Pairing CA-1s with CRNAs???

[Lizard1]

If they are "just as valuable" as an attending then you have lost your case against them getting independence. After all if you are going ot argue they are just as good as an attending, then how in good conscience can you not allow CRNAs the same job duties as an attending?

that sentence should end and read as : an experienced anesthetist can be just as valuable as an attending for a green CA-1 whose trying to learn how physically to set a vent, where on the screen you can adjust the BP cuff time intervals, where additional pulse ox probes are located, how to call the anesthesia tech overhead, where to get second OR sheet records, where to get empty bottles to drain the foley, who to call for report at the end of the case, etc... the basic stuff that anybody who's been there can teach.

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[gaspasser2004]

Anyway, the bottom line is this. Can a totally green CA-1 learn something from an experienced CRNA? Of course. Is it a good idea to go to a program that can't muster up experienced attendings to show CA-1s the ropes? Don't think so. If they can't do that, they're probably deficient in some other categories too. Why settle?

Man, this thread turned into MD vs CRNA really fast. Might be a new record.

I totally agree. The above post sums up the situation the best...

 

[underdog27]

As a CRNA, I come to this board to read the invaluable posts which have CLINICAL relevance. I could care less about the political b u l l s h i t that goes on here, and would rather not take part in it. However, when I was in training I rotated to many different facilities. In particular, my last rotation was at a facility which also had an anesthesia residency. I was there when the new CA-1's started, and on occasion was paired with some in a room. I did not see this as a SUPERVISORY role, rather a chance to offer any knowledge I might have to help them along (which included more than how to adjust the monitor). Most of the residents asked many questions and seemed grateful for my input. For the one or two that wanted no input from me, that was fine also. All I am saying is that as a brand new CA-1, I think all knowledge banks should be tapped wheter it be a CRNA, 2nd year, 3rd year, attending, anestheisa tech. If somebody has something valuable to offer, I for one am not too proud to listen, regardless of their title.

 

[nitecap]

As a CRNA, I come to this board to read the invaluable posts which have CLINICAL relevance. I could care less about the political b u l l s h i t that goes on here, and would rather not take part in it. However, when I was in training I rotated to many different facilities. In particular, my last rotation was at a facility which also had an anesthesia residency. I was there when the new CA-1's started, and on occasion was paired with some in a room. I did not see this as a SUPERVISORY role, rather a chance to offer any knowledge I might have to help them along (which included more than how to adjust the monitor). Most of the residents asked many questions and seemed grateful for my input. For the one or two that wanted no input from me, that was fine also. All I am saying is that as a brand new CA-1, I think all knowledge banks should be tapped wheter it be a CRNA, 2nd year, 3rd year, attending, anestheisa tech. If somebody has something valuable to offer, I for one am not too proud to listen, regardless of their title.

Thank you, well put. thats how it should be.

Sometimes when you are green and dont know your own a s s ho le from the pts oral apature you need people to teach, guide, help you no matter who it is. Once you become the master that you desire to be when your training is complete than you return the favor.

This whole thing is not even about an experience issue a pt safetey issue, a learing issue. Its all about the ego's here plain and simple. I guess I will never understand what its like to be a MD and CA-1 and having a senior SRNA run circles around you in the OR. resentment, jealousy maybe, no I have it inferiorority and to a nurse at that. I find the residents that get along with eveyone, learn as much as possible, give other people in the hospital whether it be janitors, food service peeps nurses a chance to get to know them. Theses guys are the sucessful ones, these guys get offered jobs when done, these guys get invited to functions, these guys have all the hoes in the hospital sweating them. Its the ones like most of you on this very board that havnt yet reached that level of social maturity not medical or clinical that really helps a person to suceed. You are no better than the next resident or the next, its your character and human interactions and maturity that seperate you from the rest.

 

[Noyac]

Thank you, well put. thats how it should be.

Sometimes when you are green and dont know your own a s s ho le from the pts oral apature you need people to teach, guide, help you no matter who it is. Once you become the master that you desire to be when your training is complete than you return the favor.

