Osteopathic Ophthalmology Programs.

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daact

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I am currently a 3rd year and applying for osteopathic ophthalmology programs. I was wondering if anyone had opinions of the 9programs out there:

1. Illinois, Chicago
2. Detroit Consortium
Pontiac Osteopathic
St. John-Oakland hospital in Madison Heights
3 Genesys Regional Medical Center in Grand Blanc
4. Grand Rapids
5. St. john's in Far Rockaway NY
6. Doctors HOspital North, OHIO
7. Grandview Hospital, OHIO
8. TULSA, OK
9. PCOM

THANK YOU!

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i'm curious to know too. i never knew these existed!
 
If you go to the Detroit consortium, be prepared to drive. Those residents spend a lot of time driving (and I mean A LOT). It can literally be two hours between hospitals. I don't know if this has changed, but 3 or 4 years ago the calls came through a calling service, so you had no ability to triage calls. A resident would basically get a call from the service saying, "you have to see this patient at this hospital in room X".
I know that on more than one occasion they would show up only to be told that the primary team meant to page ortho. That mistake happens everywhere, but it's not nearly as bad when you can just call them back to find out that's what they wanted. And that's not even the worst that I've heard from there.

That said, they get to see a ton of pathology, and they're well trained.

Dave
 
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3 or 4 years ago the calls came through a calling service, so you had no ability to triage calls. A resident would basically get a call from the service saying, "you have to see this patient at this hospital in room X".

That's f'd up. talk about the opposite of what a "consult" is supposed to be.
 
If you go to the Detroit consortium, be prepared to drive. Those residents spend a lot of time driving (and I mean A LOT). It can literally be two hours between hospitals. I don't know if this has changed, but 3 or 4 years ago the calls came through a calling service, so you had no ability to triage calls. A resident would basically get a call from the service saying, "you have to see this patient at this hospital in room X".
I know that on more than one occasion they would show up only to be told that the primary team meant to page ortho. That mistake happens everywhere, but it's not nearly as bad when you can just call them back to find out that's what they wanted. And that's not even the worst that I've heard from there.

That said, they get to see a ton of pathology, and they're well trained.

Dave

I trained here and agree with there being a lot of driving (I recommend you own not lease a car). You have to cover hospitals as far South as Downtown Detroit and as far North as Ponitac which could mean a 30 mile trip on the 75 freeway. The other hospitals are in Madison Heights and Warren and the resident clinic is in the Eastside of Detroit. You can mapquest this info to get an idea of the territory. Add in attendance at the monthly grand rounds in East Lansing (since the program is a Michigan State University program) monthly grand rounds at Beaumont (Royal Oak) and weekly grand rounds at Kresge (also downtown) and you have a nice well rounded experience.

As far as the consult thing, you would have to be a nitwit, masochist, or very passive resident to not triage calls. I hope the current residents are not seriously just showing up without calling ahead.

I had all the hospitals general and ER numbers in my speed dial so as long as the answering service could provide me with a patient name and room # I would call the hospital to find out how urgent the problem was and what had been done so far. That way I could stack up routine consults and pop them out in an efficient and orderly fashion. The ER is more pressing, of course, but I would still at least speak personally to the ordering resident or attending to get the scoop and make sure a CT would be ready for me to look at when I got there. I hate wasted time.

Since 2 security guards at the downtown hospital were killed during my time there, I indicated that I would only go downtown after dark if the patient's eyeball was literally hanging out of his head...otherwise I'd see it in the morning. Sorry not worth it to risk my life to avoid triaging calls.
 
As far as the consult thing, you would have to be a nitwit, masochist, or very passive resident to not triage calls. I hope the current residents are not seriously just showing up without calling ahead.

That's how I would have dealt with it as well, however, my understanding is that (at least a few years ago), this was not allowed by the department. Essentially, if you got called, you were expected to go see it as expediently as possible.

Dave
 
hey.

i've heard good things about the PCOM program. apparently, a few years ago they had someone match into a retina fellowship.

good luck.
 
