Osteopathic medicine & LGBT people. 5 MIN ACTION MOMENT!

[bth7]

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Dear friends,

As many of you know, allopathic and osteopathic medicine still have their differences.

One of those differences is the attitude towards LGBT patients, physicians and medical students.

MD's protect lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. DO's don't. (https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0708letters.pdf http://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0808letters.pdf )

NOW IS THE TIME FOR ACTION. 5 minutes of your time now will change this profession. The deadline is Wednesday July 15th @ 6:30pm. That's the meeting of the The National Osteopathic Student Caucus in Chicago. If you can't go, you can still be heard!

3 resolutions of relevance to LGBT people will be discussed at this meeting.

#1 Resolution H-202. "Diversity in AOA membership."

This resolution encourages diversity within the the AOA and advocates for recruiting minorities into leadership positions. It does not include LGBT people.

H-202: What fun is diversity if you don't have LGBT people included?

#2 Resolution H-235. "Minorities in the Osteopathic Profession - Collecting Data"

This resolution calls for collection demographic data (anonymously) to assess diversity within osteopathic medicine. It does not include LGBT people.
H-235: If LGBT people aren't counted, we are invisible.
If we aren't asked, we can't tell.
Silence = Death.

#3 Resolution H-270 Gender Identity Non-discrimination

This resolution sounds good, but it sure isn't. For starters, it pathologizes all transgender people. Secondly, it lacks any force. It doesn't call for the addition of gender identity to the AOA Code of Ethics. It fails to call for the end of discrimination against transgender people when applying to osteopathic medical schools.

H-270: Unacceptable. Discriminatory. Wrong.

What can you do?

#1 Find out who your student government people are, or find anyone who will be attending the caucus: AMSA, SNMA, UAAO will be there. Send them an email. If you don't have time, you can copy this email, or you can request amendments to the resolutions I've discussed. I've included suggested amendments at the end of this email.

BCC your email to: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

#2 Get online on Wednesday, July 15th at 6:30p Central Time. You can electronically speak to the caucus. Make your voice heard. Here's the link: http://65.242.33.236/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=75

#3 Remember that some osteopathic medical schools ban LGBT student groups from forming, namely Touro-NY. Don't take no for an answer. Ask for change. Demand change.

In his September 2005 address to the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA), 2004-05 AMA President Edward Hill, MD, said, “I know that GLMA members and LGBT physicians have been treated unfairly by the AMA in the past. There is simply no excuse for discriminatory actions or exclusions based on sexual orientation or gender identity—none.” If the allopathic medical profession can argue that there is “no excuse” for discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, what is the response of the osteopathic medical profession to this kind of prejudice?

Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students and physicians already serve as distinguished members of the osteopathic medical profession. Now it is time for the osteopathic medical community to acknowledge them.

Bryan Thomas Hopping, DO
Touro Univerisity College of Osteopathic Medicine, Class of 2009
Department of Psychiatry, North Shore - Long Island JewishHealth System



_______________________________________________

SPECIFIC RESOLUTION AMENDMENTS. Recomended changes in ALL CAPS.

RES. NO. H-202 Diversity in AOA membership (http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod09res205.pdf)

Should be amended to include:

African Americans, Native Americans/ALASKAN NATIVES, Hispanic Americans and Asian Americans and LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL and TRANSGENDER AMERICANS.

AND WILL CONTINUE TO PROVIDE LEADERSHIP OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN AND RACIAL AND ETHNIC AND LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER MINORITIES IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AT BOTH STATE AND NATIONAL LEVELS

__________________________

RES. NO. H-235 MINORITIES IN THE OSTEOPATHIC PROFESSION – COLLECTING DATA (http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod09res235.pdf)

The American Osteopathic Association (AOA) will: (1) include optional questions relating to race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status AND IDENITY AS A GAY, LESIBIAN, BISEXUAL OR TRANSGENDER PERSON as part of the data collected from physicians in membership records;

______________________________________

RES. NO. H-270 Gender Identity Non-Discrimination ( http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod09res270.pdf )

(amend to remove text in italics) RESOLVED, that the American Osteopathic Association support the provision of adequate and medically necessary treatment for transgender and gender-variant people; and be it further

RESOLVED, the American Osteopathic Association opposes discrimination on the basis of gender identity AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION; AND BE IT FURTHER

RESOLVED, THE AMERICAN OSTEOPATHIC ASSOCIATION SHALL ADD TO ITS CODE OF ETHICS, SECTION 3 TO INCLUDE GENDER IDENTITY AS PATIENT POPULATIONS WHO SHOULD NOT BE REFUSED TREATMENT; AND BE IT FURTHER

RESOLVED, THE AMERICAN OSTEOPATHIC ASSOCIATION RECOMMENDS THE COMISSION ON OSTEOPATHIC COLLEGE ACCREDIDATION AMEND ACCREDIDATION STANDARD 5.2.2 TO READ:

Recruiting and selection of students for admission to a COM (college of osteopathic
medicine) must not discriminate on the basis of race, color, gender, religion,
national origin, age, disabilities or STATUS AS A GAY, LESBIAN, BISEXUAL OR TRANSGENDER PERSON

 

[235750]

Remember that some osteopathic medical schools ban LGBT student groups from forming, namely Touro-NY.

You are wrong, Sir. You might be thinking of one of two incidents:

(1) Touro-CA. The Gay-Straight Alliance had been threaten to have their funds pulled, but the admin backed down. The group in question was reinstated days later

(2) New York Medical College (an MD school) denied the creation of a Gay-Straight Alliance group for a year, but it too caved.

I agree that a non-discriminatory clause should be instituted regarding sexual orientation and gender. Just keep the discussion factual 👍

 

[bth7]

You are wrong, Sir. You might be thinking of one of two incidents:

(1) Touro-CA. The Gay-Straight Alliance had been threaten to have their funds pulled, but the admin backed down. The group in question was reinstated days later

(2) New York Medical College (an MD school) denied the creation of a Gay-Straight Alliance group for a year, but it too caved.