This whole thing is not even about an experience issue a pt safetey issue, a learing issue. Its all about the ego's here plain and simple. I guess I will never understand what its like to be a MD and CA-1 and having a senior SRNA run circles around you in the OR. resentment, jealousy maybe, no I have it inferiorority and to a nurse at that. I find the residents that get along with eveyone, learn as much as possible, give other people in the hospital whether it be janitors, food service peeps nurses a chance to get to know them. Theses guys are the sucessful ones, these guys get offered jobs when done, these guys get invited to functions, these guys have all the hoes in the hospital sweating them. Its the ones like most of you on this very board that havnt yet reached that level of social maturity not medical or clinical that really helps a person to suceed. You are no better than the next resident or the next, its your character and human interactions and maturity that seperate you from the rest.

Nitecap, you are always trying to find a way to take a shot at the Doc's here. All those things that you mentioned above resentment, jealousy, inferiority must be your daily demons. Get over it, man.
Have you ever heard the song "Head Like A Hole" by Nine Inch Nails. Listen to it and when you do think of me and every other Anesthesiologist that you will be working for and under.

 

[nitecap]

Not taking shots at MD's in general. You guys are part of a very respected profession no doubt. I just take shots a cocky, rude, uninformed and ignorant posters hear. Especially residents with big egos. As a coworker, trainee, employee I respect my attendings and residents, but sorry if a resident or medstudent that is my age, half my size, with a 10x's more exhaulted ego than I and a much heavier chip on their shoulder than I and that thinks their shiznit dont stink and they know it all and are better than all. these peeps will get little respect from me and from much of anyone if they dont give it back. So rightfully I will take my shots, just as they will take theirs. Its no biggy, I shake them haters off without even thinking twice and type on. think its those years when I was a debate nerd that come back to me,they are the ones that get all flustered. As far as I can recall I have never taken any shots at you and dont plan on it.

As far as my shots at david27000, well he is just a punching bag for all whether MD, CRNA, SRNA, Hooker, janitor, or toliet scum. This guy, I dont care if he is freaking super MD, he will never get my respect. Wouldnt even waste my spit to loogy into his face if we ever met. Again not taking shots at all MD's, please do not think that. I am very good friends with many many fellows, attendings, residents and med students. But these individuals keep it real and do not try to act like Billy Bad Assses just b/c they think they are important. There is a big difference.

 

[sleepwithme]

i repeat
this is an MD-DO forum, nurses please report to your forum by the coffee machine
whipped cream, extra sugar
ask your mom how sweet i like it

 

[hoop_jumper]

Erased for being tasteless & inappropriate

 

[jetproppilot]

Typical AANA terrorist post. Still havent figured out why crna terrorists are here stirring the pot, on a doctor forum.

 

[toughlife]

It is interesting that they always come here to lurk while none of us goes to theirs. Shows you that they know who the boss is. That's why they keep following docs around.

 

[Cap'nOblivious]

toughlife: some of you guys DO go "over there", and I for one appreciate the opinions on what is mostly one-sided, sometimes ill-informed debate, as well as the clinical expertise. You can be the allnurses.com's nitecap. C'mon, it'll be fun. There's a lot of coffee-getters waiting.

 

[hoop_jumper]

toughlife: some of you guys DO go "over there", and I for one appreciate the opinions on what is mostly one-sided, sometimes ill-informed debate, as well as the clinical expertise. You can be the allnurses.com's nitecap. C'mon, it'll be fun. There's a lot of coffee-getters waiting.

I'll get your coffee as soon as you're done with anascope doc. Or do you need me to turn my head a cough first?

 

[toughlife]

I think part of the problem that anesthesiologists have with CRNAs is that fact that most of the females ones are not that attractive. I don't mind females with attitudes as long as they are hot. It's actually kinda turn on.

Look at female PAs, most of them are hot as hell and every doc I know, for the most part, likes working with them.

So if you want to make strides with us you better start letting in some eye candy into those CRNA schools, then we may be nicer to you all.

 

[hoop_jumper]

I think part of the problem that anesthesiologists have with CRNAs is that fact that most of the females ones are not that attractive. I don't mind females with attitudes as long as they are hot. It's actually kinda turn on.

Look at female PAs, most of them are hot as hell and every doc I know, for the most part, likes working with them.

So if you want to make strides with us you better start letting in some eye candy into those CRNA schools, then we may be nicer to you all.

