Panicking about debt

[softball2344]

Is anyone else who is taking on a lot of loans constantly worried that physician compensation will be cut and that we'll be financially f***ed forever?

I'm from CA and like many others wasn't able to get into my state school I went to a state school for undergrad so luckily don't have much loans from that, but now I'm stuck at a private school and after interest will be >300k in debt after I graduate. I have done extensive calculations on how much I will be able to pay during residency to keep the loans from exploding and how much I will pay the first few years as an attending to make it more manageable the rest of my life, but I'm still scared and spend a great deal of my time obsessing over this.

Any tips on how to deal? Friends/ family don't help, they are also just as scared for me as I am..

edit: was a good person and in favor of universal health care but now I'm kinda just hoping things will stay the same...

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[DBV]

It's much easier if you don't think about it

 

[Doctor_Honey_Bear]

You should obviously limit your living expenses. Look in to refinancing your loans at the beginning of residency or after residency to cut interest. There are several companies that do this. Consider PSLF, military, rural hospitals for paying off loans.

 

[PatsyStone]

Is anyone else who is taking on a lot of loans constantly worried that physician compensation will be cut and that we'll be financially f***ed forever?

I'm from CA and like many others wasn't able to get into my state school I went to a state school for undergrad so luckily don't have much loans from that, but now I'm stuck at a private school and after interest will be >300k in debt after I graduate. I have done extensive calculations on how much I will be able to pay during residency to keep the loans from exploding and how much I will pay the first few years as an attending to make it more manageable the rest of my life, but I'm still scared and spend a great deal of my time obsessing over this.

Any tips on how to deal? Friends/ family don't help, they are also just as scared for me as I am..

edit: was a good person and in favor of universal health care but now I'm kinda just hoping things will stay the same...

It’s just as easy to fall in love with a specialty that pays well as one that doesn’t.

 

[softball2344]

It’s just as easy to fall in love with a specialty that pays well as one that doesn’t.

That's what I initially planned but they all require more years of low-pay training so I'm wondering if it worth it or if it is better to just start paying off the debt earlier

 

[mistafab]

As a lowly M2 - I say that it is a bit worrisome to think about the debt, however I wouldn’t let it creep into your specialty decision making process. Working 10 years in something you love to pay off your debt is a lot less work than 7 or 8 years in something you dont really like.

 

[W19]

EM... 3yrs residency.... 350-400k STAT

 

[Osteoth]

EM... 3yrs residency.... 350-400k STAT

Only bad thing is you have to be willing to be treated like a commodity by hospitals & big contract groups. Also nights suck...

 

[Stagg737]

Is anyone else who is taking on a lot of loans constantly worried that physician compensation will be cut and that we'll be financially f***ed forever?

I'm from CA and like many others wasn't able to get into my state school I went to a state school for undergrad so luckily don't have much loans from that, but now I'm stuck at a private school and after interest will be >300k in debt after I graduate. I have done extensive calculations on how much I will be able to pay during residency to keep the loans from exploding and how much I will pay the first few years as an attending to make it more manageable the rest of my life, but I'm still scared and spend a great deal of my time obsessing over this.

Any tips on how to deal? Friends/ family don't help, they are also just as scared for me as I am..

edit: was a good person and in favor of universal health care but now I'm kinda just hoping things will stay the same...

No. Even if the gov somehow managed to be functional long enough to completely transform healthcare, compensation will not be slashed to the point that you can't pay back debt anytime soon. Even if you come out with 400k, get educated on finances and live like a resident for 5 years, and you'll still be fine.

Regardless, I don't see healthcare changing that dramatically anytime soon without the entire system collapsing. So chill and be afraid of the crap that should actually scare you right now, like Step 1.

 

[zero0]

EM... 3yrs residency.... 350-400k STAT

From what I hear the EM gravy train is slowly screeching to a halt, which sucks cuz afaik everyone who goes into that specialty does it for the $$$.

 

[68PGunner]

Only bad thing is you have to be willing to be treated like a commodity by hospitals & big contract groups. Also nights suck...

