outsourcing radiology to India

Started by doctor7
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

doctor7

Member
20+ Year Member
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I have no idea, so wanted to see if anyone knew the progress of such endeavors? It seems that liability issues would be pretty difficult to overcome...not to mention that US radiologists would have a few things to say about it. Finally, is this even a realistic threat to future US radiologists?
 
doctor7 said:
I have no idea, so wanted to see if anyone knew the progress of such endeavors? It seems that liability issues would be pretty difficult to overcome...not to mention that US radiologists would have a few things to say about it. Finally, is this even a realistic threat to future US radiologists?
I do not think that outsourcing should be a major problem. I may be wrong, but I think that the final report on an imaging study must be done by a radiologist licensed by the US, for liability reasons. So, US radiologists are always needed. Perhaps a non-licensed physician can provide a preliminary report.
 
buddym said:
I think that the final report on an imaging study must be done by a radiologist licensed by the US, for liability reasons.

Sort of ...

The final report has to be under the name of a US licensed _physician_, primarily because it would be practicing without a license otherwise - illegal and unbillable.

The real question will be whether anyone takes fully trained indian radiologists and has them complete a US internship to get a permanent license. They could then legally work in a manner identical to US radiologists. No, they wouldn't be boarded, but that's not a consideration for licensure or medicare reimbursement. Liability in this scheme would be an interesting issue - the business could easily be structured as judgement-proof in the US. Maybe the lawyers would go after referring physicians and/or hospitals.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I think there is another angle to this.

The newer breed of radiologists are going to be more of a type A personality than the older breed. They are more likely to fight outsourcing and protect their turf. While the field won't be as "laid-back" as before, we have to realize that nobody is going tolerate having people paid $400,000+/year to work 9AM - 5PM (3 PM on Fridays).

Really, echocardiograms could easily be outsourced, too. But the cardiologist are generally Type A and will never let this happen. Ever!
 
Almost all of the community hospitals at which I interviewed used something called the nighthawk system. The nighthawk system is frequently used by hospitals with no radiology residency program at night when there is no staff radiologist available. A digitized radiograph is sent to a radiologist somewhere in the world and a fully dictated report is available within a few hours. The residents raved about how great this is. I thought it would be terrible not to have someone available to discuss a finding.
 
I believe Nighthawk is just used for preliminary reads. The hospital's radiologists must review the films in the morning.
 
The thing about outsourcing to India... while some hospitals may be doing this, there isnt any real danger from this b/c if you think about it there is no way that there are nearly enough US trained Indian radiologists to run all the Americans out of business. Also, the use of imaging in medical care is only increasing. Thus demand for radiologists and the volume of studies needing to be read will increase as well. Finally, this issue about discussing a case is a valid one. Some of the better hospitals in the nation will likely avoid complete outsourcing b/c good radiologists are not just film readers they are physicians who act as consultants in patient care. This cant easily be done across thousands of miles of ocean.
 
Most of the "outsourcing" is done by the Radiologists themselves. For instance, typically my hospital has 3-5 cases (CT usually) after midnight. Rather that get woken up every hour or two, we have a "nighthawk" service
provide preliminary reads. This makes it possible to work the next day and is much more cost-effective than wasting a whole night reading only a few cases. The "nighthawk" service we use is in the US, the docs are board-certified and had to get state licenses and privileges at the hospital.

The reason many services are in India, Australia, Israel, etc is that when it's night here, it's day over there, and they can work a normal "9-5".

There are limitations in "outsourcing" that will probably protect radiologists.
First, hospitals need doctors in house during daytime hours to provide readings. The outsourcing model really doesn't work for most of the daily work.

For outpatient offices, a doctor has to be on site for injections for MRI and CT (varies somewhat by state). Also, often the radiologists own the office and own/lease the equipment. Also, more and more, radiologists are doing
procedures which require being on site. Finally, until all the patient's information is digitized (including old films from other sites), final reads will require being where the patient/films are.

