osteopathic vs. allopathic

[UHS2002]

Royce,

I truly find it hard to believe that you got accepted anywhere. I find it even hard to believe you got accepted at a top 20 program for the following reason:
You seem to have such a low opinion of DO programs and yet you, in your own words, applied to a few. I would only imagine you did that if you thought that you needed a "backup" plan because you doubted your MD acceptances would come through. I don't believe you did that just to spend some more money you happened to have in your pocket. If your grades made you doubt of your own chances, they must not have been in the "top 20 league". I could see a pre med that didn't think much of DO schools and had good numbers applying to top programs and then some lower ranking MD programs just in case. What you claim you did defies any kind of logic, so I am left to think that you are either a liar or an idiot.

Personally, I don't think you got in anywhere, MD or DO schools. At this time, I think you have some spare time while you waiting for the phone to ring on your Caribbean applications.

For someone who hasn't even started med school you have some strong opinions about thing you know nothing about!

---

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[wheatfarmer]

Royce, oh so you make fun of the wheatfarmer? I am surprised you could spell wheatfarmer...did you cut and paste it?

Royce-dog, R-money, sweet-o-Royce-monster.

 

[wheatfarmer]

Betamez,


The reason the other page discussed DC's and their ability to perform cancer screenings is because I believe it is beyond their scope of practice.
It has nothing to do with degrading them, rather everything to do with legal interpretation of practice rights and ethical and professional fraud.

The MD and DO *****ic debates are about two virtually identical fields that have the same practice rights. This is NOT THE CASE with Naturopaths and Chiropractors (who continually practice medicine beyond their training).

Read the posts next time.

 

[mdb]

Although there are some fundamental differences between MD and DO, because they both are viewed as equals under the law (the exact same rights), MD = DO; so I have to laugh at how worked up some people get over this debate - it's like debating what is better - 6 of one or a half dozen of another. Does anybody else feel the same way?

 

[Vegeta]

mdb:

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm always shocked by how much attention threads of this genre receive.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by mdb:
Although there are some fundamental differences between MD and DO, because they both are viewed as equals under the law (the exact same rights), MD = DO; so I have to laugh at how worked up some people get over this debate - it's like debating what is better - 6 of one or a half dozen of another. Does anybody else feel the same way?

The fundamental error you continue to make is in the assumption that MD=DO. They do not, and believe me, you'll find this out in the real world. Far from being your savior from such intellectual bad guys like me, the real world will bring with it the sobering reality that you're not as well regarded as us (in general), and that you won't be able to do as much in the specialties.

What an elementary concept. It's amazing that you'd continue to deny its effects on your careers.



[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-29-2000).]

 

[RYSA]

What a load of horses*&t that has been spewed on this site. It's like you guys are comparing penis sizes or something. Does it really matter?! In the end, we will all be qualified to treat patients....end of story. It really doesn't matter if I have an M.D. and you have a D.O. for we will be part of the MEDICAL community. I have to say that I am disappointed that many of the people on this thread are so narrow-minded and egotistical. God help your poor patients!


------------------
"A goal without a deadline is, in reality, only a wish"

 

[mdb]

Royce, I couldn't agree with you more. What good is it if I received an MD from a prestigious school like Harvard or Yale if I'm a lousy doctor. The letters after your name are of little consequence if you're not a good doctor. I've met doctors who went to schools I never even heard of before who were incredible doctors, and I've met doctors who went to some of the most prestigious and exclusive schools in the entire country who I wouldn't want touching me with a ten foot pole.

 

[IGGA]

Hello everyone..
i'm kinda new here and i'm going to apply to med schools this summer....now can someone tell me what are the positive and negatives sides of attending a DO school and not going to allopathic school?? Everyone's been telling me not to apply at DO school however since my verbal score is really low i'm thinking about applying to DO school. First time i took MCATs i got 8,9,9.. 8 in verbal of course...and second time i screwed up 6,10,10.. i didn't practice at all for verbal second time and also english is my second language. And my main question is can the DO's go into surgery after finish 4 years of DO school?? I'm really interested in becoming a surgeon. Can someone please help me here...

)

 

[rocky]

There are always going be MDs who don't think osteopathic is the same as allopathic, but in general most MDs respect their DO colleagues the same as their MD ones. And there is truth that it is harder to get into surgical specialties for DOs. And its also true that sometimes students with lower numbers get into DO schools, but that doesn't mean they aren't going to be good doctors. You go where you get in. There will be patients who don't want to see a DO, but there will be another 5 that don't care as long as their problem is solved. We are all going to make the same amount of money and are all going to see the same patients. We all know that there are going to be people against DOs, but who cares as long as you are happy being a DO.