I agree that a non-discriminatory clause should be instituted regarding sexual orientation and gender. Just keep the discussion factual 👍

My understanding is the gay-straight alliance at Touro-NY is curently banned. Groups relating to sexual orientation are banned according to the student handbook of Touro-NY.

If I'm wrong, I of course apologize. This is my understanding from speaking with currently Touro-NY students, and reps from AMSA, who have been trying to address the problem with Touro-NY admin.

Any additional info you have would be greatly appreciated.

bth

 

[235750]

My understanding is the gay-straight alliance at Touro-NY is currently banned. Groups relating to sexual orientation are banned according to the student handbook of Touro-NY.

I'm looking at the handbook right now. It is a year old, but I don't see anything

As Touro-NY is just another branch of Touro, I would think that they all fall under the same administrative policies. Touro-CA definitely has a gay-straight alliance group. So, I don't see how they wouldn't be allowed in NY being as they all have the same head

It was a big deal when for 3 days Touro-CA banned the aforementioned group, not to mention when New York Medical College had their year-long ban. So, I doubt Touro-NY is being evil here, but I will email the head of admissions there about it (Figeuro or whatever his name is)

I will post his answer here later. I just think that it doesn't really help a cause (in this case, a very good cause) by writing things you cannot substantiate immediately. What other schools were you referring to when you mentioned this supposed ban?

Good luck

 

[bth7]

I just think that it doesn't really help a cause (in this case, a very good cause) by writing things you cannot substantiate immediately.

I hear you. Your point is solid.

My claims are based on two sources. One, I have had several conversations with Touro-NY LGBT students who've tried to start a club at Touro-NY. Only to be told, that's not permitted.

#2 I'm going off the student handbook for Touro-NY that's online. There's a link from their homepage. But here it is: http://www.touro.edu/med/docs/student-handbook-2009-2010.pdf

P. 11 "Recognition of Student Organizations
Approval and recognition will be given to organizations dedicated to the advancement of the osteopathic profession. Organizations concerned with politics, race, religion or sexual identity will not be considered."

Now, obviously they wanted to be fair, so they lumped "politics, race, religion, or sexual identity."

The only problem is, the policy isn't be applied consistently. Check the official list of student clubs. http://www.touro.edu/med/clubs.html Student National Medical Association is the student medical group for students of color. Further, AMSA obviously deal with politics. They were both granted charters (as they should be), why not the LGBT folks?

Again, if you have other information, I'd love to know about it. But I wanted you to know that I made some effort to maintain accuracy.

Thanks for contacting the school.

bth

 

[builttorock]

The above-mentioned resolutions weren't discussed on the floor of the NOSC because they are reaffirmation resolutions. The NOSC only discusses new resolutions.

The above-mentioned resolutions are going to be discussed at the AOA House of Delegates on Saturday and should certainly be amended to reflect this issue.

 

[bth7]

The above-mentioned resolutions weren't discussed on the floor of the NOSC because they are reaffirmation resolutions. The NOSC only discusses new resolutions.

The above-mentioned resolutions are going to be discussed at the AOA House of Delegates on Saturday and should certainly be amended to reflect this issue.

Thanks for clarifying the re-affirmation issue.
The problem is, without a lot of awareness, especially on the part of the student caucus, these amendments will not get passed at AOA HOD.

I agree they should . . . but, without advocacy, the changes won't happen.

bth

 

[bth7]

Anyone currently at AOA in Chicago? News?

 

[bigDinLV]

This is such crap. Why can't you just be a doctor instead of telling everyone you are a gay doctor?? Why in the hell should you have any special treatment? As far as I know a good doctor is a good doctor if they are straight, gay, black white or whatever. This is the exact same crap you guys pulled in CA. The school dared to disagree with having a gay group, based onthe fact that Touro is a Jewish institution and the religion doesn't agree with homosexuality. You tried to drag them through the mud. So now you want to drag the AOA through the mud. Anyone that doesn't make special arrangements for your groups gets the same treatment. You scream and cry and try to make them look like **** for not being in agreement with you.

 

[bth7]

This is such crap. Why can't you just be a doctor instead of telling everyone you are a gay doctor?? Why in the hell should you have any special treatment? As far as I know a good doctor is a good doctor if they are straight, gay, black white or whatever. This is the exact same crap you guys pulled in CA. The school dared to disagree with having a gay group, based onthe fact that Touro is a Jewish institution and the religion doesn't agree with homosexuality. You tried to drag them through the mud. So now you want to drag the AOA through the mud. Anyone that doesn't make special arrangements for your groups gets the same treatment. You scream and cry and try to make them look like **** for not being in agreement with you.

If you have a suggestion for addressing the fact that DOs schools ban LGBT student groups, while MD school don't, I'd love to hear it.

DO schools and the AOA may wish to continue to ban LGBT people from joining the DO community, but in my opinion there should be a vote in the AOA governing body to that effect.

bth

 

[J1515]

\
DO schools and the AOA may wish to continue to ban LGBT people from joining the DO community, but in my opinion there should be a vote in the AOA governing body to that effect.

Oh stop. Enough with the histrionics. Nobody is banning LGBT's from becoming DOs I'm not even going to waste my time arguing this nonsense.

PS - I went through all of medical school without joining a single student club or organization and I turned out perfectly fine. Clubs are not a necessity, they are a luxury.

 

[bigDinLV]

If you have a suggestion for addressing the fact that DOs schools ban LGBT student groups, while MD school don't, I'd love to hear it.

DO schools and the AOA may wish to continue to ban LGBT people from joining the DO community, but in my opinion there should be a vote in the AOA governing body to that effect.

bth

I was completely unaware that gays/lesbians/anyone at all had been banned from the DO community.

This is the problem. Someone doesn't agree with you and now you are spewing lies to drag them down. Simple fact, none of you have been banned from the DO community. The AOA just hasn't responded and given you what you want. Now you are making lies up in order to drag them down.

