PA vs MD i know i know it's probably been done before...

[bkpa2med]

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There are so many loan repayment programs for primary care docs out there. Also, you can't compare earnings of a private practice doc to a PA.

Salaries are for suckers😆

Take for instance a private practice of an IM Doc.

One who sees 4 pt's/hour and sees them for 8hrs/day and works 5 days/wk, 48 weeks out of the year, at a ~$90/office visit, will generate:

$691,200 per year! Now, conservatively speaking, subtract 60% for overheads.

The physician is left with $276,480.😍

 

[abefromann]

Your theory is interesting. But you can't see 4 patients/hr in internal medicine -- it's hard even in Derm to see that. Otherwise people would be doing just that. The going rate is the going rate because others have tried to push the limit and you max out at the lower end. Unless of course you work over 70-80/hrs a week, which would be the reality for the 300K med doc.

 

[bkpa2med]

I know quite a few IM's who see 4 patients/hr. Even my FP sees 4/hr.

 

[abefromann]

ok. but their salaries aren't what you think they are. primary care is like 125-150 for most docs.

 

[core0]

I know quite a few IM's who see 4 patients/hr. Even my FP sees 4/hr.

The four patients an hour isn't the problem. The problem is thinking your going to get $90 per patient.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Blade28]

Take for instance a private practice of an IM Doc.

One who sees 4 pt's/hour and sees them for 8hrs/day and works 5 days/wk, 48 weeks out of the year, at a ~$90/office visit, will generate:

That's not quite how it works.

As core0 pointed out, there's no way your reimbursement is going to be that high.

 

[Taurus]

There are so many loan repayment programs for primary care docs out there. Also, you can't compare earnings of a private practice doc to a PA.

Salaries are for suckers😆

Take for instance a private practice of an IM Doc.

One who sees 4 pt's/hour and sees them for 8hrs/day and works 5 days/wk, 48 weeks out of the year, at a ~$90/office visit, will generate:

$691,200 per year! Now, conservatively speaking, subtract 60% for overheads.

The physician is left with $276,480.😍

Lol. So naive about the true economics of medicine. 3rd year will be an eye-opening experience for you. By then, it's too late to switch to another field.

 

[premed85]

a GP is a family practitioner arent they?...how do they only have to go through one yr residency?

 

[TRAMD]

There are so many loan repayment programs for primary care docs out there. Also, you can't compare earnings of a private practice doc to a PA.

Salaries are for suckers😆

Take for instance a private practice of an IM Doc.

One who sees 4 pt's/hour and sees them for 8hrs/day and works 5 days/wk, 48 weeks out of the year, at a ~$90/office visit, will generate:

$691,200 per year! Now, conservatively speaking, subtract 60% for overheads.

The physician is left with $276,480.😍

Most office visits don't pay that well. Most docs will work more than 8 hours a day if they see 32 patients in clinic every day.

 

[TRAMD]

a GP is a family practitioner arent they?...how do they only have to go through one yr residency?

They just do. Not every state licenses GPs. Mine doesn't.

 

[DrMojorisin]

To summarize whats been gleaned and add a few points:

An analysis was performed in this thread which indicated that Physician lifetime asset growth may be expected to overtake PA lifetime asset growth by approximately 15 years after the beginning of professional training.

It was pointed out that the physician will have to work substantially more hours during this period, and will be living a substantially lower quality of life (less income available). Thus, even at 15 years the PA has made a substantially better decision, economically speaking.

It should also be pointed out that physician salaries are expected to decline moreso than PA salaries. Also, future dollars have less value than current dollars due to the effects of compounding interest and inflation. Thus, it will likely take substantially longer than the 15 year predicted payback period to break even.

My take: Any potential economic advantages of becoming a physician would be attained in such a distant future that it would not be worth the reduced quality of life from ages 20-40. However, if one were to plan on reaching the upper end of economic achievement in medicine (e.g plastic surgeon), a economy-based analysis would likely support that. The primary advantage of medicine for the average physician is NOT economics, but rather prestige/authority related.

 

[RockfordWF]

a GP is a family practitioner arent they?...how do they only have to go through one yr residency?

GP is no longer an acceptable means of practicing medicine for new graduates. It only still exists because of those who graduated medical school prior to the requirement of a residency. You are now required a minimum of a 3 year residency (i.e. in family practice.)

 

[RockfordWF]

To summarize whats been gleaned and add a few points:

An analysis was performed in this thread which indicated that Physician lifetime asset growth may be expected to overtake PA lifetime asset growth by approximately 15 years after the beginning of professional training.

It was pointed out that the physician will have to work substantially more hours during this period, and will be living a substantially lower quality of life (less income available). Thus, even at 15 years the PA has made a substantially better decision, economically speaking.

It should also be pointed out that physician salaries are expected to decline moreso than PA salaries. Also, future dollars have less value than current dollars due to the effects of compounding interest and inflation. Thus, it will likely take substantially longer than the 15 year predicted payback period to break even.

My take: Any potential economic advantages of becoming a physician would be attained in such a distant future that it would not be worth the reduced quality of life from ages 20-40. However, if one were to plan on reaching the upper end of economic achievement in medicine (e.g plastic surgeon), a economy-based analysis would likely support that. The primary advantage of medicine for the average physician is NOT economics, but rather prestige/authority related.

If you are in a higher paying specialty, I'm not sure you would have a "reduced quality of life" in your 30's. Especially NOT reduced below that of a PA. I'm also not sure where you would have to work substantially more hours. Where is your evidence for this? It really depends on your specialty.

