PA Residencies

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DogFaceMedic

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My wife is a PA student - prior ICU RN with lots of experience. (She dragged me out of my comfortable foxhole and made me go to med school.)

Having a PA residency seems redundant if PA is experienced already, and the additional residency makes PA training virtually identical to MD training w/o as much salary. On the other hand, PA students w/o much prior experience could definately benefit from it and make themselves more competitive.

So, is PA residency useless for some and worthwhile for others?

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My wife is a PA student - prior ICU RN with lots of experience. (She dragged me out of my comfortable foxhole and made me go to med school.)

Having a PA residency seems redundant if PA is experienced already, and the additional residency makes PA training virtually identical to MD training w/o as much salary. On the other hand, PA students w/o much prior experience could definately benefit from it and make themselves more competitive.

So, is PA residency useless for some and worthwhile for others?

have to disagree with you here. I think pa residencies are valuable for any student.
1. only 1 yr long so not as big a committment as an md residency
2. specialty training above and beyond what they get in pa school
3. choice of jobs in their specialty upon graduation at the upper 10% of salary range in places they want to live
4. significantly higher responsibility in their 1st yr of practice vs an entry level job
5. ability to apply for any of the many jobs that say "experienced only need apply"

prior experience is great but it only gets you so far. as a prior paramedic before pa school I know a decent amount about em but there are lots of procedures in em that paramedics just don't do. I had a great em experience in pa school with 27 of 54 weeks of rotations in em/peds em/trauma.
I still think I would have benefited from a residency. unfortunately the 1 I applied for ( and pretty much had a guaranteed spot for) lost funding before I graduated.lots of my friends have done pa surgical residencies and none of them have regretted the decision. one runs a urology clinic and does his own prostate biopsies, vasectomies, etc when not 1st assisting in the o.r.
another works for the ortho group that does most of the knee/shoulder surgeries for major league baseball players. they both make bank. they both have had several offers to join pa program faculty.
there really is no downside to a residency. yes, you make crap money for that yr( 40 k or so) but you probably make 10k/yr more for the rest of your career vs the non-residency grad.
if your wife wants to continue in inpt medicine there are pa residencies now in critical care and hospitalist medicine to consider. there is a lot more to critical care than what is done by an icu nurse both in terms of knowledge base as well as procedures.
www.appap.org
 
Just out of curiosity ... do PA residencies have didactics education included on a weekly basis that MD/DO residencies have (required for accreditation)?



Oh to say PA school + 1 year residency = med school + min 3 years residency ... that is implying that MDs/DOs take minimum of 7 years to learn what PAs learn in 3 years

Let's put it this way ... if your wife, a former ICU nurse, does PA school and a 1 year residency ... would she be "virtually identical" to someone (MD/DO) who is a critical care attending?

Now if you were to compare her to interns and resident ... she would have a leg up compare to the interns and most residents in the ICU
 
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I exaggerated a bit to suggest MD residencies were equivelent to PA residencies, although some MDs clearly didn't get much out of either school or residency and the rest of us have to take up the slack.

You make a strong case for residency, should it be required or leave it up to the market place?
 
Just out of curiosity ... do PA residencies have didactics education included on a weekly basis that MD/DO residencies have (required for accreditation)?
snip

They usually have 2-3 months of didactic then clinical experience for the specialty. Depending on the specialty and program there may be additional weekly training as well as conferences similar to what residences go through.

David Carpetner PA-C
 
CURRICULUM:
Didactic
Lectures, seminars and laboratories have been designed to provide PA Residents with a comprehensive understanding of the pathophysiology of surgical disease processes. Instruction will cover general surgery and subspecialty topics. Emphasis will be placed on the perioperative management of surgical patients including fluids and electrolytes, hyperalimentation, acid/base balance, surgical emergencies, complications, and evaluation of specific organ systems. Cadaver laboatories will include technical skills instruction and practice time for wound closure, chest tube placement, thoracentesis, endoscopic vein harvesting, placement of peripheral lines, etc. In addition to classroom/laboratory instruction, the didactic curriculum will include weekly Attending Rounds, Grand Rounds, M&M Conference and other conferences organized by the Department of Surgery. The initial didactic curriculum will conclude with preparation for clinical rotations. Time is designated for "rounding" with the surgical team and becoming familiar with the routine of the surgical services before assuming clinical responsibilities