Rocky

 

[buttercup]

UHS2002 and Royce-

don't make me turn this car around you two!!!

 

[UHS2002]

Have no fear! With finals coming up this monday, I find hernia repair a much more interesting subject than Royce

 

[UHSBOUND]

MikeS 78 -
I read your statements comparing OU and OSU and just thought I would let you know that I know two people personally who got accepted to OU this year and were turned down at OSU. One will attend OU and the other will attend a DO school in another state. So you cant just go on the stats because they look at different things.

 

[MikeS 78]

ok that doesnt say much.....considering OSU's stated selection criterion is "The desire to enter a career in family medicine in rural Oklahoma"
Thus the people you are referring to were most likely rejected because it was obvious that they had no desire to fit the profile of the student OSU was looking for

OSU claims to have rejected people with 33's who applied there but didn't fit the profile because of lack of desire to practice in rural oklahoma

I would probably be amongst the rejected (If i had to reapply), and I would have Instate status, and excellent numbers and activities. However I have absolutely no desire to practice in rural oklahoma, or to enter general practice

And please everyone, spare me the lectures on how I am a horrible person for not wanting to fill the need in rural america, or to enter a GP.....

 

[hunter]

hello all...this is a very interesting "debate"....i am an MSI at an osteopathic medical school and was just curious as to what the allopathic forums were writing in regards to this...needless to say, i am absolutely shocked to hear such large amounts of comments, some rediculous and many sensible....to be honest, i was accepted to both MD and DO schools, but chose the DO school SIMPLY because i liked the school overall...that was the only reason...i have a strong family background in the medical field and have seen that there no longer is a difference in these 2 programs...my mother is an MD and prof of medicine at an MD medical school...she has taught many DOs and MDs and says that there is no difference in them whatsoever, both in terms of clinical skills as well as intellectual knowledge...furthermore, my cousin is doing his residency in pediatric surgery at an allopathic program of a rather large and well known institution which i will not disclose at the present time ...of the total residents in his year, approximately 30% of them are DOs....if there still seems to be negative sentiments towards DOs, i thnk it stems from those physicians who have been in the field for 20-30 years...i fully agree that there WAS a difference in the quality of teaching b/w DOs and MDs and that DOs graduating from medical schools were of slightly lower calibre....HOWEVER, this difference was about 10-15 years ago...now, i think that many, if not all, of the osteopathic schools have made their education exactly the same as the allopathic schools because they realized that there was a difference and need to improve themselves...furthermore, if we look at this issue from a mathematical perspective, if there are 7,000 applicants to an MD institution and the school has only 125 seats available, how do they go about choosing "the most qualified"....lets say that out of the 7,000, there are 2500 applicants with the usual 3.5 GPA and 30 on the MCATs..well, i think we all know what the main point i am driving towards is....basically, i think that even if there is a difference, it is EXTREMELY minimal...if we are in this profession to show off the cool initials after our names, then we have truly lost focus of what the meaning of this profession is, and this holds true for both MDs and DOs!!

Sid

 

[AJ]

It seems that the difficulty for getting accepted to osteopathic schools is fastly reaching if it hasn't already the level of allopathic schools. I have a friend who applied to DO and MD last year. He was rejected without interview to all the osteopathic schools but was accepted to a top 25 allopathic state school.

Due to all the similarities between the practices, my personal view is that in less than 20 years the two professions will somehow merge. I know that in the past osteopathic physicians and probably allopathic physicians as well have wished to remain separate, but I think that differences between the two groups have become so insignificant that it doesn't warant their separation.

When I'm a physician I'll be happy to work along side anyone who is competent whether they be an MD, DO, or whatever.

 

[AmberE]

I just wanted to give my 2 cents!

My Brother went to a DO school because he could not get into a MD medical school.
His stats are:

36 MCAT
3.8 GPA
some hospital voulunteer and other stuff (this was also 10 years ago.)
He applied to 20 schools. He ended up going to Kansas City, Missouri.

Anyways, I have asked him honestly about his DO school and he told me that he did not get the education that he would have had he attended a MD med school. He was an outstanding student who still excelled but did so on his own. He also took the USMEL(spelling?) and scored in the top 1%. He is very smart and studied his butt off. He went into Diagnostic Radiology but said that his residency program was a crappy hospital and they didn't teach at all. It was all up to him. He wishes we would have been able to get into an MD for the better training he would have recevied. If it had not been for his very hard work he would have not learned very much. Overall, he has still been able to specialize in what he wanted to and now makes $380 a year. This was to start. He's not complaining now but if he could change anything it would be to have gotten into a MD school. I just wanted to had what I knew about DO. This is just one experience.

