MD & DO PA/NP RESIDENCY at UNC????

[slowthai]

I know you are kidding but people should take this seriously. They are not in the same league so no colleague, coworker maybe. These little people know how to use 'political terms' and 'politics spek' very well.
Collaboration not supervision. Collaboration implies equality; Supervision implies a superior-subordinate relationship. It is not a collaboration if one's license is on the line for another's actions.
Correct these and use them meaningfully in your daily interactions.

Exactly, that's the problem. It's insane that these MIDLEVELS, not APPs, MIDLEVELS are taking offense at the fact that there has to be a leader, and that leader is the physician. This is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, lol. The physician knows best, solely because of the fact that he or she trained for this very responsibility.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[boolin_1]

Can we, as medical students, amass some anecdotal data about residents who felt as if their learning opportunities were compromised in some way by a corresponding 'advanced practitioner' track in the same system?

If I had a list of residencies that showed that my education was on the chopping block, I would not rank or interview at any of these places.

All it would take would be one thread that collected anecdotes where residents felt like they were shafted, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Alkaidius]

Can we, as medical students, amass some anecdotal data about residents who felt as if their learning opportunities were compromised in some way by a corresponding 'advanced practitioner' track in the same system?

If I had a list of residencies that showed that my education was on the chopping block, I would not rank or interview at any of these places.

All it would take would be one thread that collected anecdotes where residents felt like they were shafted, and that's good enough for me.

I’ll bet a lot don’t even know they’re getting shafted. Even if they only need to share 1 in every 10 LPs, that’s still 10% of the experience that should’ve been theirs getting distributed elsewhere. They may not feel like they’re losing out on much, but it adds up. You want to get 100% out of your residency. You earned it.

 

[libertyyne]

Can we, as medical students, amass some anecdotal data about residents who felt as if their learning opportunities were compromised in some way by a corresponding 'advanced practitioner' track in the same system?

If I had a list of residencies that showed that my education was on the chopping block, I would not rank or interview at any of these places.

All it would take would be one thread that collected anecdotes where residents felt like they were shafted, and that's good enough for me.

The market does not work like that. We have almost zero power. There are still going to be many people in line ranking these programs because they cant get in anywhere else. It is up to our elders to see that our profession remains protected. It seems like they have lost the plot, especially when they can make a little more money right now, or do a little less scut. They are like the programmers happily training outsourced people, and then wondering why the profession has gone to hell. Stop training replacements, stop starting "residencies" stop giving preference to those that are not physicians in training, and stop calling them apps. Stop calling each other providers.

 

[boolin_1]

The market does not work like that. We have almost zero power. There are still going to be many people in line ranking these programs because they cant get in anywhere else. It is up to our elders to see that our profession remains protected. It seems like they have lost the plot, especially when they can make a little more money right now, or do a little less scut. They are like the programmers happily training outsourced people, and then wondering why the profession has gone to hell. Stop training replacements, stop starting "residencies" stop giving preference to those that are not physicians in training, and stop calling them apps. Stop calling each other providers.

but I they're getting uncompetitive applicants, wouldn't it change the perception of the competitive-ness of the program?

also this is the only why I , as an MS3, feel like I can stick it the man at this juncture

 

[slowthai]

I see your point. I don't know. I am Anesthesia so I am very skeptical of midlevels, sure you don't see that in Cardiology or the surgical specialties now but I would still try to nib it in the buds. If you go a few years back on the EM forum, the argument 'Midlevels will never replace EM physicians because of the acuity and high liability,' look where we are now. It's multifactorial. As the presence of Private Equity increases in the medicine, it's harder and harder for the physicians to reign control of the situation, and it's one giant factor for EM.

All it takes is:
1) for the private equity to start buying up Surgical Practices
2) more and more surgeons become employees to the system
3) a few zealous academic Cardiologists to train/open programs to teach midlevels how to cath, Surgeons to teach 'Surgical Midlevels' to operate with onsite supervision

You are saying the the proceduralists are safe now, I am saying they need to wake up and be on the lookout. Prevention >>> Damage control

I, for one, am scared of private equity. It's like this all-consuming monster that chews practices up and spits them out. They just run them into the ground for a quick buck.

 

[UnoMas]

I, for one, am scared of private equity. It's like this all-consuming monster that chews practices up and spits them out. They just run them into the ground for a quick buck.

