P/F v. Graded Schools

[hl4jn]

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Currently, I'm interested in just entering general dentistry, but I'm not completely closed off to the idea of specializing as I go through dental school and get more exposure to different specialties.

How hard is it to get into a specialty if you go to the DS that is based on a P/F system? I want to go to DS that has a grading system so that in case I do want to specialize, I will have grades instead of this ambiguous P/F for people to judge me on. At the same time, if I choose to stick with general dentistry, I don't want to have gone through all that stress with A, B, & Cs.

Thoughts?

 

[mid]

Harvard, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA and UConn students all have a lot of difficulty matching into specialty programs.












































...not.

 

[xbite]

Harvard, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA and UConn students all have a lot of difficulty matching into specialty programs.

...not.

I thought it was a fair question. Are all of those schools strictly pass/fail, or are any of them pass/fail/honors? With the latter set up, I know they want to see a lot of honors, just to stay consistent with expecting a higher GPA from non-p/f schools. Also, until now, applicants have had board scores and class ranks to also aid in their assessment.

 

[UCSFx2017]

UCSF has 20% rate with at least five in OMFS, the equivalent of UPenn.

Use the search function but Harvard, UConn, and UCSF are strictly P/F for at least first two years.

You can probably add Stony Brook in there as well but it's very out-of-state unfriendly.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Your concern about boards having P/F is unnecessary since both highly competitive specialties (OMFS/Ortho) have their own numerical exam (CBSE/GRE), making this situation the same as it were before boards went P/F.

 

[Toothshucker]

Columbia is P/F/H. No problem specializing, not even with part 1 P/F. The schools already met with program directors to discuss the implications on what will change in regards to specializing. We were told not to worry about it. OMS/Ortho have additional exams.

 

[xbite]

UCSF has 20% rate with at least five in OMFS, the equivalent of UPenn.

Do you mean 20% of the class goes into OMFS at Penn and UCSF, or do you mean they both have a 20% match rate? This year at Penn, 17 applied to OMFS and 15 got in.

 

[xbite]

Your concern about boards having P/F is unnecessary since both highly competitive specialties (OMFS/Ortho) have their own numerical exam (CBSE/GRE), making this situation the same as it were before boards went P/F.

The GRE is more of a formality for the Master's portion of an ortho program, than it is an assessment tool for acceptance. The oral surgery exam is a new thing. Prior to that, it was very much GPA, class ranking, and board scores that they looked at.

 

[dentalWorks]

Currently, I'm interested in just entering general dentistry, but I'm not completely closed off to the idea of specializing as I go through dental school and get more exposure to different specialties.

How hard is it to get into a specialty if you go to the DS that is based on a P/F system? I want to go to DS that has a grading system so that in case I do want to specialize, I will have grades instead of this ambiguous P/F for people to judge me on. At the same time, if I choose to stick with general dentistry, I don't want to have gone through all that stress with A, B, & Cs.

Thoughts?

its difficult to compare p/f vs graded programs since 99.9% of people only have experience with only 1.

I can tell you right now, whether you go p/f or graded.... the amount of work you put in will be alot more than the average dental student whom wants to just do general dentistry.

If you decide to do general dentistry and u go to a graded school... just aim for C-'s (which isn't hard to achieve)... basically, thats night-before studying.

 

[UCSFx2017]

The GRE is more of a formality for the Master's portion of an ortho program, than it is an assessment tool for acceptance. The oral surgery exam is a new thing. Prior to that, it was very much GPA, class ranking, and board scores that they looked at.

Yeah but the NBME is used the same way (standardized exam) as the boards were used.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Do you mean 20% of the class goes into OMFS at Penn and UCSF, or do you mean they both have a 20% match rate? This year at Penn, 17 applied to OMFS and 15 got in.

20% match.

http://www.dental.upenn.edu/life_at_penn_dental_diversity/profiles/post-graduation_plans

Penn generally sends 6-7 to OMFS with around 30% match for all dental specialties. You're confusing Penn's 15 matching with orthodontics. UCSF had 13 ortho match rate at some point as well. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=874846

its difficult to compare p/f vs graded programs since 99.9% of people only have experience with only 1.

I can tell you right now, whether you go p/f or graded.... the amount of work you put in will be alot more than the average dental student whom wants to just do general dentistry.

If you decide to do general dentistry and u go to a graded school... just aim for C-'s (which isn't hard to achieve)... basically, thats night-before studying.

👍👍 Even if you go to P/F school, your LORs are dependent on your test performance. If you go to a P/F school, you and your professors still get to see a numerical score on your exam. At UCSF, your transcript only shows P/F for the first two years and Letter of Commendation/P/F for the last two years.

