Osteopathic vs Allopathic Acceptance Rates

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Here is someone who went to med school without even taking the MCAT (connections)! Apparently this person went on to do residency as well. https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

efle said:
They do back it, because I don't have to see a majority fail rate to call it an overly risky move and a waste (on average across many people) compared to people with near 100% pass rates.
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Gandy741 said:
With a 5-14 MCAT, I would bet lots of money that they wouldnt pass boards on 3 attempts let alone one. Unless of course, extremely extenuating circumstances.
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https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

Eventual pass rates are pretty close to 100% for step 1 for every stats bracket. First time pass rates are dicey on the very low stats brackets (but still often 50%+).
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I'm just going to point out the fact that if an applicant has unusually difficult circumstamces, adcoms, who have experience reading literally hundreds of thousands of applications might be able to ascertain potential for medical school success from numerous other factors, including GPA, essays, and the interview, not to mention other standardized test scores. I would think that recognition of the desired competencies will be evident just based off of past experiences with successful applicants, but then again, what do I know...

Essentially, if someone is smart, well written, and well spoken, an adcom's intuition, which is probably highly developed after YEARS of experience, should be enough to give this person a chance. And obviously, they were right, because the person is question turned out to be highly successful.
 
gonnif said:
You do not see the assumptions you make and how they influence the tone and content of your remarks. How, likely your experience and societal placement, can not fathom how your words will be interpreted by others you read. Your first comment that started all this was assuming that those low scores must have been connections and are unlikely to pass the boards. At the very least snide, at the most unable to see other possibilities. Your second set would be read by virtually any single mother as almost code for they should stay home with the kids and that is their place. Do you see how the basis for your words are going to be heard by others? What you assume as simple rational fact is always imbued with cultural and value judgement?

And I am making a point here that these others will be the majority of your patients as a physician. That being able to put yourself in other person's shoes is perhaps the best skill a physician can have in understanding a patient. And that should be something you can at least approach when looking at others who are trying to be physicians as well.
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No, no, no, no, no. I did not in the slightest send a message that mothers should stay at home.

You said, some people can't do time-consuming task X because Y.

I said, how can they complete even-more-time-consuming task Z if Y keeps them from even doing X?

Y was originally raising kids alone in your example, with taking the MCAT as X and completing med school as Z.

How you have somehow tried to spin this into SJW, efle is being sexist is beyond me. I cannot honestly continue if you're going to keep up trying to spin what I've said in this kind of ridiculous manner. You're falling back onto "check your privilege" instead of addressing what I said: no life experiences, no incredible story, no maturity or leadership can make up for someone not being able to handle med school. People with 4-15 on the MCAT are at a much higher risk of failing. It is more sensible to ask that they retake it to dispel such doubts, and admit from the already massive pool of apps that have shown they are capable.

And, you know nothing of my story. Don't speak as if you know what my culture and value judgements are.
 
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Banco said:
Here is someone who went to med school without even taking the MCAT (connections)! Apparently this person went on to do residency as well. https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf





https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

Eventual pass rates are pretty close to 100% for step 1 for every stats bracket. First time pass rates are dicey on the very low stats brackets (but still often 50%+).
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The pass rate is high for people who keep trying. I'd say this kind of grid

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=16

is the really worrisome one. See edit

Edit: It actually shows at the bottom just not in the grid itself, the bracket for sub-15 and 15-17 are both 13-14%.
 
efle said:
The pass rate is high for people who keep trying. I'd say this kind of grid

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=16

is the really worrisome one. 6-13% of people in the 15-17 bracket are dismissed or withdraw from not being able to handle the academics. That rate is already insanely risky considering the resources spent on a med student, without the increase certain to come from shifting down to the 4-15 bracket.
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In my class we had a guy who failed the first class, barely passed the second class, and failed the third class, and the school determined he probably didn't have a strong enough academic background to begin with. He quit his job, his wife quit her job, and he uprooted his 3 kid family to move across the country to my school and he was gone by that october. I think the school did him an incredible disservice by accepting him when he was that at risk.
 
acapnial said:
In my class we had a guy who failed the first class, barely passed the second class, and failed the third class, and the school determined he probably didn't have a strong enough academic background to begin with. He quit his job, his wife quit her job, and he uprooted his 3 kid family to move across the country to my school and he was gone by that october. I think the school did him an incredible disservice by accepting him when he was that at risk.
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The debt, too, could be horrific to deal with even if it's only from the first year or two. Why on earth someone being a combat vet or single mother etc should make this sort of risk reasonable is beyond me. There are a hundred phenomenal things about applicants that rightly should add value to the app...but performance quite a bit stronger than a 15 MCAT should be necessary for applicants to be considered in the first place. And it's not like you're telling them no, you don't stand a chance - all they need to do is retake.
 