The funny joke is I went into medicine to avoid climbing the corporate ladder thinking I can just join a private practice, cure people and earn my paycheck. At this rate....

This is a real life picture of me in the resident workroom finishing up my progress notes

 

[libertyyne]

but I they're getting uncompetitive applicants, wouldn't it change the perception of the competitive-ness of the program?

also this is the only why I , as an MS3, feel like I can stick it the man at this juncture

some top applicants are going to hold their nose and still match there. The way to stick it to these people is to smile, nod your head and get into a position of power. Or to stop training midlevels when you get into a position of power and get more of your class inline with not training them. Remember when you are in a position of power how demoralizing to you giving preference to NP training felt like.

 

[slowthai]

but I they're getting uncompetitive applicants, wouldn't it change the perception of the competitive-ness of the program?

also this is the only why I , as an MS3, feel like I can stick it the man at this juncture

There are (or will be) too many programs with crap like this, and people can't afford a failed match, so they'll take the inferior training if it means matching. It's like a lot of things in medicine. You take what you can get. It's either that, or you're screwed. We have little room to maneuver or any protection for the entirety of our training.

 

[deleted407021]

How about the ACGME amend accreditation standards to limit the degree to which non-physicians can engage in the training environment?

 

[UnoMas]

How about the ACGME amend accreditation standards to limit the degree to which non-physicians can engage in the training environment?

They do, it's part of their annual survey. However, residents do get scared by their programs and lie. It all boils down to residents being the powerless peons exploited by the system.

1) You cant do anything without residency
2) If you get kicked out of residency, your degree is worthless.
3) Residency is hard enough, you don't want to be hazed by your program
4) If you badmouth and report your program and it gets closed down, read #1

If there are options for the medical school graduates without residency training, you would see more and more reports of these bs residency programs

Before the annual ACGME survey, residents get a nice reminder email by their PD/APD

 

[Alkaidius]

They do, it's part of their annual survey. However, residents do get scared by their programs and lie. It all boils down to residents being the powerless peons exploited by the system.

1) You cant do anything without residency
2) If you get kicked out of residency, your degree is worthless.
3) Residency is hard enough, you don't want to be hazed by your program
4) If you badmouth and report your program and it gets closed down, read #1

If there are options for the medical school graduates without residency training, you would see more and more reports of these bs residency programs

Before the annual ACGME survey, residents get a nice reminder email by their PD/APD

Is the survey not anonymous...?

 

[deleted407021]

Resident's union.

 

[UnoMas]

Is the survey not anonymous...?

It is anonymous but I don't think it will be too hard to play detective and pinpoint the troublemaker in whole cohort 60 PGY1-PGY4, especially if the perp was pissed enough to make some noises prior.

This is even worse for programs with like 10 residents

 

[libertyyne]

Is the survey not anonymous...?

it doesnt matter if it is anonymous if the end outcome is your program being closed. Absolutely devastating and life altering to be part of a program that is closed. you have to pick up your life and go to another program if you are lucky, if unlucky you are left without training. The ACGME really should mandate resident placement when they close a program.

 

[Alkaidius]

it doesnt matter if it is anonymous if the end outcome is your program being closed. Absolutely devastating and life altering to be part of a program that is closed. you have to pick up your life and go to another program if you are lucky, if unlucky you are left without training. The ACGME really should mandate resident placement when they close a program.

I guess I figured they’d be put on a probationary status first. The fix to which is easy: give the PA residency the boot or lose accreditation.

 

[libertyyne]

I guess I figured they’d be put on a probationary status first. The fix to which is easy: give the PA residency the boot or lose accreditation.

I just witnessed a program close. No probation, no nothing. No garuntee for the residents. Absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking. The only lesson I took away from it was to keep your mouth shut about even simple things like duty hour violations/ keep a low profile and the acgme just cares about its reputation and not the wellbeing of residents or their careers

 

[UnoMas]

I guess I figured they’d be put on a probationary status first. The fix to which is easy: give the PA residency the boot or lose accreditation.

Oh boy I would imagine there will be a lot of spanking if a program got put on probationary status.

 

[libertyyne]

Oh boy I would imagine there will be a lot of spanking if a program got put on probationary status.

