Over-Represented Minorities

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The stupidity of what you are not understanding is that the 240 step 1 person is bound to go into a competitive field like surgery, derm, rad onco, but then who is left to treat the lay person as he needs to see a family practice doctor?? That's right!!! It is going to be the person who might not have necessarily been the highest scorer in the class but who knows how to be successful at what they do in a family practice.

Physicians who graduate at the top of their class are more likely to be more successful than those who graduate at the bottom.

I'm trying to understand what your argument is. If we eliminate AA, there will still be students who graduate towards the bottom of their class to fill these non-competitive residencies.
 
Ryo-Ohki, How do you suggest we fix the problems with underserved communities?
 
Ryo-Ohki, How do you suggest we fix the problems with underserved communities?

In the context of Affirmative Action, we are getting about a 35% return on AA URMS practicing in underserved minority communities. A contract based system (where applicants are contractually obligated to practice in underserved communities) would increase our ROI closer to 100%. Allowing this contract to be available to applicants of all races would increase the quality of physicians who practice in underserved communities.
 
In the context of Affirmative Action, we are getting about a 35% return on AA URMS serving in underserved minority communities. A contract based system (where applicants are contractually obligated to serve in underserved communities) would increase our ROI to closer to 100%. Allowing this contract to be open to applicants of all races would increase the quality of physicians who practice in underserved communities.

Sounds like a good plan except for one thing. The people that will sign those contracts will not be as competitive as others(i.e sign the contract to make up for some application deficiency). Hence you are back to square one. Then what do we do about the whole "patients trust physicians of their race better" findings.
 
Sounds like a good plan except for one thing. The people that will sign those contracts will not be as competitive as others(i.e sign the contract to make up for some application deficiency). Hence you are back to square one. Then what do we do about the whole "patients trust physicians of their race better" findings.

They would be more competitive. With AA, we only get to choose among URMs. With a contract based system, we get to choose among all applicants who want to practice in underserved communities.

There will also be more doctors for underserved communities. For example, the around 1000 slots reserved for AA URMs yield only around 300 doctors for underserved communities. Under a contract based system, underserved communities will get closer to 1000 doctors. No matter how much you argue that a black doctor is better for a black patient, I think you would agree that a non-black doctor is better than no doctor at all.
 
They would be more competitive. With AA, we only get to choose among URMs. With a contract based system, we get to choose among all applicants who want to practice in underserved communities.

There will also be more doctors for underserved communities. For example, the around 1000 slots reserved for AA URMs yield only around 300 doctors for underserved communities. Under a contract based system, underserved communities will get closer to 1000 doctors. No matter how much you argue that a black doctor is better for a black patient, I think you would agree that a non-black doctor is better than no doctor at all.

where did you get this 30% stat from?
 
I was taught in a freshman anthro course in UG that race doesn't scientifically exist. There is no phenotypic trait that can be used to describe race without exception: i.e. those with darker skin are African, well what about Indians (as in the country) who are darker than many Africans? You just can't define race in a scientific way. So if race doesn't exist, it certainly can't be a determinant of intelligence, the end.

Newsflash: Anthropology is not a real science!

You're right that there is no phenotypic trait that can used to describe race without exception. That doesn't mean it doesn't scientifically exist. Chairs scientifically exist. Chairs are different from tables. But is there a single trait that makes a chair a chair? What is a stool except for a miniature round table with 3 legs?

That's why race has to be defined as a pattern of genetic markers to have any significance. We don't see many of those markers, but things like the rates of cystic fibrosis provide a clue. In population X, gene A occurs more frequently than in population Y. If these populations differ in relative rates for numerous genes, it is likely that they are from different lineages and, if the differences are significant enough, different races.
 
Newsflash: Anthropology is not a real science!

You're right that there is no phenotypic trait that can used to describe race without exception. That doesn't mean it doesn't scientifically exist. Chairs scientifically exist. Chairs are different from tables. But is there a single trait that makes a chair a chair? What is a stool except for a miniature round table with 3 legs?

