Pa or Np career choice for RN?

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thedude08

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For the last few years I have done everything possible to get into pa school. Good grades, EMT certification, and switched my major to nursing for more experience (or for a guaranteed medical job if i get rejected).
With a bsn, is it an easier or shorter route to get in/complete NP school rather than a masters PA program? Also, I can find no substantial differences in the professions. I know I want to be a PA, but if NP is the easier route and the job and pay are pretty much the same, I would be foolish not to look into NP school. Any thoughts?

PS
I know about the 2 joint pa/np programs (likely neither will be right for me), and I think that everyone is tired of debating which healthcare provider is better. I am merely curious about the differences in education and job descriptions.

thanks

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both programs run around 2 years.
pros and cons of both as I see them:

pa:
pros:
more solid didactic and clinical eduction with > 2000 hrs of clinical rotations on which you are treated like a medstudent and expected to perform at that level. ability to work in any field without going back to school. higher avg salary than np.less of a threat to doctors because we require physician involvement (at least at a superficial level) to work

cons:
more difficult/involved science prereqs.
can't work during school-too intense.
more difficult to open your own practice because you always have to have an association with a supervising physician. it is doable but involves lots of work, generally hiring a few retired docs(you need 2 in case 1 quits/dies) as your employees to review a few charts, etc
not everyone knows what a pa is.

np:
pros:
less intense science prereqs for admission.
some states allow complete independence so you can open your own practice without having to deal with a supervisor of any kind.
ability to work during school. most np programs are essentially 2 yr part time programs and it is not uncommon for np students to work at least 20 hrs/week as np's during their entire program.higher visibility= everyone knows what an np is.
cons: education not as intense as pa so weaker knowledge of pharmacology and many aspects of medicne (medical decision making, etc)
certification specific to just 1 field(peds, womens health, adult med, etc) so if you decide you want to do something else you have to go back to school. fnp is probably the most versatile np cert but still provides no inpt or surgical experience.

job outlook:
more inpt pa jobs(surgery, hospitalist, emergency medicine).
more outpt primary care np jobs(fp, peds, ob)

want to do surgery? go pa. want to do obgyn or peds? go np.

a pa and an np in the same office with the same seniority typically make the same salary.

good luck whatever you decide.
 
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I agree with essentially everything emedpa posted. A couple clarification points: much of it depends on your state regulatory boards what you can and cannot do as a PA or NP, so look at that. As an NP student you cannot "work" as an NP, not until you are licensed as an NP. You can always work as an RN, which is your pre-requisite profession. The NP certification is a rider on top of the RN license. Gives you flexibility for an extra "RN" day here and there for the nice agency ICU cash, but I don't advise it since you are always held to the highest level of your education for liability purposes, but you cannot function as an NP when you are picking up an RN shift. So same liability without the ability to write any orders, only alert the main medical provider... you see it can get sticky.

I fully agree the PA training is better. I guess the theory is that the NP training is supposed to be in addition to your RN experience already held. But a year or two out and you can't see the difference in PA vs NP in the same arena, my experience. A lot of docs give us a good deal of respect in our role (we are NOT trying to be physicians), and value in the team, but some don't. Anyway, emedpa is also right in the specialties. If you want surg then go PA. Though emedpa is not entirely correct in the setting. Our ACNPs are trained specifically for an acute care role, in the hospital and ICU. The FNP or ANP or even GNP, PNP, and PsyNP can see patients in the hospital or clinic. It is not the setting that determines scope, it is the situation being treated, and the type of patient (age, gender, ailment, acuity, complexity). Just like a Family Physician can see their hospitalized patients, even though they are not specifically Internal Medicine or whathaveyou. The shape of our scope practice is the same as that of a physician in the same field, only our scope is not as broad or as deep.