 

[UnoMas]

View attachment 296533

Funny because this meme is posted in our resident lounge. My bet is it's the General Surgery residents

 

[KeikoTanaka]

As an MS-II, I really hope there is massive residency reform in the coming years. I think it's about time - There has been enough talk / walk-outs / demonstrations / problems lately that it's time for a change.
- First and foremost, every student who completes and PASSES their MD/DO school deserves a residency spot.
- The government must ALWAYS have enough spots for the amount of students graduating. And if there is not any way to increase residency spots for a certain year, then no schools should be allowed to be opened. Period.
- All residency salaries should be forced to reflect the average cost of living for the area the hospital is in (Yes someone with a residency in San Francisco is going to need more money for their apartment than someone in Rochester, NY)
- The resident has the right to do ALL procedures/cases/whatever that they want to, obviously there is a minimum to be met, but as long as you're the resident, you should always have the right to do whatever you feel comfortable (or uncomfortable) with to achieve mastery.

No more of this useless peon bull**** being jerked around by admin. Residency programs are literally being funded by law by the government and if a hospital accepts that responsibility (which some have to for the sake of our country's healthcare and safety) - Then any of the bylaws set in place supersedes everything - even the whim of the attendings who want their precious midlevels to do more procedures.

I'm so sick of residents/physicians being this punching bag that is told to always just "deal with it" just because we "make good money" - The only reason we deserve to make good money is because of the sacrifice we put in and because when you hire a physician, no matter what, you are getting what you are paying for - a healthcare professional who is going to be knowledgeable and stellar at what they do, save the hospital and patient money (By not over-ordering tests), save lives, minimize mistakes, be a good team player, and always perform at their maximum - like a well-oiled machine. But the only way we can make that promise though, is if the training for a physician is streamlined, high quality, and 100% enforced to give the best education possible. WE NEED RESIDENCY REFORM NOW.

 

[libertyyne]

As an MS-II, I really hope there is massive residency reform in the coming years. I think it's about time - There has been enough talk / walk-outs / demonstrations / problems lately that it's time for a change.
- First and foremost, every student who completes and PASSES their MD/DO school deserves a residency spot.
- The government must ALWAYS have enough spots for the amount of students graduating. And if there is not any way to increase residency spots for a certain year, then no schools should be allowed to be opened. Period.
- All residency salaries should be forced to reflect the average cost of living for the area the hospital is in (Yes someone with a residency in San Francisco is going to need more money for their apartment than someone in Rochester, NY)
- The resident has the right to do ALL procedures/cases/whatever that they want to, obviously there is a minimum to be met, but as long as you're the resident, you should always have the right to do whatever you feel comfortable (or uncomfortable) with to achieve mastery.

Lol to the last point.
Crossed out the non-sense.

No more of this useless peon bull**** being jerked around by admin. Residency programs are literally being funded by law by the government and if a hospital accepts that responsibility (which some have to for the sake of our country's healthcare and safety) - Then any of the bylaws set in place supersedes everything - even the whim of the attendings who want their precious midlevels to do more procedures.

not sure what power you have to do anything above.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Lol to the last point.
Crossed out the non-sense.

not sure what power you have to do anything above.

I have no illusion as to how powerless any single person is to change something. And as non-sensical as some of those points may be to you, there are many residents who cannot afford to live in the cities they got (uncontrollably) matched to for residency, and the fact there is even a disparity in residency training spots and medical school education spots shows a complete lack of planning by the part of the government and the bodies accrediting schools and residencies. Furthermore, if the government is going to spend all this money on training physicians, why not make laws protecting said training, otherwise, what a terrible ROI. Physicians are coming out of school with way too much debt to go unmatched, or to be unable to afford where they matched, or go to a program with less quality just because that hospital preferred to use midlevels over residents for certain aspects.

 

[libertyyne]

I have no illusion as to how powerless any single person is to change something. And as non-sensical as some of those points may be to you, there are many residents who cannot afford to live in the cities they got (uncontrollably) matched to for residency, and the fact there is even a disparity in residency training spots and medical school education spots shows a complete lack of planning by the part of the government and the bodies accrediting schools and residencies. Furthermore, if the government is going to spend all this money on training physicians, why not make laws protecting said training, otherwise, what a terrible ROI. Physicians are coming out of school with way too much debt to go unmatched, or to be unable to afford where they matched, or go to a program with less quality just because that hospital preferred to use midlevels over residents for certain aspects.

they have control by applying to programs that are in the midwest, and not applying to stanford or wash u, or nyc. If it was truely the case that people stopped applying to these competitive programs these programs would have to provide housing and sweeten the pot to attract more people.
No one is holding a gun to a persons head and telling them to go to medical school.
No one is telling people to go to private expensive medical schools.
There are currently more residency spots than there are american medical graduates.

