Outpatient Internal Medicine Income

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DrJackRyan

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Starting second year of IM residency in a few months and am starting to weigh the pros and cons of outpatient PCP vs sub-specializing in a primarily outpatient specialty. I understand that income should only be a portion of this consideration but also know that I want to get out of debt as soon as possible and move on with my life and training. Can anyone tell me what offers you were getting for new grads going into PCP positions? I live in the south but am also interested in what others were offered from different areas as well. Looks like the 2019 MGMA says outpatient IM is making in the 270s total compensation in the south (Updated MGMA?). Is this typical for a first job? Would total compensation include malpractice, health insurance, etc? Thanks in advance.

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I'm still a resident, but likely doing PCP when I finish.

My inner city hospital in the Northeast starts PCPs at $220k + production according to the last posting I saw. I think we pay for 100% of benefits on top of this. I know at least one of my academic clinic attendings makes close to $300k.

Now, if you wanted to see uninsured patients for NYC Health + Hospitals, the starting is more like $170k. Conversely, this job in Monterey, CA is advertising that current physicians are making $310-344k a year.
 
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To address the aspect of your question regarding PCP vs outpt subspecialty--the billing is identical so the fellowship doesnt earn more money with any special billing prowess you dont already have coming out of residency. The benefit is you get to filter out stuff PCPs need to deal with (CMS wellness exams, vague complaints/worried well, pain seeking) and focus on a single problem usually. You get to occasionally be more academic than a PCP usually can be.

Rheum and heme/onc make more money than the other outpt specialties (endo/ID) because they get to sell drugs to patients and make commissions on the sale and also infusing them in to people. Allergy makes more because they do skin testing/injections etc. Sleep can make more because OSA followups are super fast (like a 3-5 minute level 3 visit with 2 minutes of documentation) so you can see 40-50 patients a day (and also read PSGs).
 
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If sleep is doing 3-5 minute follow ups they are doing it wrong and only going to piss off their patients. Sleep does 20 or 30 minute follow ups, typically broken down as 30min/30min hours for follow up or consults or 40min/20min consult/follow ups.
 
To address the aspect of your question regarding PCP vs outpt subspecialty--the billing is identical so the fellowship doesnt earn more money with any special billing prowess you dont already have coming out of residency. The benefit is you get to filter out stuff PCPs need to deal with (CMS wellness exams, vague complaints/worried well, pain seeking) and focus on a single problem usually. You get to occasionally be more academic than a PCP usually can be.

Rheum and heme/onc make more money than the other outpt specialties (endo/ID) because they get to sell drugs to patients and make commissions on the sale and also infusing them in to people. Allergy makes more because they do skin testing/injections etc. Sleep can make more because OSA followups are super fast (like a 3-5 minute level 3 visit with 2 minutes of documentation) so you can see 40-50 patients a day (and also read PSGs).
i thought infusion does not make a lot of money anymore. do you know in what range rheum can make in a year? and getting commissions from drugs is only for heme onc and rheum?
 
i thought infusion does not make a lot of money anymore. do you know in what range rheum can make in a year? and getting commissions from drugs is only for heme onc and rheum?
Rheum infusions are getting harder and harder to get. Old docs are holding onto their infusion cohort for dear life. Young docs can’t get enough infusions to be truly profitable due to the number of injectables and the refusal of most insurers to pay for in office.
 
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The pain seeking, CMS wellness exam, and sheer number of issues that need to be managed in much of my PCP panel are what push me away from being a PCP after residency so you all hit the nail on the head. I suppose my real question (in addition to starting salaries of PCP) is how did you all decide to go into outpatient subspecialties rather than jumping out into the workforce as a PCP?
 