This type of stuff makes people sick of it. I could honestly care less if you guys have a group. Good for you if you had one. But when it comes to petty crybaby crap like this, it makes me dislike the idea.

Have you ever considered handling things without the crying and mud slinging?? You would get a lot more out of life that way. People might even like you if you handled yourself in a different manner. I can say that is not the case here.

 

[bth7]

I was completely unaware that gays/lesbians/anyone at all had been banned from the DO community.

This is the problem. Someone doesn't agree with you and now you are spewing lies to drag them down. Simple fact, none of you have been banned from the DO community. The AOA just hasn't responded and given you what you want. Now you are making lies up in order to drag them down.

This type of stuff makes people sick of it. I could honestly care less if you guys have a group. Good for you if you had one. But when it comes to petty crybaby crap like this, it makes me dislike the idea.

Have you ever considered handling things without the crying and mud slinging?? You would get a lot more out of life that way. People might even like you if you handled yourself in a different manner. I can say that is not the case here.

Amazing. DO schools ban gay groups (MD schools don't), but somehow you are the victim, not the LGBT people.

I might say to you, if you tried another tactic besides falsely accusing LGBT people of lying about their groups being banned, you might get more of the results you are looking for. 🙂

Not only are the gay groups actually banned at some DO schools, but the AOA leadership has made it very clear they don't feel comfortable with transgender physicians in their midst. This is unacceptable.

bth

 

[homeboy]

Amazing. DO schools ban gay groups (MD schools don't), but somehow you are the victim, not the LGBT people.

I might say to you, if you tried another tactic besides falsely accusing LGBT people of lying about their groups being banned, you might get more of the results you are looking for. 🙂

Not only are the gay groups actually banned at some DO schools, but the AOA leadership has made it very clear they don't feel comfortable with transgender physicians in their midst. This is unacceptable.

bth

Despite how often you repeat "DO schools ban gay groups and MD schools don't", it doesn't cover the fact that such a blanket statement is overly dramatic and a gross oversimplification.

Due to the actions of one or two universities, your subsequent mischaracterization of the entire osteopathic profession as 'guilt by association' is no less ridiculous than saying all private institutions are equally "unfair" in their treatment of ROTC programs, which have been banned at varying degrees from multiple private institutions.

Granted, these institutions have seen a lot of flak from such policies, but it is nonetheless the right of the university council, student body, & boards to decide, being it is a PRIVATE institution and protected as such under the law.

And personally, I feel the ROTC programs have infinitely more justification for being a legitimate campus group than one who's sole purpose is self-serving.

You're not being prevented from having meetings, gathering, and discussing issues. But that's not what you want: what you want is tacit endorsement & recognition that your group is valid & justifiable, and consequently worthy of being an officially recognized campus group.

 

[aimee21]

You're not being prevented from having meetings, gathering, and discussing issues. But that's not what you want: what you want is tacit endorsement & recognition that your group is valid & justifiable, and consequently worthy of being an officially recognized campus group.

I completely agree. Not having an "official" LGBT group doesn't stop you from having a LGBT community or supporting each other. Honestly though, how are you being discriminated against? You're in medical school and you will be a doctor. As far as I know, the AOA doesn't prohibit homosexual doctors from practicing certain specialties or in certain areas - so what exactly are you trying to advocate? I'm not trying to be insulting; I just don't quite understand what the mission of your student group will be.

 

[homeboy]

I completely agree. Not having an "official" LGBT group doesn't stop you from having a LGBT community or supporting each other. Honestly though, how are you being discriminated against? You're in medical school and you will be a doctor. As far as I know, the AOA doesn't prohibit homosexual doctors from practicing certain specialties or in certain areas - so what exactly are you trying to advocate? I'm not trying to be insulting; I just don't quite understand what the mission of your student group will be.

Like I said, he doesn't want equality, he wants tacit endorsement.

The mission, as bth has stated before, is to bring LGBT issues (medical & social) to the forefront of medical education to raise awareness of the unique aspects of care the LGBT community requires.

...which is wholly and entirely ridiculous. Despite the acknowledgement that being a member of the LGBT community may put one at risk for various disease states, this knowledge is already infused into medical curricula, and propagating the notion that special attention need be focused through university-sponsored events, meetings, rallies, etc., at the beckoning of the official LGBT Campus Group, completely ignores that such knowledge is already a part of our education.

Do we need a Caucasian Obese Iowans group to promote the general knowledge that midwestern farmers are exceedingly prone to CAD? Do we need a Heterosexual Inner-City Low-Income Minorities group to promote the general knowledge that such groups have higher rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, drug abuse and incarceration, and are stereotypically discriminated against?

More likely, the LGBT club stands to promote the principles & political aspirations of the larger LGBT community.

From the GLMA website:
"Founded in 1981, GLMA works to combat homophobia within the medical profession and in society at large; to promote quality health care for LGBT and HIV-positive people; to foster a professional climate in which our diverse members can achieve their full potential; and to support members challenged by discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation."

Noble goals, indeed, but if you're a good physician, a good resident, a good student, you don't need an official university-sponsored group to enforce basic medical knowledge or to supposedly "promote awareness" of general sociomedical issues, and overzealous efforts to do so generally end up creating more friction & disagreement than there was initially.

HIV-positive and LGBT patients / providers demand the same respect non-HIV and non-LGBT patients/providers receive; we all should achieve our full potential; discrimination is bad no matter what form it takes…but people DON'T have the "right" to be free from knowledge that others may disagree with them.

 

[J1515]

My school wouldn't let me start a official sponsored group for women with bicornuate uteruses. I had no idea the DO profession frowned upon women with congenital uterine defects. Do they have any idea how difficult it is dealing with multiple 2nd trimester abortions? These women are being discriminated against and I think we all need to petition the AOA. The world needs more female physicans with bicornuate uteruses so that patients with this condition can be treated knowledgeably and without prejudice.

And perhaps someone could tell me: When did medical school became more about political bitching and whining instead of learning medicine for 4 years, and then practicing medicine? 🙄

 

[bigDinLV]

Amazing. DO schools ban gay groups (MD schools don't), but somehow you are the victim, not the LGBT people.