That's why race has to be defined as a pattern of genetic markers to have any significance. We don't see many of those markers, but things like the rates of cystic fibrosis provide a clue. In population X, gene A occurs more frequently than in population Y. If these populations differ in relative rates for numerous genes, it is likely that they are from different lineages and, if the differences are significant enough, different races.

Lol. So the study of humanity is less of a science than the study of life is? Funny you say that about the chairs and stools since that's essentially how biological classification has occured for years and years.

That's enough of that. Of course there are these types of genetic mutations that are prevalent in certain populations, but they aren't widespread in the whole population let alone within the "race" however you want to define that. You have a high proportion of sickle cell in certain populations in Africa, however it is not widespread in many others. You have thalassemia to deal with malaria in other populations. Since thalassemia occurs in Greece, India, and many other parts of Asia are you going to call that a racial disease? The point is that it is too varied and humans have been migrating a whole lot for thousands of years along with independent mutations. It takes things like malaria, the biggest killer in history, to create any kind of significant genetic change in a population. Plague is one of those things that can do it too. However, they are populations and different populations are exposed to different infectious agents. You aren't going to say oh this person is white they must be resistant to HIV. However, if they happen to be from a certain city in England infamous for surviving the plague, they are IV drug users, along with with having multiple sex partners, you might say there's something going on.

For CF it's not entirely known why it is prevalent in certain populations.

Then again, you may claim very crude widespread differences between the commonly defined races, but even then there are more fluid variations. Perhaps it is useful for looking at bones, but I'm not sure what other merit there is for it.
 
Lol. So the study of humanity is less of a science than the study of life is? Funny you say that about the chairs and stools since that's essentially how biological classification has occured for years and years.

Next thing you'll tell me is that the study of spirituality is just as much a science as the study of humanity (which you've already claimed is as much a science as the study of life). Some aspects of anthropology may be scientific (e.g. anthropological biology), but any field involved in studying historical knowledge cannot be scientific in its entirety. You know what science is, right? Testable hypotheses? Actually being able to test them?

That's because we can't classify chairs and tables (stools are chairs) according to genetics, the way we can with humans.

Then again, you may claim very crude widespread differences between the commonly defined races, but even then there are more fluid variations. Perhaps it is useful for looking at bones, but I'm not sure what other merit there is for it.

I don't really understand why people make it seem like a race has to mean there are clear-cut differences that always occur. Look, I'm a young male driver and while I have never been in an accident.. I literally get my ass pummelled when it comes to car insurance rates. That's because young male drivers in general are not safe drivers. If you knew nothing else about me and you assumed I drove more dangerously than most, that's a fair assumption. If it wasn't, insurance companies wouldn't make it.

Race should never be used to generalize but it can be used to stereotype - it is never accurate to say "because he is X, therefore he is Y". It is however, perfectly accurate to say "he is X, there is a higher-than-normal probability he is Y" and if the probability is >50% "without further information, it is safer to conclude that he is Y than if he is not".
 
Just wanted to post these questions on racial and ethic descriptions that are used in Affirmative Action. I just wanted to know people's opinions on the following questions, because I have actually encountered these situations in college:

Q1) If a white person from South Africa (Boor, Dutch, or whatever ethnicity white people in South Africa are) moves to America (or we can extend it a little further and say she was born in America) and wants to go to medical school, classifying herself as African American, is this correct or right? How about the same thing for an Egyptian, who are generally classified as Arab (I know there are black people in Egypt as well as really light skinned people, just want to gauge people's opinions on the ethnic and racial terms used in AA programs).
Q2) What about a Chinese girl that was born and raised in Mexico till she was a teenager (Her parents moved from China to Mexico, and then moved to USA as a teenager). This girl is Mexican in every way (speaking perfect Spanish, adopts Mexican culture, and etc) except appearance, where she looks like a typical Asian girl. Furthermore, I would say that her life has been harder than most, with her parents having worked in sweatshops, as well as herself having worked since she was 10.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is it seems like, especially in our age, that racial/ethnic boundaries are becoming increasingly blurred, and that these terms varied in the eye of the beholder. In terms of trying to find a viable solution, I think that the goals and reasons for applying AA towards medical school acceptances should be defined.