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Starting second year of IM residency in a few months and am starting to weigh the pros and cons of outpatient PCP vs sub-specializing in a primarily outpatient specialty. I understand that income should only be a portion of this consideration but also know that I want to get out of debt as soon as possible and move on with my life and training. Can anyone tell me what offers you were getting for new grads going into PCP positions? I live in the south but am also interested in what others were offered from different areas as well. Looks like the 2019 MGMA says outpatient IM is making in the 270s total compensation in the south (Updated MGMA?). Is this typical for a first job? Would total compensation include malpractice, health insurance, etc? Thanks in advance.
My wife is outpatient IM in SC, she grossed a little over that for 2020. Benefits are separate from that.
 
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The pain seeking, CMS wellness exam, and sheer number of issues that need to be managed in much of my PCP panel are what push me away from being a PCP after residency so you all hit the nail on the head. I suppose my real question (in addition to starting salaries of PCP) is how did you all decide to go into outpatient subspecialties rather than jumping out into the workforce as a PCP?
This bears endless repeating: attending clinic is WAY different from residency clinic.

I LOVE CMS wellness exams. The nurse does 90% of the work, literally takes me at most 5 minutes to do and pays very well. Set a policy of no narcotics and you'll see requests for those dry up very quickly.

You can limit patients to X problems/visit if you want and have them come back multiple times. However, with practice that isn't really needed. You get much faster over time and can accomplish more. This is doubly true when you get to know the patients well.
 
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This bears endless repeating: attending clinic is WAY different from residency clinic.

I LOVE CMS wellness exams. The nurse does 90% of the work, literally takes me at most 5 minutes to do and pays very well. Set a policy of no narcotics and you'll see requests for those dry up very quickly.

You can limit patients to X problems/visit if you want and have them come back multiple times. However, with practice that isn't really needed. You get much faster over time and can accomplish more. This is doubly true when you get to know the patients well.
I think the sole purpose of iM residency clinic is to convince you to specialize.
 
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I think the sole purpose of iM residency clinic is to convince you to specialize.

I agree, and my program does it better than some other places I interviewed at (at least we don't prescribe controlled substances which saves us from pain seekers). The only reason I'm still doing primary care is because I had some great rotations as a med student and saw how different it is when you're an attending.

To be honest, even though I'm IM-PC, I've always felt we should just ditch the charade and stop pretending like IM is a primary care specialty. So many IM programs have a halfhearted clinic bolted on to their program, they learn no procedures, no gyn, minimal MSK, minimal psych. Obviously you can do electives or a primary care track (where everyone specializes anyway) and learn some of these in practice but it really seems like a lot of these programs have no interest in teaching broad outpatient medicine.
 
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If sleep is doing 3-5 minute follow ups they are doing it wrong and only going to piss off their patients. Sleep does 20 or 30 minute follow ups, typically broken down as 30min/30min hours for follow up or consults or 40min/20min consult/follow ups.
Even in academics they had 20 minute slots, 15 max in PP from what I saw. And an OSA follow up should not take 30 minutes... It is literally a look at their data card for <1 minute, talking about mask fit/compliance, looking at the ESS, then adjust rx (or not) a sheet on some sort of traching (or not) and out the door. It is an insurance requirement formality for supply renewals as far as I saw. Are you as saying that you do more or that it takes longer?
 
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Even in academics they had 20 minute slots, 15 max in PP from what I saw. And an OSA follow up should not take 30 minutes... It is literally a look at their data card for <1 minute, talking about mask fit/compliance, looking at the ESS, then adjust rx (or not) a sheet on some sort of traching (or not) and out the door. It is an insurance requirement formality for supply renewals as far as I saw. Are you as saying that you do more or that it takes longer?
I'm saying that from the Sleep Medicine people I know, have seen at Big Box shops in previous jobs, and the one that is subleasing from me, that 20min follow up appointments are as fast as they go.

I've been aware of a doc at one location who was doing 4 min appointments years ago and was the biggest earner in the hospital, but after that person left, every patient who returned to that clinic cursed that doctors name - and I made sure not to mention that person's name either. In this era of press ganey scores, online ratings, it just isn't going to fly.