Can soneone clarify this confusion for me. If I wanted to to do an elective as a 4th year at Detriot Consortium, do I do it at St. John-oakland hospital or Pontiac Hospital?

Are these two different residency programs? If so do I have to apply to them separately? Which is a better program?

Thank you.
 
Can soneone clarify this confusion for me. If I wanted to to do an elective as a 4th year at Detriot Consortium, do I do it at St. John-oakland hospital or Pontiac Hospital?

Are these two different residency programs? If so do I have to apply to them separately? Which is a better program?

Thank you.

This is one program with half of the funding coming from each hospital. Just decide which attending you prefer to spend most time with in the office and OR. I don't get along so well sometimes with women but men seem to love me so I went through POH as an MS4 just to play it safe. This was after I had done a month elsewhere to improve my knowledge and skills so I would show up and shine. You should of course be sure to spend time at both offices and at the resident clinic and go to any and all lectures you can. Dr. Rubin is the director at the resident clinic and he likes to ask questions so you better answer them right.

In my unbiased opinion the Detroit program is the strongest and has a good track record re fellowship placement.

Clinic is clinic no matter where you go but you should make sure you are in a program where you do have your own patients in a resident clinic format. We had resident glaucoma and retina specialty days once or twice a month.

Surgery is surgery and the caseload will depend on your skill and agressiveness. If you are a scary surgeon, you will be hard pressed to have an attending give you one of his/her cases. If you have good hands and judgement you will get a lot of freedom and cases. I was the first resident to get to switch to topical cases and I was able to get the hospital to order me choppers and the director let me start doing that as well. You get a well rounded phaco experience using AMO and Alcon lenses and the Legacy, Infiniti, and Sovereign White Star machines. As far as resident cases go, if you look for them and follow up you will find them, if you want them to fall in your lap and magically be scheduled for you then you will be S.O.L.

I already mentioned that the didactics are very good. Along with MSU, Beaumont and Kresge events we are also invited to Henry Ford's events. Kresge's lectures are excellent, and Beaumont mixes up some basic science with case presentations where the patients are present to be examined. At MSU we get lectures and wet labs which are very good, the neuro-ophth is fantastic. We also get monthly retina lectures through a Beaumont attending just for our program.

A great strength of the subspecialty experience is that you can draw upon the excellent attendings in the Detroit area of which there are many. I did my retina, plastics, cornea, and glaucoma through Beaumont's attendings, I did peds at Children's which is where everyone in town goes (KEI, Beaumont, Ford, and us), and neuro I did at MSU and Ford. Other residents have done glaucoma and neuro at KEI and had great experiences.

Residents in my program who I know personally have gone on to do fellowships in a variety of specialties but I think as a whole D.O. ophthos tend to lean towards general ophtho. My senior resident did glaucoma at KEI and is now an attending there. My next year senior did peds at Children's. Before them one resident did both a 2-year plastics fellowship at Beaumont and peds at Children's. One of the plastics attendings at Beaumont is a grad from my program, and one of the retina attendings is a grad who did retina at KEI and Neuro at Wills. I am not sure who has gone where since I left and who else went elsewhere. But if you are a strong resident and are interested there is opportunity to work with well respected attendings affiliated with fellowship programs who can recommend you for their own or other programs. Me, I had no interest.

I hope this helps. I really enjoyed my program and felt I had excellent training. I have little to say about the other programs because I only rotated through the AOA Michigan programs and so my info on the non-MI programs is based on rumors and hearsay, not all good. The other MI programs are fair and if you have no where else to go, well, I guess you would go there. I just felt they were little and based in small towns and didn't offer a whole lot for my style of learning though I suppose you would have a lot of time to read.
 
Dear Opthtobean,

I have scheduled an elective at POH. I was wondering, will doing an elective there help me to get a traditional internship at POH. Won't I have to do another elective there if I'm an intern at POH? I am really confused with this whole process.

By doing an ophtho elective at POH, am I showcasing myself for the ophtho program or their traditional internship program?