I think you hit the nail on the head except you could have stopped at females. Since that is obviously the biggest problem you have. The trouble I have with most MDAs is they are rarely more than 5'10" and all suffer from SMS. Then there is the language barrier since they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for them in this country they have to import them from India and Pakistan.

 

[militarymd]

I think you hit the nail on the head except you could have stopped at females. Since that is obviously the biggest problem you have. The trouble I have with most MDAs is they are rarely more than 5'10" and all suffer from SMS. Then there is the language barrier since they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for them in this country they have to import them from India and Pakistan.

What's SMS?

 

[nitecap]

I think part of the problem that anesthesiologists have with CRNAs is that fact that most of the females ones are not that attractive. I don't mind females with attitudes as long as they are hot. It's actually kinda turn on.

Look at female PAs, most of them are hot as hell and every doc I know, for the most part, likes working with them.

So if you want to make strides with us you better start letting in some eye candy into those CRNA schools, then we may be nicer to you all.

I think alot of the hotter RN's that maybe wanted to go to CRNA school were scooped up in the ICU by MD's and are either married to them or at least poppin the cooch with the higher earning MD's. You know how it goes " now I aint saying shes a gold digger, but she aint messing with no broke ni*ga".
Really no sense in them going to school if they can stay at home, raise the kids and spend hubbys jack.

 

[nitecap]

What's SMS?

Small mans syndrome aka napoleanic complex aka big attitude yet small stature.

 

[stephend7799]

I think alot of the hotter RN's that maybe wanted to go to CRNA school were scooped up in the ICU by MD's and are either married to them or at least poppin the cooch with the higher earning MD's. You know how it goes " now I aint saying shes a gold digger, but she aint messing with no broke ni*ga".
Really no sense in them going to school if they can stay at home, raise the kids and spend hubbys jack.

I honestly believe you should be banned.. Instead of spending your energy on this board.. why dont you go to medical school? and after that do a internship and residency and then comment how much you wasted your time and you should have just gone to crna school.. I have forgotten more than you ever have known. Thats why the fact that you think you are equal to a physician before even finishing crna school is astounding to me.. You need some serious instruction boy.

 

[hoop_jumper]

What's SMS?

Short Man Syndrome

 

[hoop_jumper]

I honestly believe you should be banned.. Instead of spending your energy on this board.. why dont you go to medical school? and after that do a internship and residency and then comment how much you wasted your time and you should have just gone to crna school.. I have forgotten more than you ever have known. Thats why the fact that you think you are equal to a physician before even finishing crna school is astounding to me.. You need some serious instruction boy.

Who mentioned equal? Who says anesthesia requires a physician to practice it? I realize you guys are so smart that you don't even require malpractice insurance, and you never make mistakes or never get sued.

 

[nitecap]

I honestly believe you should be banned.. Instead of spending your energy on this board.. why dont you go to medical school? and after that do a internship and residency and then comment how much you wasted your time and you should have just gone to crna school.. I have forgotten more than you ever have known. Thats why the fact that you think you are equal to a physician before even finishing crna school is astounding to me.. You need some serious instruction boy.

damn, didnt think this post deserved that comment. A little cranky arent we. I was merely theorizing maybe why more "hot women" are not crnas. Again no one here ever said or even slightly mentioned the words equal, equality, same training, I am better than you, one is better than the other. You guys are paranoid b/c I have never once mentioned anything of that nature. About the only thing that has even come close to mentioning anything about equal is that a MD and CRNA can do the the same cases many times, patients having equal risks, use the same drugs and still get the same great outcomes. Thats about the only time I have even mentioned equality of any sorts. So get it straight man and quit putting words in my mouth. oh and welcome to the forum.

 

[jetproppilot]

The trouble I have with most MDAs is they are rarely more than 5'10" and all suffer from SMS. Then there is the language barrier since they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for them in this country they have to import them from India and Pakistan.

Whatever you say, Slim.

 

[nitecap]

You have been MIA the last few days hey.

 

[toughlife]

You have been MIA the last few days hey.

are you a brotha?

 

[Buela]

Just want to get some input on this one. I just learned that one of the programs I am considering ranking number 1 pairs CA-1s with either a CRNA or a senior resident for the first month. Before I make too big of a deal about this, can anyone speak to the prevelance of pairing up CA-1s with CRNAs and/or residents in lieu of an attending? How big of a deal do you think this is? Would this make you think twice about training at a program? why?