And last, you must be licensed in the state you are reading the films from. I also believe you must be in the US to provide a final reading for medicare patients.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Hey everyone, felt compelled to throw my two cents in. I am completely ignorant of all the licensing considerations involved in this but I have extensive experience in outsourcing in another industry(computer programming).

If you can not envision a scenario where Radiology is successfully outsourced to India....then you are fooling yourself. Whatever hurdles there are, they can and will overcome them if the 'powers to be' in the US want it to happen.

India has a ton of hard working, conscientious people that are willing to work day and night to 'make it'. They are willing to work much more than Americans and they are paid at least a third less. Don't get me wrong...we are hard workers too but we get paid a hell of alot more than our Indian counterparts.

In computer programming everyone said that there was no way it could be done, it not only was done but done very quickly. Now, it is near impossible to get a job as a computer programmer due to low paying outsourced jobs in India.

All I am saying is that if you are considering radiology then make sure you do your homework and understand the current direction of Radiology outsourcing. I don't think US students will have trouble getting a job if outsourcing hits full steam...but it will definitely not be at a salary that you will be happy with.

My two cents...

Scott
 
DrScott said:
Hey everyone, felt compelled to throw my two cents in. I am completely ignorant of all the licensing considerations involved in this but I have extensive experience in outsourcing in another industry(computer programming).

If you can not envision a scenario where Radiology is successfully outsourced to India....then you are fooling yourself. Whatever hurdles there are, they can and will overcome them if the 'powers to be' in the US want it to happen.

So how does one outsource procedures that require the radiologist to be there? Besides, in order to practice medicine in any state, you've got to be licensed in the state... and hospitals are always wanting boarded physicians b/c of the liability involved.
 
awdc said:
So how does one outsource procedures that require the radiologist to be there? Besides, in order to practice medicine in any state, you've got to be licensed in the state... and hospitals are always wanting boarded physicians b/c of the liability involved.

Of course I am only speaking of procedures that do not require physical presence of the radiologist. That said, in computer programming (my only experience with outsourcing), there are MANY on-site outsourced people. Don't confuse 'outsourced' with 'offsite'. We tried to keep a 80/20 rule where 20% of the India folks were onsite. There is nothing stopping the 'powers that be' to support IMG's from doing residencies in the US and then being licensed in the US in a variety of states. If you think about it, it is a win-win situation. The IMG get's a US education, the offshore company get's cheap labor, and the IMG eventually gets to go back to his home in India well educated and well-respected.

Scott
 
DrScott said:
Hey everyone, felt compelled to throw my two cents in. I am completely ignorant of all the licensing considerations involved in this but I have extensive experience in outsourcing in another industry(computer programming).

If you can not envision a scenario where Radiology is successfully outsourced to India....then you are fooling yourself. Whatever hurdles there are, they can and will overcome them if the 'powers to be' in the US want it to happen.

India has a ton of hard working, conscientious people that are willing to work day and night to 'make it'. They are willing to work much more than Americans and they are paid at least a third less. Don't get me wrong...we are hard workers too but we get paid a hell of alot more than our Indian counterparts.

In computer programming everyone said that there was no way it could be done, it not only was done but done very quickly. Now, it is near impossible to get a job as a computer programmer due to low paying outsourced jobs in India.

All I am saying is that if you are considering radiology then make sure you do your homework and understand the current direction of Radiology outsourcing. I don't think US students will have trouble getting a job if outsourcing hits full steam...but it will definitely not be at a salary that you will be happy with.

My two cents...

Scott

Although your logic is clear indeed, it is hard to image equating computer programming with an individuals health. Americans are quite pissy about having the best health care available and I can't see them approving this trend.
 
