Osteopathic Plastic Surgery

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Deemoraad

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Curious to know.
How competitive is it for DO's to match in to allopathic surgery residencies, preferably plastic surgery? Are there osteopathic residencies available in plastic surgery?
the field has sparked up interest in me and I'm wondering how hard it might be to do this as a DO.
 
Curious to know.
How competitive is it for DO's to match in to allopathic surgery residencies, preferably plastic surgery? Are there osteopathic residencies available in plastic surgery?
the field has sparked up interest in me and I'm wondering how hard it might be to do this as a DO.

Plastic Surgery is going to be extremely difficult to get into no matter what letters are behind your name. There are DO plastic surgery fellowships, but if my quick AOA search is correct theres only 7, compared to 70 allo ones. Also, I've heard plastics is one of the few fields were allo programs tend not to take DO's (probably cause there are 1000's of highly quailifed MD's who also want the 100 or so allo spots). I wouldn't say its impossible for a DO to land an allo plastics fellowship, but I can't imagine its very common. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

General Surgery on the other hand, although competitive, is certainly obtainable as a DO who wants to train at an allo program. There are also a pretty good number of DO General Surgery residencies. I wouldn't think your chances of being a surgeon would be any lower if you are a DO or an MD. Sure, you might not land that coveted Hopkins surgery residency, but remember as a DO you can train at both allo and osteo residencies, whereas MD's cannot match into osteo programs (in that way it might actually be better to be a DO, but I guess thats debatable). From what I hear, although still competitive, gen surgery is not the top-tier/most competitive/everyone wants to match in it field it used to be (that is now Derm, Ortho, Ophtho). If its your dream you can make it happen.

I'm just happy I have no interest in any of those high competitive fields and I can cruise into a quality program in something I like without having to worry about publications, 95th percentile board scores, etc. etc.
 
Bulletpoints:

-Going to be so hard from either side of the coin - DO or MD
-Probably, altogether, the most competitive specialty to match at the moment
-Going ACGME (MD) may be impossible. ACGME has two tracks - integrated and surgical residency (ENT, G-surg, and Ortho) -> PRS fellowship (they call it a second residency, but it's a fellowship). To be honest, G-surg -> PRS for ACGME is likely the only way to do it from that side, but I'd still put it into the highly unlikely to don't bother range.
-Going from the AOA (DO) side will still be very tough, but this is your best shot. At this point in time, the AOA model works off the surg residency -> fellowship route (with almost everyone, it seems, going g-surg -> PRS)
-There are currently 7 AOA PRS fellowships (http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f030ea3666b58f6104b52857601dc132e77e) and, from what I've been told, usually around 100 g-surg AOA grads a year (though there is no guarantee whatsoever that all these people want PRS)
-From what I can gather, your best chance is to do a g-surg residency at a place with a PRS fellowship and really make yourself known.

Keep in mind that you're 90% likely to change your mind about specialty choice during medical school, so keep your options open. Good luck!
 
Bulletpoints:

-Going to be so hard from either side of the coin - DO or MD
-Probably, altogether, the most competitive specialty to match at the moment
-Going ACGME (MD) may be impossible. ACGME has two tracks - integrated and surgical residency (ENT, G-surg, and Ortho) -> PRS fellowship (they call it a second residency, but it's a fellowship). To be honest, G-surg -> PRS for ACGME is likely the only way to do it from that side, but I'd still put it into the highly unlikely to don't bother range.
-Going from the AOA (DO) side will still be very tough, but this is your best shot. At this point in time, the AOA model works off the surg residency -> fellowship route (with almost everyone, it seems, going g-surg -> PRS)
-There are currently 7 AOA PRS fellowships (http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f030ea3666b58f6104b52857601dc132e77e) and, from what I've been told, usually around 100 g-surg AOA grads a year (though there is no guarantee whatsoever that all these people want PRS)
-From what I can gather, your best chance is to do a g-surg residency at a place with a PRS fellowship and really make yourself known.

Keep in mind that you're 90% likely to change your mind about specialty choice during medical school, so keep your options open. Good luck!

Just to add to your good information, the 7 AOA PRS fellowships offer a combined 24 spots for PGY 6 and 7.
 
The way people describe it, sounds almost impossible from the ACGME side and plain impossible from AOA side.
 