 

[LloydDObler]

AmberE,

Since there is a new thread about this extrememly important subject just about every single day, I am curious as to why you resurrected this thread from 2000.

 

[jalabert]

Yes, and that is quite a different perspective. You mean there is someone out there who went to DO school because they couldn't get into MD school? Wow!

I'm sure he's a great guy too. There are tons of people with a 36 MCAT, 3.8 gpa, and good ECs that applied to 20 schools and didn't get into an allopathic anywhere in the US, Osteopathic schools are full of 'em... c'mon, go troll somewhere else.

 

[Blade28]

Originally posted by jalabert
I'm sure he's a great guy too. There are tons of people with a 36 MCAT, 3.8 gpa, and good ECs that applied to 20 schools and didn't get into an allopathic anywhere in the US, Osteopathic schools are full of 'em... c'mon, go troll somewhere else.

Whoa, easy there. Didn't sound like she was trying to troll.

I'm also curious why this almost 4-year-old thread was suddenly resurrected? Why not just create a new thread? How was this one dug up, anyway?

 

[AmberE]

First of all, I am new to SDN so I wasn't sure how to post a message. I am here because my husband is a pre-med major and I am trying to learn all I can to help him.

Second of all, what I posted is totally what my brother has said to me. In no way would I know anything about the DO program. I just thought someone might want to know what someone else who had been through the process thought. My brother and I dissagree on a lot of things. If fact he still doesn't know why he didn't get into an MD school and I know why. He is very smart in some ways but very dumb in others.

Also, I had not posted but have read a lot of peoples's advice on here that I have found extremely helpful and valuable. But one thing that bothers me is that when anyone posts something, there is always someone who has to beat them down for what they say. If you don't have anything constructive to say then don't post it. This is a place to share what we have all learned and give advice to others in the process, so I thought. What happened to freedom of speech. I love this site becasue it is a wealth of information for anyone going premed but people need to let others ask questions or state experiences without being shot down for it.

 

[AmberE]

Oh by the way, I did a search on DO and MD schools and paid no attention to the date on the posts. You can tell I am new here. I have figured out how to search a subject but not to sure where the new posts are and the right way to post. I am new and will figure it out. Give me a break! Please! I love this site and don't want anyone to think that I am against DO or MD. My husband might be going to DO school and that is fine with me. So I have nothing against it, just my brothers perspective. Sorry if I affended anyone.

 

[group_theory]

OK - here are some questions/comments for you to ponder regarding what your brother said.

Originally posted by AmberE
Anyways, I have asked him honestly about his DO school and he told me that he did not get the education that he would have had he attended a MD med school.

And how would he know what type of education he would have received if he went MD? To me, it looks like he was extremely upset that he "settled" for DO, and look over at the MD side and saw greener grass. I based this assumption on your following quotes

He was an outstanding student who still excelled but did so on his own

his residency program was a crappy hospital and they didn't teach at all. It was all up to him.

He wishes we would have been able to get into an MD for the better training he would have recevied. If it had not been for his very hard work he would have not learned very much.

if he could change anything it would be to have gotten into a MD school

Did he do his residency at at an AOA-approved institution, a AGCME-institution, or a dual-accredited AOA/ACGME institution?

Although your brother did go through a DO education, I would advise that you take his view of DO education as a biased filtered one - from someone who always wanted MD and went through his education looking at the greener grass on the other side. My suggestion - talk to more people - DO students, practicing DOs (new and old), and MDs (new and old) to get a better sense of reality.

 

[AmberE]

I'll ask what kind of program he attended tomorrow, I called and he must be in bed. Anyways I don't know much about DO except for what my brother said and my pediatrician the other day. I was asking what pre-med advice he had for me and he said when I was applying they told the students who had lower gpa's to apply to DO schools. I live in Utah and he said that DO's are looked down upon in the south-western states but are seen in the same light in north-east states. He said this to me because I said my busband will apply to both, either way he will be doing what he loves. I do need a different perspective from something who thinks DO is geat and would rather go that route and not as a back up last choice. Thanks for the reply, its nice to hear from someone who just wants to help!

 

[jalabert]

Amber,

My apologies if you weren't trolling, and I was a tad rude. It was late, and I had a long day. It seemed odd to me also that a four year old thread was resurrected on a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. Honestly though, I really have to doubt the validity of some of your brother's assertions about is pre-med qualifications. As I said, I find it hard to believe that someone with a 36 MCAT and 3.8 gpa, that had ANY ECs would not be able to get into allopathic if they sent out 20 apps. I would guess he was likely a bit less qualified than he lets on, but heh, who knows? It is unfortunate he seems hung up on the DO inferiority complex though. It really doesn't seem to matter to anyone who matters.