1. Is the goal of AA in medical school to just have a larger number of underrepresented minorities, as defined by the Govt, become doctors?

2. Or is the goal of AA to give underrepresented minorities a chance to succeed since they often lived in areas where they have had less access to many of the resources needed to succeed(such as proper education and health care)

3. Or, is the problem that there is a shortage of doctors to treat/address the needs of underrepresented minorities, so medical schools should let more of them become doctors because they would be more likely to serve these areas?

In our current system, there are a lot of loopholes. I know lots of people that are white in everything, but last name, and still classify themselves as Hispanic for govt, college, and medical school applications, to get the benefits. The only thing Hispanic about them is that one of their great grandfathers immigrated from Mexico, yet they are still able to exploit benefits not intended for them. Furthermore, there several underrepresented minorities that have had great lifestyles and the same access to resources that only rich people get, and use AA as another tool for advance. Is that right? While, I will agree that the majority of underrepresented minorities do deserve the boost that AA gives, I also believe that there are many other people as well that also would qualify as much if not more, for the same boost, such as the poor Asian or White kid, that had to struggle for everything and was never given any benefit from govt or any other organization because his race is "overrepresented". Or, what about the Middle Eastern, who probably faces just as much discrimination as other minorities (My roommate is black, and I will acknowledge that they face the most discrimination). I, myself, am a middle eastern, and I have faced constant discrimination, especially since I am dark skin and have the "typical terrorist look".
Personally, I think that a boost program should be enacted based on economic status because it still would include most underrepresented minorities, but would also include others that deserve that boost as much.
Just my thoughts
-batman1983
 
Next thing you'll tell me is that the study of spirituality is just as much a science as the study of humanity (which you've already claimed is as much a science as the study of life). Some aspects of anthropology may be scientific (e.g. anthropological biology), but any field involved in studying historical knowledge cannot be scientific in its entirety. You know what science is, right? Testable hypotheses? Actually being able to test them?

That's because we can't classify chairs and tables (stools are chairs) according to genetics, the way we can with humans.

No I'm not going to say that spirituality is a science because it is not. Then again you could talk about the "science of spirituality" involving the functions of certain parts of the brain and the neurotransmitters involved. Of course that's a whole different story whether you can always bring the arts and sciences together. Whether you really want to study why certain musical notes sound good together while others don't or the way a painting looks and its effect on the brain. While there is a huge chunk of anthropology is not a science and doesn't claim to be, another huge chunk is a science. Cultural anthropology is not a science while parts of archaeology and physical anthropology are. The dating tools used in archaeology are science while a lot of the speculation about the past is not science. The physical anthropology methods to understand bones, the diseases, and genetics is of course science. You can call it biology if you would like, but there is some chemistry with gas chromatography and other things to test for chemicals in certain samples. If you want to argue on what is and what isn't science, then by definition macroevolution would be a borderline science since it is not testable. You can look at genetics of various species and use statistics to look at relationships, but you can't really test relationships that occured in the past and exactly how it happened.

Just wanted to post these questions on racial and ethic descriptions that are used in Affirmative Action. I just wanted to know people's opinions on the following questions, because I have actually encountered these situations in college:

Anyway, with AA it's not fair, but what you are saying is a rare occurance.
 
Is this thread not swamped yet?
 
Personally, I think that a boost program should be enacted based on economic status because it still would include most underrepresented minorities, but would also include others that deserve that boost as much.