DrScott said:
Of course I am only speaking of procedures that do not require physical presence of the radiologist. That said, in computer programming (my only experience with outsourcing), there are MANY on-site outsourced people. Don't confuse 'outsourced' with 'offsite'. We tried to keep a 80/20 rule where 20% of the India folks were onsite. There is nothing stopping the 'powers that be' to support IMG's from doing residencies in the US and then being licensed in the US in a variety of states. If you think about it, it is a win-win situation. The IMG get's a US education, the offshore company get's cheap labor, and the IMG eventually gets to go back to his home in India well educated and well-respected.

Scott

There are US med school grads that cannot get a residency, you think that more IMG's should get spots precluding more US grads from spots? The only way this would happen is to open up more residency spots and even then more US grads will scramble to get in those.
 
Please do not read into my post...I'm not saying anything 'should' happen. I am just saying what I think is going to happen. I am against outsourcing of highly skilled jobs.

Many posts on here assume that Americans, doctors, or the public in general have some say in whether outsourcing happens or not. This is a naive viewpoint. Over 30 years ago thousands of hard-working blue-collar workers were outsourced and white collar workers didn't have any complaints. Ten years ago white collar workers started being outsourced and 1000's of white collar workers cried foul...and it still happended. Regardless of who is against it, if the people in power(which isn't the docs or the general public) see the economic viability of such an endeavor, it will happen.

And you can compare computer programming with medicine in certain hands-off situations because they are both white-collar jobs that require skilled work. Ten years ago I would have told you that you were crazy in thinking that they could outsource something as skilled as computer programming. Five years later I was working exclusively with outsourced people in India and hoping to keep my job.

I'm on the same side as everyone on this forum. I just don't want people to stick their head in the sand and come up with a ton of reasons why it is not going to happen. You should start looking at how they CAN make it happen. That is how they are thinking about outsourcing.

Scott
 
^Your perspective is all off.

Corporations control manufacturing and tech jobs.

Docs work for themselves in small or large groups or for a University of County hospital.

Let's just focus on the private practice groups. No one "hires" and then pays radiologists, like someone hires a computer programmer. Radiologists perform their service and then bill insurance company or medicaire or the patient.

I suppose the only theoretical way would be if an insurance company required patients to go to imaging centers and then sent the images over to India. But that is never going to happen. Docs like to talk to radiologists when they have questions. They won't settle for that, talking to someone 4000 miles away who didn't even read their CT or MRI. And patients wouldn't like it either. If implemented it would fail. ANd it won't ever be implemented.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
DrScott said:
Please do not read into my post...I'm not saying anything 'should' happen. I am just saying what I think is going to happen. I am against outsourcing of highly skilled jobs.

And you can compare computer programming with medicine in certain hands-off situations because they are both white-collar jobs that require skilled work. Ten years ago I would have told you that you were crazy in thinking that they could outsource something as skilled as computer programming. Five years later I was working exclusively with outsourced people in India and hoping to keep my job.

Scott

You do not have to "read into" your post to see that you lumped computer programming skill and image reading skill in the same commodity category.

Radiology Reading Skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computer Programming Skill

You can't train and licence someone to read images in two or even four years like you can with computer programming (or 6 months for that matter).
 
iatrosB said:
You do not have to "read into" your post to see that you lumped computer programming skill and image reading skill in the same commodity category.

Radiology Reading Skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computer Programming Skill

You can't train and licence someone to read images in two or even four years like you can with computer programming (or 6 months for that matter).

WOW, spoken like somebody who doesn't know jack sh1t about computer programming. Mastering that art takes dedication, talent and time. Becoming a truly skilled coder is something I personally don't think I could even aspire to.
 
sacrament said:
WOW, spoken like somebody who doesn't know jack sh1t about computer programming. Mastering that art takes dedication, talent and time. Becoming a truly skilled coder is something I personally don't think I could even aspire to.