Thank you so much for your help ophthobean.

Can you PM your name to me. So when Dr. French asks me how I know about this program, I can say your name.

Thanks!

dan
 
I'm sorry for the stupid question, but I didn't know these existed. Are these spots in addition to the regular # of spots in a residency? Are osteopathic programs completely separate w/different PDs, interviews, etc?
 
When you do your elective at POH you will be only involved in the ophtho residency activities. I don't know that it would help/hinder chances for an internship there. You don't have to do your internship at POH or even at a place with an ophtho residency program. If you were an intern at POH I would imagine you would probably do another elective ophtho rotation.

I rotated as an MS4 and did my internship in So. California. I felt it kept me very neutral and let my impression left from the rotation and interview remain strong. I didn't apply for internship outside of CA but I made sure to visit the programs in the fall of my intern year and managed to get to all the MI and Ohio interviews. I had to fly back out for Philly.

Just go and do well and plan to do your internship where you really want to. If you find a program with good elective time, take that one as you can use it for ophtho rotations.
 
Can anybody confirm that the internship year will be linked to DO ophthalmology residencies starting in 2008?

I know that 3 programs are linked this year but I'm not absolutely sure when the other programs will start doing this.
 
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Can anybody confirm that the internship year will be linked to DO ophthalmology residencies starting in 2008?

I know that 3 programs are linked this year but I'm not absolutely sure when the other programs will start doing this.
 
Hi everyone, I'm going to be one of the new ophthalmology residents at the Detroit Consortium this July. I know that there has been some discussion regarding making the program linked to an internship, but no decision has been made as far as I know. All the programs are separate entities and will decide themselves if they are to be linked. What I can tell you is that the program is wonderful providing scores of opportunities to the residents. I can also tell you that the quality of people involved with the program from the attendings down to the residents is phenomenal and I couldn't be happier to be a part of it-- of course I am biased. Let me know if I can answer any of your questions.
 
Hey DOEYEGUY can I email you with some questions. You can PM (private message) your email address. Thanks.
 
thanks for your posts ophthobean and DOEYEGUY. always nice to hear from ppl actually in programs (and with positive things to say).

DOEYEGUY, what excatly do you mean by "scores of opportunities for residents"? do you mean in terms of research? getting fellowships?

Is it really tough to match at detroit w/o doing a roation during MSIV?

thanks for you input guys.
 
What I meant by scores of opportunities is this....

The Detroit program uses the best of both worlds. You have the community hospital bases that have pretty darn good pathology as well as bread and butter cases + you do your subspecialty rotations and attend lectures at larger allopathic teaching hospitals. Opportunities in being able to learn from and associate with people from Henry Ford hospital, Kresge Eye, and Beaumont, all with fellowships. You get a lot of exposure, is what i meant from the scores of opportunities. I hope this clarifies things...
As far as doing rotations there... It is obviously to your advantage to rotate with the program and spend time in the resident clinic. I am doing an IM internship at POH this year and this helped me tremendously in getting the residency. It's not necessary... the other resident coming in with me did her internship elsewhere, but in my personal case it was worth it. I happen to love POH so it's really been a great ride. I hope this helps.
 
Can anybody confirm that the internship year will be linked to DO ophthalmology residencies starting in 2008?

I know that 3 programs are linked this year but I'm not absolutely sure when the other programs will start doing this.

What programs are now linked? Do you happen to know if any derm programs are linking now as well?
 
What programs are now linked? Do you happen to know if any derm programs are linking now as well?

According to http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/
the programs offering linked internships are tulsa, olympia fields, columbus, and dayton.

I seem to remember getting an email for the AOA a month or two ago saying that the each specialty had decided whether or not to link their residencies to internships. I remember that ophthalmologists had decided to link while derm had decided to keep the intern match separate.

I'm not sure when they will begin doing this. Hopefully next year.
 
OphthoBean,

Could you PM the 2 programs you said were worth going too...cause of their location. PCOM is in Philly - Wills is there, Doctor's in Columbus - Go to OSU , and Detroit - Beaumont, Kresge, and sometimes Henry Ford...to me that counts as 3 places...could you PM me since you seem to have experience.
 