Yeah, but what MCAT did that guy have, acapnial? He could have had a 39: I personally know two applicants with 39+ MCAT scores who failed out of my Ph.D program.

Bizarre anecdote, I know.
 
Doug Underhill said:
Yeah, but what MCAT did that guy have, acapnial? He could have had a 39: I personally know two applicants with 39+ MCAT scores who failed out of my Ph.D program.

Bizarre anecdote, I know.
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Irrelevant. All his post is highlighting is how terrible it can be for people to change their lives for med school and then fail out. People with 15 MCATs have a high risk of failing out. Even if his particular example had a 43 and a 4.00 at MIT it is still a bad idea to admit students you know to have a 13-14% chance of failing out.
 
This thread is ridiculous and gonnif is being so defensive he's venturing into offensive (not unusual).

Taking the MCAT with extenuating circumstances is a bad decision.
If these circumstances are not temporary, how can you expect to succeed in medical school?

There is no reason to apply with a single digit MCAT score and expect adcoms to generate sympathy.
 
Doug Underhill said:
Where do we draw the line, then? 10%? 5%?
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I believe I've heard adcoms say around 26 which looks like its on the cusp between 2-3%? I think there's been some papers that deal with this better.

But again, irrelevant, since it's going to be a ways lower than 13-14%.
 
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md-2020 said:
I happen to think that a single digit MCAT score is quite worthy of sympathy.
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Yeah gyngyn had a sad story once about a UChicago grad who suffered brain damage and applied to his school with a 9 MCAT.

Should've applied to gonnif's school , I'm sure the personal qualities demonstrated by perservering through the injury would outweigh the academic risk 😉
 
efle said:
The pass rate is high for people who keep trying. I'd say this kind of grid

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=16

is the really worrisome one. See edit

Edit: It actually shows at the bottom just not in the grid itself, the bracket for sub-15 and 15-17 are both 13-14%.
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The link doesn't seem to be directing me to any specific page? Either way I really don't care that much, I was just pointing out some specific stats which seem pretty surprising at first glance. Getting in seems to be the hardest part about medical school.
 
Doug Underhill said:
Yeah, but what MCAT did that guy have, acapnial? He could have had a 39: I personally know two applicants with 39+ MCAT scores who failed out of my Ph.D program.

Bizarre anecdote, I know.
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I don't know what his stats were. But I agree with Efle that it was a bad idea... they took a risk and it didn't work out well. The school knew his background was a little shaky.

Doug Underhill said:
Where do we draw the line, then? 10%? 5%?
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If it were me I would draw the line at 3%. Which a 27 and 3.1 would apparently be safe for so hopefully it's not too harsh.
 
I just think this notion that extenuating circumstances excuses a deplorable MCAT score is absurd. I understand forgiving an MCAT score that's a couple of points below usual standards because of overwhelming hardship, but 10+ points below? Not so much.

As someone who dealt with abnormal hardship for years, I understand that I still need to demonstrate that I can handle the rigor of medical school. Regardless of your situation, an incredibly low MCAT score states that you either 1. make really poor/risky decisions or 2. have succumbed to hardship and allowed it to hinder you. Regardless of which it is, it doesn't demonstrate an ability to do well in an academically stressful situation.
 
rachiie01 said:
I just think this notion that extenuating circumstances excuses a deplorable MCAT score is absurd. I understand forgiving an MCAT score that's a couple of points below usual standards because of overwhelming hardship, but 10+ points below? Not so much.