Plus, if a Sleep Doc is plying their specialty well, they'll do their own CBTi and drop a 90833 code which warrants blocking out a 30 min follow up...

There is more to sleep then just OSA and PAP settings/compliance. Insomnia, RLS, sleep hygiene, CBTi, lesser so narcolepsy. Discussing mask discomforts and trouble shooting. Trying to establish rapport to enhance compliance and educate why OSA is important. Done right, its not a quick follow up visit. As an independent doc in the community I pay attention to the feedback I get from patients and don't refer to those mill places. Quality gets my referrals.
 
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I'm saying that from the Sleep Medicine people I know, have seen at Big Box shops in previous jobs, and the one that is subleasing from me, that 20min follow up appointments are as fast as they go.

I've been aware of a doc at one location who was doing 4 min appointments years ago and was the biggest earner in the hospital, but after that person left, every patient who returned to that clinic cursed that doctors name - and I made sure not to mention that person's name either. In this era of press ganey scores, online ratings, it just isn't going to fly.

Plus, if a Sleep Doc is plying their specialty well, they'll do their own CBTi and drop a 90833 code which warrants blocking out a 30 min follow up...
Well the secret is to be the only sleep doc in the area....
 
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You can make a good living doing it and not killing yourself. As VA noted, you need to be efficient billing. Medicare provides a lot of opportunities there. Some advantage plans you can bill 3 codes per visit with medicare wellness, regular preventive code and problem based e&m if they come in with something (99% of the time they will). Its pretty easy to document in most patients level 4s regardless of what brings them in. Also you can't be afraid to bill level 5 when the visit is cumbersome and takes up a lot of time and decision making.

I will say that I think its really hard to do a top notch/comprehensive job as a PCP if you're seeing more than 20 a day. Many jobs will push you to do this and the money itself will push physicians to want to do this. Anyone who says they can see 30 plus patients a day and do a great job is probably not doing as great as they think they are (unless a big majority of your patients are urgent care type visits). That's why I think its so important to bill efficiently.

I'd also argue that although IM isn't your bread and butter trained outpatient medicine, where we lack in some of the basic MSK/gyn/procedure/derm etc, we are equipped to do a much better job of juggling DM, HTN, CAD, CHF, CKD etc in an outpatient setting. This is where I see a lot of patient's who have been seeing family medicine for some time not getting standard of care. I feel like a lot of patients that develop a lot of chronic issues as they age benefit from switching over to an internist. Not to say a lot of FM docs don't do a good job with that, but each specialty is going to have its strengths and weaknesses.
 
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You can make a good living doing it and not killing yourself. As VA noted, you need to be efficient billing. Medicare provides a lot of opportunities there. Some advantage plans you can bill 3 codes per visit with medicare wellness, regular preventive code and problem based e&m if they come in with something (99% of the time they will). Its pretty easy to document in most patients level 4s regardless of what brings them in. Also you can't be afraid to bill level 5 when the visit is cumbersome and takes up a lot of time and decision making.

I will say that I think its really hard to do a top notch/comprehensive job as a PCP if you're seeing more than 20 a day. Many jobs will push you to do this and the money itself will push physicians to want to do this. Anyone who says they can see 30 plus patients a day and do a great job is probably not doing as great as they think they are (unless a big majority of your patients are urgent care type visits). That's why I think its so important to bill efficiently.

I'd also argue that although IM isn't your bread and butter trained outpatient medicine, where we lack in some of the basic MSK/gyn/procedure/derm etc, we are equipped to do a much better job of juggling DM, HTN, CAD, CHF, CKD etc in an outpatient setting. This is where I see a lot of patient's who have been seeing family medicine for some time not getting standard of care. I feel like a lot of patients that develop a lot of chronic issues as they age benefit from switching over to an internist. Not to say a lot of FM docs don't do a good job with that, but each specialty is going to have its strengths and weaknesses.
I'm in the somewhat rare condition of being FP married to an outpatient internist and we do talk shop a lot at home. Speaking in pure generalities, your post is reasonably accurate. But over time those actually tend to equalize out quite a bit. I'm better at train wreck elderly patients with 25 meds and 87 problems than I was 5 years ago and her outpatient procedure/gyn skills have improved significantly as well. Heck, we sometimes end up with patients transferring from one of us to the other (different office, different last names) and neither of us have ever had to make any big changes on those patients.
 
