Overrated Schools?

[armorshell]

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Armorshell,

I read the article the last time you posted it. Anyways, I'm not trying to equate the school to how well people do -- this is based solely on the person. I was simply making the point that Ivy League schools and some very good private and public institutions provide their students with more opportunity, which can lead to more personal success on a level that cannot be measured by standardized exams. I completely understand your point. This same article can be related to dental school. People tend to believe that going to Penn for dental school they are automatically going to get a 99 on Part 1, which is just complete ignorance.

I also wanted to entertain the response someone had about "how difficult or easy a school can make a science course?" I attended a pretty competitive undergrad but took a biochemistry course over the summer at CSULB and saw just how easy a school can make a course; however, this is one course, so I'm not sure how easy or hard the other science courses are at CSULB, but from my experience you can cram a lot into a course or very little. Also, you need to think about curves. This can make a class much harder than it would be at another institution where students are less competitive (read: not as bright).

But, in the end people, this subjected has been debated over and over again. A big name school will help you IF you do well. Don't attend a pricey, competitive school just for the name if you don't think you can hang. Think about it, not everyone attending an Ivy League school was a merit scholar and valedictorian.

See, the point you're missing is that you actually think the big schools actually provide something tangible to students that a state school can't. I hear all this talk about "increased opportunities for research" and "no curves" and "no multiple choice tests" and it sounds like you're describing the "4th tier" undergrad school that I went to. All of these "increased opportunities" you're preaching exist at the state school level, but you just don't seem to be able to see or understand that for some reason.

 

[Columbia07]

I'm NOT devaluing the state school education that millions of Americans receive every day. I'm simply making a point, which is that OFTEN, good private/public institutions CAN offer their students experiences that MIGHT allow these individuals to grow in ways that cannot be measured by standardized exams. You would be lying to yourself if you think your state school can offer as much as Harvard can offer... This does not mean that your state school is inferior when it comes to didactics, it simply means that the small "tier 4" state school cannot offer the experiences that major universities can. I don't see how hard this is for people to understand.

 

[Meganfox]

All schools will give you a degree and GPA. But some schools may better train you as thinkers.

 

[dental0903]

I want to know what opportunities I am missing going to a state school.


Can I do research? 👍
Can I take upper level science classes without multiple choice tests? 👍
Can I take some graduate classes as an undergrad? 👍
Can I be involved in community outreach? 👍
Can I network to surrounding companies that actively seek students from my school? 👍
Can I get some minor teaching expereince being a TA? 👍
Can I do a senior thesis meant to prepare me for research in grad school? 👍
Can I get a crapload of scholarships? 👍
Can I do independent study to tailor my education to what I want? 👍
Can I surround myself with an extremely diverse student body? 👍
Can I make my own opportunities? Absolutely
Can I tell people what school I go to and expect them to have heard of it? I guess not

 

[armorshell]

I'm NOT devaluing the state school education that millions of Americans receive every day. I'm simply making a point, which is that OFTEN, good private/public institutions CAN offer their students experiences that MIGHT allow these individuals to grow in ways that cannot be measured by standardized exams. You would be lying to yourself if you think your state school can offer as much as Harvard can offer... This does not mean that your state school is inferior when it comes to didactics, it simply means that the small "tier 4" state school cannot offer the experiences that major universities can. I don't see how hard this is for people to understand.

I still don't hear any examples of these mythical experiences that a big Ivy can offer me that my state school didn't.

 

[Shunwei]

I still don't hear any examples of these mythical experiences that a big Ivy can offer me that my state school didn't.

Armor,

This topic has been beaten to the death. I think some of us have already given concrete examples of what a "top tier" school's curriculum is: more intense, tougher peers, more resources, etc. Now, if those who have not been to these schools think that they are not missing out on anything, then that's fine--people can believe what they want to believe, and maybe they are right (although it seems the folks who have been on both sides of the fence seem to think differently).

In the end, you can't expect people to give you a vicarious experience on what an Ivy education is like. For one, you might intrinsically not believe in it so you are not receptive (see above). Secondly, it is something that you have to experience for yourself in order to truly understand what it is; it is just like dental school, in which you have to be there to know just how intense and demanding it is. No writing on the chalkboard is going to replace a ride by yourself. So why don't we drop this topic, and besides I am sure that you have a lot of stuff you need to do at Pacific as a second year 🙂

 

[swtcatastrophe]

I've had a couple professors present this type of quote in many of my classes:

"We are shut up in schools and college recitation rooms for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bellyfull of words and do not know a thing. The things taught in schools and colleges are not an education, but the means of education."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Their point was that it really doesn't matter what you learn in college (the facts, numbers, dates, etc.) because you'll probably forget it all right after taking the final. What is important is learning how to learn - coming to the realization that there is a wealth of information out there and, if you want, you have the ability to learn it. College, basically, is just a way to practice all those skills that help us learn. I think this type of education can be attained at any place of learning - Ivy or not - as long as you put a little effort into the experience.