There is a space on the AMCAS for "disadvantaged" applicants to self-identify (just as URM self-identify by filling in the the race/ethnicity blanks on the AMCAS) and to describe their childhood deprivation. Adcoms are human beings who read these applications from front to back and take into consideration all the aspects of the applicant's characteristics (including points made in the PS and languages spoken) when making decisions to interview and admit.
 
Jewish people are the most hated race in the world they have been unrepresented for the past century . and we still manage to conquer what we want out of life Some people put in more work than others and some are just plain lazy. there aren't any free bees in this life. everybody takes what they can get. so stop whining.
 
Jewish people are the most hated race in the world they have been unrepresented for the past century .

Jews are not under-represented in medicine. A few schools were established in large part because some existing schools at that time (early to mid-twentieth century) discriminated against Jews.

AMCAS does not include any blank for "religion" and as best I can tell, it does not offer "Jewish" as an ethnicity or race. (Of course, one could check "other".)
 
Jewish people are the most hated race in the world they have been unrepresented for the past century . and we still manage to conquer what we want out of life Some people put in more work than others and some are just plain lazy. there aren't any free bees in this life. everybody takes what they can get. so stop wining.

WOW. Ok, so I was raised Jewish and I totally understand our history etc, but pretty much all of that happened a very long time ago, and it took our people a long time to pull themselves up and become what we are now. Granted the the holocaust is more recent history but this was in a foreign country and most of the civilized world was revolted by it, fought against it and helped the survivors build a new life so it isn't really comarable to the recent struggles of blacks in our society who were only freed from ensalvement 150 years ago, were only given equal civil rights in our society in the 60s and are still viewed as inferior by many people in our society and there are still huge disparities in the education/healthcare that the average black person has availible to them. They have only had a few generations max to pull themselves up, the point of this is that we are trying to help them do that because we recognize how completely screwed up slavery was and how it might be hard to recover as a community from something like that. Wouldn't it have been the right thing to do if the Jewish community had been given a hand by society in the centuries following our persecution? Of course we can't change history, but we can do what is right now for the people in our society who don't have the same opportunities to make something out of themselves. The disadvantaged status and AA are what this is all about. To say that someone who was deprived of equal opportunities is just lazy if they can't compete with those of us who were is just spiteful.
 
In the context of Affirmative Action, we are getting about a 35% return on AA URMS practicing in underserved minority communities. A contract based system (where applicants are contractually obligated to practice in underserved communities) would increase our ROI closer to 100%. Allowing this contract to be available to applicants of all races would increase the quality of physicians who practice in underserved communities.

👍
 
You know, a great physician isn't necessarily someone who gets in the 99th percentile on their USMLE's, achieves AOA status and then goes on to do ophthalmology or radiation oncology. It also isn't necessarily someone who goes on to do breakthrough research and comes up with a novel vaccination for malaria or AIDS. A lot of times a great physician is someone who fills a need that is otherwise too "unglamorous" for anyone else to want to do.

There was a girl in my medical school class, an African-american female, who came from a small rural, medically under-served town in Texas. She came to medical school with the express intent of becoming a family physician and then going back to her small town in Texas and treating those people. And that's exactly what she is doing. She is serving a need that would not have otherwise been met if my school took some other applicant who scored one point higher on the MCAT and then who subsequently went on to become on anesthesiologist in Denver. She represents to me a prime example of why diversity for diversity's sake is an important consideration ESPECIALLY in a field like medicine.

well, SHE did. What if she hadnt? If she is specifically getting a "diversity" seat that would have gone to the other person with a higher MCAT, then shouldnt she be contractually obligated to serve where she says she wants to?

If diversity for the sake of it is so important, then why should we stop with a point on the MCAT - cant you make the same argument that 2,3 points etc. on the MCAT shouldnt matter when it comes to choosing someone else who is commited to primary care in underserved regions (which apparently seems to be very popular among the people I meet on my inteview trail ...)
 
well, SHE did. What if she hadnt? If she is specifically getting a "diversity" seat that would have gone to the other person with a higher MCAT, then shouldnt she be contractually obligated to serve where she says she wants to?