Yeah and you wouldn't have to to be competent enough for outsourcing. I hardly think that a minor in comp. sci., year internship at a major IT firm, and many family members in the business constitutes "jack sh1t" but then again we all have different standards. Sorry that you are so defensive about it but do you really think the two compare? I am not saying programming is not difficult, I have spent significant time with it and am still not proficient. But seriously look at the training time, comp sci- 4 years more than adequate for entry level; radiology 13 years just to be qualified. Don't kid yourself, not even close.
 
iatrosB said:
Although your logic is clear indeed, it is hard to image equating computer programming with an individuals health. Americans are quite pissy about having the best health care available and I can't see them approving this trend.

People put up with Sh-tty Microsoft products all the time. People will not tolerate substandard healthcare, or bad outcomes.
 
I often wonder how accurate this comparison to computer programming outsourcing actually is. Last time I checked, an MRI costs about a little over a grand and a CT is a couple hundred bucks. India is not exactly a bastion of high-tech healthcare spending. How many CT or MRI machines are currently in India? How many radiologists trained in these modalities even exist there? Last time I checked, computer science is a four-year undergraduate degree that realistically requires only a computer and strength of will. Radiology is a five-year residency on top of med school that requires a lot of quite expensive medical equipment. Where exactly did all these theoretical Indian radiologists to whom we will be outsourcing get their training? Are they going to read a book on it and practice on their computer and then replace US radiologists without ever actually practicing in a hospital that actually has these technologies?
 
WatchingWaiting said:
I often wonder how accurate this comparison to computer programming outsourcing actually is. Last time I checked, an MRI costs about a little over a grand and a CT is a couple hundred bucks. India is not exactly a bastion of high-tech healthcare spending. How many CT or MRI machines are currently in India? How many radiologists trained in these modalities even exist there? Last time I checked, computer science is a four-year undergraduate degree that realistically requires only a computer and strength of will. Radiology is a five-year residency on top of med school that requires a lot of quite expensive medical equipment. Where exactly did all these theoretical Indian radiologists to whom we will be outsourcing get their training? Are they going to read a book on it and practice on their computer and then replace US radiologists without ever actually practicing in a hospital that actually has these technologies?

There was a study I participated in back in undergraduate where a radiologist was trying to measure the accuracy with which laymen could detect a breast lesion on mammography. I don't know what became of the study.

Radiologic digitized images can be placed in a workflow system and forwarded to a radiologist or image reader via the internet.

So, the equipment can be in the US, but the reading can take place anywhere in the world.
 
MD'05 said:
Radiologic digitized images can be placed in a workflow system and forwarded to a radiologist or image reader via the internet.

So, the equipment can be in the US, but the reading can take place anywhere in the world.

Read by a US trained and licienced physician (anywhere).
 
WatchingWaiting said:
I often wonder how accurate this comparison to computer programming outsourcing actually is. Last time I checked, an MRI costs about a little over a grand and a CT is a couple hundred bucks. India is not exactly a bastion of high-tech healthcare spending. How many CT or MRI machines are currently in India? How many radiologists trained in these modalities even exist there? Last time I checked, computer science is a four-year undergraduate degree that realistically requires only a computer and strength of will. Radiology is a five-year residency on top of med school that requires a lot of quite expensive medical equipment. Where exactly did all these theoretical Indian radiologists to whom we will be outsourcing get their training? Are they going to read a book on it and practice on their computer and then replace US radiologists without ever actually practicing in a hospital that actually has these technologies?

There are 3500-4500 radiologists in India. The US has about 30,000 radiologists and a shortage of about 3500 radiologists.

CT and MRI machines are in the hundreds in all of India (for a population of over 1 billion). There are over 5000 MRIs alone in the US. Many many more CTs. There is actually a shortage of radiologists throughout the world, not just the US. There are not enough rads for India. American licensed and board certified rads in India are very few (I have heard of two). That is what you need in order to provide the official final interpretation of a study.