 

[DrMojorisin]

I was trying to allude to that and I agree with you completely. A few select specialties work 40-50 hours/week during residency and/or lead to exceptionally lucrative careers. As a rule, these specialties are highly competitive, but matching into one would clearly shift the economic analysis markedly towards choosing medicine over PA.

My advice based on this:

If you are hardcore enough to finish in the upper 1/3 of medical students then go to medical school

If you know you don't have the intensity and drive to compete and finish near the top of class with talented,hardworking students, go to PA school (dentistry would be better IMO, though)

If in the middle, choose based on balance of your needs for respect/future wealth and immediate cashflow (family requirements).


I know this is oversimplified but I don't feel like writing a full length report analyzing all the potential factors that should be weighed in the decision.

 

[katana]

I'll be starting PA school next fall and, I have to say, I'm pretty disheartened by some of what's said in this forum. The debate is probably dead by now, but maybe someone will stumble on it in a google search like I did. Here are some thoughts for anyone who cares:

1. If you're deciding between Med School and PA school, just do what you want to do!! If you're as torn over the money debate as some of the people here are, then maybe you shouldn't enter medicine at all. Your potential future patients will thank you for it! I'm taking a pay cut to become a PA and my lust for prestige went out the door years ago. In the end, being happy and doing what you love is important. I'll be leaving a job I love to fulfill a dream... either way I win. Also, as a sobering matter of perspective... my friend sells calculators on EBAY and makes more money than anyone on this forum.

2. Don't forget that the PA profession was started more than 40 years ago by a Physician who believed very strongly in providing quality medical care to meet the needs of the medically underserved. This mission is still very much alive in the top-ranked PA schools and, as far as I can tell, the need is not decreasing. PAs are meeting these needs across the country and will continue to do so. There's plenty of support in the medical community and Congress has indicated their support as well.

3. Does anybody really doubt that med school is harder than PA school? Why the need to keep restating it? The fact of the matter is that a PA candidate at a top school could probably have their pick of competitive med schools to go to as well. Who cares?? All the PA candidates I ran into at the interviews were very academically accomplished and confident with what they want in a career and in life. Again, be confident. Do what you want to do. Don't go to med school to prove to others that you can do it. If you want to go, do it for yourself. Its quite an achievement... nobody doubts that. But people are never as impressed with things as you'd think. Having MD, DO (or PA-C for that matter) after your name isn't that unique anymore. If you doubt that, check the yellow pages.

4. Family is important. Its great to have prestige, but there's a lot of messed up kids with awfully prestigious parents!! In the end, your legacy is passed to your children. Pick a career that realistically fits your lifestyle and family goals. If that's being an MD, great. If its being a PA-C, then that's fine too. Again, don't do it just for yourself if you're planning on having children who like you.

5. I have respect for anyone who cares for others in any capacity, whether its changing bed pans or performing brain surgery... so long as they do it for the right reasons.

6. Is any doctor really a top dog? Isn't there always a bigger dog? A better doctor? Can't a patient always get a second opinion? Don't kid yourself.... everyone has a boss. If you think you don't, you're probably too important to be having silly debates on an internet forum.

 

[Blade28]

Also, as a sobering matter of perspective... my friend sells calculators on EBAY and makes more money than anyone on this forum.

You sure? We have quite a few successful attendings here.

Not saying that money's everything, but some SDN users do quite well for themselves.

 

[katana]

Sorry about that Blade... looks like you may have missed the point. Obviously I have no idea what your salary is and, quite frankly, couldn't care less. (I'm sure it's nothing to sneeze at!) Same goes for prestige. The point was for people to think beyond having to scope out the next 20 years of life to see how much money they're going to make in choosing between being a PA and an MD. That's a shallow approach to picking between two very noble professions that people get into for a variety of different reasons. Both offer a very comfortable living. And, yeah, its crazy isn't it? Some people on Ebay actually can and do make more money than doctors... even very successful attendings!! You'd be pretty surprised.

 

[abefromann]

Yo,

I'll probably be doing dermatology and I chose it not because it's the most interesting field in medicine (however, it's more interesting than people think), but because I know how important it is to have other interests. Medicine can't satisfy all of your needs, and though you'll get more value out of practicing general surgery or ob/gyn, the time spent at work is just way too much. Sorry to the ob/gyns and general surgeons. Your work is great, but it's not for me. I like hanging out with non-medical people too much.

If you like being relatively free and don't have a crapload of pride at stake, PA is a great career with excellent dynamism. I know that I'll be hiring a lot of them to help with my practice.

Respect.

 

[Blade28]

Sorry about that Blade... looks like you may have missed the point. Obviously I have no idea what your salary is and, quite frankly, couldn't care less. (I'm sure it's nothing to sneeze at!) Same goes for prestige. The point was for people to think beyond having to scope out the next 20 years of life to see how much money they're going to make in choosing between being a PA and an MD. That's a shallow approach to picking between two very noble professions that people get into for a variety of different reasons. Both offer a very comfortable living.

I completely agree with this. 👍

 

[VFTW]

I currently work on the floors with a PA who is debating whether to go to medical school because she wants to be able to achieve the "highest level" of training and autonomy as opposed to always being, in her words, "at a resident level." As a med student working with her, I am constantly impressed by the depth of her knowledge, the ease with which she navigates between the MD's and RN's due to both sides feeling like she is kinda like "one of them," the respect she garners from physicians and patients alike, and the great hours she works (compared to me anyway! haha) I have told her that if I were in her position, I would stay right where I was. True, I am pursuing the MD and that is the right decision for me, but it is entirely possible to be a PA who manages patient care, has the respect of patients and physicians alike, and is extremely knowledgeable/an expert in her field. Just something to consider.