All that being said, you can find many contributors on the various sub-forums of SDN who are DOs and can give you the straight poop. The moderator of the graduate EM forum, Quinn (who was hot, but is not anymore; now that's an old thread) is a DO who has commented previously on the prospects for DOs and could probably point you in the right direction for a fair and balanced assessment. I am also aquainted with several DOs in various competitive specialties, ortho included, who seem to do just fine.

Hope you find what you're looking for, there are lots of helpful people around here, so I'm sure you will.

 

[AmberE]

quoted:
Honestly though, I really have to doubt the validity of some of your brother's assertions about is pre-med qualifications. As I said, I find it hard to believe that someone with a 36 MCAT and 3.8 gpa, that had ANY ECs would not be able to get into allopathic if they sent out 20 apps. I would guess he was likely a bit less qualified than he lets on, but heh, who knows?

Those stats are right. I know, I have seen proof. But like everyone on here says smarts isn't everything. Admissions commitees (spelling?) are looking for a well-rounded person. My brother knew right out of high-school he wanted to be a doctor. It was based on who made the most money. He thought and either a doctor or a lawyer but decided on being a doctor. His people skills are seriously lacking and he does not have much respect for authority or keeping his mouth shut even if he knows he is right. He got himself into some trouble in residency with telling people over him that there weren't doing things right. You can imagine how much this would piss someone off. Needless to say, you can see how the admissions commitee saw right through his personality. He did have like 5 interviews. Thats as far as most of them went except one in Kansas City (DO). Also he finished his 4 year bac in 2 years (taking 18-20 credits a semester includind all summers plus cleped some classes) and I heard that admis com don't like this. This is also 10 years ago.

We are from Utah and he never even had a chance here. University of Utah is 80% interviews and 10% gpa and 10% mcat. Thats why he didn't get in. He thinks its becasue he's not mormon but that has nothing to do with it. He is very smart, always has gotten A's even when he was younger. He is making great money now and is pround of his DO but he said he taked to several people including his girlfriend who is in a MD opthomology residency and says that the training is better. I'll ask him to be more specific and ask how he knows that for sure. All in all he is still a doctor and makes the same money as anyone else in his field and can get any job he wants to. Although, because of his problems with residency, he is having problems getting a license in other states. I told him to keep his mouth shut and not to say every thought that comes to his head but think first. He says thats just the way I am and if people don't like it then its just to bad. I keep telling him, money helps but it doesn't make someone happy.

Anyways, sorry I rambled for so long. I get so frustrated with him at times and could go on forever about some of the things he does that I will never be able to understand. Not to mention he acts like my husband won't get into med school. He says, well he should thing about going into nursing. He still has no clue why he had a hard time getting in.

Ok I'll stop now, sorry if I bored you to death

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by AmberE
[B
He also took the USMEL(spelling?) . [/B]

Don't tell me I smell! You smell!

 

[funkless]

Originally posted by AmberE
quoted:
I find it hard to believe that someone with a 36 MCAT and 3.8 gpa, that had ANY ECs would not be able to get into allopathic if they sent out 20 apps.

My brother knew right out of high-school he wanted to be a doctor. It was based on who made the most money. He thought and either a doctor or a lawyer but decided on being a doctor. His people skills are seriously lacking and he does not have much respect for authority or keeping his mouth shut even if he knows he is right

Yeah, that pretty much explains it.


--Funkless

P.S. It's also a good idea not to upbraid your attendings. They don't seem to like that.

 

[jalabert]

That does make some sense. I was going to use one qualifier, for example, with 36 MCAT, 3.8 gpa and ECs that is not a total ____ ___ , but thought better of it.

I have a similar story, that I have told before on another forum, but will retell here. An undergraduate acquaintance of mine scored a 43 MCAT, 4.0 gpa, received his BS at 18, and had ECs. He applied to 11 schools, including Ivy league, Stanford and his state school as a fall back. He knew at that point he wanted to be a radiologist because of money, hours and lack of patient contact. He got rejected from all of the schools other than his state school prior to the interview at that school. He interviewed at the state school and mucked it so bad, he had to request a second interview. He was brutally honest about his motivations for wanting to be a doctor, so he came within one comment of not getting in at all. He wouldn't consider DO at all. I told him that I thought it was admirable he was honest, but I thought he would make a horrible doctor.