I don't know how a PA feels just out of school, but I tell you I felt grossly undertrained and undereducated. It sucked. I had to rise to the challenge in a major way, and read my butt off on every diagnosis when I came across it, even if it was simple stuff, just so I had it down cold the next time around before I started writing for a bunch of labs and meds. As an FNP I have been working as a hospitalist for a year and a half. I work in acute care, ICU, LTACs, take pager-call... I was an employee for a bit but after developing a good reputation with physicians who saw that I do a thorough job, am conscientious, caring, can handle complex patients, always keep them in the loop and ask clinical questions/guidance, and set firm boundaries on my scope limits of what I will see or not see and who I expect them to see in addition to my visit, and when I will just defer the entire case over to them and back out. After gaining a good rep then I became an independent contractor, and now I will see a docs patients for him/her a day or two each week for a fee. That gives them the weekend off, or nights free of pages, or a weekday off. I either charge per pt/progress note, or a flat rate for a day. I submit my billing to them, and they submit the billing to insurance. They have to cosign my notes and briefly visualize the patient in a certain period of time, for facility policy and billing at the doc rate reasons.

Anyway sorry for the digression, my point is that your decision depends on how you view your career structure. All that being said, I had to go back to pre-med stuff since I need to know more, and want to do more clinically. My RN/NP pre-reqs are not conducive to medschool, but PA pre-reqs are a bit closer to those required. So a big step back for me to go forward... if MD/DO might still be a future for you, then go PA.
 
I agree with essentially everything emedpa posted. A couple clarification points: much of it depends on your state regulatory boards what you can and cannot do as a PA or NP, so look at that. As an NP student you cannot "work" as an NP, not until you are licensed as an NP. You can always work as an RN, which is your pre-requisite profession. The NP certification is a rider on top of the RN license. Gives you flexibility for an extra "RN" day here and there for the nice agency ICU cash, but I don't advise it since you are always held to the highest level of your education for liability purposes, but you cannot function as an NP when you are picking up an RN shift. So same liability without the ability to write any orders, only alert the main medical provider... you see it can get sticky.

You have to watch this. Depending on the state you may be held to the standard of an NP and there are a number of NP's that have been sued over this. Some of the hospitals are reacting to the increased liability.

I fully agree the PA training is better. I guess the theory is that the NP training is supposed to be in addition to your RN experience already held. But a year or two out and you can't see the difference in PA vs NP in the same arena, my experience. A lot of docs give us a good deal of respect in our role (we are NOT trying to be physicians), and value in the team, but some don't. Anyway, emedpa is also right in the specialties. If you want surg then go PA. Though emedpa is not entirely correct in the setting. Our ACNPs are trained specifically for an acute care role, in the hospital and ICU. The FNP or ANP or even GNP, PNP, and PsyNP can see patients in the hospital or clinic. It is not the setting that determines scope, it is the situation being treated, and the type of patient (age, gender, ailment, acuity, complexity). Just like a Family Physician can see their hospitalized patients, even though they are not specifically Internal Medicine or whathaveyou. The shape of our scope practice is the same as that of a physician in the same field, only our scope is not as broad or as deep.

Once again it depends on the state and hospital. One thing that you have to remember is that you are limited by your NP certification to what you can see. FNP can see everyone but ANP cannot see peds and vice versa. In my area we are seeing new FNP's denied hospital credentials since they have no training in inpatient medicine as NP's. You also have to watch out for certification issues. For example state law may allow ACNP's to see FP patients, but ACNP certification only applies to urgent care or inpatient. Also certification requires an ACNP to work within their certification (see the circular logic here). Overall outside the FNP, NP degrees are more limiting than PA degrees which are essentially tied to their physician.

I don't know how a PA feels just out of school, but I tell you I felt grossly undertrained and undereducated. It sucked. I had to rise to the challenge in a major way, and read my butt off on every diagnosis when I came across it, even if it was simple stuff, just so I had it down cold the next time around before I started writing for a bunch of labs and meds. As an FNP I have been working as a hospitalist for a year and a half. I work in acute care, ICU, LTACs, take pager-call... I was an employee for a bit but after developing a good reputation with physicians who saw that I do a thorough job, am conscientious, caring, can handle complex patients, always keep them in the loop and ask clinical questions/guidance, and set firm boundaries on my scope limits of what I will see or not see and who I expect them to see in addition to my visit, and when I will just defer the entire case over to them and back out. After gaining a good rep then I became an independent contractor, and now I will see a docs patients for him/her a day or two each week for a fee. That gives them the weekend off, or nights free of pages, or a weekday off. I either charge per pt/progress note, or a flat rate for a day. I submit my billing to them, and they submit the billing to insurance. They have to cosign my notes and briefly visualize the patient in a certain period of time, for facility policy and billing at the doc rate reasons.