AAMC Standardized Video Interview Frequently Asked Questions

Or the disrespectful computer interview in which a computer will deem you crazy for twitching your face the wrong way.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

From what I hear the EM gravy train is slowly screeching to a halt, which sucks cuz afaik everyone who goes into that specialty does it for the $$$.

Agreed. I joined SDN not even 2 years ago and my first few posts were in the EM forum asking about residency expansion and potential impact on the EM labor market and compensation. I was assured that demand for EPs is so crazy and there is such a huge shortage that there was nothing to worry about except being asked to work more shifts (and make more money) than you wanted to!

Not even 2 years later and some of the same docs who told me that are now saying they are noticing a marked tightening in the labor market and the heady locums hourly rates are starting to be harder to come by. Meanwhile, the impact of existing residency expansion is only beginning to work its way through the supply pipeline, and the rate of new expansion is only accelerating. Furthermore, the job market is completely dominated by a handful of CMGs and my bet is that in the coming years the number of unique employers will shrink even further through mergers, meaning entire regions will become effectively monopolized by a single employer. Combine the two trends and you can paint the picture yourself.

It really is a shame because EM was a match made in heaven for what I wanted out of medicine and lifestyle, and I decided to go to medical school in some part because of the opportunity to make decent of money by working hard but not often that EM seemed to offer.

To get back to OP's larger point, yeah I am really concerned too. Not because of the debt, which frankly I will just not pay back if my earning power as an attending declines past a certain threshold, but because of the wasted years that I could have spent enjoying my life and investing into other, potentially more fruitful endeavors. As OP alluded to, the conundrum is that the "safest" specialties which are basically the surgical subspecialties are safer from the idiosyncracies of medicine (midlevels, residency expansion, corporate medicine) but are riskier from a time perspective. Sure, you'll be safe from midlevels and oversupply if you do a 7 year neurosurgery residency vs a 3 year IM residency, but then is that worth the risk of delaying attending pay for another 4 years, during which we could easily get socialized healthcare, huge reimbursement cuts due to unfunded liabilities (social security and medicare) coming due, etc.

 

[softball2344]

To get back to OP's larger point, yeah I am really concerned too. Not because of the debt, which frankly I will just not pay back if my earning power as an attending declines past a certain threshold, but because of the wasted years that I could have spent enjoying my life and investing into other, potentially more fruitful endeavors. As OP alluded to, the conundrum is that the "safest" specialties which are basically the surgical subspecialties are safer from the idiosyncracies of medicine (midlevels, residency expansion, corporate medicine) but are riskier from a time perspective. Sure, you'll be safe from midlevels and oversupply if you do a 7 year neurosurgery residency vs a 3 year IM residency, but then is that worth the risk of delaying attending pay for another 4 years, during which we could easily get socialized healthcare, huge reimbursement cuts due to unfunded liabilities (social security and medicare) coming due, etc.

lol if only they wouldn't come hunt us down

 

[softball2344]

From what I hear the EM gravy train is slowly screeching to a halt, which sucks cuz afaik everyone who goes into that specialty does it for the $$$.

seriously literally every other person in my class wants to do EM for this reason

 

[Waldeinsamkeit]

I keep freaking out about this same issue. I like the idea of a single-payer program, but everytime I hear doctors crow about it, it blows my mind. I would rather not fall on my sword after spending years in school and more still to come in residency. My main fear is that I am going to graduate with United States medical school debt, and get paid Canadian wages. And then I guess just quit because **** life at that point.

Single-payer healthcare isn't what the doctor ordered
Doctors favor single payer, despite likely income hit | FierceHealthcare
The Impact of Single-Payer Health Care on Physician Income in Canada, 1850–2005

 

[softball2344]

I keep freaking out about this same issue. I like the idea of a single-payer program, but everytime I hear doctors crow about it, it blows my mind. I would rather not fall on my sword after spending years in school and more still to come in residency. My main fear is that I am going to graduate with United States medical school debt, and get paid Canadian wages. And then I guess just quit because **** life at that point.

