paid for productivity vs. hourly pay

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Tori's dad

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Messages
159
Reaction score
0
Thoughts on which is better? I check out a web site for physician recruiters and some of the jobs really play up the $150/hr. wage + benefits jobs. I am just curious to know the pros and cons of each.
 
Ultimately everyone gets "paid for productivity." Any group of physicians gets paid based on the amount of money they bring in, ie. their productivity. Some groups get subsidies from hospitals, universities or some public health funds but this still tends to be less than their collections from their billing. How they divide up this money is the real crux of the "fee for service" vs. pure hourly divide.

In a fee for service or productivity model you get paid based on the work you do. If you see and bill more patients you get more money. If you don't do much you don't make much. The pros of this are that you get paid for working hard, you don't subsidize the guys who loaf, docs have an incentive to see patients quickly and not sign out tons of charts. The cons are that guys who are very thorough but slower can lose on this system and that if you have a slow shift you might as well have stayed home.

The pro for straight hourly is that you don't have to care about volume, you just do your time. The cons are that docs tend to let stuff wait forever in the rack, there's no disincentive to signing lots of stuff out. In the hourly model the effecient guys subsidize the slow guys.
 
Productivity is better for everyone. It's better for patient care, as they get seen faster, and don't get signed out. It's better for us, because typically productivity-based pay is higher, provided that you are a hard worker.

Salaried pay = socialism
 
Should a new graduating resident work in a large scale incentive based model or should we at first seek jobs that are base salary guaranteed?

As a resident I know how many pts per hour I'm seeing, but I'm unsure of the total RVUs I'm producing based on my chart diagnosis/procedures/and thoroughness of documentation. Would it be worthwhile to take elective time and code and bill my own charts to see what I'm putting out?
 
Last edited:
Should a new graduating resident work in a large scale incentive based model or should we at first seek jobs that are base salary guaranteed?

As a resident I know how many pts per hour I'm seeing, but I'm unsure of the total RVUs I'm producing based on my chart diagnosis/procedures/and thoroughness of documentation. Would it be worthwhile to take elective time and code and bill my own charts to see what I'm putting out?

I'm on salary for a set period and then it goes to productivity-based pay. During the salary period I get data on my RVU/hour and patients/hour which is extremely useful. Many democratic groups use this setup for new hires.
 
Should a new graduating resident work in a large scale incentive based model or should we at first seek jobs that are base salary guaranteed?

As a resident I know how many pts per hour I'm seeing, but I'm unsure of the total RVUs I'm producing based on my chart diagnosis/procedures/and thoroughness of documentation. Would it be worthwhile to take elective time and code and bill my own charts to see what I'm putting out?

As is usually the case. I mostly agree with Doc B. and the general. But remember that productivity comes up with a cost, particularly for new graduates who are usually a bit slower than their more experienced colleagues. Don't let the money incentivize you to work faster than you should nor to do unnecessary procedures.
 
As is usually the case. I mostly agree with Doc B. and the general. But remember that productivity comes up with a cost, particularly for new graduates who are usually a bit slower than their more experienced colleagues. Don't let the money incentivize you to work faster than you should nor to do unnecessary procedures.

BKN, I also work part time for a group in South TX. Those guys are paid hourly, not by RVU. I can definitely see a difference in their work-ethic versus my Vegas group. The second I walk into my shift these guys sign out patients and leave. They tend to leave a lot of sign-outs, and I hear constant complaining from the nurses about how the other attendings are "slow".
 
Should a new graduating resident work in a large scale incentive based model or should we at first seek jobs that are base salary guaranteed?

As a resident I know how many pts per hour I'm seeing, but I'm unsure of the total RVUs I'm producing based on my chart diagnosis/procedures/and thoroughness of documentation. Would it be worthwhile to take elective time and code and bill my own charts to see what I'm putting out?

BKN's point is dead on and well taken. I would not suggest getting too bogged down in your productivity during residency. This is for several reasons:

-Residency is to learn the medicine. We recently had a thread on how hard the first year out is. You will want to have spent more time on being comfortable in tight spots and making appropriate dispositions than on RVUs.
-Coding and billing your own charts will probably teach you way more than you need to know about coding and billing. Unless you wind up working for a group that does its own coding and billing which is getting more and more rare you will have wasted a lot of time.
-This is probably the most important reason - The things that make a doc productive in terms of RVUs varys from practice to practice. For some groups it's all about documenting effectively and using whatever charting they use to its maximum effectiveness (ie. T-sheets). For others it's all about volume (for example high volume, low acuity EDs make their money on volume rather than documentation of stuff like critical care time).

I say know about the very basics of RVUs and productivity (like the fact that they exist) during your residency and then learn how to be "productive" once you have your job.

As for what to look for fresh out I've seen new EPs be successful in both types of situations. It's like the match... it's more about fit than generalizations. If you like a place that's hourly go for it and remember that the rule has been for volumes to increase over the last several years.
 
Top