Although there is a lot of talk about midlevels getting preference over residents and anecdotes abound, there is no clear evidence currently that that is impacting a majority of residents in a negative way or leading to less trained physicians overall.

Furthermore, have you ever thought that maybe it is more cost effective for the government to train NPs and PAs? less time spent in school , less cost training for residency?

Or how that using FMGs is actually cheaper than funding schools?

Here is the UW compensation.

The average compensation of a resident is still higher than the average compensation of average joe in the city of Seattle.

I am applying to a competitive specialty. You know the first thing i did after i made up my mind, i looked at the cost of living in most programs and immediately crossed off programs where I knew i could not afford to live with a family. I will not even be applying to those programs.

We are all adults and knew the risks coming into medical school or should have known the risks. the residents applying to those programs knew how expensive those cities were.

And no one is getting uncontrollably matched into a program. You have to spend money on an application, you have interview, and you have to rank. That sounds like the exact opposite of uncontrollably.

 

[obiwan]

Just to keep everyone updated from a source with direct knowledge and affect from this ... the PA "residency" program WILL NOT happen at least for this upcoming year with opposition raised by leaders/housestaff within the EM division ........ that being said, this planned UNC program is not the first "residency/fellowship" program out there for midlevels/advanced practice providers

 

[67552931811]

Just to keep everyone updated from a source with direct knowledge and affect from this ... the PA "residency" program WILL NOT happen at least for this upcoming year with opposition raised by leaders/housestaff within the EM division ........ that being said, this planned UNC program is not the first "residency/fellowship" program out there for midlevels/advanced practice providers

you should ask that person why they have a job posting for an EM pa faculty position for said “residency” which states a begin date of July 1, 2020

 

[nimbus]

they have control by applying to programs that are in the midwest, and not applying to stanford or wash u, or nyc. If it was truely the case that people stopped applying to these competitive programs these programs would have to provide housing and sweeten the pot to attract more people.
No one is holding a gun to a persons head and telling them to go to medical school.
No one is telling people to go to private expensive medical schools.
There are currently more residency spots than there are american medical graduates.

Although there is a lot of talk about midlevels getting preference over residents and anecdotes abound, there is no clear evidence currently that that is impacting a majority of residents in a negative way or leading to less trained physicians overall.

Furthermore, have you ever thought that maybe it is more cost effective for the government to train NPs and PAs? less time spent in school , less cost training for residency?

Or how that using FMGs is actually cheaper than funding schools?
View attachment 296540
Here is the UW compensation.
View attachment 296541

The average compensation of a resident is still higher than the average compensation of average joe in the city of Seattle.

I am applying to a competitive specialty. You know the first thing i did after i made up my mind, i looked at the cost of living in most programs and immediately crossed off programs where I knew i could not afford to live with a family. I will not even be applying to those programs.

We are all adults and knew the risks coming into medical school or should have known the risks. the residents applying to those programs knew how expensive those cities were.

And no one is getting uncontrollably matched into a program. You have to spend money on an application, you have interview, and you have to rank. That sounds like the exact opposite of uncontrollably.

Since Stanford was brought up, it has one of the highest house staff salaries in the country. 68k for PGY1 plus $7200 housing allowance, 3k moving allowance, 2k educational allowance, and a 1k cell phone allowance.

Stipends & Bonuses

www.med.stanford.edu

 

[deleted480308]

As an MS-II, I really hope there is massive residency reform in the coming years. I think it's about time - There has been enough talk / walk-outs / demonstrations / problems lately that it's time for a change.
- First and foremost, every student who completes and PASSES their MD/DO school deserves a residency spot.
- The government must ALWAYS have enough spots for the amount of students graduating. And if there is not any way to increase residency spots for a certain year, then no schools should be allowed to be opened. Period.
- All residency salaries should be forced to reflect the average cost of living for the area the hospital is in (Yes someone with a residency in San Francisco is going to need more money for their apartment than someone in Rochester, NY)
- The resident has the right to do ALL procedures/cases/whatever that they want to, obviously there is a minimum to be met, but as long as you're the resident, you should always have the right to do whatever you feel comfortable (or uncomfortable) with to achieve mastery.