There are two reasons to encourage URM applicants: 1) to provide diversity in the small group setting in medical school (see abvoe for a discussion of this point) and 2)to provide minority patients with physicians with whom they can identify. There are those who do sign contracts at graduation or after completing residencyto serve in underserved areas in exchange for loan forgiveness. We do not obligate URM to agree to these contracts as a condition of their admission to medical school and for no other reason than the color of their skin. That would appear to be discriminatory.

If diversity for the sake of it is so important, then why should we stop with a point on the MCAT - cant you make the same argument that 2,3 points etc. on the MCAT shouldnt matter when it comes to choosing someone else who is commited to primary care in underserved regions (which apparently seems to be very popular among the people I meet on my inteview trail ...)

This as been discussed above as well. Those who matriculate to medical school must perform well in their classes and pass board exams in order to be licensed to practice medicine. Go down too low in terms of grades and test scores and you risk choosing someone who can't cut it. Keep in mind that half of all URM who apply to medical school are not admitted.
 
http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf

Page 151. Using the highest tercile (14% to 66%) as representative of "underserved community".

I truly love your selective excerpts from this paper. Here are some more excerpts:

"Despite small sample sizes, the findings are stable and reliable, as indication that only Black physicians chose, in disproportionally large numbers, to establish their practices in states with high proportions of Black population."

"Nearly 67% of Hispanic male physicians established their practices in the highest third of states grouped by percentage of Hispanic population, compared to 29% of non-minority male physicians..."

"In conclusion, the findings of high concentrations of African American physicians in high African American states, and of Mexican and Puerto Rican physicians in high Hispanic states, sharply contrasted with the relative absence of nonminority physicians from those states."


If non-minority physicians on average prefer not to work in areas with high numbers of minorities, why would there all of a sudden be a change with a contract? Sure you can pay them to go to these areas, but if there is no desire, patient care will be compromised, and patients will be dissatisfied. Also, where would this money come from to pay these 1,000 or so doctors who would sign this contract to work in these areas? Theories are pretty, but it probably will not work in real life. But when you become an adcomm (God help us), you can institute all the alternative programs you would like.
 
urmchartxv1.jpg
 
Why is this thread now about URMs!!

Again, ORMs are tossed aside and underrepresented on SDN forums 😉
 
Physicians who graduate at the top of their class are more likely to be more successful than those who graduate at the bottom.

I'm trying to understand what your argument is. If we eliminate AA, there will still be students who graduate towards the bottom of their class to fill these non-competitive residencies.

That's what I like about Stanford....everyone graduates with an identical academic record. All 4 years P/F baby!
 

Interesting. Do you have a chart of what the outcome was post-residency?

There is certainly a large pool of "Yes" and bendable "Undecided" non-URM applicants that we are wasting under our current AA system. Thank you for digging up the chart.
 
Perhaps what we are missing here is the point that all med school admits are qualified, regardless of whether they scored a point higher or lower on the MCAT. There gets to be a point where the difference in #s does not mean much. The reason that there is a holistic review system is that choosing based on quantifiable qualifications (i.e. GPA + MCAT) only would not result in the best crop of future docs.
 
Perhaps what we are missing here is the point that all med school admits are qualified, regardless of whether they scored a point higher or lower on the MCAT. There gets to be a point where the difference in #s does not mean much. The reason that there is a holistic review system is that choosing based on quantifiable qualifications (i.e. GPA + MCAT) only would not result in the best crop of future docs.

You're right. The academic record can be used to determine whether or not an applicant can handle medical school (stats predictive that he/she will graduate). At that point, other factors can and do come into play. Med schools are not going to admit students that they don't think will graduate, so no matriculant is unqualified. Maybe some are not AS academically qualified, but academic ability is only part of the equation.