OphthoBean,

Could you PM the 2 programs you said were worth going too...cause of their location. PCOM is in Philly - Wills is there, Doctor's in Columbus - Go to OSU , and Detroit - Beaumont, Kresge, and sometimes Henry Ford...to me that counts as 3 places...could you PM me since you seem to have experience.

OphthoBean, would you mind posting that information publicly on this tread?

I'm kind of interested to know which other program you think is particularly strong; as are other students I'm sure.
 
As a DO that rotated at PCOM, Doctors, Wills, Geisinger, Temple, and Scheie I can put my 2 cents in on PCOM and Doctors. I should mention that I'm also a current ophtho resident.

PCOM offers fantastic didactics via Wills morning lectures, grand rounds, conferences, etc. You also rotate with some amazing oculoplastics and neurophtho people as well as doing peds at either CHOP or St. Christophers - can't remember which but both filled w/ tons of pathology. Their surgical volume is typically one of the highest among DO programs, but it all depends on how aggressive you are as a senior. I know that one of their former residents finished a peds fellowship, one recent resident also did a glaucoma fellowship. Their program is going through a major transition right now - old program director left, some new attendings. They used to cover several hospitals for call scattered throughout the city so if you're averse to driving in the city, you might be in some trouble.

Doctors in Columbus, OH is on a huge upswing. They go to morning lectures every day of the week at Ohio State and have the opportunity to rotate w/ OSU attendings for their subspecialty requirements. The newly-built Eye Center of Columbus is comprised of about 40 ophtho's, many former OSU attendings and/or residents that also offers subspecialty rotations for the residents. The surgical volume increased substantially this year - from about 40 to 50 cataracts to approximately 100 for this year according to my sources. They do peds at Children's Hospital in Columbus which I've heard is filled w/ pathology and offers lots of surgical experience. Their new clinic is down the road from Doctors West - where they take ER call and hospital consults. The equipment was not out of date compared to other resident eye clinics that I've been to and has pretty much everything a practice needs. One of their former residents is doing cornea at Ohio State and another former resident did both cornea and glaucoma fellowships at OSU.

As far as the linking question. . . all DO programs must be linked for the residency class starting 2008.

There are also new programs in Las Vegas and the start of a formerly defunct program in Erie, PA that I'm not sure were mentioned.

I won't go into the MD programs since this is an osteopathic ophthalmology forum. Hope this helps and remember that the opinions voiced hear are entirely based on personal experience, and in certain cases, are based on old information or 'what it was like when I was a student/resident, etc' and no longer valid. . . Good luck to all DO's going into ophtho!
 
i am confused about these programs being osteopathic ophthalmology programs... what exactly are these and can md's apply for them??? thanks in advance...
 
sorry dude. but these are only for osteopathic schools (DO). But I know in the future they MIGHT be opening these residences to both allopathic and osteopathic students.
 
out of curiosity, how competitive is it to get these DO slots? Comparable to sfmatch?
 
i'll post this for everyone. . . asked about details regarding Geisinger and the "DO friendliness" in the dept. . .

there is 1 current DO attending in the dept. 2 of their recent former residents were both DO's and were both residents at the same time - almost unheard of in the world of allopathic programs. incidentally, they are both doing awesome fellowships.

Geisinger as a whole is very "DO friendly". they have a solid relationship w/ PCOM for accepting DO students on rotations and accept *many* DO's into their residency programs, no matter what the field of interest.

concerning their ophtho program, their chairman is awesome and his attitude trickles down. it is a small dept - they lost a plastics attending 2 years ago, no neurophth, no path but they rotate at Wills for path, only 1 retina guy.

solid, underrated program w/ above average surgical volume. regardless, you should know that Danville, PA isn't exactly a thriving metropolis to live in. if you're OK w/ the small town atmosphere and backwards attitude, you should be fine, though. hope this helps. . .

also, as for the previous post concerning MD's applying to DO programs - a bit discriminatory but for a reason. for so long, DO's never had the slimmest of chances to get into an MD residency. things have slowly changed but some programs still won't even consider the best of DO applicants. DO programs will never accept MD students into their programs for as long as osteopathic residency programs, in general, exist. until there are no bias against DO students, that will never happen.
 