No more of this useless peon bull**** being jerked around by admin. Residency programs are literally being funded by law by the government and if a hospital accepts that responsibility (which some have to for the sake of our country's healthcare and safety) - Then any of the bylaws set in place supersedes everything - even the whim of the attendings who want their precious midlevels to do more procedures.

I'm so sick of residents/physicians being this punching bag that is told to always just "deal with it" just because we "make good money" - The only reason we deserve to make good money is because of the sacrifice we put in and because when you hire a physician, no matter what, you are getting what you are paying for - a healthcare professional who is going to be knowledgeable and stellar at what they do, save the hospital and patient money (By not over-ordering tests), save lives, minimize mistakes, be a good team player, and always perform at their maximum - like a well-oiled machine. But the only way we can make that promise though, is if the training for a physician is streamlined, high quality, and 100% enforced to give the best education possible. WE NEED RESIDENCY REFORM NOW.

No, he govt does not owe you a residency spot

 

[Mass Effect]

The ACGME survey IS anonymous and unless you've been vocal about the things in the survey in the past, there is no way for the program to know which resident(s) complained. Let's not instill fear in people and unintentionally encourage them to support malignant programs.

Also, no program is going to be shut down if the only thing wrong with it is PA/NP encroachment. Programs that lose accreditation have many things wrong with them and I'd argue that it's up to residents (even if they wait until they're seniors to do so) to speak out if they're being abused/mistreated/undereducated, etc. This code of silence among residents is why things like PA/NP encroachment are allowed to happen. If you can't speak up now, do it in your last year as a resident or call the ACGME anonymously as you're about to graduate. Don't just let it be someone else's problem.

Also, I am 100% in support of resident unions.

 

[Mass Effect]

they have control by applying to programs that are in the midwest, and not applying to stanford or wash u, or nyc. If it was truely the case that people stopped applying to these competitive programs these programs would have to provide housing and sweeten the pot to attract more people.

Isn't Wash U in St. Louis, the midwest?

Also, I don't believe for a second that those applying for competitive specialties aren't ranking every place they interviewed. I just don't buy it. If you truly want derm, you're going to rank BU and NYU. FM, sure, skip the expensive cities.

Since Stanford was brought up, it has one of the highest house staff salaries in the country. 68k for PGY1 plus $7200 housing allowance, 3k moving allowance, 2k educational allowance, and a 1k cell phone allowance.

As it should be.

No, he govt does not owe you a residency spot

If the government is going to invest in you by giving you federal loans to become a physician, they have a vested interest in you actually being able to get a medical license, so yes, I'd say they do owe any med school graduate a residency spot - though I'd say it doesn't have to be in the specialty they choose. But all U.S. med school graduates should be able to get a primary care residency at the very least.

 

[libertyyne]

Isn't Wash U in St. Louis, the midwest?

Also, I don't believe for a second that those applying for competitive specialties aren't ranking every place they interviewed. I just don't buy it. If you truly want derm, you're going to rank BU and NYU. FM, sure, skip the expensive cities.



As it should be.



If the government is going to invest in you by giving you federal loans to become a physician, they have a vested interest in you actually being able to get a medical license, so yes, I'd say they do owe any med school graduate a residency spot - though I'd say it doesn't have to be in the specialty they choose. But all U.S. med school graduates should be able to get a primary care residency at the very least.

I'm sorry. But if you are applying to a high col area , and are interviewing at a high col ranking a high col area . It is the programs fault? You absolutely knew the col and the benefits. It is not some sticker shock. People out here chasing prestige or quality of life applying to these places and are shocked when they match.
The salary data was from u wash. I try to call the other place slu.

Washington’s Struggling Medical Residents Need a Raise

How bullying, depression, debt, and 90-hour weeks pushed members of the University of Washington Housestaff Association to walk out of the job.

www.thenation.com

 

[deleted480308]

Isn't Wash U in St. Louis, the midwest?

Also, I don't believe for a second that those applying for competitive specialties aren't ranking every place they interviewed. I just don't buy it. If you truly want derm, you're going to rank BU and NYU. FM, sure, skip the expensive cities.



As it should be.



If the government is going to invest in you by giving you federal loans to become a physician, they have a vested interest in you actually being able to get a medical license, so yes, I'd say they do owe any med school graduate a residency spot - though I'd say it doesn't have to be in the specialty they choose. But all U.S. med school graduates should be able to get a primary care residency at the very least.