Also, we need to remember that the goals of the medical profession in educating the next generation of physicians reflect the health care needs of society. I think a lot of the confusion comes in when we confuse sociological issues with personal issues (for example "I agree with AA as a policy but would not give up my seat for a URM"). What I'm trying to say is that a true academically based meritocracy in med school admissions may not provide the best health care system for this country.
 
What situation do you speak of? As a patient, I always wanted the doctor who graduated at the top of his class.

That's BS. Nobody wants a valedictorian jerk as their physician. If you're basing your choice of physician solely on scores and class rank, you are probably doing yourself a disservice.
 
That's BS. Nobody wants a valedictorian jerk as their physician. If you're basing your choice of physician solely on scores and class rank, you are probably doing yourself a disservice.

You're the 3rd or 4th poster that automatically equated graduating AOA with having a personality defect. Do you believe there is a significant correlation between doing extremely well in school and with being a jerk?

People base their choices of physicians, lawyers, and prospective employees all the time on scores and class rank. For example, would you rather have a oncologist that graduated from HMS or one who graduated from SGU? I dare say most people would choose the Harvard oncologist. Isn't the medical school that the doctor graduated from simply a reflection of his scores and class rank in undergrad?
 
You're the 3rd or 4th poster that automatically equated graduating AOA with having a personality defect. Do you believe there is a significant correlation between doing well in school and with being a jerk?

People base their choices of physicians, lawyers, and prospective employees all the time on scores and class rank. For example, would you rather have a oncologist that graduated from HMS or one who graduated from SGU? I dare say most people would choose the Harvard oncologist. Isn't the medical school that the doctor graduated from simply a reflection of his scores and class rank in undergrad?

Most people want to go to the oncologist who 1) is covered by their insurance plan, 2) practices close to their home (no one is driving 350 miles to see the Harvard guy if a state university grad with good "word of mouth" is 5 miles away) and 3) who is affiliated with the hospital where they'd prefer to get their care (if they have the luxury of more than one hospital in their community and more than one oncologist, for that matter.)

It is astounding how little "real world" experience - and sense- you poor kids have.
 
WOW. Ok, so I was raised Jewish and I totally understand our history etc, but pretty much all of that happened a very long time ago, and it took our people a long time to pull themselves up and become what we are now. Granted the the holocaust is more recent history but this was in a foreign country and most of the civilized world was revolted by it, fought against it and helped the survivors build a new life so it isn't really comarable to the recent struggles of blacks in our society who were only freed from ensalvement 150 years ago, were only given equal civil rights in our society in the 60s and are still viewed as inferior by many people in our society and there are still huge disparities in the education/healthcare that the average black person has availible to them. They have only had a few generations max to pull themselves up, the point of this is that we are trying to help them do that because we recognize how completely screwed up slavery was and how it might be hard to recover as a community from something like that. Wouldn't it have been the right thing to do if the Jewish community had been given a hand by society in the centuries following our persecution? Of course we can't change history, but we can do what is right now for the people in our society who don't have the same opportunities to make something out of themselves. The disadvantaged status and AA are what this is all about. To say that someone who was deprived of equal opportunities is just lazy if they can't compete with those of us who were is just spiteful.

Deprived no you misunderstood me, people who try hard they deserve it they are the ones who get in schools.IF YOUR A LAZY PERSON WHO DOESNT COMPETE YOU DONT DESERVE IT.
I GIVE IT UP TO ASIANS AND INDIANS THEY STUDY SUPER HARD AND PEOPLE ENVY THEM BECAUSE THEY GET INTO TOP SCHOOLS. ALSO IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN IS NOBODY SHOULD BE DEPRIVED OF THAT.
 
You're the 3rd or 4th poster that automatically equated graduating AOA with having a personality defect. Do you believe there is a significant correlation between doing extremely well in school and with being a jerk?