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You can make a good living doing it and not killing yourself. As VA noted, you need to be efficient billing. Medicare provides a lot of opportunities there. Some advantage plans you can bill 3 codes per visit with medicare wellness, regular preventive code and problem based e&m if they come in with something (99% of the time they will). Its pretty easy to document in most patients level 4s regardless of what brings them in. Also you can't be afraid to bill level 5 when the visit is cumbersome and takes up a lot of time and decision making.

I will say that I think its really hard to do a top notch/comprehensive job as a PCP if you're seeing more than 20 a day. Many jobs will push you to do this and the money itself will push physicians to want to do this. Anyone who says they can see 30 plus patients a day and do a great job is probably not doing as great as they think they are (unless a big majority of your patients are urgent care type visits). That's why I think its so important to bill efficiently.

I'd also argue that although IM isn't your bread and butter trained outpatient medicine, where we lack in some of the basic MSK/gyn/procedure/derm etc, we are equipped to do a much better job of juggling DM, HTN, CAD, CHF, CKD etc in an outpatient setting. This is where I see a lot of patient's who have been seeing family medicine for some time not getting standard of care. I feel like a lot of patients that develop a lot of chronic issues as they age benefit from switching over to an internist. Not to say a lot of FM docs don't do a good job with that, but each specialty is going to have its strengths and weaknesses.

I'm in the somewhat rare condition of being FP married to an outpatient internist and we do talk shop a lot at home. Speaking in pure generalities, your post is reasonably accurate. But over time those actually tend to equalize out quite a bit. I'm better at train wreck elderly patients with 25 meds and 87 problems than I was 5 years ago and her outpatient procedure/gyn skills have improved significantly as well. Heck, we sometimes end up with patients transferring from one of us to the other (different office, different last names) and neither of us have ever had to make any big changes on those patients.
What made you both (or your wife in the case of VA Hopeful) decide to work as a PCP rather than to pursue fellowships? Did you particularly enjoy the outpatient medicine experiences in residency, prefer the schedule, realize the money of getting started right out of residency flipped the scales, etc? I realize I’m probably jumping the gun on thinking about this already since I still have elective rotations in these outpatient subpecialties in second year but wanted to get a head start on the thought process. I appreciate everyone’s input!
 
What made you both (or your wife in the case of VA Hopeful) decide to work as a PCP rather than to pursue fellowships? Did you particularly enjoy the outpatient medicine experiences in residency, prefer the schedule, realize the money of getting started right out of residency flipped the scales, etc? I realize I’m probably jumping the gun on thinking about this already since I still have elective rotations in these outpatient subpecialties in second year but wanted to get a head start on the thought process. I appreciate everyone’s input!
She hated residency deeply so the idea of spending more time in training wasn't an option. Plus, she likes being a generalist. She was a hospitalist for 3 years but when she missed our girls first real Christmas because she had to work, she started looking for outpatient jobs.
 
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The pain seeking, CMS wellness exam, and sheer number of issues that need to be managed in much of my PCP panel are what push me away from being a PCP after residency so you all hit the nail on the head. I suppose my real question (in addition to starting salaries of PCP) is how did you all decide to go into outpatient subspecialties rather than jumping out into the workforce as a PCP?
Because the idea of doing outpatient IM was like having a needle in my eye...I hated my residency IM clinics.

I love the subject matter of endocrine so would rather get paid less than do pcp... god bless those of you that do it!
 