Clinical
Physician Assistant Residents will be assigned a workload and duties similar to those of first year (PGY1) physician surgical residents. Duties will include history & physical examinations, writing patient orders and progress notes in the hospital record, responding to and evaluating patient problems, making rounds, ordering diagnostic studies, assisting in the operating room, and performing invasive procedures with appropriate oversight by the supervising physician. Night call will be assigned on a rotating basis. The PA resident will be assigned first-call responsibilities with appropriate supervision and within the scope of his/her practice parameters. The PA Resident will avail himself/herself of additional direction and/or assistance as needed.
Two clinical tracts will be offered, a Cardiothoracic Surgery and General Surgery Training Track. Clinical Rotations make up eleven months of the curriculum.

General Surgery Track:
The General Surgery Track will consist of core rotations including 5-6 months on the General Surgery services including Vascular, GI, Colorectal, Surgical Oncology, Trauma, and Transplant. .Residents will also rotate on select subspecialty rotations such as Cardiothoracic, Plastics, Surgical Intensive Care, Otolaryngology, Neurosurgery, Urology, and two elective rotations.
Cardiothoracic Surgery Track:
The Residents will rotate on the following services: Surgical Intensive Care Unit, General Surgery, Plastic Surgery, one month split between Vacation / Elective, two months of Cardiac / General Thoracic Step Down Unit coverage, two months of ACU coverage, and two months of CT operating room coverage. Experienced CT Surgical Physician Assistants will assist in developing and perfecting OR skills including suturing and endoscopic conduit harvesting.
UNIVERSITY/INSTITUTION AFFILIATIONS:
Duke University Medical Center is an integral part of Duke University. Duke Hospital, a private nonprofit institution and one of the largest private hospitals in the south, is part of the Medical Center and currently has 1,124 beds. The hospital directs its efforts toward the goals of cutting edge patient care, professional education, and service to the community.
 
I exaggerated a bit to suggest MD residencies were equivelent to PA residencies, although some MDs clearly didn't get much out of either school or residency and the rest of us have to take up the slack.

You make a strong case for residency, should it be required or leave it up to the market place?

My guess - won't happen. There are not enough residencies to take all the PA's coming out of school and never will be unless there is some fundamental change. Training by the individual physician will continue to be the way things go. The exception to this rule may be CT surgery since there are credentialling issues with vein harvesting and CT surgeons are not known for their patience :) .

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
E-Med said:
I had a great em experience in pa school with 27 of 54 weeks of rotations in em/peds em/trauma.
How did you swing that? I'm envious. My rotations will be six weeks each, I have only one elective rotation, and then I do a "Preceptorship" which is eight weeks. I'd love to do Trauma Surg, or Ortho, or Peds EM, but I'll need to choose ONE of the above. Two, if I choose to use the big finale 8-weeker as just another rotation... Anyway, the most I could manage would be 20 weeks (six weeks EM rotation, six weeks elective, eight weeks preceptorship).

Check it out: http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/srhs/passt/MS3.cfm#clinical

No required Ortho. No required Cards. General Surg only. I wanted to check out some Neuroscience/Pain Med stuff, but if that's my elective then Trauma Surg has to move over to the preceptorship. And I was sort of thinking that would be an audition rotation/ extended job interview.
 
required rotations @ 5 weeks each: im, ob, psych, em, peds, surgery
2 preceptorships @12 weeks each: fp, fp or em

what I did: im, ob, psych, em, PEDS EM(for peds), TRAUMA SURGERY(for surgery), fp preceptorship, em preceptorship

so 3 rotations and 1 preceptorship in em/trauma= 27 of 54 weeks

my program has been around since 1971 so they have MANY rotation sites so although there are no true electives you can customize your experience.
folks interested in peds for example did peds surgery for surgery, etc
 
Ahhhhh, I see... cool. Thank you. Maybe I can put a little "English" on my program, and steer it in a particular direction in a similar way.
 