Single-payer healthcare isn't what the doctor ordered
Doctors favor single payer, despite likely income hit | FierceHealthcare
The Impact of Single-Payer Health Care on Physician Income in Canada, 1850–2005

In all these other countries they have to pay such minimal tuition that it's like whatever you won't be that rich get over it but for most US graduates (even from public schools) it's like I'd have to go jump off a bridge since my financial future would be gone

The worst part is nobody cares look at what's happened with law, pharmacy, dentistry, etc

 

[ArteryStudyPainting]

So this is my mindset (as so helped by the Georgetown FA representative):

This isn't the same as undergraduate, where Hope or Agnew wanted to major in something they loved, then realized there's no money to be made after the fact. History, etc. They're stuck in their situation and it's going to be hard to recover.

You, are very lucrative with the path you're on, no matter what you do. You have the ability to pay off your loans, interest, and more, provided you have a solid plan. You're not Hope or Agnew who decided they're good to go paying off their $150,000 debts by being an artist (not to say they can't, but it's arguably a crapshoot).

Thus, I think, "Eh. It'll suck, but we're good."

And about physician compensation, I don't think we're in trouble. I think the public is more comfortable with physicians, as they're, in the public eye, the place where the buck stops and care is better. Everyone says, let me talk to the doctor. Never, let me talk to the DNP.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

 

[Save a life]

Yeah, I’ve been taking out loans and I’m a little worried but all the residents and attending’s I’ve talked to say it’s doable to pay the loans back. Most people say live on your residents salary for 5 years or so. If you do the math, it adds up to enough to get out of debt, especially if you do a surgical specialty.

There are also numerous programs to “pay off” your debt in return for a service commitment. The US armed forces, Public Health Service, and many hospitals will do this if you sign a contract.

 

[zero0]

seriously literally every other person in my class wants to do EM for this reason

That's funny cuz every other person at my school wants to do ortho or EM, despite the two fields having literally nothing in common. Couldn't be more transparent.

 

[ortnakas]

It's much easier if you don't think about it

This. No Nelnet, I don't want to see my loan balance, why in the name of all that's holy would I want to do that?

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

I keep freaking out about this same issue. I like the idea of a single-payer program, but everytime I hear doctors crow about it, it blows my mind. I would rather not fall on my sword after spending years in school and more still to come in residency. My main fear is that I am going to graduate with United States medical school debt, and get paid Canadian wages. And then I guess just quit because **** life at that point.

Single-payer healthcare isn't what the doctor ordered
Doctors favor single payer, despite likely income hit | FierceHealthcare
The Impact of Single-Payer Health Care on Physician Income in Canada, 1850–2005

You do realize Canadian Drs in some areas (primary care and some specialties) make more than American Drs right? And for the fields where they make less, the gap isn't that big and is often accompanied by much lower overhead rates. Plus most of them are incorporated and distribute dividends to family members which means their effective income tax is quite low. They aren't salaried.
Now if you're a surgeon or procedure heavy specialist, USA is the place to be no doubt. If you're in the office mostly, Canada is hands down better financially.

 

[softball2344]

You do realize Canadian Drs in some areas (primary care and some specialties) make more than American Drs right? And for the fields where they make less, the gap isn't that big and is often accompanied by much lower overhead rates. Plus most of them are incorporated and distribute dividends to family members which means their effective income tax is quite low. They aren't salaried.
Now if you're a surgeon or procedure heavy specialist, USA is the place to be no doubt. If you're in the office mostly, Canada is hands down better financially.

Don't they have more practice costs that effectively lower their salaries below the US though? At least that's what a quick google search tells me..

 

[Mad Jack]

Only bad thing is you have to be willing to be treated like a commodity by hospitals & big contract groups. Also nights suck...

And liability...