The quality of training and level of expertise is definitely questionable. We recently did an over-read on a CT done in Mexico that was interpreted as lung and liver mets from gastric cancer. The lung met was a Bochdalek hernia and the liver mets were more likely cysts. This guy had gotten chemo instead of surgery b/c of these "mets." How many of those doctors that gleefully decree that radiology will be outsourced (just read some of the comments on the neurology board for example) would want a foreign rad reading their mothers study?

We are doctors who have undergone extensive specialization in a specialty that often makes a huge difference in the care of the patient, including life and death in certain cases. We are not programming a video game here. The comparison is entirely inaccurate and insulting.

Oh yeah, I heard FPs are gonna be replaced by the customer service reps for Dell in India. 🙄
 
Thank you for bringing some facts to this silly discussion!
Arguing that Radiology can be outsourced is very much like arguing that
Nurse's lines can be outsourced to call centers in other countries, or that Neurologist can be replaced by a combination of an Nursing Assistant (PE) who reports via a phone call to a Neurologist in China.

With regards to the neurology thread, that I have somewhat been following,
i feel like some people have realized that MRI/CT can be useful in diagnosing disorders
of the CNS and are now wondering why they aren't being paid for it. They have finally figured out that Radiologist are basically doing their job for them, whenever they diagnose a lesion.

Finally with regards to outsourcing in medicine, yes it can be done for secretarial duties (although most people wouldn't like their mom's incontince problems to be floating around on the ever-so-secure Internet). And yes, any study can be transferred to another country and "read" by any doctor, the question is do you want that study to be your uncle who's in the ER with a possible stroke?

Whether people like it or not, some things in medicine cannot driven by market-forces, and the government (thank God!) has a say in it. Even if it's cheaper for an HMO not to give free drugs to an uninsured homeless, the cost of him giving 20 people TB while on a bus, is going to be much greater.

My apologies for the rant, had some steam i needed to vent = )
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
There are 3500-4500 radiologists in India. The US has about 30,000 radiologists and a shortage of about 3500 radiologists.

CT and MRI machines are in the hundreds in all of India (for a population of over 1 billion). There are over 5000 MRIs alone in the US. Many many more CTs. There is actually a shortage of radiologists throughout the world, not just the US. There are not enough rads for India. American licensed and board certified rads in India are very few (I have heard of two). That is what you need in order to provide the official final interpretation of a study.

The quality of training and level of expertise is definitely questionable. We recently did an over-read on a CT done in Mexico that was interpreted as lung and liver mets from gastric cancer. The lung met was a Bochdalek hernia and the liver mets were more likely cysts. This guy had gotten chemo instead of surgery b/c of these "mets." How many of those doctors that gleefully decree that radiology will be outsourced (just read some of the comments on the neurology board for example) would want a foreign rad reading their mothers study?

We are doctors who have undergone extensive specialization in a specialty that often makes a huge difference in the care of the patient, including life and death in certain cases. We are not programming a video game here. The comparison entirely inaccurate and insulting.

Oh yeah, I heard FPs are gonna be replaced by the customer service reps for Dell in India. 🙄

I was beginning to think that I was the only one that felt that way. 😡
 
My wife's hospital just switched to a nighthawk like system.I am afraid mine is next. As near as I can tell the winners are nighthawk and the radiologists who give up a tiny percent of their income to pay for "preliminary" reads in return for a good nights sleep. The losers are the patients and the clinicians. In the past I got a call from the radiologist and a discussion. Now all I will get is a short faxed preliminary read and a lot of trouble getting a hold of the nighthawk radiologist for a discussion. Sometimes this discussion was invaluable for me in that the radiologists are the experts at listing the differential for obscure imaging finding, something that is missing from the faxed nighthawk report. Sometimes a detailed discussion of the patients history and physical clued the radiologist into something they otherwise would have missed on the study.