Like the owe a job to every doofus undergrad with $150k in loans for a sociology degree? Nope. The govt does not owe someone a residency

 

[NurWollen]

I'm sorry. But if you are applying to a high col area , and are interviewing at a high col ranking a high col area . It is the programs fault? You absolutely knew the col and the benefits. It is not some sticker shock. People out here chasing prestige or quality of life applying to these places and are shocked when they match.
The salary data was from u wash. I try to call the other place slu.

Washington’s Struggling Medical Residents Need a Raise

How bullying, depression, debt, and 90-hour weeks pushed members of the University of Washington Housestaff Association to walk out of the job.

www.thenation.com

Don't call WashU in St Louis 'SLU.' While they are located a couple miles from each other, they are two completely different schools.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[obiwan]

you should ask that person why they have a job posting for an EM pa faculty position for said “residency” which states a begin date of July 1, 2020

From what was told to me, there was a meeting yesterday at UNC with the EM program leadership and housestaff who voiced significant opposition to this residency program and so decision not to proceed. The faculty members were actually unaware of this program being started as it seemed that it was just dropped on their desk and they pretty much found out when it started making headway on social media. My source is an associate PD in the EM program

 

[jw3600]

From what was told to me, there was a meeting yesterday at UNC with the EM program leadership and housestaff who voiced significant opposition to this residency program and so decision not to proceed. The faculty members were actually unaware of this program being started as it seemed that it was just dropped on their desk and they pretty much found out when it started making headway on social media. My source is an associate PD in the EM program

Possible. Also could be a concocted PR move. Unfortunately we will never know. Maybe the response will stave off this nonsense a little longer,

 

[risus_sardonicus]

From what was told to me, there was a meeting yesterday at UNC with the EM program leadership and housestaff who voiced significant opposition to this residency program and so decision not to proceed. The faculty members were actually unaware of this program being started as it seemed that it was just dropped on their desk and they pretty much found out when it started making headway on social media. My source is an associate PD in the EM program

Lol “dropped on their desk”... sure seems legit

 

[PikminOC]

This is where things get muddy. That would mean to create more supply of EM docs and it's a sensitive subject in the EM subforum. On the other hand, they can't seem to control their midlevels.

Yes np are saturating themselves already!

 

[PikminOC]

Exactly, that's the problem. It's insane that these MIDLEVELS, not APPs, MIDLEVELS are taking offense at the fact that there has to be a leader, and that leader is the physician. This is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, lol. The physician knows best, solely because of the fact that he or she trained for this very responsibility.

I treat mid-level. They love that the physician is the one on the hook for the malpractice as they are the highest earners

 

[PikminOC]

My MD friend in 2007 was getting trained in anesthesia at Penn State by NP

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm sorry. But if you are applying to a high col area , and are interviewing at a high col ranking a high col area . It is the programs fault? You absolutely knew the col and the benefits. It is not some sticker shock. People out here chasing prestige or quality of life applying to these places and are shocked when they match.
The salary data was from u wash. I try to call the other place slu.

Washington’s Struggling Medical Residents Need a Raise

How bullying, depression, debt, and 90-hour weeks pushed members of the University of Washington Housestaff Association to walk out of the job.

www.thenation.com

Even McDonald's doesn't agree with you. The salary for a McDonald's crew member in Seattle is 20 - 34% above the national average (around $12 - 14 an hour). Meanwhile, PGY 1 residents at Univ of WA get $18 - 20 an hour, assuming a 60 - 80 hour work week. No one is saying residents should be paid 100K, but I don't think it's out of bounds for them to ask for a higher salary than 18 bucks an hour and frankly, I'm of the opinion that anyone thinking it's wrong for them to ask for higher pay is just being oppositional for the sake of the dog-eat-dog world in medicine. The argument that they knew the salary and took the job is hogwash. I knew my salary when I signed on the dotted line as the attending. Doesn't mean I won't ask for a raise, particularly after doing my market research. Same goes for these residents.

 

[Mass Effect]

Like the owe a job to every doofus undergrad with $150k in loans for a sociology degree? Nope. The govt does not owe someone a residency

Except that medicine isn't sociology and last I checked, the feds weren't complaining about a shortage of sociology degree holders.

 

[deleted480308]

Except that medicine isn't sociology and last I checked, the feds weren't complaining about a shortage of sociology degree holders.