I might say to you, if you tried another tactic besides falsely accusing LGBT people of lying about their groups being banned, you might get more of the results you are looking for. 🙂

Not only are the gay groups actually banned at some DO schools, but the AOA leadership has made it very clear they don't feel comfortable with transgender physicians in their midst. This is unacceptable.

bth

There is another problem with your tactics. At no point did I claim to be a victim of anything. So now you can go around and make stuff up about me too because I don't support you.

Plus you said the DO community, not Touro university no longer giving the group support or the AOA not hearing you. Get your facts straight.

If if makes you feel any better, i'm sure that a straight white male group would not be allowed either. You know why? There is no place for this crap in medicine. If you spent as much time on medicine as you do on this stuff, you could probably be a great doctor.

 

[LSU Alex]

The LGBT group at our school came to an SGA meeting to request that it become a chartered (funded group). During that meeting, I questioned the representative about what we were lacking as far as making that subset of the community feel safe. (she implied that it was her group's mission to provide that part of the student community a place where they didn't feel threatened). She couldn't answer me. They simply wanted tuition dollars to go to their cause. The LGBT community is accepted here and in the medical profession. What people object to is being told over and over again that we must treat someone as an LGBT, a black person, or a white person rather than just a human being. Quit trying to cram your "specialness" and damn "hyphens" down our throats. And before anyone says anything, I am one of two blacks in my class. I don't believe in being a victim. As long as no one is preventing you from gathering, you aren't a victim and there is no cause.

 

[bth7]

There is no place for this crap in medicine.

You might be right about osteopathic medicine. Apparently, there is no place for LGBT people in osteopathic medicine, at least according to the AOA.

The AMA feels differently. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee.shtml


I think the DO community should be allowed to have whatever LGBT policy it wishes. But, I also think that pre-meds should know that the AMA actively seeks LGBT medical students, whereas the DO community allows schools to ban LGBT groups.

Let the pre-meds know. They can decide which system they want to be a part of. Obviously, if you're an LGBT person, this would be an important choice for you.

It's about giving pre-meds all the information.

bth

 

[J1515]

You might be right about osteopathic medicine. Apparently, there is no place for LGBT people in osteopathic medicine, at least according to the AOA.

The AMA feels differently. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee.shtml


I think the DO community should be allowed to have whatever LGBT policy it wishes. But, I also think that pre-meds should know that the AMA actively seeks LGBT medical students, whereas the DO community allows schools to ban LGBT groups.

Let the pre-meds know. They can decide which system they want to be a part of. Obviously, if you're an LGBT person, this would be an important choice for you.

It's about giving pre-meds all the information.

bth

Who the 'eff cares?

This should have ZERO influence over what school you choose (DO or MD). I'm heterosexual and I didn't choose my school because it had a great nightlife and plenty of attractive women. Your issues have nothing to do with medicine.

Enough already. You are actually making people less tolerant toward the LGBT crowd. Stop throwing your sexual preference in everyone's face. It's your own business and no one else's. I don't walk around screaming "I'm straight" to the world. I don't care if you're attracted to men, women, animals, or microwave ovens, it has nothing to do with medicine. Save it for your friday and saturday night outings.

 

[bth7]

Who the 'eff cares?

That's exactly the question I've been asking.

The answer is: The AMA & MD med schools care. The AOA, and DO students like yourself, don't.


bth

 

[275079]

You might be right about osteopathic medicine. Apparently, there is no place for LGBT people in osteopathic medicine, at least according to the AOA.

The AMA feels differently. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee.shtml


I think the DO community should be allowed to have whatever LGBT policy it wishes. But, I also think that pre-meds should know that the AMA actively seeks LGBT medical students, whereas the DO community allows schools to ban LGBT groups.

Let the pre-meds know. They can decide which system they want to be a part of. Obviously, if you're an LGBT person, this would be an important choice for you.

It's about giving pre-meds all the information.

bth

Stop making medical education a foundry for your political sorties. It demeans you and the profession. It's not the job of medical school to endorse your sexuality, no matter what it may be.

And lighten up. The world isn't out to get you.

 

[bth7]

It demeans you and the profession.

I'm a big boy, I can handle a little demeaning.

As far as the medical profession, my compliments go out to the AMA and the MD profession for their efforts and efforts to improve health care. Now, let's see if the AOA can catch up with its MD counterparts.

bth

 

[aimee21]

The AMA & MD med schools care. The AOA, and DO students like yourself, don't.

Statements like that are dangerous, insulting, and completely ignorant. I'm a (soon-to-be) DO student and I do care about gay rights. I just don't believe an individual's sexuality has any place in medical school - or in medicine. It's not like you're going to introduce yourself to a patient and say "Hello, I'm Dr. X, and I'm a homosexual."

Again, I still don't see what you're complaining about. No one on this forum has said anything about denying homosexuals acceptance into any medical school or infringing upon their rights in any way - we're just questioning the necessity of having a student club dedicated to the LGBT community. The bottom line is, you don't need a club to support each other or work with each other or provide services to the LGBT community in your area!

Instead of working so hard to get an unnecessary club on campus, become a fantastic doctor and then focus your practice on the needs of the LGBT community. That's more important than a student club anyway.

 

[275079]

I'm a big boy, I can handle a little demeaning.

. . .

bth

Then be a big boy and be comfortable in your own skin without a friggin' professional medical education organization catering an event in your name.

 

[J1515]

That's exactly the question I've been asking.

The answer is: The AMA & MD med schools care. The AOA, and DO students like yourself, don't.


bth

I'm not a student. And the AMA and MD schools don't give a rat's a** either. Just because they throw some small 5 point font writing at the bottom of their constitution means nothing. I can't believe you are that self centered that you think an entire medical establishment actually cares about your sexual preference just because they don't mention you.

You can live the rest of your life trying to find ways to call yourself a victim, or you can put your head down, study medicine, and become a great doctor. Something tells me you are going to continue to do the former.