I think its just as hard to get into the DO programs cause there are so few slots with a lot of applicant's...obviously not as large as the SF match. Most of the DO programs only take 1 person a year with the exception of a few programs...1 or 2 to be exact. You still have to be at the top of your class to at least have a realistic chance, which is the impression I got from interviewing this year. If there are 21 DO schools now, I think about 15 programs with a spot or 2, I'd think its still tough...I thought about applying to allopathic programs, but you don't really get as much hands on experience earlier in the residency. I know some programs, you'll help out with cataract surgery as an intern or first year. I think the main downside is surgical volume in some programs, didactics varies from program to program, and not all residents have their own clinic to work in...or not as busy as the allopathic programs. However, academically, I've seen DO residents score high on the yearly OKAPS in the 80s just because of their motivation and reading daily...without a strong didactic base...so I think the quality of a program depends on the resident to take the initiative...if you want to learn more or do more surgery, you have to go looking for it. Just my small experience rotating at the 4 linked programs...and others as well.
 
I'm a 4th year medical student that rotated at POH/Detroit, Grandview, Oklahoma State University.

Overall, the program I liked best was POH/Detroit due to the balance of surgery and didactics. Surgeries are usually on Wednesdays and Lectures can vary some are in the morning and some are in the afternoon at a coffee shop. They also recently started to due the BCS series as a lecture format with all 3 of the main attendings. I thought it was a great idea cause some are question and answer format, while others are straight lectures. During the session the attendings ask a ton of questions to both the students and the residents. They have a pretty high volume residents clinic and have a glaucoma specialists show up 1 time a month on Thursday mornings I believe. You go to San Antonio for the review course. Attend CORO TV @ MSUCOM. Wet labs are at MSUCOM. Go to Henry Ford, Kresge Eye, Beaumont for didactics. (can't interview here since you need to be an intern) I think they have 2 spots a year. Residents just as laid back as in Tulsa and great to work with.

Grandview: not as much didactics, resident run and they pay attendings to lecture each week or every other week. They have a pretty busy resident clinic and as a student you are there for most of your rotation. The program director will either take a student or a resident for a half day 2 times a week. You usually alternate with the first year resident. That is all the contact you get. They have everything a residents clinic would need since alumni donate equipment each year. They are suppose to get a similation machine this year to help out with surgery. There is adequate volume, however, as a PGY 1 or 2 you set up cases for the senior. Each year they take 1, except every 2 years they'll take 2. Upside, spend time at Univ of Cincinati in the beginning and go to Lancaster course in Maine. Attend CORO TV at MSUCOM. Not much wet labs and pig eyes. Has a lot of call since only program in Dayton at Good Samaritan, Miami Valley (Level 1 trauma), Grandview. Interview was intense, asked me question on ophthalmology, internal medicine protocols, while I was suturing on a suture board. Also made me take one of those Meyer-Briggs personality tests (which I acutally saw on Blogthings on my friends Myspace.com page, which isn't really accurate since its only 30 instead of the 100 questions, so that's kind of misleading to use). Residents not as laid back as Tulsa, but still good to work with.

