considered often. I want to be in research and surgery, and don't think there is a big issue with match (there is a non-traditional undergraduate student who is an osteopathic trained orthopaedic surgeon in my area, took him a several year gap to boost his profile, get a medical masters, and get in, and worked as a construction worker in the process). Some other questions I had were about specialties. Is orthopaedic surgery considered much more competitive then general surgery because of the number of spots, the interesting nature of the work, or the salary? I have been in bone and orthopaedic research for about 3 years and passionate about the field.

Thank you for your time,

Poisson

Too many questions!! But I'll try:
Ortho surg: Most people who go into ortho does so cause they love it. But you have to understand that ortho pays almost double as gen surg, and that does play a part into competitiveness

Research: Most people use research as a stepping stone to get into competitive school/residency. The type of people who want to become a doctor (ie work with patients) usually dont want to be in a lab running experiments. Before you dedicate your life to research, make sure you actually like it. That being said, you will do research in med school and residency cause it helps you get to where you want to go..

 

[Oxer45]

I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on the quality of some of the osteopathic GS residencies.

How does a thread become 3 yrs old without any useful info:
Lutheran (Brooklyn, NY): Level 1 trauma, so trauma heavy. Fun for med students, but may suck for interns, cause lots of trauma is BS (as is everywhere). Lots of cases for residents. Residents are worked, but happy. Chairman is someone important in laproscopy, so residents get into great min invasive fellowships.

Wyckoff (Brooklyn, NY): Pays residents higher than any prog (i think like 70k intern yr).

Barnabas (Bronx, NY): Level 1 trauma, but due to strong ER prog, traumas are less BS. Plastics fellowship which takes 1/yr inhouse. Good match list.

Flushing Hosp (Flushing, NY): Just opened, so cant comment.

Southhampton (Hamptons, NY): 2 locations. Southhamptons is seasonal since lots of people come to hamptons in summer. Probably offers good work-life balance (compared to other surg residency, not IM)

PCOM: Probably the oldest DO residency. Good fellowship match, almost everyone goes into fellowships. Downside is they have 9+ hospitals they rotate in, and rotations change frequently. So got to be comfortable with lots of different hospitals.

St Joesph (Patterson, NJ): Seemed to have good # of cases. Trauma center.

Henry Ford (MI): Seemed strong, with variety of cases.

UMPC Herizon: small program with a family like feel. Probably cause PD is the son of the older PD. Attendings seemed to be very interested in the well bring of residents.

Everywhere I interviewed had positives and negatives. Interviewing day perceptions can be very skewed, since everyone is trying to put forward their best. When interviewing at any program look for:

(1) Case load and variety of surgery and at what pgy yr is a resident capable of doing a specific surg with the attending watching
(2) Resident happiness, attending interest.
(3) Dont pay too much attention to the location of hosp. ex: Barnabas is in Bronx, NY. But most residents live in nice neighborhood and drive in. Southhamptons is in one of the richest neighborhood in the nation (millionaires mostly), but most residents cant afford to live there. So they also commute.

Unlike MD match, in DO match, programs are allowed to tell you how they will rank you. According to the DO rules, both sides are expected to be honest in their verbal communications. In my interviews, post interview almost everyone told me how they would rank me (honestly too, not all "we will rank you highly"). People also told me approx what position I will be ranked.

 

[Dissected]

Thanks Oxer. It's nice to get a take on some of the East Coast programs.

It would be nice to hear from others as well, as I'm sure you remember how hard it is to get good information about Osteopathic programs before applying. Hopefully I can add some useful info to this thread next year.

 

[Colle05]

How does a thread become 3 yrs old without any useful info:
Lutheran (Brooklyn, NY): Level 1 trauma, so trauma heavy. Fun for med students, but may suck for interns, cause lots of trauma is BS (as is everywhere). Lots of cases for residents. Residents are worked, but happy. Chairman is someone important in laproscopy, so residents get into great min invasive fellowships.

Wyckoff (Brooklyn, NY): Pays residents higher than any prog (i think like 70k intern yr).

Barnabas (Bronx, NY): Level 1 trauma, but due to strong ER prog, traumas are less BS. Plastics fellowship which takes 1/yr inhouse. Good match list.

Flushing Hosp (Flushing, NY): Just opened, so cant comment.

Southhampton (Hamptons, NY): 2 locations. Southhamptons is seasonal since lots of people come to hamptons in summer. Probably offers good work-life balance (compared to other surg residency, not IM)

PCOM: Probably the oldest DO residency. Good fellowship match, almost everyone goes into fellowships. Downside is they have 9+ hospitals they rotate in, and rotations change frequently. So got to be comfortable with lots of different hospitals.

St Joesph (Patterson, NJ): Seemed to have good # of cases. Trauma center.

Henry Ford (MI): Seemed strong, with variety of cases.

UMPC Herizon: small program with a family like feel. Probably cause PD is the son of the older PD. Attendings seemed to be very interested in the well bring of residents.

Everywhere I interviewed had positives and negatives. Interviewing day perceptions can be very skewed, since everyone is trying to put forward their best. When interviewing at any program look for:

(1) Case load and variety of surgery and at what pgy yr is a resident capable of doing a specific surg with the attending watching
(2) Resident happiness, attending interest.
(3) Dont pay too much attention to the location of hosp. ex: Barnabas is in Bronx, NY. But most residents live in nice neighborhood and drive in. Southhamptons is in one of the richest neighborhood in the nation (millionaires mostly), but most residents cant afford to live there. So they also commute.

Unlike MD match, in DO match, programs are allowed to tell you how they will rank you. According to the DO rules, both sides are expected to be honest in their verbal communications. In my interviews, post interview almost everyone told me how they would rank me (honestly too, not all "we will rank you highly"). People also told me approx what position I will be ranked.

Thanks for the great info! Any comments on Board scores needed at the "top" places?

 

[Oxer45]

Thanks for the great info! Any comments on Board scores needed at the "top" places?

For DO gen surg, doing a rotation at the residency hospital seems really important. A place where I rotated, the PD told me "if you want to come here, you'll be here." A location where I did not rotate the PD's main concern was why I did not rotate there, since I was interested in his program. Both programs were of same caliber and of course my scores were the same.

You have to understand, for a given region, say northeast, there are about 75 applicants and about ~15 programs. So everyone knows everyone. PD's like to see who they'll be hiring.

As for scores, there was so much variety between the residents at any given place, I cant give you an exact #. Also other factors confound any fast rules about scores: academic scholars who did a year of anatomy, research, connections, etc.

 

[judasreznor]

So is it important to try to connect with these people in some other way than before third/fourth year rotations (research, shadowing, etc.)?