It’s none of the govts business how many of either worker there are...let the market figure it out

 

[libertyyne]

Even McDonald's doesn't agree with you. The salary for a McDonald's crew member in Seattle is 20 - 34% above the national average (around $12 - 14 an hour). Meanwhile, PGY 1 residents at Univ of WA get $18 - 20 an hour, assuming a 60 - 80 hour work week. No one is saying residents should be paid 100K, but I don't think it's out of bounds for them to ask for a higher salary than 18 bucks an hour and frankly, I'm of the opinion that anyone thinking it's wrong for them to ask for higher pay is just being oppositional for the sake of the dog-eat-dog world in medicine. The argument that they knew the salary and took the job is hogwash. I knew my salary when I signed on the dotted line as the attending. Doesn't mean I won't ask for a raise, particularly after doing my market research. Same goes for these residents.

Im sorry, but this is a weird argument. Mcdonalds has nothing to do with U of WA resident salaries. Residents are paid a wage that is higher than the average wage of a person in that region. Per hour wage doesnt mean squat, because residents like other professionals are salaried. And the Mcdonalds worker still has to live on less than what the resident has to live on.

Nothing wrong with asking for a raise, But the problem i have is with people painting these people as stuck in a HCOL area due to no fault of their own and the match process. They literally had to jump through hoops of applying to these programs , interviewing and then ranking. They could have easily gone to programs in the midwest / or south or even lower col areas in the west coast. People go to these places because of the prestige and the perceived higher quality of life, are american medical graduate from good schools and good applications who would have plenty of options in cheaper areas if they wanted to go there.

It is like if someone made the decision to buy a mercedes on a lower income and are now complaining that the payments are onerous.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Didn’t I already settle the argument that UoW residents can live very well on cheap hot Banh Mis everyday?

 

[Mass Effect]

It’s none of the govts business how many of either worker there are...let the market figure it out

When the government subsidizes residency programs AND forgives student loan debt, it damn sure is the government's business.

 

[deleted480308]

When the government subsidizes residency programs AND forgives student loan debt, it damn sure is the government's business.

It should do neither.

 

[Mass Effect]

Im sorry, but this is a weird argument. Mcdonalds has nothing to do with U of WA resident salaries

Wait, why doesn't it? The argument about resident salaries always invokes the comparison to other workers in the city ("if so and so can do it on his [insert job title] job, why can't you?"). Suddenly McDonald's has nothing to do with it? The point is that even McDonald's recognizes that given the HCOL in Seattle, a higher salary is reasonable.

Residents are paid a wage that is higher than the average wage of a person in that region. Per hour wage doesnt mean squat, because residents like other professionals are salaried. And the Mcdonalds worker still has to live on less than what the resident has to live on.

Actually per-hour wage DOES mean something when making a direct comparison to a McDonald's worker. After 4 years undergrad + 4 years med school + 200K in loans, getting paid $4 more an hour is utterly ridiculous.

Nothing wrong with asking for a raise, But the problem i have is with people painting these people as stuck in a HCOL area due to no fault of their own and the match process

I'm not aware of anyone who said "I was just sitting at the table, minding my own business, and BAM, I ended up in Seattle with a white coat." Everyone realizes they had a part in this. That doesn't make up for the poor salaries and they have as much right as everyone else to ask for a raise.

They literally had to jump through hoops of applying to these programs , interviewing and then ranking. They could have easily gone to programs in the midwest / or south or even lower col areas in the west coast. People go to these places because of the prestige and the perceived higher quality of life, are american medical graduate from good schools and good applications who would have plenty of options in cheaper areas if they wanted to go there

This is a crazy argument. U of WA is not Harvard. Hell, it's not even Wash U. It's U of WA. Someone has to match there. Not everyone can go to North Dakota where they actually make a living wage in residency. That's no reason that residents in these HCOL areas shouldn't ask for a raise, particularly when they see comparable places offering higher salaries and/or subsidized housing.

It is like if someone made the decision to buy a mercedes on a lower income and are now complaining that the payments are onerous.

No, it isn't like that. It's only like that if you twist and bend yourself into a pretzel to make it like that.

 

[Mass Effect]

It should do neither.

Are you looking to subsidize residency programs?

 

[deleted480308]

Are you looking to subsidize residency programs?

They should be led by the market. If the market won’t bear a 7yr neurosurgeon then there won’t be any

 

[Mass Effect]

They should be led by the market. If the market won’t bear a 7yr neurosurgeon then there won’t be any

Ready to say peace out to all patients with neurosurgery issues?