Umm you realize that this billing arrangement is probably not kosher. You cannot have an MD bill for you for medicare. For them to bill they have to see the patient the same day and partipate in care. They also have to be in the same practice. I actually haven't looked at the independent contractor rules. I guess it would depend on the state.

Anyway sorry for the digression, my point is that your decision depends on how you view your career structure. All that being said, I had to go back to pre-med stuff since I need to know more, and want to do more clinically. My RN/NP pre-reqs are not conducive to medschool, but PA pre-reqs are a bit closer to those required. So a big step back for me to go forward... if MD/DO might still be a future for you, then go PA.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
"... I submit my billing to them, and they submit the billing to insurance. They have to cosign my notes and briefly visualize the patient in a certain period of time, for facility policy and billing at the doc rate reasons."

"Umm you realize that this billing arrangement is probably not kosher. You cannot have an MD bill for you for medicare. For them to bill they have to see the patient the same day and partipate in care. They also have to be in the same practice. I actually haven't looked at the independent contractor rules. I guess it would depend on the state. "

Yes, that is correct. The doc has to be in the same group, usually is the sponsoring physician in an official capacity, and must see the patient as well, though does not have to do a full progress note or exam. They do not have to duplicate the work that has already been done, but they do have to visualize the patient, and add a signature and any comments/guidance/or orders to the NP or PA notes. Then it is acceptable to bill out at the doc rate, under the physician.
 
"... I submit my billing to them, and they submit the billing to insurance. They have to cosign my notes and briefly visualize the patient in a certain period of time, for facility policy and billing at the doc rate reasons."

"Umm you realize that this billing arrangement is probably not kosher. You cannot have an MD bill for you for medicare. For them to bill they have to see the patient the same day and partipate in care. They also have to be in the same practice. I actually haven't looked at the independent contractor rules. I guess it would depend on the state. "

Yes, that is correct. The doc has to be in the same group, usually is the sponsoring physician in an official capacity, and must see the patient as well, though does not have to do a full progress note or exam. They do not have to duplicate the work that has already been done, but they do have to visualize the patient, and add a signature and any comments/guidance/or orders to the NP or PA notes. Then it is acceptable to bill out at the doc rate, under the physician.


Actually I looked into the independent contractor and this is allowed. The physician needs to move from a solo to a group practice and then assign your medicare provider number to them for claims. This is perfectly allowable. I'm not sure how this would work across multiple practices, I do know that PA surgical assist groups uses this model.

I am confused on how exactly you work. You described as allowing them to take a day or weekend off which would imply that they do not see the patient. In this case they would bill under your provider number and collect at 85%. If you are co billing they have to see the patient and participate in some part of the care plan. This can repeat your work or be additional work. Seen and discussed is not acceptable. As far as independent contracting with other insurance beside medicaid and medicare it would depend on the state and insurance company. Some specifically prohibit this and some allow it. Most want you to bill under the physician so they don't have to credential NPP's. The medicare billing is what gets most people in trouble since it is poorly understood and has substantial penalties for non-compliance.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
While working as a hospitalist, do you round with an attending? Or are you the only one that sees the patient (not counting consults, etc.)?

I agree with essentially everything emedpa posted. A couple clarification points: much of it depends on your state regulatory boards what you can and cannot do as a PA or NP, so look at that. As an NP student you cannot "work" as an NP, not until you are licensed as an NP. You can always work as an RN, which is your pre-requisite profession. The NP certification is a rider on top of the RN license. Gives you flexibility for an extra "RN" day here and there for the nice agency ICU cash, but I don't advise it since you are always held to the highest level of your education for liability purposes, but you cannot function as an NP when you are picking up an RN shift. So same liability without the ability to write any orders, only alert the main medical provider... you see it can get sticky.