As someone who dealt with abnormal hardship for years, I understand that I still need to demonstrate that I can handle the rigor of medical school. Regardless of your situation, an incredibly low MCAT score states that you either 1. make really poor/risky decisions or 2. have succumbed to hardship and allowed it to hinder you. Regardless of which it is, it doesn't demonstrate an ability to do well in an academically stressful situation.
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@gonnif you there buddy? care to tell her why she is wrong? What privilage does she need to check? I can't see anything anti-single parent in there to redirect with but maybe you can find something
 
efle, your attitude is highly unprofessional. There are plenty of adcoms who lurk on SDN, and they can probably figure out who you are. Didn't you put your real name on a chart you made earlier this month, or was that WedgeDawg?
 
rachiie01 said:
I just think this notion that extenuating circumstances excuses a deplorable MCAT score is absurd. I understand forgiving an MCAT score that's a couple of points below usual standards because of overwhelming hardship, but 10+ points below? Not so much.
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What are "usual standards"? Because even top schools have students with MCATs in the 20s.
 
Doug Underhill said:
efle, your attitude is highly unprofessional. There are plenty of adcoms who lurk on SDN, and they can probably figure out who you are. Didn't you put your real name on a chart you made earlier this month, or was that WedgeDawg?
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I'd hope that my adcoms would something better to do with their time then try and find @efle.

Considering how each school gets like 5-10k apps, I don't think he has much to worry about; if anything, his charts and tables have been very beneficial to SDN.
 
Doug Underhill said:
efle, your attitude is highly unprofessional. There are plenty of adcoms who lurk on SDN, and they can probably figure out who you are. Didn't you put your real name on a chart you made earlier this month, or was that WedgeDawg?
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Indeed I did! How terrifying :0
 
Doug Underhill said:
efle, your attitude is highly unprofessional. There are plenty of adcoms who lurk on SDN, and they can probably figure out who you are. Didn't you put your real name on a chart you made earlier this month, or was that WedgeDawg?
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md-2020 said:
I'd hope that my adcoms would something better to do with their time then try and find @efle.

Considering how each school gets like 5-10k apps, I don't think he has much to worry about; if anything, his charts and tables have been very beneficial to SDN.
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Well, efle did reveal his stats and undergrad name, so it's pretty easy for adcoms to identify him with just these info (why they would even care in the first place, who knows). But attitude aside, it is simply shortsighted to put the blame on him considering the AAMC data analysis work he did, which proved to be helpful.

As far as the gonnif vs efle controversy goes:

efle said:
Must be quite the connections to make up for wasting a seat on someone who is very unlikely to pass boards
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gonnif said:
You have no idea who these applicants are and what there background are; making assumptions and placing stereotypes is rather arrogant and that is the last quality I want to see in an applicant. I know of one rather low scoring applicant who nonetheless was quite successful in medical school. Why the low score. Well the day before he was flying missions out of Kuwait, then rushed to Saudi Arabia to take the exam, sleeping on top of a large refrigeration box the night before, having horrible computer issues that crashed finally leaving him with score he got as he headed back to Kuwait to fly missions the next day. He is now finishing residency in the Pacific Northwest.
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Yes, it's wrong to assume and judge, but really, it's cheaper to retake and do well on the MCAT compared to actually applying to medical schools. At least a low initial score coupled with a stronger retake under much more desirable, relaxed circumstances will provide a powerful story to adcoms that will work in applicant's favor.
 
I was wrong in my initial post. Someone with a sub 15 MCAT only needs connections to get in *to schools that otherwise only consider applicants that have demonstrated they have an extremely low risk of failing out*. I've no way to say if that's a standard requirement for most schools. Maybe for some schools the MCAT is optional for all I know
 
rachiie01 said:
More than 2 points below the school's 10th percentile I would say is below usual standards.
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Sounds arbitrary. You're basing this off...?

efle said:
Usually hear mid-20s from goro and gyngyn as being the start of the high confidence zone
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Yeah, but 27 would be "below usual standards" for Rachiie01 at nearly every school with a 10%ile of 30+ (top schools often have 10%iles in the 31-33 range)

md-2020 said:
Those are the URMs for the most part.
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Yes, and? @rachiie01 said that they would understand hardships if they accounted for an mcat score that was "a couple points below usual standards".
 
Lamel said:
Sounds arbitrary. You're basing this off...?