I can't stress this enough: Nobody cares what your sexual preference is or what you do with your personal life, so stop throwing it in everyone's face and asking for approval.

 

[bth7]

Statements like that are dangerous, insulting, and completely ignorant. I'm a (soon-to-be) DO student and I do care about gay rights.

Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you care about gay rights. That's great!

As far as being dangerous and insulting. The most I can say is . . . I'm sorry for the insult. I'm not sure what the dangerous part is.

As far as being ignorant, that's the one point on which I'd strongly disagree. I'd ask you to investigate the policy of the AMA, the AOA, MD med schools and DO med schools regarding LGBT patients, medical students and physicians.

I'm basing my assertions on hard facts.

I understand that many people don't give a rats *ss about LGBT patients and docs. I do, and the AMA has reached out to me and the other LGBT student's at Touro and other DO schools. (Reached out = offered $$).

The AMA and MD med schools have come out in support of LGBT people, with unequivocal force. The AOA has made their position clear, they think its political, they don't think LGBT patients, docs or student groups need any kind of "support."

bth

 

[homeboy]

You might be right about osteopathic medicine. Apparently, there is no place for LGBT people in osteopathic medicine, at least according to the AOA.

The AMA feels differently. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee.shtml


I think the DO community should be allowed to have whatever LGBT policy it wishes. But, I also think that pre-meds should know that the AMA actively seeks LGBT medical students, whereas the DO community allows schools to ban LGBT groups.

Let the pre-meds know. They can decide which system they want to be a part of. Obviously, if you're an LGBT person, this would be an important choice for you.

It's about giving pre-meds all the information.

bth

This is getting comical.

The fact that you feel the need to be actively sought after speaks volumes...you don't want equal treatment, you want special treatment.

"Most activities do not exist for the sake of equality. They exist to serve their own purposes--and these purposes are undermined, sometimes fatally, when equality becomes the goal."

I understand that many people don't give a rats *ss about LGBT patients and docs. I do, and the AMA has reached out to me and the other LGBT student's at Touro and other DO schools. (Reached out = offered $$).

The AMA and MD med schools have come out in support of LGBT people, with unequivocal force. The AOA has made their position clear, they think its political, they don't think LGBT patients, docs or student groups need any kind of "support." bth

Congratulaions...the AMA has bought you off..."reached out = offered $$"? For what? To get you off their back?

The AMA / MD "support" of LGBT people is nothing more than political pandering. Let me remind you the AMA represents less than 30% of allopathic physicians, and an even smaller # of whom still practice...it caving to your demands is far from a blanket endorsement from all MDs that you have a legitimate purpose, argument and stance.

Your efforts to somehow insinuate the osteopathic profession as a whole is bigoted because it won't throw money your way is utterly pathetic.

 

[J1515]

Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you care about gay rights. That's great!

As far as being dangerous and insulting. The most I can say is . . . I'm sorry for the insult. I'm not sure what the dangerous part is.

As far as being ignorant, that's the one point on which I'd strongly disagree. I'd ask you to investigate the policy of the AMA, the AOA, MD med schools and DO med schools regarding LGBT patients, medical students and physicians.

I'm basing my assertions on hard facts.

I understand that many people don't give a rats *ss about LGBT patients and docs. I do, and the AMA has reached out to me and the other LGBT student's at Touro and other DO schools. (Reached out = offered $$).

The AMA and MD med schools have come out in support of LGBT people, with unequivocal force. The AOA has made their position clear, they think its political, they don't think LGBT patients, docs or student groups need any kind of "support."

bth

What do you even need support for? You are the one portraying LGBTs as unequals. Newsflash: being gay is not a handicap or a disability. You don't need support to approve of the decisions you make in your personal life

 

[bth7]

In my experience, this thread is a fairly good representation of the attitudes within the DO community and AOA towards LGBT people. This is the response the LGBT community has thus far received from the AOA. "This is comical." "This is pathetic." "This isn't about equality, this is about special treatment." etc.

Compare that to the September 2005 address of AMA President Edward Hill, MD to the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA). "I know that GLMA members and LGBT physicians have been treated unfairly by the AMA in the past. There is simply no excuse for discriminatory actions or exclusions based on sexual orientation or gender identity—none."

If the allopathic medical profession can argue that there is "no excuse" for discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, what is the response of the osteopathic medical profession to this kind of prejudice?

https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0708letters.pdf

 

[Bacchus]

I don't see what this group, and subsequent funding, is going to yield to you. By being officially recognized by Touro, what are you gaining? Sexual identity is a private matter. You should use your experiences as a homosexual man to help others like yourself. Your experiences as a gay man will undoubtedly shape how and what you practice, but you don't need a student group to tell you this. The osteopathic community is not banning you from practice or seeing patients that have same-sex relationships. If you want to be an activist, there are many organizations you can donate time to outside of Touro. Touro doesn't want to fund such a group and the AOA may not want to either, but this is not stopping you.

Stop trying to fly a flag that has no reason to be flown. Let your experiences guide you. You're responsible for yourself and regardless of what higher institutions tell you, they cannot take this identity away from you.

 

[bth7]

I don't see what this group, and subsequent funding, is going to yield to you. By being officially recognized by Touro, what are you gaining?

This may answer that question somewhat:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;113/6/1827.pdf

We seek to improve the curriculum, especially pediatrics. By improving our understanding of health problems in under-served communities, we can improve health outcomes.

But first we have to recognize the problem, acknowledge that it exists.

bth

 

[ChandutheMagici]

This is getting comical.

The fact that you feel the need to be actively sought after speaks volumes...you don't want equal treatment, you want special treatment.

"Most activities do not exist for the sake of equality. They exist to serve their own purposes--and these purposes are undermined, sometimes fatally, when equality becomes the goal."



Congratulaions...the AMA has bought you off..."reached out = offered $$"? For what? To get you off their back?