 

[poki]

Currently, I'm interested in just entering general dentistry, but I'm not completely closed off to the idea of specializing as I go through dental school and get more exposure to different specialties.

How hard is it to get into a specialty if you go to the DS that is based on a P/F system? I want to go to DS that has a grading system so that in case I do want to specialize, I will have grades instead of this ambiguous P/F for people to judge me on. At the same time, if I choose to stick with general dentistry, I don't want to have gone through all that stress with A, B, & Cs.

Thoughts?

Actually the opposite is true, it is easier to get into specialties with P/F than graded. At a ranked/graded school you need to maintain both your class rank AND score highly on the standardized tests for the competitive specialties (GRE for ortho/NBME for OMFS). At a P/F school you can spend most of your time getting a high score for those exams or doing extracurriculars/research while shooting for a 70-75% in your classes. These exams are the only objective measurement of differentiating between candidates from different schools so doing well on them is the best way into a specialty program. Not to mention that some residency programs actively seek out applicants from these P/F schools based on the name and reputation of the schools (Harvard, Columbia, UCLA ,etc). Trust me going to a P/F school will make your life so much easier. I don't think i could stay sane if I had to worry about getting an A in every single stupid class in dental school.

 

[503224]

Even if you go to P/F school, your LORs are dependent on your test performance. If you go to a P/F school, you and your professors still get to see a numerical score on your exam. At UCSF, your transcript only shows P/F for the first two years and Letter of Commendation/P/F for the last two years.

I was actually going to ask about this (then I saw that you posted about it already), since I know that this is the way they do it at some P/F medical schools too. It just comes out in the letters of rec, because the professors can still see the numerical scores.

Overall point: there is nowhere to hide!

Actually the opposite is true, it is easier to get into specialties with P/F than graded. At a ranked/graded school you need to maintain both your class rank AND score highly on the standardized tests for the competitive specialties (GRE for ortho/NBME for OMFS). At a P/F school you can spend most of your time getting a high score for those exams or doing extracurriculars/research while shooting for a 70-75% in your classes. These exams are the only objective measurement of differentiating between candidates from different schools so doing well on them is the best way into a specialty program. Not to mention that some residency programs actively seek out applicants from these P/F schools based on the name and reputation of the schools (Harvard, Columbia, UCLA ,etc). Trust me going to a P/F school will make your life so much easier. I don't think i could stay sane if I had to worry about getting an A in every single stupid class in dental school.

I actually don't think this is entirely true, because of what I bolded that UCSF posted. Your professors who write your LOR's are still going to see your numerical scores and will base your LOR's on those numerical scores. Therefore, in order to get good LOR's, you are still going to want to do well.

If what UCSF posted is correct, I don't think that any dental school is truly P/F.

 

[znny19]

Actually the opposite is true, it is easier to get into specialties with P/F than graded. At a ranked/graded school you need to maintain both your class rank AND score highly on the standardized tests for the competitive specialties (GRE for ortho/NBME for OMFS). At a P/F school you can spend most of your time getting a high score for those exams or doing extracurriculars/research while shooting for a 70-75% in your classes. These exams are the only objective measurement of differentiating between candidates from different schools so doing well on them is the best way into a specialty program. Not to mention that some residency programs actively seek out applicants from these P/F schools based on the name and reputation of the schools (Harvard, Columbia, UCLA ,etc). Trust me going to a P/F school will make your life so much easier. I don't think i could stay sane if I had to worry about getting an A in every single stupid class in dental school.

This is not true. Although your transcript does say "P/F" your numerical grades are still recorded. These grades are then used to calculate your class rank which will be incorporated into one of your LoR.

The P/F school i interviewed a (where you take BMS with med students) also told us that you are graded against the med students (who don't have any dental classes to worry about!) and this average determines whether you pass or not. So a "pass" is not always a a 65.

 

[poki]

I was actually going to ask about this (then I saw that you posted about it already), since I know that this is the way they do it at some P/F medical schools too. It just comes out in the letters of rec, because the professors can still see the numerical scores.

Overall point: there is nowhere to hide!



I actually don't think this is entirely true, because of what I bolded that UCSF posted. Your professors who write your LOR's are still going to see your numerical scores and will base your LOR's on those numerical scores. Therefore, in order to get good LOR's, you are still going to want to do well.

If what UCSF posted is correct, I don't think that any dental school is truly P/F.

This is true to an extent. Think about it this way, if you are in a P/F/H system getting honors will only help you get into specialties in terms of better LOR and you can also write how many honors you have on your CV. However, not getting honors will not hurt you or prevent you from getting into specialties. You can control to an extent what you want your letter writers to focus on in your letters, if you have extracurriculars or research you want them to write about, most letter writers will focus on that instead. That's the main advantage of P/F schools, you have the option of where to focus your attention on, be it honors, research or extracurriculars or all 3, you are not obligated to maintain a class rank or have a 4.0 GPA to specialize. Many ppl from P/F schools match into competitive specialties like OMFS, Pedo and Ortho every year with few EPRs and high boards scores/research/extracurriculars.