I think the degree to which radiology gets outsourced will be up to the radiologists. After all it was the radiologists at my wifes hospital, not the hospital or insurance companies, that pushed for and paid for the nighthawk like system. What, other than liability, is to keep them in the future from farming out all there diagnostic imaging and just doing the procedural stuff themselves. One radiologist can probably "overread" and sign off on the dications from many more preliminary reads than they can read and dictate raw studies. Thus a small radiology group could stay small, keep most of the money for themselves, and just farm out all their diagnostic preliminary reads as their volume increased, rather than hire more radiologists to share the pie. We've seen similar behaivior in my city with the dermatologists and plastics guys setting up multiple clinics staffed by midlevels to provide laser and botox like procedures. Theoretically, the dermatologists is supervising these midlevels but in practice they just sign the charts. In at least a few cases the clinic was owned by the midlevel and the dermatologist was hired to "supervise", i.e. sign charts
 
tum said:
does anyone know if us trained nighthawks in india make the same as us trained radiologists? ie. would there be incentive to use them over american radiologists for cost alone or do nighthawk companies demand a certain percentage of their radiologists' gross income or can radiology practices negotiate to have cheaper nighthawk services etc.?

The number of "US trained" nighthawks in India is essentially 0 (ok I exaggerate, maybe the acutal number is closer to 5 of 10). If you were a US trained radiologist, where would you work (remember with the US shortage, anyone can get immigration as a US board certified radiologist)?

Conversely, if you were one of the vanishingly few determined to return to India (to bring your skill to a developing country) would you work as a nighthawk for a US hospital??

For teleradiology to be cost effective, non-US trained radiologists would have to work. This is akin to allowing non-boarded cardiologists, surgeons, etc to practice in the US. What about lay-people with an interest in medicine? From a regulatory point of view, they are just as qualified (due to the diversity of educational systems around the world, we cannot be sure that all countries train "radiologists" the same way)

The only way teleradiology can be a threat to radiology is if radiology is deemed a non-medical profession, that unlike all other specialties, is not subject to the need for standardized training and board certification, a very unlikely scenario. Even still, the rest of the world does not train many radiologists compared to the US, (India has perhaps 3000, the US 30000!!) so the world-wide labor force for radiology is actually already concentrated in the US.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
There are 3500-4500 radiologists in India. The US has about 30,000 radiologists and a shortage of about 3500 radiologists.

CT and MRI machines are in the hundreds in all of India (for a population of over 1 billion). There are over 5000 MRIs alone in the US. Many many more CTs. There is actually a shortage of radiologists throughout the world, not just the US. There are not enough rads for India. American licensed and board certified rads in India are very few (I have heard of two). That is what you need in order to provide the official final interpretation of a study.

The quality of training and level of expertise is definitely questionable. We recently did an over-read on a CT done in Mexico that was interpreted as lung and liver mets from gastric cancer. The lung met was a Bochdalek hernia and the liver mets were more likely cysts. This guy had gotten chemo instead of surgery b/c of these "mets." How many of those doctors that gleefully decree that radiology will be outsourced (just read some of the comments on the neurology board for example) would want a foreign rad reading their mothers study?

We are doctors who have undergone extensive specialization in a specialty that often makes a huge difference in the care of the patient, including life and death in certain cases. We are not programming a video game here. The comparison is entirely inaccurate and insulting.

Oh yeah, I heard FPs are gonna be replaced by the customer service reps for Dell in India. 🙄

Well said - Comparing Computer programming, I am a Sr. Internet backbone engineer w/ programming experience, to Radiology or any of the Health professions is like comparing apples and oranges - nothing is the same. In addition, the nature of the computer industry in general is geared towards large scale Wide Area Network communications. The industry strives towards long distance communications, eliminating the time involved in most modern cross country transactions, etc. So outsourcing fits w/ the industry's business model and natural progression, unlike the health fields.
 
iatrosB said:
Although your logic is clear indeed, it is hard to image equating computer programming with an individuals health. Americans are quite pissy about having the best health care available and I can't see them approving this trend.