The AMA / MD "support" of LGBT people is nothing more than political pandering. Let me remind you the AMA represents less than 30% of allopathic physicians, and an even smaller # of whom still practice...it caving to your demands is far from a blanket endorsement from all MDs that you have a legitimate purpose, argument and stance.

Your efforts to somehow insinuate the osteopathic profession as a whole is bigoted because it won't throw money your way is utterly pathetic.

You're right on the money with all your arguments, dude. Unfortunately, I think they're wasted on this person. However, I could be wrong cause I'm A DO student. We tend to be insensitive, bigoted, and homophobic.

 

[J1515]

In my experience, this thread is a fairly good representation of the attitudes within the DO community and AOA towards LGBT people.

Wrong. This is a good representation of peoples' attitudes towards you as a person. How much longer are you going to play the role of victim? How much longer are you going to blame everyone else without taking a look in the mirror? It's always going to be something else. Doctors looked down on you during rotations because you were gay, you were a DO, you were <insert excuse here>. Take a look in the mirror. You are pissing people off - not because you are gay, not because you are a DO, but because you are trying to bring your personal life into medicine and want the rest of the world to validate your personal life decisions.

There were 'out of the closet' homosexual students in my class; everyone got along well. Nobody cared that they were gay and certainly none of them put it at the forefront of their medical education as you are doing.

 

[aimee21]

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;113/6/1827.pdf

We seek to improve the curriculum, especially pediatrics. By improving our understanding of health problems in under-served communities, we can improve health outcomes.

But first we have to recognize the problem, acknowledge that it exists.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that physicians need to understand the health problems in their communities - that's a given. Nor are we saying that specific concerns exist for the LGBT community. However, we are, quite frankly, annoyed with the "I'm a victim" tone of your arguments.

I read the article you linked and I agree with many points of it. Pediatricians do need to understand the issues their patients face when trying to understand their sexuality. However, this isn't a new concern - as the article stated, doctors have been addressing this for the past 26 years.

I understand why you want a curriculum to incorporate these issues, but there are better ways to go about it than trying to start a LGBT group in your medical school. Instead, join your pediatrics club and put together a lecture or a panel discussion for your classmates. You could also talk to your professors about improving this aspect of the curriculum, both in pediatrics and in patient care. Also, if your school has a curriculum committee, join that - you can then talk directly to the head honchos about LGBT adolescents.

I know I sound like a broken record, but you don't need the AOA or the AMA to "recognize" you in order to do any of that.

 

[bth7]

Physicians need to understand the health problems in their communities - that's a given. Nor are we saying that specific concerns exist for the LGBT community.

The health problems of the LGBT community are what's important in this discussion, from my point of view.

"Nor are we saying that specific concerns exist for the LGBT community."

Are you saying the specfic concerns do exist? Or don't exist? I think you are saying that specific concerns of the LGBT community do exist. Meaning, we both acknowledge that this community (and many others) have specific health concerns.

You say "that's a given." But it isn't. That's my issue: acknowledging that these specific health concerns exist.

The AMA & the AAP spell out those concerns, clearly; and this is reflected in the curricula of MD med schools. The AOA policy doesn't acknowledge these concerns; and this is reflected in the curricula of DO med schools.

bth

 

[J1515]

The AMA & the AAP spell out those concerns, clearly; and this is reflected in the curricula of MD med schools. The AOA policy doesn't acknowledge these concerns; and this is reflected in the curricula of DO med schools.

bth

What do allopathic students learn pertaining to LGBT healthcare that osteopathic students don't learn? Do you consciously make up lies and/or exaggerate?

 

[LSU Alex]

The AMA & the AAP spell out those concerns, clearly; and this is reflected in the curricula of MD med schools. The AOA policy doesn't acknowledge these concerns; and this is reflected in the curricula of DO med schools.
bth

Are you generalizing based on your one experience? At my school we've already had a guest presenter specifically for that subject. It's also been addresed at various points throughout other subjects (ie during H&P sections). You don't have to spell out the idea that you need to treat all human beings with respect. A resolution by the AOA or a sign on the wall isn't going to change what's in people's hearts. Maybe this type of thing was needed back in the day, but those pre-med students you are "trying to inform" of the injustices of DO school have been getting the "respect for all" message since Sesame Street.

 

[aimee21]

The health problems of the LGBT community are what's important in this discussion, from my point of view.

"Nor are we saying that specific concerns exist for the LGBT community."

Are you saying the specfic concerns do exist? Or don't exist? I think you are saying that specific concerns of the LGBT community do exist. Meaning, we both acknowledge that this community (and many others) have specific health concerns.

You say "that's a given." But it isn't. That's my issue: acknowledging that these specific health concerns exist.

The AMA & the AAP spell out those concerns, clearly; and this is reflected in the curricula of MD med schools. The AOA policy doesn't acknowledge these concerns; and this is reflected in the curricula of DO med schools.

Sorry, I meant to say "Nor are we saying that specific concerns don't exist for the LGBT community." I do acknowledge that there are health issues that affect the LGBT community, as have the other posters on this thread. However, if the health problems are what's important to you, why were you initial posts all about getting a student campus group at Touro and how glad you are that the AMA recognized your group by giving you money?

I'm pretty sure that these health issues don't pertain only to the LGBT community. As someone else has asked, what specifically is missing in the DO curriculum that is present in the MD curriculum? Have you encountered first hand a physician discriminating against or providing substandard care to a homosexual patient based solely on that patient's sexuality?

As far as I know, based on my personal experiences with doctors, my own included, a patient's sexuality has never been an issue. On my first visit to my gyn (who graduated from KCOM in 1990), he asked me what my sexuality was, I answered, and that was it. He didn't need the AOA to tell him to ask so he could provide the best care for me, it's pretty much common sense.

We don't need the AOA to acknowledge that concerns exist for the LBGT community to actually know that these concerns exist. I think you're fighting an unnecessary battle.

 

[bth7]

if the health problems are what's important to you, why were you initial posts all about getting a student campus group at Touro and how glad you are that the AMA recognized your group by giving you money?.