It's nice to see the adcoms do take personality into consideration. Although most _____ _____ seem to get through the system anyway.

 

[azcomdiddy]

I'm an osteopathic student so I will honestly reply to your questions.

1. do medical students in allopathic schools consider the osteopathic school counterparts of the same caliber as their allopathic peers?

Medical students don't consider their osteopathic counterparts to be of the same calibre. However, allopathic residents and practicing physicians especially in the primary care fields respect their osteopathic counterparts and see no real distinction. There are exceptions like older physicians who trained in the 60's and 70's, a time when DO's were not as prevalent as today. Medical students and pre-meds look down upon DO's because they haven't had the opportunity to work with them. So the only real contact they had with DO's are as pre-meds. Every allopathic pre-med remembers their friend who had the same GPA they did but didn't score well on the MCAT. So there is that elitist attitude. They feel they aren't the same calibre since they had lower entrance stats. Not all DO's are MD rejected applicants but I would the majority of them are. Of course to us, we could care less what MD's think. We are still doctors in the public's eye.

2. i also recently heard an osteopathic student state that he was going to medical school but i found out that it's actually an osteopath school, is there not a big difference between med school and this other type of osteopath med school?

Osteopathic school is medical school just like allopathic school is medical school. It may be an osteopathic medical school but it is still a medical school. And according to national and state charters DO's are recognized as physicians practicing medicine. DO's aren't recognized as MD's but they are recognized as physicians. Hope that clarified that.

We get the same training as allopathic students in medical school with the additional training of OMM. There are only a few set residencies DO's are limited from. Neurosurgery, radiation oncology, urology, academic medcine, and opthalmology are tough frields for us to enter. Yes, we might be limited to many other ALLOPATHIC residencies. However, DO's have their own residencies in these specialized fields, and allopathic students are prohibited from applying to them. DO's, on the other hand, can apply to both allopathic and osteopathic residencies. This gives DO's an edge in fields like Derm, Ortho surgery and ENT because we only have to compete with students from 20 schools for those spots.

Regarding other fields like anesthesiology, emergency medicine, radiology, general surgery, PM&R and pathology aren't difficult for DO's to enter because allopathic residencies accept them. However, allopathic residencies almost never accept DO's into dermatology, neurosurgery, integrated plastics, ENT and opthalmology. So if your cousin wants to go into one of these fields, it's best she enter an allopathic school. However, keep in mind that most allopathic students let alone osteopathic medical students have a near impossible time matching for these fields too. So, it's not like she will have a big advantage by attending an allopathic school too.

You also have to consider the competition factors. She will be competing against a better calibre student in an allopathic field. For example, I currently have a high class rank and I have a good chance of specializing in a very selective filed. Had I gone to an allopathic school, I don't know if I would have maintained the same class rank because of the competition. You never know? My board scores will speak volumes. Board scores are the most important criteria before titles etc. A DO who scores 240 on step 1 will be preferred over an allopathic student who scores 220 provide this student didn't attend a prestigious medical school like Harvard. Overall, the fear about osteopaths not specializing is a myth and one that I currently laugh especially if I match into my selective surgical field.


3.) I am especially curious as to how med students view osteopath students b/c do they not all work in the same hospital?

Most DO's do work alongside MD's during residency. Again, this is another pre-med myth. Not all DO's do this since many elect or are forced to doing osteopathic residecny. But the MAJORITY of DO's match allopathic residencies.

My advice would be this. If she didn't get into any allopathic school and only one DO school, she should go to the DO school. She can still specialize in many fields. But if she has wanted to be a neurosurgeon, opthalmologist, researcher, academic physician, urologist or radiation oncologist her whole life and can't settle for any other field, she should go to an allopathic medical school hands down.

I will admit this though. If it came down to attending an MD school in a backward state or crappy location, I would attend a DO school in a nice location like Phoenix if primary care was my main goal.. I would much rather be happier in medical school than stuck in some school in BFE with weird classmates. You all know what MD schools I'm talking about. And if you are doing primary care, it doesn't matter if you attend a DO school since there is practically no difference if when trying to match.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by azcomdiddy
I will admit this though. If it came down to attending an MD school in a backward state or crappy location, I would attend a DO school in a nice location like Phoenix if primary care was my main goal.. I would much rather be happier in medical school than stuck in some school in BFE with weird classmates. You all know what MD schools I'm talking about. And if you are doing primary care, it doesn't matter if you attend a DO school since there is practically no difference if when trying to match.

Thanks for that thoughtful response azcomdiddy. What you said above describes my situation perfectly. I'm going for primary care all the way and will probably go DO.