2010 NRMP match data by state and specialty:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsbystate2010.pdf

39 DO's matched into general surgery, 3 into orthopedic surgery, and 1 into ENT. 0 matched into an integrated plastics residency. To be fair, there aren't many integrated spots available in the first place (only 20 accredited programs according to MCW's website) so I'm sure only the best from the best schools actually match into them.

Is there a website where one can check how many residents match into an allopathic PRS fellowship?
 
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You guys are mostly on but you're missing one huge detail. Talk to anyone from the various plastic surgery professional associations and they'll all tell you the same thing: if plastics is all youve ever wanted to do all your life, do the AOA spots and be the best so you'll get them since the best 100 (or whatever) MDs will get the ACGME spots every time. BUT!!! They say if you aren't the top 7 candidates in america, dont worry....

wait for it....

plastics is actually *very* easy to get into as a fellowship.

go ahead. Tell me i'm wrong. call bs. ask any plastic surgeon. They'll tell you the same thing. I'm interested in plastics, i've talked to them ad nauseum about it. You need to be 1) better than most at surgery and 2) extremely creative/quick on your feet. From what Ive been told the plastic surgery fellowships out there sometimes (not always) dont even fill 100% because the amount of people who show interest and have sufficient manual dexterity usually is smaller than the number of fellowship spots out there.

Every plastic surgeon i've talked to (prob 10 now) said that exact same thing. The plastics residency is the most elite thing in existance and based wholly on your intelligence. The fellowship doesn't give a damn about your intelligence, they want people who can think on their feet exceptionally and wont make dumb mistakes during surgery.

They figure if youre even 'just barely above average' they can teach you to be an expert plastic surgeon, but they cant teach someone how to be artistically creative with the surgery, as is often required. Note: I'd still tell you to be as good of a candidate as you possibly can in every single way. But I'm going to dispel the ridiculous myth that the plastics fellowships are anything like the plastics residency. They target two polar opposite kind of people. The geniuses and the people who would actually make good plastic surgeons, respectively.
 
Here's my check list for plastic surgery:

1. Get into medschool (_Check_)
2. Study hard, learn and do well in all my classes first two years (______)
3. Study hard and do the best I possibly can on Step I (______)
4. Start rotations, and learn as much as I can and get the best eval I can (______)
5. If I still wanna do plastics at that point, then I'll decide to apply for the AOA spots or just general surgery (ACGME/AOA) and go from there (______)
 
You guys are mostly on but you're missing one huge detail. Talk to anyone from the various plastic surgery professional associations and they'll all tell you the same thing: if plastics is all youve ever wanted to do all your life, do the AOA spots and be the best so you'll get them since the best 100 (or whatever) MDs will get the ACGME spots every time. BUT!!! They say if you aren't the top 7 candidates in america, dont worry....

wait for it....

plastics is actually *very* easy to get into as a fellowship.

go ahead. Tell me i'm wrong. call bs. ask any plastic surgeon. They'll tell you the same thing. I'm interested in plastics, i've talked to them ad nauseum about it. You need to be 1) better than most at surgery and 2) extremely creative/quick on your feet. From what Ive been told the plastic surgery fellowships out there sometimes (not always) dont even fill 100% because the amount of people who show interest and have sufficient manual dexterity usually is smaller than the number of fellowship spots out there.

Every plastic surgeon i've talked to (prob 10 now) said that exact same thing. The plastics residency is the most elite thing in existance and based wholly on your intelligence. The fellowship doesn't give a damn about your intelligence, they want people who can think on their feet exceptionally and wont make dumb mistakes during surgery.

They figure if youre even 'just barely above average' they can teach you to be an expert plastic surgeon, but they cant teach someone how to be artistically creative with the surgery, as is often required. Note: I'd still tell you to be as good of a candidate as you possibly can in every single way. But I'm going to dispel the ridiculous myth that the plastics fellowships are anything like the plastics residency. They target two polar opposite kind of people. The geniuses and the people who would actually make good plastic surgeons, respectively.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing
 
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-There are currently 7 AOA PRS fellowships (http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search_results.cfm?CFID=1681523&CFTOKEN=2c1f2c076c90e4a8-21F41655-09A7-0BE1-D299FB7B017C72E4&jsessionid=f030ea3666b58f6104b52857601dc132e77e) and, from what I've been told, usually around 100 g-surg AOA grads a year (though there is no guarantee whatsoever that all these people want PRS)

Just to add to your good information, the 7 AOA PRS fellowships offer a combined 24 spots for PGY 6 and 7.