To me, that's the purpose of the student groups. To educate about health problems. To examine the cirriculum with regards to these specific issues. To suppliment the cirriculum with additional guest lectures, events, etc. Similiar in spirit to any other student group, e.g. the "wilderness medicine" club holding a lunchtime lecture about specific issues, immobilizing a fracture in a wilderness setting, assessing a patient in a remote location, preparing a patient for transport from a wilderness location, emergency tracheotomy, etc.

Many students form groups to further explore their focus of interest and to provide opportunities for other students to get some exposure: (Wilderness med focus group, Fertility and planned pregnancy, Developing nations/International med, Spanish-speaking focus group, etc).

Why treat differently groups focused on the issues related to transgender people?

What is wrong with groups focused on their medical care?

When is mammoplasty appropriate? How to use hormone therapy safely? What age is appropriate to intervene? When do you refer to psych and when to surgery? How to care for neonates who are sex indeterminate? [Intersex, chromosomal abnormalities, gender identity disorder, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, etc.] What are the differences in these etiologies of transexualism and how do they affect your treatment plan?

 

[homeboy]

Is there a defined need to have an official school-sponsored Wilderness Medicine club? Probably not, and the same goes for any other ancillary group that is merely seeking appropriations, recognition and use of school space: Muslim-American Student Association, Catholic Student Association, Taekwondo Enthusiast Student Association, etc...

One of the striking differences about the LGBT club, however, is the inextricable link between the supposed neutral sociomedical issues and the extremely political larger LGBT community. Now that alone is not a disqualifier, as I'm quite familiar with student groups that partake in activities as a group, representative of the university, when they shouldn't. But what this particular association beings with it is an overtly and extremely high level of in-your-face, ideological politicization.

In essence, you are demanding that the university, student body, and community as a whole embrace & promote your specific views towards the LGBT community, and associate disagreement with such as overt signs of bigotry & discrimination. Don't try and tell me this is only about "education". It is about wanting to elevate the LGBT community to the social, moral and legal equivalent of non-alternative lifestyles through seemingly legitimate means: medical education.

There is nothing wrong with being a transgender person. But equally, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with that transgender person's decisions and feeling uneasy about that lifestyle, and equally, there is nothing illegal about a private institution having the legal control to enact such a feeling (as per my previous comment about ROTC programs).

You dont' have the right to be free of the knowledge that others may disagree with you, no matter how much you try and infuse society with "education" to the contrary.

Yelling "discrimination" and "bigot" at every sign of non-compliance to ideologic consensus is no less than the definition of bigotry.

 

[jbone]

However, I could be wrong cause I'm A DO student. We tend to be insensitive, bigoted, and homophobic.

I hear you. I ran over 5 nuns, 3 children and a dog on the way to the hospital the other day...but who cares? not me.
This thread is great! Please, keep telling me how "Intolerant" I am because I'm a DO student.
People always plead for others to be tolerant UNTIL someone else's viewpoint is different than their own. Then all hell breaks loose and YOU are now the intolerant one. haha! carry on....

 

[bth7]

Is there a defined need to have an official school-sponsored Wilderness Medicine club? Probably not, and the same goes for any other ancillary group that is merely seeking appropriations, recognition and use of school space: Muslim-American Student Association, Catholic Student Association, Taekwondo Enthusiast Student Association, etc...

One of the striking differences about the LGBT club, however, is the inextricable link between the supposed neutral sociomedical issues and the extremely political larger LGBT community. Now that alone is not a disqualifier, as I'm quite familiar with student groups that partake in activities as a group, representative of the university, when they shouldn't. But what this particular association beings with it is an overtly and extremely high level of in-your-face, ideological politicization.

In essence, you are demanding that the university, student body, and community as a whole embrace & promote your specific views towards the LGBT community, and associate disagreement with such as overt signs of bigotry & discrimination. Don't try and tell me this is only about "education". It is about wanting to elevate the LGBT community to the social, moral and legal equivalent of non-alternative lifestyles through seemingly legitimate means: medical education.

There is nothing wrong with being a transgender person. But equally, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with that transgender person's decisions and feeling uneasy about that lifestyle, and equally, there is nothing illegal about a private institution having the legal control to enact such a feeling (as per my previous comment about ROTC programs).

You dont' have the right to be free of the knowledge that others may disagree with you, no matter how much you try and infuse society with "education" to the contrary.

Yelling "discrimination" and "bigot" at every sign of non-compliance to ideologic consensus is no less than the definition of bigotry.

I agree that the AOA and osteopathic med schools have the right to enact whatever feelings they wish to. More generally, I support the protection of all groups right to believe whatever they wish: gay, transgender, neo-Nazis, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, Christians, etc, etc.

You are correct, there is no absolute "need" for a Wilderness medicine club, nor an LGBT club. Rather, what's needed is transparency with regard to how decisions are made about which clubs are permitted. The point is being open about what are the criteria for exclusion.

Such criteria could be anything, depending on the values of the organization. Examples: no Jewish groups, No blacks, No gays, Only Men, Only Women, Only people under 25, etc.

In this case, the AOA and osteopathic medical schools permit exclusion of groups based on sexual orientation, the AMA and MD schools do not.

In other words, the AMA has ruled out sexual orientation as a valid criterion. You could still exclude a gay group for another reason (too political, too strident, not clinically relevant, etc) but not just because they are gay.

The AOA allows this type of criterion to be used.

This is a difference in how allopathic and osteopathic schools approach a specific issue.

Personally, I strongly think it should be changed, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it speaks poorly of us as a group. But in the meantime, I recognize that others within the AOA and DO schools may not want this to change, as they feel it endorses a value; namely, that LGBT student groups are "uneccessary", or "too political", or that LGBT groups represent an "unwanted agenda".