I fully agree the PA training is better. I guess the theory is that the NP training is supposed to be in addition to your RN experience already held. But a year or two out and you can't see the difference in PA vs NP in the same arena, my experience. A lot of docs give us a good deal of respect in our role (we are NOT trying to be physicians), and value in the team, but some don't. Anyway, emedpa is also right in the specialties. If you want surg then go PA. Though emedpa is not entirely correct in the setting. Our ACNPs are trained specifically for an acute care role, in the hospital and ICU. The FNP or ANP or even GNP, PNP, and PsyNP can see patients in the hospital or clinic. It is not the setting that determines scope, it is the situation being treated, and the type of patient (age, gender, ailment, acuity, complexity). Just like a Family Physician can see their hospitalized patients, even though they are not specifically Internal Medicine or whathaveyou. The shape of our scope practice is the same as that of a physician in the same field, only our scope is not as broad or as deep.

I don't know how a PA feels just out of school, but I tell you I felt grossly undertrained and undereducated. It sucked. I had to rise to the challenge in a major way, and read my butt off on every diagnosis when I came across it, even if it was simple stuff, just so I had it down cold the next time around before I started writing for a bunch of labs and meds. As an FNP I have been working as a hospitalist for a year and a half. I work in acute care, ICU, LTACs, take pager-call... I was an employee for a bit but after developing a good reputation with physicians who saw that I do a thorough job, am conscientious, caring, can handle complex patients, always keep them in the loop and ask clinical questions/guidance, and set firm boundaries on my scope limits of what I will see or not see and who I expect them to see in addition to my visit, and when I will just defer the entire case over to them and back out. After gaining a good rep then I became an independent contractor, and now I will see a docs patients for him/her a day or two each week for a fee. That gives them the weekend off, or nights free of pages, or a weekday off. I either charge per pt/progress note, or a flat rate for a day. I submit my billing to them, and they submit the billing to insurance. They have to cosign my notes and briefly visualize the patient in a certain period of time, for facility policy and billing at the doc rate reasons.

Anyway sorry for the digression, my point is that your decision depends on how you view your career structure. All that being said, I had to go back to pre-med stuff since I need to know more, and want to do more clinically. My RN/NP pre-reqs are not conducive to medschool, but PA pre-reqs are a bit closer to those required. So a big step back for me to go forward... if MD/DO might still be a future for you, then go PA.
 
Exactly. When I am working with the doc present, then that is how it is done. When I cover for a day or a weekend, then it is billed out at the nonphysician rate. Facility policy still has rules about how soon the sponsoring doc must cosign notes, aside from the billing stuff. The acute care hospitals out here usually require a cosign on the same day; in the LTAC setting, usually they need to sign withing 24 business hours, which means that I can cover a weekend and they can sign on Monday. The SNFs and ECFs I am not sure as I haven't worked any of those, my guess is that billing is just done at the 85% rate, and I believe medicare rules mandate a physician visit once per month minimum.
 
While working as a hospitalist, do you round with an attending? Or are you the only one that sees the patient (not counting consults, etc.)?

When I work in an acute setting, then we do joint rounds. I will have a patient load assigned to me, and (s)he will see their patients and I will see mine. I give reports and updates on everyone to the doc. Through the same day the doc will also check out my patients personally. Kind of a "physician-extender" model, I lighten his/her workload a bit. I will do H&Ps and whatnot, but when another physician in a different specialty such as surgical or whatnot requests in IM consult for management of comorbidities, the consult might be done by my physician since they are the specialist. If it is straight foreward stuff, routine medical management, and stable, and the doc requesting the IM consult is okay with it, then its allright for me to do the initial consult. But my sponsoring docs are always closely involved. I view the patients as "their" patient, and I am being helpful to them within my scope.

If I cover a weekend for a doc, it is not the acute setting but rather the LTAC setting where they are more stable. I get a sign out from the doc on Friday and I sign out to them on Monday am. They tell me if they want anything specific done over the weekend, or looked into, etc. They are always immediately available by phone for me to contact with clinical questions and collaboration, and if need be they must physically come see a pt if I ask them to or the clinical situation warrents it, such as decompensation or unexpected serious event. So, they can't leave town or anything, or if they do, they have a second physician assigned for this oversight.
 
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