So, if even every single 100 (which I'd be suprised if it was even half) of those grads wanted a plastics spot nearly 1:4 would get one? That doesn't sound like that horrible of odds to me.
 
So, if even every single 100 (which I'd be suprised if it was even half) of those grads wanted a plastics spot nearly 1:4 would get one? That doesn't sound like that horrible of odds to me.
12. Two year fellowship with 12 each year.
 
12. Two year fellowship with 12 each year.

Gotcha, ok well even if half of every AOA surgery residency graduating class wanted to go into plastics that would bring us back to our 1:4.

Like DocEspana mentions it doesn't seem that hard if you're willing to risk the fellowship route.
 
Alright ... I had to comment on a few things here:


As has been said, it is competitive to get into plastic surgery as an MD but near impossible as a DO. The few that get those spots probably have strong connections.

Unfortunately, I think this makes a great deal of sense. DO are specially trained in the musculoskeletal system and to view the body as a whole. This perspective and training comes in handy in fields like orthopedics and anesthesiology. However, plastics has very little to do with this. I would think that allo school would be a better choice for what you want to do.

I think this is a misconception on two fronts:

first, the 'philosophy' and additional training endowed in Osteopathic medicine does not mean much to a lot of students at DO schools (take that anyway you'd like). In many cases, medical students are striving for the end goal - plastic surgeon, emergency med doc, dermatologist, etc, and few (though some) look toward the different training models for inspiration/guidance along the way. So, saying that the DO model offers something that would 'discourage' (in a sense) a career in plastics isn't accurate.

However, (second) let's look at some of your claims and see if they make sense or actually say the opposite:

You bring up the tenets of Osteopathy - the body is an interrelated unit, structure influences function, the body (when healthy) is able to self-regulate/maintain a level of homeostatsis, and 'rational treatment' is based of a cumulation of these ideas. So, the body is an interrelated unit and structure influences function. Okay; so if this structure, which we know is interrelated, is impeded or lessened by say trauma, a birth defect, etc, wouldn't restoring this proper structure through ... I dunno, reconstruction, allow for a proper return to a level of homeostasis?

My grandfather was in a bad car accident and suffered third degree burns on his chest, neck, and arms a few years back. I can tell you first hand that the level of 'dysfunction' created by a loss of skin and poor scarring highly reduced the structure, which took away functions like fighting off diseases, simply staying hydrated, limb movement, etc, and that fixing these issues restored the function and brought his body back to some level of homeostasis.

Furthermore, you discuss some of the musculoskeletal/OMM techniques covered in DO school. I don't want to speak for all schools, but I know that where I attend, we continually work with visual and palpatory models that test our perception, visual precision, and sense of symmetry down to 1-2mm. The 'art' of plastic surgery is often measured in these small increments, and I honestly would see any type of exercise that honed my reflexed at this level as an attribute to this.

Now, in a realistic sense, MD schools/hospitals will give you an excellent base for entering plastic surgery. In VARIOUS cases, in fact, the available research opportunities, affiliated with trauma centers, etc, will probably actually give more experience and help you network and sink your teeth into the plastic surgery world as soon as possible.

I guess my point is that the model you train in really isn't going to make any sort of philosophical difference, and that dismissing DO training as 'not suited' for plastic surgery is silly (and, as I pointed out, kind of inaccurate).



You guys are mostly on but you're missing one huge detail. Talk to anyone from the various plastic surgery professional associations and they'll all tell you the same thing: if plastics is all youve ever wanted to do all your life, do the AOA spots and be the best so you'll get them since the best 100 (or whatever) MDs will get the ACGME spots every time. BUT!!! They say if you aren't the top 7 candidates in america, dont worry....

wait for it....

plastics is actually *very* easy to get into as a fellowship.

go ahead. Tell me i'm wrong. call bs. ask any plastic surgeon. They'll tell you the same thing. I'm interested in plastics, i've talked to them ad nauseum about it. You need to be 1) better than most at surgery and 2) extremely creative/quick on your feet. From what Ive been told the plastic surgery fellowships out there sometimes (not always) dont even fill 100% because the amount of people who show interest and have sufficient manual dexterity usually is smaller than the number of fellowship spots out there.