'English' got me my Ortho Gig.;)
 
Physician Assistant Residents will be assigned a workload and duties similar to those of first year (PGY1) physician surgical residents.

I go to an institution that has exactly the same statement in their PA residency description and I'm telling you right now its a bald faced lie.

Lets talk about call for a moment. My program has surg interns on call q4. Surg PA residents are "on call" but they are NEVER on call on their own. IN other words, their call schedule overlaps with the interns. So therefore they do NOT have the same duties as interns.

Furthermore, the nurses page the interns, not hte PAs, to deal with floor issues. The PAs tag along sometimes, but its the intern and not hte PA who writes the orders. AGain, its NOT the same duties as the intern.

The only time when PAs are "independent" of the interns/residents is when the interns are scrubbing in the OR or otherwise busy. Then sometimes a random attending will come down to do a tracheostomy and if there are no interns/residents around, he will let the PA do it and supervise him.

So yes, PAs take call, yes they do H&Ps, labs and all that crap. But its the interns/residents who set the tempo, its the interns/residents who set the schedule, its the interns/residents who dictate patient care. When the team is assembled, PAs are NOT on the same level as interns/residents and that shows clearly.

Now I'm sure emedpa will throw out some BS like "at my hospital, the PA resident RUNS the trauma service and tells the chief PGY5 surgery residents what to do!"

Yes, PAs have their own residencies, but they are nowhere close to MD residencies. I could see that after one day on our surgery service.
 
"PAs have their own residencies, but they are nowhere close to MD residencies. I could see that after one day on our surgery service."

was that the day you decided that rounding wasn't worthwhile?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=356871

check out the surgical residency at yale/ norwalk...no md residents at all...pa's make up the entire surgical housestaff. they 1st assist every procedure, staff all the surgical clinics and run the floor and the icu.....many of the pa surgical residencies are like this.....I know montefiore in NY uses pa surgical residents interchangeably with pgy-1 surgical interns. good friends of mine attended both of these programs which are considered the 2 best pa surgical residencies of the many out there.
www.appap.org
 
"PAs have their own residencies, but they are nowhere close to MD residencies. I could see that after one day on our surgery service."

was that the day you decided that rounding wasn't worthwhile?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=356871

check out the surgical residency at yale/ norwalk...no md residents at all...pa's make up the entire surgical housestaff. they 1st assist every procedure, staff all the surgical clinics and run the floor and the icu.....many of the pa surgical residencies are like this.....I know montefiore in NY uses pa surgical residents interchangeably with pgy-1 surgical interns. good friends of mine attended both of these programs which are considered the 2 best pa surgical residencies of the many out there.
www.appap.org


EMEDPA, Four of my classmates were all accepted at Yale/Norwalk this year and from what I've heard it is the bomb.

Even though I'm out making money, I have to admit I'm really jealous of all the learning oppurtunities that they have access to. I think that they all will be extraordinarily prepared for a surgical career.

-Mike
 
"PAs have their own residencies, but they are nowhere close to MD residencies. I could see that after one day on our surgery service."

was that the day you decided that rounding wasn't worthwhile?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=356871

check out the surgical residency at yale/ norwalk...no md residents at all...pa's make up the entire surgical housestaff. they 1st assist every procedure, staff all the surgical clinics and run the floor and the icu.....many of the pa surgical residencies are like this.....I know montefiore in NY uses pa surgical residents interchangeably with pgy-1 surgical interns. good friends of mine attended both of these programs which are considered the 2 best pa surgical residencies of the many out there.
www.appap.org

If your intent is to be a PA, then this looks like a very prestigious program. It is by no means equal to an MD/DO surgical residency - they are apples and oranges. This residency is only 1 year long and there are no MD residents because there's not a surgical residency at this hospital. BUT, having said that - I think this is an awesome specialty to go into for PAs. It looks like it would provide a nice lifestyle with interesting cases for those who really don't like primary care.