Here's another quote that I like:

"Some people get an eduction without going to college; the rest get it after they get out."

-Mark Twain

i concur that learning how to learn, be more analytical, and cultivate problem solving skills are the most important things our education will provide to us. i remember studying for my very first physics exam at MIT. i studied just how i did in high school: read over the book and do a few practice problems. i had no idea that practice exams even existed, that more than 5 hours of studying could be needed, and that understanding the concepts was most important. needless to say, i did miserable on that exam. it's a lesson i'll never forget and will carry with me.

i believe that this type of struggle in undergrad will help for dental school. i have definitely talked to some people who said that they went through the tough transition i experienced from high school to college when they went from college to D-school. while some people may be able to excel immediately, even in the face of this type of challenge, i'm grateful that i experienced it earlier rather than later.

 

[NewMexDent]

It don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that those of you who have experienced an "ivy-type" school seem to think that that your educational experience has been superior to the "common-man's" experience.

Well, it hasn't.

I'm sure you may feel that you need to justify your choice of school, but in the end all millions of students not attending "Ivy" universities are having comparable experiences and, perhaps, even enjoying it as much as you are.

Each student is probably going to support the school they identify as "their school", regardless of "Ivy" status or state status. This thread could easily be changed to a discussion of differences between two schools in the same state (for example: Arizona vs. Arizona State). Those who have attended Arizona will probably claim their school is superior while those who have attended ASU will do likewise for their own school. In like manner: those who attend "Ivy" schools will support their own schools, while those who attend other universities will likely support their school of choice.

In the end, it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you make the most of it.

 

[Cymbidium]

I want to know what opportunities I am missing going to a state school.


Can I do research? 👍
Can I take upper level science classes without multiple choice tests? 👍
Can I take some graduate classes as an undergrad? 👍
Can I be involved in community outreach? 👍
Can I network to surrounding companies that actively seek students from my school? 👍
Can I get some minor teaching expereince being a TA? 👍
Can I do a senior thesis meant to prepare me for research in grad school? 👍
Can I get a crapload of scholarships? 👍
Can I do independent study to tailor my education to what I want? 👍
Can I surround myself with an extremely diverse student body? 👍
Can I make my own opportunities? Absolutely
Can I tell people what school I go to and expect them to have heard of it? I guess not

This was another thing that shocked me about my public university. Your classes/labs aren't always taught by professors?

My experiences at my state school were completely different from my 4 years at private college. I'm not saying it was better or worse, just completely different. Prior to going to Buffalo for 2 yrs. of classes I hadn't been in a college classroom with more that 25 students in the class.

 

[dental0903]

This was another thing that shocked me about my public university. Your classes/labs aren't always taught by professors?

Actually what I was refering to was a really cool program in the chemistry department where juniors and seniors who did well in gen chem, org chem, and biochem can instruct an hour long course once a week to about 10 gen chem students. During that time, the students go over problems together and discuss concepts. That is all to supplement the primary lecture time and have more one-on-one contact.

Yeah, my lectures are ALWAYS taught by professors and my labs are ALWAYS taught by grad students. I don't see a problem with this. Many times, grad students have an easier time undertsanding why students don't understand concepts because they aren't as far removed from the situation.

 

[bigstix808]

In the end, it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you make the most of it.[/quote]

👍 i like it

 

[dental0903]

In the end, it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you make the most of it.[/quote]

👍 i like it

Me too!! I also like your videos. You are quite talented!!😀

 

[IdiotsAnnoyMe]

I don't expect to see much difference when looking at dentistry alone. You'll see it more in the big three fields: medicine, law, and business.

Harvard MSTP only accepts from top 5 schools, and close to no one has gotten in from outside the top 5 in the last several years. UCSF medical also appears to strongly prefer big shot schools like Duke and Stanford. In fact, the competition's so cut-throat that Harvard grads with a 36MCAT, 3.8 gpa, and excellent extracurriculars have difficulty getting in out-of-state.

Investment recruiters routinely flood the top 10 schools. Many don't bother with schools below the top 20, while they do give them options to apply. They just don't actively recruit there.

The country's arguably most coveted (and undisputed highest payer, by about 40% higher than the next competitor) law firm Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, LLP want recruits who went to a top 5 law school AND a top 5 undergraduate school. The standard's not too different with top firms like Sullivan, Finnegan, or Cravath.

Different people/fields what different things. Certain opportunities can open up. The difference may not be readily apparent from looking at dentistry alone, but the difference does exist. Explore outside dentistry a bit and you'll be amazed at what you'd find.