Thanks!

I think I may know what program you're talking about because I'm a CA-1 that just answered this type of question at an interview lunch. I'm at the University of Colorado. At the beginning of the year, we were all paired with a CRNA or upper level resident with an attending (as always) overseeing us. Depending on your comfort level, you get more independence as the weeks go on until you have your own room. My CRNA had 20 years of experience and taught me a lot.

There's a lot to learn and as a new CA-1 you don't know sh**. No matter how well you did in med school or how many anesthesia rotations you've done, you've got a lot to learn and everyone has a lot to teach you.

At some point, of course, you'll surpass the CRNAs, but not that first month.
Any of the cocky 4th years who think they can't learn from the CRNAs in their first couple months of residency, please feel free not to rank us. I'd rather not have you come here.

 

[toughlife]

I think I may know what program you're talking about because I'm a CA-1 that just answered this type of question at an interview lunch. I'm at the University of Colorado. At the beginning of the year, we were all paired with a CRNA or upper level resident with an attending (as always) overseeing us. Depending on your comfort level, you get more independence as the weeks go on until you have your own room. My CRNA had 20 years of experience and taught me a lot.

There's a lot to learn and as a new CA-1 you don't know sh**. No matter how well you did in med school or how many anesthesia rotations you've done, you've got a lot to learn and everyone has a lot to teach you.

At some point, of course, you'll surpass the CRNAs, but not that first month.
Any of the cocky 4th years who think they can't learn from the CRNAs in their first couple months of residency, please feel free not to rank us. I'd rather not have you come here.

How prestigious is this program anyways?

 

[ThinkFast007]

last time I checked this was called student DOCTOR network.....

doctor....no matter how I twist it, it just doesnt sound like nurse??

 

[OldManDave]

Can we please not bicker quite so much? It is fine to discuss, even debate heatedly, this topic - probably a lot of good info to divulge. But, can we not avoid degrading ourselves to the point of name calling & baseless threats...we are supposed to be medical professionals - providers of anesthesia - & not act like a bunch of 7 year-olds on some elementary school playground.

My InBox is filled with folks complaining about this thread. I really hate to close any threads...I would like to think of people in the aforementioned professions as having the intellectual capacity & maturity to engage in a spirited discussion without it descending to the level of playground antics. However, if that is not the case, I will have to close the thread.

Please prove to me that I am not hearding cats here...play nicely.

Thanks!

 

[hoop_jumper]

last time I checked this was called student DOCTOR network.....

doctor....no matter how I twist it, it just doesnt sound like nurse??

Who do you think actually trains the student doctors?

 

[davvid2700]

Who do you think actually trains the student doctors?

Let me guess, umm.. associate degree nurses who work in the icu. they train student doctors.. Yeah thats the ticket..

 

[Cap'nOblivious]

Typical "hottie" in my nurse anesthesia program.......

 

[jetproppilot]

Can we please not bicker quite so much? It is fine to discuss, even debate heatedly, this topic - probably a lot of good info to divulge. But, can we not avoid degrading ourselves to the point of name calling & baseless threats...we are supposed to be medical professionals - providers of anesthesia - & not act like a bunch of 7 year-olds on some elementary school playground.

My InBox is filled with folks complaining about this thread. I really hate to close any threads...I would like to think of people in the aforementioned professions as having the intellectual capacity & maturity to engage in a spirited discussion without it descending to the level of playground antics. However, if that is not the case, I will have to close the thread.

Please prove to me that I am not hearding cats here...play nicely.

Thanks!

Dear Old Man Dave,

Unfortunately, when these threads pop up they nearly always turn bad. Not too long ago it was conveyed to Venty that the best defense against this was a good offense....i.e. closing the thread promptly, which happened for quite a while, and it worked, which is somewhat unfortunate, but was successful in keeping this forum focused on what I'm sure it was created for: anesthesia clinicians sharing useful anesthesia information.

We have quite a few prolific, knowledgable people who hang out here who lately have not been contributing, and I'm sure the negative turn of events is the culprit. We all enjoy the interactions....but we've been down the controversial-thread-road before, and it never gets anywhere. More importantly, it sends the quality of the anesthesia forum into a nosedive, with quality posters losing interest.