Every plastic surgeon i've talked to (prob 10 now) said that exact same thing. The plastics residency is the most elite thing in existance and based wholly on your intelligence. The fellowship doesn't give a damn about your intelligence, they want people who can think on their feet exceptionally and wont make dumb mistakes during surgery.

They figure if youre even 'just barely above average' they can teach you to be an expert plastic surgeon, but they cant teach someone how to be artistically creative with the surgery, as is often required. Note: I'd still tell you to be as good of a candidate as you possibly can in every single way. But I'm going to dispel the ridiculous myth that the plastics fellowships are anything like the plastics residency. They target two polar opposite kind of people. The geniuses and the people who would actually make good plastic surgeons, respectively.

I've spoken to two residents (actually one resident, one getting ready to enter surg) about this issue (a while back I was interested in PRS, but don't think so anymore) and this is what they had to say:

The first surgical resident told me that in the AOA world it's all about 'who you know' and that the sheer numbers can be misleading. For example, he did some research and found out that although each program (AOA) is listed as taking a certain number of surgeons each year, some years, if they don't feel like it, they don't take any. So I think the idea of 'programs not filling' is kind of a myth because from what he told me, it's because the programs don't want to fill.

Additionally, it seems like to be considered, you almost have to do your g-surg at a program with a PRS fellowship. Obviously, this is going to cut the numbers down again.


Gotcha, ok well even if half of every AOA surgery residency graduating class wanted to go into plastics that would bring us back to our 1:4.

Like DocEspana mentions it doesn't seem that hard if you're willing to risk the fellowship route.

I think it's still quite competitive, even if you do finish five years of g-surg. PRS, altogether, is probably the most competitive thing all around right now. Whether its ACGME integrated, ACGME fellowship, or AOA fellowship, if you want plastics, be prepared to be smart, work hard, network a LOT, and do g-surg in a place with a fellowship.

Just my .02
 
Alright ... I had to comment on a few things here:

I think this is a misconception on two fronts:

i totally cut your whole comment down to one two thoughts, and neither are the one i'm responding too. I'm so terribly lazy at this editing. But you suggested that the numbers are misleading. I'm using the federal numbers, which reflect similar-to-identical acceptance numbers as the AOA releases, but drastically smaller "total spots" numbers. The AOA probably has federal government clearance to have so many residencies funded and they publish info that supports having many many more residencies than the federal government lists as AOA residencies actually being paid for. So i figure my numbers are probably more reflective of the realities. But to be honest, i heard the same exact thing. That a lot of residencies really dont exist in reality because all of their funds get funneled somewhere else wher the demand is greater in the residency program.

tHe only rule i know for sure is that you cant collect federal money and not spend it on resident education. So the federal funds by program should be accurate.
 
i totally cut your whole comment down to one two thoughts, and neither are the one i'm responding too. I'm so terribly lazy at this editing. But you suggested that the numbers are misleading. I'm using the federal numbers, which reflect similar-to-identical acceptance numbers as the AOA releases, but drastically smaller "total spots" numbers. The AOA probably has federal government clearance to have so many residencies funded and they publish info that supports having many many more residencies than the federal government lists as AOA residencies actually being paid for. So i figure my numbers are probably more reflective of the realities. But to be honest, i heard the same exact thing. That a lot of residencies really dont exist in reality because all of their funds get funneled somewhere else wher the demand is greater in the residency program.

tHe only rule i know for sure is that you cant collect federal money and not spend it on resident education. So the federal funds by program should be accurate.

Yeah ... honestly, I'm not at that point yet, so almost everything I've heard (with regard to DO PRS fellowships) is from trusted, but still second hand sources, you know? Essentially just repeating what I've been told from guys I know who are 'there.' Could be off, could not be, etc.

Hahaha, a few years ago I probably could have written a novel about DO plastics. I was very interested in it for a long time, but don't think I could spend 7 years post-grad training anymore. Let us know if you find out anything else, I'm sure a lot of people would like the information.
 
Forget about integrated plastics - virtually impossible unless you have some amazing connections to go along with an amazing resume

For ACGME plastics fellowship - possible but also hard (you need to get into an ACGME general surgical residency first, do well, and make mad connections along with research). Plastics and Ped Surg are some of the most competitive surgical fellowships. But it's possible (as a med student, I met a DO plastic surgeon who did his PRS fellowship at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester)

For AOA Plastics Fellowship - it's all based on networking, who you know, and also impressive resume (while doing your AOA surgery residency)
 
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