Oklahoma State Univ @ TRMC, now OSUMC...great for surgical volume. Not much didactics, mostly resident run...starting to set up lectures online. No neuro-ophthalmology rotation for the residents. No big university program affiliation for lectures. You need to drive to Triad Eye Muskogee (80 miles + tolls) each day when there are LASIK and cataract surgery, 2 days a week. Then the other 2 days, your at Triad Eye in Tulsa observing LASIK and cataract surgeries here. There is a residents clinic with adequate volume, but not as busy as the POH and Grandview programs. Also, they residents will see patients at the TRIAD eye surgery center and cataract institute on Mondays...however, the schedule may have changed. The residents and students can also go to Ranch Acres with another attending who has been the first to do a lot of Ophthalmology stuff in both the DO and MD world, even created his own alcon lens and one of the first to use a LASER in the US. There is also Eye Center of Tulsa and TRMC Surgical center available for surgery. As an intern, you'll max out your cataract surgery requirement. You'll be doing surgery alone during your PGY 1, 2, 3 years after the internship and well equiped to handle difficult cases like post capsule ruptures and vitrectomy with the attending observing. You'll see more refractive and anterior chamber surgeries like PRK, RK, Intraocular contact lens implants, etc. It's the best place is all you want is surgery, however, I believe the program is improving didactically now. They also attend CORO TV @ MSUCOM. As student you get to phaco and work on pig eyes as much as you want. I got a ton of experience with the phaco machine, capsularhexis, inserting extra lens, and in general getting comfortable in the OR. I also got to use my experience here to improve my knowledge of surgery and taking certain techniques from the variety of attendings. The one difference why OK has a ton of surgery is Optometrists are allowed to do laser surgeries, so Ophthalmology focus on surgery and get referrels from rural OK and Tulsa Optometrist for cataracts, pterygium, etc. So its more like they are the primary care eye doctors, while Ophth just focus on surgery only. Some of the residents in teh past went to Yale and Wills for glacoma I think. The 2 seniors want to do retina and have scored in the 80-90s in the OKAPs...which is higher than most MD programs since they read a lot on their own. Interview was really laid back and casual. There was talks of having 2 spots this year, but didn't get the extra funding, so as of now just 1 per year. GREAT residents and interns...easy to work with, smart, fun to hang out on weekends with.

I spent a day at Doctors, however, they got to OSU and the Childrens Hospital of Columbus. Interview with 4 attendings, no residents...fairly intense with questions, but fairly honest in what they ask. No medical or ophthalmology questions. Residents seem easy to work with, haven't had much interaction with them since I really didn't spend time here.

So far Tracked/linked are Doctors, Grandview, OSU, Chicago...that's all I applied to this year. Match is in a few weeks and they go through the regular match. Although all the programs are fairly honest and let you know if you are a good vs. bad candidate. I would go to any of the above programs minus the one in Illinois since you usually need to graduate from CCOM to get a spot there. I won't put rankings or anything from my perspective.

Good Luck to everyone. To get an interview at certain places, ITS REQUIRED to rotate. They figure if you take the time to spend with them, they'll take the time to get to know you...so rotate at as many of the link programs. Save all the unlinked ones for intern year. I focused on all the tracked ones that would give me a shot. I got LOR from all the attendings I had and didn't have one until I rotated in Oklahoma with the old program director.
 
Forgot to mention, the older Ophthalmologist told me during my few days with him was that Detroit and Columbus were the 2 top programs in his mind due the affiliation with big MD eye hospitals and schools. I'd probably add PCOM since they go to lectures at Wills. Also, he still does Cataract, LASIK, and Laser stuff and still tries to investigate some things and do research...so it shows that you can work as long as you want in the field...he graduated from Kansas City as well.
 
I think another factor you need to look at very closely when considering a residency are the current residents in the program. These are people you are going to have to work very closely with for a couple years and you need to have quality people of character that you are going to get along with and fit in with. I obviously can't say enough about the quality of people in my program, but this is something you really need to think hard about. Obviously this goes for any residency program, but it is especially true in Ophthalmology because of the amount of cooperation required between residents organizing call and covering 4 hospitals. Just another thing to look for when rotating at different places.
 
Just curious. Is it any harder for a DO to find a job after the residency. Two of my recruiters said that about 75 % of ophthalmology practices prefer MD over DO applicants.
 
I don't even think there is remotely enough DO ophthalmology graduates each year to even come close to having anything that resembles a valid statistic.
 
so there's only 9 do ophtho programs out there? is that true? so how many total spots between the programs are there for new residents each year?
 
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