People base their choices of physicians, lawyers, and prospective employees all the time on scores and class rank. For example, would you rather have a oncologist that graduated from HMS or one who graduated from SGU? I dare say most people would choose the Harvard oncologist. Isn't the medical school that the doctor graduated from simply a reflection of his scores and class rank in undergrad?

My post did not imply that high scorers are jerks but that you would not choose a physician w/ high scores who is a jerk over one with lower scores who treats his/her patients appropriately. I never said that people do not look at the pedigree of their service providers, but that it should not be the *sole* criterion. In fact for most ppl pedigree gets buried under a whole lot of other factors, as LizzyM mentioned.
 
Jews are not under-represented in medicine. A few schools were established in large part because some existing schools at that time (early to mid-twentieth century) discriminated against Jews.

AMCAS does not include any blank for "religion" and as best I can tell, it does not offer "Jewish" as an ethnicity or race. (Of course, one could check "other".)

CERTAIN COUNTRIES DISCRIMINATE AND SAME HERE IN AMERICA PEOPLE ENVY WHAT OTHERS CANT HAVE.
 
Deprived no you misunderstood me, people who try hard they deserve it they are the ones who get in schools.IF YOUR A LAZY PERSON WHO DOESNT COMPETE YOU DONT DESERVE IT.
I GIVE IT UP TO ASIANS AND INDIANS THEY STUDY SUPER HARD AND PEOPLE ENVY THEM BECAUSE THEY GET INTO TOP SCHOOLS. ALSO IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN IS NOBODY SHOULD BE DEPRIVED OF THAT.

Students who end up in top med schools work their asses off, regardless of race and ethnicity. I don't see why you set "Asians and Indians" apart from the rest. There are plenty of Asian students at non-top schools.

And frankly, all this crap about URMs not working hard is getting tired. If they didn't work hard they wouldn't be in med school, period, because they would not be qualified.

Also, when it comes to disadvantages specific to URMs, many of them are untangible. For example, the stereotype that black students are lower-achieving makes teachers and profs less likely to provide them with as high quality mentorship, challenge them academically, encourage them to compete for special honors and academic programs, and the like. The impact of such differences in intangible factors piles up with time and level of education. I know this is not the rationale for AA in med school, but thought I'd mention it since there is such a pervasive notion that lower scores in certain ethnic/racial groups are indicative of lesser innate ability or lesser motivation. As a sidenote, the stereotype of Asians as highly talented and overachieving is also harmful. Several subsets of the Asian population (e.g. Hmong) are "under-achieving" but their needs do not get reflected in studies that use broad categorizations like "Asian".
 
Most people want to go to the oncologist who 1) is covered by their insurance plan, 2) practices close to their home (no one is driving 350 miles to see the Harvard guy if a state university grad with good "word of mouth" is 5 miles away) and 3) who is affiliated with the hospital where they'd prefer to get their care (if they have the luxury of more than one hospital in their community and more than one oncologist, for that matter.)

It is astounding how little "real world" experience - and sense- you poor kids have.

Yes, I know of many parents who would drive and fly hundreds of miles in order for their terminally ill kids to see the best doctors. Insurance be damned.

http://www.katelynsherrard.com/
 
Students who end up in top med schools work their asses off, regardless of race and ethnicity. I don't see why you set "Asians and Indians" apart from the rest. There are plenty of Asian students at non-top schools.

And frankly, all this crap about URMs not working hard is getting tired. If they didn't work hard they wouldn't be in med school, period, because they would not be qualified.

Also, when it comes to disadvantages specific to URMs, many of them are untangible. For example, the stereotype that black students are lower-achieving makes teachers and profs less likely to provide them with as high quality mentorship, challenge them academically, encourage them to compete for special honors and academic programs, and the like. The impact of such differences in intangible factors piles up with time and level of education. I know this is not the rationale for AA in med school, but thought I'd mention it since there is such a pervasive notion that lower scores in certain ethnic/racial groups are indicative of lesser innate ability or lesser motivation. As a sidenote, the stereotype of Asians as highly talented and overachieving is also harmful. Several subsets of the Asian population (e.g. Hmong) are "under-achieving" but their needs do not get reflected in studies that use broad categorizations like "Asian".