My humble opinion is that the moderators, until these controversial
subjects can be addressed with eloquence, shut down controversial, propaganda filled threads, so this forum can return to concentrating more on exchange of useful information about the anesthesia business.

Nuf said.

 

[Gimlet]

My humble opinion is that the moderators, until these controversial
subjects can be addressed with eloquence, shut down controversial, propaganda filled threads, so this forum can return to concentrating more on exchange of useful information about the anesthesia business.

Nuf said.

I second that humble opinion. The whole forum gets a malignant feel to it when these CRNA vs. MD debates are active, and you can tell that the attitude spills over into other threads. I would welcome at least a little break from these threads...say, for a month or two just close them as soon as they start up. Give everyone time to cool their jets (no pun intended, JPP ).

And yes, I know that I could just ignore these threads, but you must realize the depth of my SDN addiction. I HAVE to read everything!

[Edit: I just saw that the "CRNA Autnomy" thread has been closed. I applaud that. I would love it if this were the last post in this thread.]

 

[nitecap]

I second that humble opinion. The whole forum gets a malignant feel to it when these CRNA vs. MD debates are active, and you can tell that the attitude spills over into other threads. I would welcome at least a little break from these threads...say, for a month or two just close them as soon as they start up. Give everyone time to cool their jets (no pun intended, JPP ).

And yes, I know that I could just ignore these threads, but you must realize the depth of my SDN addiction. I HAVE to read everything!

[Edit: I just saw that the "CRNA Autnomy" thread has been closed. I applaud that. I would love it if this were the last post in this thread.]

Dont see many CRNA peeps starting threads here. Just posting replies to threads that we feel inaccurately portrays the profession. Then people take shots and they are countered and returned. Its no biggy and to be expected. When people post negativity on nurses forums someone from here always defends expectly. No not all but at least 1 or 2. Well I am one of the 1 or 2 that does it here. So you can expect that always. I will simmer down though for now. This forum was actaully pretty chill over the past 1.5 months or so until some started the " what does CRNA supervision entail" about 2 or so wks ago.the negative and unaccurate posts started flying as did my rebutle which undoubtly most of you dont like hearing. You cant run from it though as I dont run from these issues. Its really good actually to know and understand how some people on the other side think and what they know. Its proven in business research that you should know your competitor (if thats what u want to call it) just as well as you know your self. Thats my mission here, learn, learn, learn what ever I can and advocate when ever I can. Consider me chilled though but always expect me to pop up when the bull shiznit start sflying. Peace out.

 

[Gimlet]

Dont see many CRNA peeps starting threads here. Just posting replies to threads that we feel inaccurately portrays the profession. Then people take shots and they are countered and returned. Its no biggy and to be expected. When people post negativity on nurses forums someone from here always defends expectly. No not all but at least 1 or 2. Well I am one of the 1 or 2 that does it here. So you can expect that always. I will simmer down though for now. This forum was actaully pretty chill over the past 1.5 months or so until some started the " what does CRNA supervision entail" about 2 or so wks ago.the negative and unaccurate posts started flying as did my rebutle which undoubtly most of you dont like hearing. You cant run from it though as I dont run from these issues. Its really good actually to know and understand how some people on the other side think and what they know. Its proven in business research that you should know your competitor (if thats what u want to call it) just as well as you know your self. Thats my mission here, learn, learn, learn what ever I can and advocate when ever I can. Consider me chilled though but always expect me to pop up when the bull shiznit start sflying. Peace out.

Nitecap, for what it's worth there are a few MD students that contribute to the malignancy of this board with their childish retorts and endless bickering way more than you do . I never said that CRNA's are starting threads, and I don't have a problem with you posting to defend some of the ridiculous things people say about CRNAs on here. It's when people start making snide comments back to each other that things get out of hand.

I think most of these ridiculous threads get started by naive allopathic students asking a question when a simple search would have given them a thousand pages worth of arguments that show that there is no possible end to the debate.

 

[OldManDave]

Guys, y'all make a very salient argument that is all too fortunately on the money. I am shutting this puppy down. Too bad - there were some valuable exchanges of info, if you dug deeply enough...

Children will be children...too bad that they are also doing anesthesia!