 

[Mad Jack]

You do realize Canadian Drs in some areas (primary care and some specialties) make more than American Drs right? And for the fields where they make less, the gap isn't that big and is often accompanied by much lower overhead rates. Plus most of them are incorporated and distribute dividends to family members which means their effective income tax is quite low. They aren't salaried.
Now if you're a surgeon or procedure heavy specialist, USA is the place to be no doubt. If you're in the office mostly, Canada is hands down better financially.

If you look at taxes and exchange rates, American physicians still come out ahead with a premium of 30-60% or more, depending on specialty. I did the breakdown in another thread a couple of years back.

 

[DrVader]

In all these other countries they have to pay such minimal tuition that it's like whatever you won't be that rich get over it but for most US graduates (even from public schools) it's like I'd have to go jump off a bridge since my financial future would be gone

The worst part is nobody cares look at what's happened with law, pharmacy, dentistry, etc

I dropped out of pharmacy school with 200k in debt and just a bachelors degree. The golden days of medicine are long over. There is good money in developing drugs and medical devices tho.

 

[softball2344]

I dropped out of pharmacy school with 200k in debt and just a bachelors degree. The golden days of medicine are long over. There is good money in developing drugs and medical devices tho.

Can I ask how?

 

[libertyyne]

Is anyone else who is taking on a lot of loans constantly worried that physician compensation will be cut and that we'll be financially f***ed forever?

I'm from CA and like many others wasn't able to get into my state school I went to a state school for undergrad so luckily don't have much loans from that, but now I'm stuck at a private school and after interest will be >300k in debt after I graduate. I have done extensive calculations on how much I will be able to pay during residency to keep the loans from exploding and how much I will pay the first few years as an attending to make it more manageable the rest of my life, but I'm still scared and spend a great deal of my time obsessing over this.

Any tips on how to deal? Friends/ family don't help, they are also just as scared for me as I am..

edit: was a good person and in favor of universal health care but now I'm kinda just hoping things will stay the same...

Why worry about something you have zero control over?
There are a lot of hypotheticals that would have to happen before you fears would come true.

1. Universal healthcare would have to get passsed.
2. Physician salary would have to be reduced.
3. Outstanding Physician student debt would have to remain and not be removed as part of 1 or 2.
4. It would have to happen as soon as you graduate residency to have the maximum negative impact.
5.PSLF would have to go away .
6. Income based repayment would have to go away.


Those are a lot of if's. Do you also worry about ebola outbreaks in the midwest and astroids hitting earth?

There is a risk of all those things happening in your lifetime, there is also a risk that physican reimbursement continues to go up. You have to decide what you are comfortable with. As mentioned above Canada seems to pay its physicians well even with universal healthcare.

 

[libertyyne]

I dropped out of pharmacy school with 200k in debt and just a bachelors degree. The golden days of medicine are long over. There is good money in developing drugs and medical devices tho.

So you dropped out of a program with almost certainty that you would be able to make twice the median salary of the country . And how is that related to the golden age of medicine? Call me old fashioned, but I remain skeptical on your credentials to make such a call considering the decision you made to forgo an all but certain outcome. Pharmacy like dentistry is a sure way to become a millionaire in one's old age.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

At least you’re not one of the recent grads from some private dental schools staring down $500,000+ in loans. On top of that, many dental residencies charge tuition, sometimes as much as $200,000. There are more than a few orthodontists out there with $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

 

[softball2344]

At least you’re not one of the recent grads from private dental schools staring down $500,000+ in loans. On top of that, many dental residencies charge tuition, sometimes as much as $200,000. There are more than a few orthodontists out there with $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

Omg do dentists even make a lot? Looked into it and even at state schools the tuition is higher than med school.

What a f**ked up country we live in

 

[softball2344]

So you dropped out of a program with almost certainty that you would be able to make twice the median salary of the country . And how is that related to the golden age of medicine? Call me old fashioned, but I remain skeptical on your credentials to make such a call considering the decision you made to forgo an all but certain outcome. Pharmacy like dentistry is a sure way to become a millionaire in one's old age.

Doesn’t pharmacy make like $150k max? With those loans I’d hardly expect to end up a millionaire

 

[Stagg737]

Omg do dentists even make a lot? Looked into it and even at state schools the tuition is higher than med school.