 

[dental0903]

I don't expect to see much difference when looking at dentistry alone. You'll see it more in the big three fields: medicine, law, and business.

Harvard MSTP only accepts from top 5 schools, and close to no one has gotten in from outside the top 5 in the last several years. UCSF medical also appears to strongly prefer big shot schools like Duke and Stanford. In fact, the competition's so cut-throat that Harvard grads with a 36MCAT, 3.8 gpa, and excellent extracurriculars have difficulty getting in out-of-state.

Investment recruiters routinely flood the top 10 schools. Many don't bother with schools below the top 20, while they do give them options to apply. They just don't actively recruit there.

The country's arguably most coveted (and undisputed highest payer, by about 40% higher than the next competitor) law firm Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, LLP want recruits who went to a top 5 law school AND a top 5 undergraduate school. The standard's not too different with top firms like Sullivan, Finnegan, or Cravath.

Different people/fields what different things. Certain opportunities can open up. The difference may not be readily apparent from looking at dentistry alone, but the difference does exist. Explore outside dentistry a bit and you'll be amazed at what you'd find.

I think you are absolutely correct with law and business. Still not as much with medicine, but more so than with dentistry.

 

[makushin]

The main advantage of prestigious universities is the PEOPLE there. The extraodinary students and faculty that students get to interact with on a daily basis. I realized this during the very few such experiences I've had at my state school. Learning from the best in the world is inspiring.

Anybody can learn pre-dental material from studying out of a book. If you just want to get into dental school take your classes at whatever 4year school you please, anyone telling you otherwise is only kidding themselves. I wish I went to an Ivy because of the people, not because it would help me get into a grad program. The apathy at my state school is sometimes intolerable.

 

[NewMexDent]

The main advantage of prestigious universities is the PEOPLE there. The extraodinary students and faculty that students get to interact with on a daily basis. I realized this during the very few such experiences I've had at my state school. Learning from the best in the world is inspiring.

Anybody can learn pre-dental material from studying out of a book. If you just want to get into dental school take your classes at whatever 4year school you please, anyone telling you otherwise is only kidding themselves. I wish I went to an Ivy because of the people, not because it would help me get into a grad program. The apathy at my state school is sometimes intolerable.

Yeah, people at "Ivy" schools must be better people.

 

[makushin]

Yeah, people at "Ivy" schools must be better people.

That's not what I said.

 

[armorshell]

Armor,

This topic has been beaten to the death. I think some of us have already given concrete examples of what a "top tier" school's curriculum is: more intense, tougher peers, more resources, etc. Now, if those who have not been to these schools think that they are not missing out on anything, then that's fine--people can believe what they want to believe, and maybe they are right (although it seems the folks who have been on both sides of the fence seem to think differently).

In the end, you can't expect people to give you a vicarious experience on what an Ivy education is like. For one, you might intrinsically not believe in it so you are not receptive (see above). Secondly, it is something that you have to experience for yourself in order to truly understand what it is; it is just like dental school, in which you have to be there to know just how intense and demanding it is. No writing on the chalkboard is going to replace a ride by yourself. So why don't we drop this topic, and besides I am sure that you have a lot of stuff you need to do at Pacific as a second year 🙂

I wasn't asking for a vicarious experience, I was just being snarky. 😛

I mentioned above that almost all of the criteria being listed as benefits at Ivy or top schools aren't their sole propriety, but I do understand your point. I've felt the sting many a time defending Pacific's curriculum from naysayers who just don't seem to understand, and from what I've heard from the 3rd years applying to OS I'll almost certainly have to do it again in the future.

I will say this though: taking a summer class isn't a fair picture of what a public school is like, simply because summer classes are almost always taught by adjunct faculty and are often easier and more condensed then the normal session versions.

 

[997GT3]

That's not what I said.

Armor,

This topic has been beaten to the death. I think some of us have already given concrete examples of what a "top tier" school's curriculum is: more intense, tougher peers, more resources, etc. Now, if those who have not been to these schools think that they are not missing out on anything, then that's fine--people can believe what they want to believe, and maybe they are right (although it seems the folks who have been on both sides of the fence seem to think differently).

In the end, you can't expect people to give you a vicarious experience on what an Ivy education is like. For one, you might intrinsically not believe in it so you are not receptive (see above). Secondly, it is something that you have to experience for yourself in order to truly understand what it is; it is just like dental school, in which you have to be there to know just how intense and demanding it is. No writing on the chalkboard is going to replace a ride by yourself. So why don't we drop this topic, and besides I am sure that you have a lot of stuff you need to do at Pacific as a second year 🙂

Agreed. But these threads will always be around. Just let them believe what they want.