The AMA and MD schools have made it clear: these groups do not represent an agenda. They represent a set of values that MD's wish to endorse. Osteopathic medicine likewise has made its position clear: DO's are not ready to endorse LGBT student groups, nor the broader set of ideas these groups might represent.

bth

 

[J1515]

None of this has anything to do with how you are going to practice medicine, and I think you've seen first hand that it's not going to change in the near future because we go to medical school to learn medicine, not to socialize or push political agendas. As has already been stated, doctors have been dealing with LGBT issues in pediatrics and all other fields for a number of years now. Starting a group will not change anything, will not make doctors more sensitive, or make doctors more aware.

Now if people want to fight for something that WILL effect osteopathic medical practice, I think everyone needs to read this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=650043

This is a lot more important to DOs than not being able to start a group at school or wanting to change the initials.

 

[homeboy]

In this case, the AOA and osteopathic medical schools permit exclusion of groups based on sexual orientation, the AMA and MD schools do not.
…
bth

It is NOT just orientation, it is the “broader set of ideas” which accompanies said group, and you explicitly admit that….you’re explicitly admitting that the “broader set of ideas” affiliated with the LGBT community are associated with the local LGBT group.

You have a sexual orientation that carries with it extremely political baggage of a clearly defined agenda, and because of this, you interpret non-compliance with the “broader set of ideas” affiliated with the LGBT community as tantamount to bigotry & non-acceptance of your orientation.

In essence, the only non-discriminatory, non-bigoted position is that which is defined by the LGBT community. Do you not see the irony? Do you not see the hypocrisy in demanding someone accept your point of view?

As people have mentioned numerous times, the school is NOT being discriminatory towards ANYONE training & practicing medicine as an LGBT person, but that acceptance DOES NOT REQUIRE the combined acceptance of the political ideology that it invariably accompanies, and consequently, the endorsement of a student group that would predictably promote that ideology.

 

[bth7]

You interpret non-compliance with the “broader set of ideas” affiliated with the LGBT community as tantamount to bigotry & non-acceptance of your orientation.

Those two issues are of lesser significance to me, in comparison to the main issue: the difference in the policy & attitudes towards LGBT physicians, patients and health care issues between the AOA & DO medical schools and the AMA and MD medical schools.

This is my original post:

"Dear friends,

As many of you know, allopathic and osteopathic medicine still have their differences.

One of those differences is the attitude towards LGBT patients, physicians and medical students.

MD's protect lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. DO's don't. (https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0708letters.pdf http://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0808letters.pdf )""

The point is that MD med schools take a different approach on this issue than the DO schools.

As a small thought experiment, I ask you to consider this. If only people like me care about this issue isn't the policy difference a good thing from your point of view?

Are you not happy about this difference between MD and DO schools? This policy is an effective way of keeping people like me (i.e., politically motivated gay people with an agenda to push) out of osteopathic medicine.

In other words, the current policy would seem to encourage people looking for supportive/protective policies for LGBT people to attend MD schools. Likewise, it would encourage people who don't think LGBT people should be included in non-discrim policies to attend DO schools.

Of course, there are many other factors to that decision. But, for those who care about this issue, this information supports a more informed choice about which degree to strive for.

bth

 

[bth7]

If anyone want to learn more about LGBT specific health care needs and research, check out Stanford U's group on the topic.

http://med.stanford.edu/lgbt/

bth

 

[bigDinLV]

You might be right about osteopathic medicine. Apparently, there is no place for LGBT people in osteopathic medicine, at least according to the AOA.

The AMA feels differently. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee.shtml


I think the DO community should be allowed to have whatever LGBT policy it wishes. But, I also think that pre-meds should know that the AMA actively seeks LGBT medical students, whereas the DO community allows schools to ban LGBT groups.

Let the pre-meds know. They can decide which system they want to be a part of. Obviously, if you're an LGBT person, this would be an important choice for you.

It's about giving pre-meds all the information.

bth

Nice job there in doing the selective quoting of posts. I say there is no need for this crap in medicine, after making a statement about wanting a straight white male group and how it should be rejected. Then you selectively quote one line of my post taking it out of context. Then go on a rant twisting it to say that there is no place for gay/transgender/whatever people in medicine.

Oddly enough you didn't take the time to make a direct response to what I had to say. You had no appropriate response to my post. You have no valid arguments. You have nothing and you deserve nothing.

If you get group money for being gay, I want money for being straight. Fair is fair right?

Then I want money for being white. Then I want money for being male. Then I want money for being from the midwest. Then I want money for.....

 

[bth7]

Nice job there in doing the selective quoting of posts. I say there is no need for this crap in medicine, after making a statement about wanting a straight white male group and how it should be rejected. Then you selectively quote one line of my post taking it out of context. Then go on a rant twisting it to say that there is no place for gay/transgender/whatever people in medicine.

Oddly enough you didn't take the time to make a direct response to what I had to say. You had no appropriate response to my post. You have no valid arguments. You have nothing and you deserve nothing.

If you get group money for being gay, I want money for being straight. Fair is fair right?

Then I want money for being white. Then I want money for being male. Then I want money for being from the midwest. Then I want money for.....

I'll endeavor to respond more directly.

Essentially I am agreeing with part of your assessment. I am saying that there's no policy supporting the formation of LGBT groups in osteopathic medicine.

I understand the analogy about straight white males from the midwest. I don't have any problem with such a group forming. The AOA currently forbids discrimination against groups based on race and gender - therefore, your group would be protected by AOA policy (at least the white male part).

(As an aside, it seems worth pointing out that the overwhelming majority of the AOA leadership and virtually all its past presidents are straight, white males from the midwest.)

My point is that there is a place, and a protected one, for LGBT groups in allopathic medicine. The American Association of Medical Colleges even has a guide for LGBT students and patients, with specific guidelines for faculty and curriculum development. http://www.aamc.org/members/gsa/glbt.htm

In contrast, the policy of the AOA does not currently provide for a place for LGBT-type groups, no training for faculty, no LGBT-related curriculum guidelines.

My broader point is that these days MDs and DOs are very similar. One difference is the policy of allopathic (AMA & AAMC) and osteopathic (AACOM & AOA) organizations towards LGBT-related issues.

The question is: Is this a difference we want?

bth