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And apparently treat your patients like ATMs since they won’t complain as they have no other options.
Nice.
Or just practice the way you want without worry that you won't have enough patients. At least that's how I read it.
 
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Or just practice the way you want without worry that you won't have enough patients. At least that's how I read it.
Except he/she is talking of five minute visits which others agree are not enough for sleep. To me it’s possibly taking advantage of the situation although I am no sleep expert. @jdh71 is a pulm doc and he seems to agree with @Sushirolls that the visits should be longer. So I see it as more money a making scheme regardless of whether it’s good for the patients.
 
Except he/she is talking of five minute visits which others agree are not enough for sleep. To me it’s possibly taking advantage of the situation although I am no sleep expert. @jdh71 is a pulm doc and he seems to agree with @Sushirolls that the visits should be longer. So I see it as more money a making scheme regardless of whether it’s good for the patients.
Maybe, or maybe that person can do an acceptable job for OSA follow ups in less than 10 minutes.

We have a family doctor in our group who sees 35+ patients/day. That works out to 10-ish minutes per appointment. When I first got here I assumed he was either referring out everything or doing a bad job. Between call and picking up a few of his patients over the years, I haven't been able to find anything that he did/didn't do that caught my attention.
 
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Maybe, or maybe that person can do an acceptable job for OSA follow ups in less than 10 minutes.

We have a family doctor in our group who sees 35+ patients/day. That works out to 10-ish minutes per appointment. When I first got here I assumed he was either referring out everything or doing a bad job. Between call and picking up a few of his patients over the years, I haven't been able to find anything that he did/didn't do that caught my attention.
Could be. Maybe he or she is a superstar. I am jaded because I have seen docs treating patients like ATMs.
 
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Could be. Maybe he or she is a superstar. I am jaded because I have seen docs treating patients like ATMs.
Have you done outpatient medicine to know whether or not that is adequate? I dont do sleep but when I rotated through even being a noob I could see how fast I got after 2 weeks at outpt OSA follow ups as long as you can point people to other resources (usually the DME company) to fix things that require time like mask fit because the entire process is extremely formulaic and modern CPAP machines basically do all the work for you and the entire visit is a formality. Some PCPs manage it because they have realized this while other remain too uncomfortable to do so. There is a massive sleep shortage in the US so there is usually a supply issue rather than a demand problem and if someone doesn't like their sleep doc it could be an hours long drive to find another one.
 
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Have you done outpatient medicine to know whether or not that is adequate? I dont do sleep but when I rotated through even being a noob I could see how fast I got after 2 weeks at outpt OSA follow ups as long as you can point people to other resources (usually the DME company) to fix things that require time like mask fit because the entire process is extremely formulaic and modern CPAP machines basically do all the work for you and the entire visit is a formality. Some PCPs manage it because they have realized this while other remain too uncomfortable to do so. There is a massive sleep shortage in the US so there is usually a supply issue rather than a demand problem and if someone doesn't like their sleep doc it could be an hours long drive to find another one.
Like I said, maybe you are a superstar. Or maybe not.
 
Except he/she is talking of five minute visits which others agree are not enough for sleep. To me it’s possibly taking advantage of the situation although I am no sleep expert. @jdh71 is a pulm doc and he seems to agree with @Sushirolls that the visits should be longer. So I see it as more money a making scheme regardless of whether it’s good for the patients.

It really all depends. When a sleep visit is complex it is complex. Especially if there is some kind of overlap that is also being managed by the sleep physician. Perhaps bad copd with chronic hypercapnia or neuromuscular resp illness like ALS. One probably can see many straightforward OSA follow ups pretty quickly. With the new E/M outpatient documentation rules as well you probably can see these patients really quick. I don’t know about five minutes. But. You can see some patients relatively quick. Someone could streamline much of their practice for quick visits depending on problem and specialty. You also get faster and more efficient outpatient that takes YEARS to develop. If you want to. Some of my partners just don’t seem to want to be efficient. Efficiency in clinic is INTENTIONAL.
 
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