What a f**ked up country we live in

Depends. General dentistry does fine as long as you don't have too much debt (mid-100's). Surgical specialist can make a ton, and if you know how to manage a practice and open multiple practices you can make bank. Like medicine, those who carve out niches or are business savvy can do exceedingly well. Generalists who are just along for the ride are going to struggle a bit.

 

[softball2344]

Depends. General dentistry does fine as long as you don't have too much debt (mid-100's). Surgical specialist can make a ton, and if you know how to manage a practice and open multiple practices you can make bank. Like medicine, those who carve out niches or are business savvy can do exceedingly well. Generalists who are just along for the ride are going to struggle a bit.

But if your state school costs like $50k/ year with tuition plus supplies (see CA) you’re out of luck

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

If you look at taxes and exchange rates, American physicians still come out ahead with a premium of 30-60% or more, depending on specialty. I did the breakdown in another thread a couple of years back.

Not true. You're disregarding the fact that when you're incorporated and pay your spouse/parents/kids 60k each in dividends (and they gift that money back to you) + pay yourself 80-90k in dividends = your total tax paid is far lower. Plus income/dividend taxes aren't too far off most blue states. And there's the overhead factor. 20-25% for most clinics because there's no billings person needed.

I do agree with exchange rates but that's largely redundant because you spend CAD when you live in CAN and spend USD when in USA.

With that said, I'm not that pro-single payer. I'm just saying it IS the better system if you're in primary care or an office based specialty. And it's better for financial reasons.

Don't they have more practice costs that effectively lower their salaries below the US though? At least that's what a quick google search tells me..

Overhead for most family doctors is like 20-25% and sometimes 30% in big cities. So it's much lower than USA. You're also self employed and not being bent over by hospital systems. Very few salaried physicians in Canada.
I wouldn't rely on Google for income information when it comes to medicine. Average family doctor up there does 240k but capitation models make it quite common to make double that.

The single payer downfall is lower compensation for procedures. Though plenty do 400-500k.

 

[libertyyne]

Doesn’t pharmacy make like $150k max? With those loans I’d hardly expect to end up a millionaire

That is with the bare minimum contribution to max out 403b

So after accounting for 40K in retirement accounts roughly
6000 Dollars left per month after taxes 2500 to pay off loans in 8.8 years and you are left with 4k per month to live on for the first 8 years. If you have any financial savy you will be atleast a millionare .

 

[Mad Jack]

Not true. You're disregarding the fact that when you're incorporated and pay your spouse/parents/kids 60k each in dividends (and they gift that money back to you) + pay yourself 80-90k in dividends = your total tax paid is far lower. Plus income/dividend taxes aren't too far off most blue states. And there's the overhead factor. 20-25% for most clinics because there's no billings person needed.

I do agree with exchange rates but that's largely redundant because you spend CAD when you live in CAN and spend USD when in USA.

With that said, I'm not that pro-single payer. I'm just saying it IS the better system if you're in primary care or an office based specialty. And it's better for financial reasons.

Overhead for most family doctors is like 20-25% and sometimes 30% in big cities. So it's much lower than USA. You're also self employed and not being bent over by hospital systems. Very few salaried physicians in Canada.
I wouldn't rely on Google for income information when it comes to medicine. Average family doctor up there does 240k but capitation models make it quite common to make double that.

The single payer downfall is lower compensation for procedures. Though plenty do 400-500k.

Canadian FPs earn $271,000 CDN, the equivalent of $218,171.26 USD pretax. The relative PPP of that income in Canada is roughly 81% of what it would be in the US per OECD PPP data, so you're looking at a lifestyle equivalent of $176,718.72. When comparing different countries, you need to use PPP data to figure out what you're getting so you don't get ****ed

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Canadian FPs earn $271,000 CDN, the equivalent of $218,171.26 USD pretax. The relative PPP of that income in Canada is roughly 81% of what it would be in the US per OECD PPP data, so you're looking at a lifestyle equivalent of $176,718.72. When comparing different countries, you need to use PPP data to figure out what you're getting so you don't get ****ed

You're forgetting that it's much easier to make mid 6 figures in family med in Canada than it is in USA. Also that's a very broad way of looking at things. You can simply live in a cheaper area. The difference is cheaper areas in USA are not often desirable.