 

[xbite]

20% match.

http://www.dental.upenn.edu/life_at_penn_dental_diversity/profiles/post-graduation_plans

Penn generally sends 6-7 to OMFS with around 30% match for all dental specialties. You're confusing Penn's 15 matching with orthodontics. UCSF had 13 ortho match rate at some point as well. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=874846

That link was kind of misleading, since administration didn't report the others who post-matched or went to non-match programs. All 17 who applied went into ortho last year. "Generally" is a very broad term. How many they send depends on how many want to apply that year. I don't know what you were wanting show with those stats, but here are the updated numbers for this year: 15/17 got into OMFS, 15/16 (and I think another post-matched) got into ortho, 5/5 endo. I don't know the rest, but I know of at least 3 for perio, at least 1 prosth, at least 1 for anesthesia, at least 5 for peds. Not sure if you are counting GPRs/AEGDs for further education, but since match rates for those are equally as competitive, I think it would be fair to count those, too. So that's another 35ish+ people.

.

 

[UCSFx2017]

That link was kind of misleading, since administration didn't report the others who post-matched or went to non-match programs.

How is it misleading when I used this as a fair comparison of two schools that report using the same parameters? That is that both schools do not report post-match or non-match results. I doubt UCSF's report parameters would differ from Penn's.

All 17 who applied went into ortho last year. "Generally" is a very broad term.

Generally is not a broad term. Generally is a perfectly fine way to describe a trend of randomized samples of students from each school. '05 matched 6, '06 matched 6, '07 matched 2, '08 matched 6, '09 matched 6, and 12' matched 7. With the exception of '07 outlier, five graduating years (n=5) had a match rate of 6.2 into OMFS. I am perfectly content to assume that the match rate for OMFS at Penn is generally around 6.

How many they send depends on how many want to apply that year.

The same is true for every other school and since I'm comparing UCSF with Penn, UCSF is no exception. Again, whether you match into a specialty or not is largely dependent on the student and not on the school. Making this comparison only shows that UCSF is not limited in match rates due to its being P/F.

I don't know what you were wanting show with those stats, but here are the updated numbers for this year: 15/17 got into OMFS, 15/16 (and I think another post-matched) got into ortho, 5/5 endo. I don't know the rest, but I know of at least 3 for perio, at least 1 prosth, at least 1 for anesthesia, at least 5 for peds. Not sure if you are counting GPRs/AEGDs for further education, but since match rates for those are equally as competitive, I think it would be fair to count those, too. So that's another 35ish+ people.

When people use the word specializing on this forum, they are only considering OMFS, Ortho, Peds, Perio, Endo, and Pros so 30% specializing at Penn has been fairly consistent. Everything on SDN should be used as a grain of salt especially when it is from word-of-mouth and not proven by published literature, including your statistics. I have provided both schools' published reports. I really don't need this year's results to provide a past trend for future extrapolation or to make a comparison with other schools.

 

[hl4jn]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. To kind of summarize/clear things up neatly, is it safe to assume that even if I do attend a P/F school, since my numerical grades will be recorded and I'll have the boards scores as well, it shouldn't hinder me if I were to apply for a specialty?

 

[ushaseos]

It really won't matter unless you fail the classes. Matching into specialties is always a bit of a crap shoot do well and be able to show your passion for that particular specialty (and network with the right people in the field). NBME and GRE type things may surface later for other specialties, but I think people are quickly realizing scores and grades aren't necessarily the best metric of measuring one's affinity for a certain specialty.

I personally think that the most important fact in matching is the student itself i.e. you. It's been said a million times but remember it is only you who can facilitate the match and only you who can completely screw it up. Put forth your best effort and hope for the best!

 

[UCSFx2017]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. To kind of summarize/clear things up neatly, is it safe to assume that even if I do attend a P/F school, since my numerical grades will be recorded and I'll have the boards scores as well, it shouldn't hinder me if I were to apply for a specialty?

I talked to an Penn Dental/Harvard MD-OMFS on Saturday. I specifically asked him if going to a P/F school would limit me in matching into OMFS. He said no.

I have no idea how Perio, Endo, Prosth, or Peds is going to work out in terms of standardized numerical exams but from one of my previous posts, I listed a link to a thread that showed the match rates for UCSF. There were plenty of UCSF grads going onto Ortho/Peds. Perio/Endo/Prosth isn't particular popular at any school.

 

[hl4jn]

Thanks everyone =D My school list just expanded haha