Americans are even more pissy about higher prices especially in the healthcare setting!
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
J Lucas said:
Americans are even more pissy about higher prices especially in the healthcare setting!

That's true and insurers are even pissier. Patients want care for free and so do insurers.
 
J Lucas said:
Americans are even more pissy about higher prices especially in the healthcare setting!

I can't argue with that. 👍
 
ERMudPhud nailed it.

Look the real problem here is greedy AMERICAN radiologists who set this **** up to make money. They arent happy covering night shifts 2 times a week and making 400k, so instead they sell out their profession, set up telerads with India and make 500k and cover 0 nights per week.

American radiologists are in control of the outsourcing. Take that fool at MGH. He's an american radiologist selling out his profession for extra $$$ and because he doesnt want to be bothered with reading night films once in a while. So because of his petty bull****, there may be serious consequences for the field 20 years down the line.

Telerads was NEVER a threat until AMERICAN RADIOLOGISTS IN AMERICAN HOSPITALS started whoring themselves out for money/free time.

Thats a damn shame considering rads are already among hte highest paid docs. But yet fools like the guy at MGH arent satisfied with their lifestyle so they decide to sell ALL OF US out so they can bank an extra 100k. 🙄
 
Here is what happens to those who advocate outsourcing, take this prestigious radiologist who was a professor at Harvard Medical School.

This is when he first advocated outsourcing:

MGH examines India for X-ray reading help
Hospital may use radiologists there
By Martin Desmarais
Published: 10/15/2002

Jo-Anne O. Shepard, M.D., director of thoracic radiology at Massachusetts General Hospital, examines X-rays. A shortage of radiologists is causing officials to consider outsourcing diagnostics to other countries.


BOSTON — Hospitals have a problem finding radiologists, whose salaries are skyrocketing, said Dr. Sanjay Saini. He believes India has the solution.

Since most X-rays are now digital and can be sent in electronic files, Saini said it is feasible that radiologists in other countries can examine X-rays over the Internet.

Saini is an associate professor of radiology at Harvard Medical School and on staff in the radiology department in Boston’s Massachusetts General Hospital.

He said several radiology centers are already examining X-rays over the Web. These include the School of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University, which works with radiologists in Australia, and The University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, which works with radiologists in Israel.

For Mass General, Saini has enlisted the help of the Bangalore-based Wipro Ltd., a software provider with over 9,500 software engineers and offices in 27 locations around the world. Wipro would set up the technological infrastructure that will allow Mass General to work with radiologists in India.

Mass General and Wipro are currently working to put an initial system in place to see how it works.

In the last few years, the number of radiologists graduating from colleges across the country has decreased significantly, leaving hospitals such as Mass General scrambling for staff, Saini said.

At the same time, he added, the expanded use of radiology — from traditional diagnostics for bone injuries to preventive measures for detecting cancer or coronary diseases — has increased the need for radiologists.

“The problem we are trying to solve is a mismatch of demand for services and radiology specialists,” he said.

Further complicating the matter, Saini added, is that because the demand for radiologists has increased, professionals in the field have begun to demand higher salaries and better working hours.

While hospitals need a radiologist available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, many radiologists are looking to work fewer hours and avoid weekends altogether. It’s an arrangement some hospitals are willing to make because they need staff so badly, Saini said.

As a result, hospitals such as Mass General are losing staff, he said. For example, the University of Massachusetts Medical Center has lost half its radiology staff in the last seven months, he said.

With a six-year college-training curve for radiologists, the problem shows no signs of getting better.

Saini said there are three possible solutions: computer-aided diagnostics that could interpret X-rays; physician’s assistants to replace radiologists in some cases; and outsourcing diagnostics to other countries, where there is less of a demand for radiologists.

However, since computer-aided diagnostics are not available yet and physician’s assistants are not certified to diagnose X-rays, outsourcing is the most viable and immediately available option.