BRO IM RUSSIAN JEWISH IM JUST STATING THE FACTS. YOU WANT TO BE IGNORANT ABOUT IT THATS FINE.IM NOT STEREOTYPING ANYBODY, THIS TOPIC OF OVER REPRESENTED MONORITIES WAS AIMED AT ASIANS SO I STATED THE OBVIOUS.
I COULD CARE LESS WHO YOU ARE OR WHAT YOU ARE. A PERSON WHO CAN ACHIEVE COULD BE ANYONE.
 
THIS TOPIC OF OVER REPRESENTED MONORITIES WAS AIMED AT ASIANS SO I STATED THE OBVIOUS.

No it wasn't. Also, I'd suggest spelling lessons, grammar lessons, and a keyboard without the Caps Lock broken.
 
YOU'RE THE ONE WHO STARTED THIS TOPIC AND STARTED WHINING ABOUT HOW MINORITIES ARE OVER REPRESENTED. AND ALL YOU CAN WRITE IS HOW BAD MY GRAMMAR IS. GEE WHAT A WISDOM DOCTOR.:laugh:
 
She's an anti-indite and an anti-sinite damnit!!
 
My post did not imply that high scorers are jerks but that you would not choose a physician w/ high scores who is a jerk over one with lower scores who treats his/her patients appropriately. I never said that people do not look at the pedigree of their service providers, but that it should not be the *sole* criterion. In fact for most ppl pedigree gets buried under a whole lot of other factors, as LizzyM mentioned.

Nor would I say it is the sole criteria. I agree, among other things, patients want cost effective and convenient care.

Why does graduating at the top of the class or having the highest USMLE keep a doctor from being the best doctor for a particular situation? Should we start rejecting the 6% of AOA members who want to go into family medicine? I just don't understand the achievement hating on the second page of this thread.
 
YOU'RE THE ONE WHO STARTED THIS TOPIC AND STARTED WHINING ABOUT HOW MINORITIES ARE OVER REPRESENTED. AND ALL YOU CAN WRITE IS HOW BAD MY GRAMMAR IS. GEE WHAT A WISDOM DOCTOR.

No, I wasn't whining at all. I am a minority. I posted the numbers I found because they were thought provoking. I asked for some good feedback, fully expecting to get some worthless feedback like what you've posted. Some good posts I've seen are from DoctaJay and LizzyM as they involved other statistics along with some reason behind them. You on the other hand have posted nothing useful and on top of that are trying to justify your poor posts with emotion. If you really want to post something useful, go back to the start and read the posts from the beginning instead of just posting your thoughts at the end.
 
No, I wasn't whining at all. I am a minority. I posted the numbers I found because they were thought provoking. I asked for some good feedback, fully expecting to get some worthless feedback like what you've posted. Some good posts I've seen are from DoctaJay and LizzyM as they involved other statistics along with some reason behind them. You on the other hand have posted nothing useful and on top of that are trying to justify your poor posts with emotion. If you really want to post something useful, go back to the start and read the posts from the beginning instead of just posting your thoughts at the end.

blah blah😴
 
No, I wasn't whining at all. I am a minority. I posted the numbers I found because they were thought provoking. I asked for some good feedback, fully expecting to get some worthless feedback like what you've posted. Some good posts I've seen are from DoctaJay and LizzyM as they involved other statistics along with some reason behind them. You on the other hand have posted nothing useful and on top of that are trying to justify your poor posts with emotion. If you really want to post something useful, go back to the start and read the posts from the beginning instead of just posting your thoughts at the end.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion if you only expect positive feedback good luck being a doctor.:laugh:
 
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