I agree that it looks like one of the best residencies out there for PAs, and despite what SOME of you think, I have never bashed PAs for their job, only argued with certain posters who have the attitude that PAs can and should do everything in medicine.

I'm just responding because I'd like to hear more about the PA residencies rather than debate about PA vs. MD residencies in this thread. Personally, I've only had contact with primary care PAs and really didn't know that there was a specialty market for them before I joined SDN and started reading this forum. It's interesting to learn about because it's a valuable field. Again, I reiterate that I just can't stand when the threads go from the OP's subject to MD/DO vs. PA for the umpteenth time.
 
EMEDPA, Four of my classmates were all accepted at Yale/Norwalk this year and from what I've heard it is the bomb.

Even though I'm out making money, I have to admit I'm really jealous of all the learning oppurtunities that they have access to. I think that they all will be extraordinarily prepared for a surgical career.

-Mike

in my mind norwlk is the #1 pa surgical residency in the country. great didactics, excellent clinicals, etc
a good friend of mine did the residency there and was later on staff at the residency. I visited him there and was very impressed. it's great for the residents because housing is included free across the st from the hospital.each resident(and their family) gets an apt that is actually quite nice. the residents work very hard and are on call all the time but learn a lot. my frind has now worked jobs in neurosurgery, ct surgery, trauma, icu hospitalist, and now currently he works in ortho. the position he is at now is with an ortho group that does mostly shoulder and knee work for major league baseball players....pretty sweet gig. great money. free box seats to ball games, etc
 
in my mind norwlk is the #1 pa surgical residency in the country. great didactics, excellent clinicals, etc
a good friend of mine did the residency there and was later on staff at the residency. I visited him there and was very impressed. it's great for the residents because housing is included free across the st from the hospital.each resident(and their family) gets an apt that is actually quite nice. the residents work very hard and are on call all the time but learn a lot. my frind has now worked jobs in neurosurgery, ct surgery, trauma, icu hospitalist, and now currently he works in ortho. the position he is at now is with an ortho group that does mostly shoulder and knee work for major league baseball players....pretty sweet gig. great money. free box seats to ball games, etc

I would also look at the Duke program. Pretty decent from what I here.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I would also look at the Duke program. Pretty decent from what I here.

David Carpenter, PA-C


I'm sure it is a good program but it is only a few yrs old at this point. there are LOTS of surgical residencies to choose from. montefiore in the bronx in new york has been around forever and is an excellent program as well.a good friend of mine went there and now runs a urology clinic at the V.A. . he does prostate biopsies, vasectomies, etc
he also 1st assists in the o.r. 1 day/week.
these are the general surgery residencies. there are also 10 more if you include ortho, urology, and neurosurg:


SURGERY-general
Alderson-Broaddus College 304-457-6356
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center - General Surgery Physician Assistant Residency (909)580-6210
Bassett Healthcare 607-547-6672
Duke University Medical Center 919-684-2705
Grand Rapids PA Surgical Residency 616-391-8651
The Johns Hopkins Hospital
Postgraduate Surgical Residency for Physician Assistants
443-622-2495
Montefiore Medical Center - University Hospital for Albert Einstein College of Medicine 718-920-6223
Morristown Memorial Hospital Surgical Physician Assistant Residency 973-971-5863
New Britain General Hospital PA Residency in General Surgery 860-224-5513
Norwalk Hospital/Yale University School of Medicine (General) 203-852-2188
Medical College of Wisconsin Post Graduate Physician Assistant Training Program
 
Has anyone done an emergency medicine residency/fellowship through a private company (e.g. Team Health/EmCare/Envision/EPMG/etc)? Are they legit? What was your experience? I am considering this and want to make sure I’m not going to be “cheap labor” without the educational benefit. Any advice on how to navigate through a private company would be helpful! Thanks
 
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