According to Saini, the plan is to find doctors here in the United States who are willing to go back to India and work, on the one hand; and on the other, to bring doctors from India, train them here and then send them back.

He said India is a good country to work with on such a program because there is no shortage of radiologists and their salaries are much lower.

In the United States, he continued, radiologists make between $300,000 and $500,000, whereas in India they make the equivalent of between $10,000 and $25,000.

“Even if we pay a radiologist $100,000 in India, it is still more cost-effective,” Saini said.

More importantly, he stressed, if Mass General can set up an effective program with radiologists in India it will be a model to use across the United States in combating the radiologist shortage.

Saini said he believes Mass General will have something in place soon to test the system.

The focus, he added, will be to ensure that the quality of work remains the same and that Mass General has the highest confidence in the offshore radiologists.

“We are certainly not going to send our stuff to the unknown,” Saini said. “From a hospital’s perspective, as long as we maintain the quality … (we don’t) care where the work is being done.”

There are some licensing and insurances issues that arise concerning such arrangements, Saini said. But, most of these can be overcome by getting licenses in India and setting up a check-list system so that all diagnostics from India are co-signed by Mass General staff, he said.

Look at where he is now: (read at the bottom)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6621014/



words of advice: your reputation as a physician is the most important thing you have. Lose the respect of your peers and your patients and you have nothing...
 
MD'05 said:
There was a study I participated in back in undergraduate where a radiologist was trying to measure the accuracy with which laymen could detect a breast lesion on mammography. I don't know what became of the study.

When I get time, I will see if I can find this published study. It was pretty scary because this radiologist wanted to see if non-doctors could detect lesions on mammographic images. It actually was not that difficult once you knew what to look for.
 
Mammography lends itself to non-physician (or computer) reading because:

There's basically no anatomy
You're looking for exactly 1 disease (cancer)
If you see anything you do additional tests to determine what it is.
You usually have a prior study, so you're really just looking for changes.

Most other studies are not this simple (lung nodules in chest films being
one other area I know is being worked on).
 
Mammography is one of the most sued readings that any radiologist can do. It doesn't seem very easy and some radiologists fear to even read these because of the threat of being sued. Mammographies will most often get checked by 2 and sometimes even 3 radiologists just because of this very threat. It really sucks because women are only hurting themselves since most imaging places are not doing mammography anymore. I didn't know that computers could even be used yet, do you think that using computers would be better or could catch more cancers?

http://www.imagingeconomics.com/library/200206-09.asp

http://www.earlier.org/do_mammograms_pass_the_test.htm

richardepstein said:
Mammography lends itself to non-physician (or computer) reading because:

There's basically no anatomy
You're looking for exactly 1 disease (cancer)
If you see anything you do additional tests to determine what it is.
You usually have a prior study, so you're really just looking for changes.

Most other studies are not this simple (lung nodules in chest films being
one other area I know is being worked on).
 
iatrosB said:
I was beginning to think that I was the only one that felt that way. 😡

I agree... comparing Rads to computer programming is extremely insulting...
 
GoPistons said:
I agree... comparing Rads to computer programming is extremely insulting...
I don't think it's insulting, but that's it's comparing apples to oranges, plain and simple.

But if you had to compare them directly in the amount of work involved (formal or informal [i.e. years of education]) to achieve a level of satisfactory/qualified performance (let alone "mastery", if that is ever really attained), radiology >>> computer programming for sure.

I can learn to program on my PC at home using Google, my brain, and a spare hour every night. I cannot learn to read MRI's & CT's like that. No way.

And here's a question regarding a previous comment: who is [this apparently greedy] "MGH" individual?
 
Dude_Lebowski said:
I don't think it's insulting, but that's it's comparing apples to oranges, plain and simple.

I think that you can contrast the "outsourcing" which has occurred in the technology industry with that which is occurring in the medical industry. Radiology was first and ICU will be next with the advent of the ICU robot.

The knowledge base of radiology is definitely not comparable with computer programming.