Yeah, but 27 would be "below usual standards" for Rachiie01 at nearly every school with a 10%ile of 30+ (top schools often have 10%iles in the 31-33 range)



Yes, and? @rachiie01 said that they would understand hardships if they accounted for an mcat score that was "a couple points below usual standards".
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I'd have to agree that high 20s should be safe enough for anywhere, and speculate that the schools going way past that with even their 10th percentiles are seeking high step scorers more than a higher chance of graduating
 
Especially when you look at places like UCLA and UCSF, they have huge ranges that go into the 20s because they're not number ****** like the WashUs of the world (I say this affectionately)
 
efle said:
Hah you're nowhere near as argumentative as me man, if your name was leaked it wouldn't hurt you at all
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Lol I appreciate the sentiment. Regardless, it still probably wouldn't be a good thing 😛 though a reasonably investigative person might be able to figure out who I am...

efle said:
I'd have to agree that high 20s should be safe enough for anywhere, and speculate that the schools going way past that with even their 10th percentiles are seeking high step scorers more than a higher chance of graduating
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I would argue that for schools like Harvard, it's less comparing stats against the "threshold for competence" (for lack of a better term) than it is comparing them against those of other applicants in order to create the strongest possible class.
 
efle said:
Especially when you look at places like UCLA and UCSF, they have huge ranges that go into the 20s because they're not number ****** like the WashUs of the world (I say this affectionately)
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Exactly, I agree with you. But if WashU's 10%ile is 34, then is a 27 way too "below usual standards" even if they graduate fine? That's what I'm mainly arguing. The assertion that a pre-med on this board has enough experience to definitely say what the standards are/should be for medical schools is hilarious.
 
Lamel said:
Exactly, I agree with you. But if WashU's 10%ile is 34, then is a 27 way too "below usual standards" even if they graduate fine? That's what I'm mainly arguing. The assertion that a pre-med on this board has enough experience to definitely say what the standards are/should be for medical schools is hilarious.
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I mean I feel like there's some arbitrary line to he drawn about what premeds can speak about too. I don't feel like I need more experience to say Med schools shouldn't admit people with cheating IAs for example. I've taken the MCAT and feel pretty sure I see why schools want students that can score reasonably on it.
 
efle said:
I mean I feel like there's some arbitrary line to he drawn about what premeds can speak about too. I don't feel like I need more experience to say Med schools shouldn't admit people with cheating IAs for example. I've taken the MCAT and feel pretty sure I see why schools want students that can score reasonably on it.
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Adcoms are obviously more experienced on what constitutes "qualified" for medical schools. Arbitrary lines that are being drawn by rachiie in this thread are speculative at best, and aren't helpful (unless being used to create a list of medical schools to apply to, or something).
 
It makes me sad how this thread got derailed because gonnif wanted to assert some sort of moral superiority over efle lol. You're not better than anyone else. You're not special. You're just another kid on the internet with a superiority complex who thinks that your opinions outweigh everyone else's.
 
WonderGrill said:
It makes me sad how this thread got derailed because gonnif wanted to assert some sort of moral superiority over efle lol. You're not better than anyone else. You're not special. You're just another kid on the internet with a superiority complex who thinks that your opinions outweigh everyone else's.
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1) gonnif is an adult

2) there's no need to attack him (or anyone else in the thread) over what was said. That discussion has finished and a new one has taken its place. I don't see any reason to try to rekindle the flames here.
 
First of all, I'm not saying that someone with a score in the high 20's shouldn't get into medical school. I've said over and over on this forum that those scoring 24+ deserve a chance bc data shows that they're capable of succeeding. You're trying to extrapolate my argument into something it's not. My argument was actually that a school with a 10th percentile of 30 (a top school, according to you) shouldn't be expected to accept someone with a 27 MCAT because of hardship. 3 points below the 10th percentile is significant. Can it happen? Sure. Do I think the applicant will be successful? With a 27, yes. Do I think a 27 deserves to be at a top school? Not really, no. Do I think a 22 should be at ANY MD school? Again, not really, no.
 
I agree that the line is arbitrary, but you did ask me where I drew the line and so I told you. I will say though that I wasn't speaking necessarily for top schools as I believe their numbers exclude people who are successful but not the highest board scorers. I was mostly referencing the newer/low tier schools whose 10th percentile is already pretty low and accepting 3+ points lower is getting into risky business, hardship or not.

I'd love to continue to explain points that should be pretty clear already, but I'm in a location without Internet and my data plan is running out 😛
 
rachiie01 said:
I agree that the line is arbitrary, but you did ask me where I drew the line and so I told you. I will say though that I wasn't speaking necessarily for top schools as I believe their numbers exclude people who are successful but not the highest board scorers. I was mostly referencing the newer/low tier schools whose 10th percentile is already pretty low and accepting 3+ points lower is getting into risky business, hardship or not.

I'd love to continue to explain points that should be pretty clear already, but I'm in a location without Internet and my data plan is running out 😛
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Data never too limited for that signature passive aggression to get squeezed in at the end
 
Personally, while I understand the importance of the MCAT, I think its worshipped a little too much. But then someone with an upper 20 MCAT score shouldnt be getting into a top MD school anyways. I agree with Rachie's above post.

my 2 cents.


Edit: Plus isnt the the absolute borderline score to get into MD schools a 27 anyways? (For non-mission based schools such as HBCU, etc)
 
Gandy741 said:
Personally, while I understand the importance of the MCAT, I think its worshipped a little too much. But then someone with an upper 20 MCAT score shouldnt be getting into a top MD school anyways. I agree with Rachie's above post.

my 2 cents.


Edit: Plus isnt the the absolute borderline score to get into MD schools a 27 anyways? (For non-mission based schools such as HBCU, etc)
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No, lots of schools have 10th percentiles below 27. Only some are mission based. Here are the ones with 10th percentiles 26 and lower:

University of Illinois College of Medicine
Indiana University School of Medicine
Loma Linda University School of Med
University of Alabama School of Medicine
Cooper Medical School of Rowan University
Wright State University Boonshoft School of Medicine
University of Tennessee Health Sci Center College of Med
Sanford School of Medicine at Uni of South Dakota
University of Arkansas for Med Sci College of Med
The Brody School of Med at East Carolina University
West Virginia University School of Medicine
University of South Carolina School of Medicine
East Tennesse State Uni James Quillen College of Med
Mercer University School of Med
Medical University of South Carolina College of Med
University of Utah School of Medicine
Michigan State University College of Human Medicine
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine
University of South Carolina School of Med Greenville
University of North Dakota School of Medicine
University of Kansas School of Medicine
University of Mississippi School of Medicine
Central Michigan University College of Med
Florida State University College of Medicine
Northeast Ohio Medical University
Marshall University Joan C Edwards School of Medicine
Howard University College of Medicine
Meharry Medical College
University of New Mexico School of Medicine
Morehouse School of Med
University of Missouri Kansas City School of Medicine
 
Gandy741 said:
Wow... UC Davis has a 10 percentile of 26 or lower? It must have been like 1 person that got accepted to some of these schools with MCAT scores that low though. They still have to include that 24 even if 1 person out of their 120 person class got a 24.
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Edited to reflect this year's list, the one you quoted was actually last year's by mistake.

But yes last year's Davis was a 26, now it's 27

I mean it's 10th percentile marks and most of these places that means around 10 people
 
efle said:
Edited to reflect this year's list, the one you quoted was actually last year's by mistake.

But yes last year's Davis was a 26, now it's 27
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I really want to say it was probably URM though. The MSAR is kind of misleading.

My point is unless you have extenuating circumstances, I'd say even a 27 is probably too low for MD.
 
Gandy741 said:
I really want to say it was probably URM though. The MSAR is kind of misleading.
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It is pretty annoying that you can't see data per race, considering they already make that data available overall in Table 25s. Another very useful thing would be to see separately the stat distributions for instaters and out of staters for the public schools.
 
efle said:
It is pretty annoying that you can't see data per race, considering they already make that data available overall in Table 25s. Another very useful thing would be to see separately the stat distributions for instaters and out of staters for the public schools.
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URM status is the single most defining factor of any type of admissions. You can literally go from HMS to applying next cycle based on race.
 
efle said:
It is pretty annoying that you can't see data per race, considering they already make that data available overall in Table 25s. Another very useful thing would be to see separately the stat distributions for instaters and out of staters for the public schools.
Click to expand...

Yea, when I made my school list, I picked schools with MCAT medians + or - 2 of mine.
 
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