Plus there's the whole malpractice thing where insurance is veryy cheap vs. USA and there's no headache/paperwork involved since insurance companies don't exist for most things.

 

[softball2344]

View attachment 228818
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That is with the bare minimum contribution to max out 403b
View attachment 228821

View attachment 228820
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So after accounting for 40K in retirement accounts roughly
6000 Dollars left per month after taxes 2500 to pay off loans in 8.8 years and you are left with 4k per month to live on for the first 8 years. If you have any financial savy you will be atleast a millionare .

Lol I stand corrected

 

[Stagg737]

You're forgetting that it's much easier to make mid 6 figures in family med in Canada than it is in USA. Also that's a very broad way of looking at things. You can simply live in a cheaper area. The difference is cheaper areas in USA are not often desirable.

Plus there's the whole malpractice thing where insurance is veryy cheap vs. USA and there's no headache/paperwork involved since insurance companies don't exist for most things.

Are you talking take home or after taxes/insurance? It's not hard to clear 200k in FM in the U.S. if you don't want to just phone it in and be an employee. If you actually care about finances and understand different business models you can make a lot more than that in the U.S. as well.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Are you talking take home or after taxes/insurance? It's not hard to clear 200k in FM in the U.S. if you don't want to just phone it in and be an employee. If you actually care about finances and understand different business models you can make a lot more than that in the U.S. as well.

After taxes/insurance.
I agree but when almost all Drs are self employed up there and most are employed down here... that tells you something about practicality.

 

[Mass Effect]

Remember this feeling when you graduate residency. Then, get involved, represent your fellow students who don't have their own voice, and work to reduce the cost of medical education, including calling out those responsible for its continued rise and those who profit from it.

 

[Osteoth]

AAMC Standardized Video Interview Frequently Asked Questions

Or the disrespectful computer interview in which a computer will deem you crazy for twitching your face the wrong way.

Ugh yeah I've heard people talk about those but haven't looked too closely. Not excited.

Agreed. I joined SDN not even 2 years ago and my first few posts were in the EM forum asking about residency expansion and potential impact on the EM labor market and compensation. I was assured that demand for EPs is so crazy and there is such a huge shortage that there was nothing to worry about except being asked to work more shifts (and make more money) than you wanted to!

Not even 2 years later and some of the same docs who told me that are now saying they are noticing a marked tightening in the labor market and the heady locums hourly rates are starting to be harder to come by. Meanwhile, the impact of existing residency expansion is only beginning to work its way through the supply pipeline, and the rate of new expansion is only accelerating. Furthermore, the job market is completely dominated by a handful of CMGs and my bet is that in the coming years the number of unique employers will shrink even further through mergers, meaning entire regions will become effectively monopolized by a single employer. Combine the two trends and you can paint the picture yourself.

It really is a shame because EM was a match made in heaven for what I wanted out of medicine and lifestyle, and I decided to go to medical school in some part because of the opportunity to make decent of money by working hard but not often that EM seemed to offer.

To get back to OP's larger point, yeah I am really concerned too. Not because of the debt, which frankly I will just not pay back if my earning power as an attending declines past a certain threshold, but because of the wasted years that I could have spent enjoying my life and investing into other, potentially more fruitful endeavors. As OP alluded to, the conundrum is that the "safest" specialties which are basically the surgical subspecialties are safer from the idiosyncracies of medicine (midlevels, residency expansion, corporate medicine) but are riskier from a time perspective. Sure, you'll be safe from midlevels and oversupply if you do a 7 year neurosurgery residency vs a 3 year IM residency, but then is that worth the risk of delaying attending pay for another 4 years, during which we could easily get socialized healthcare, huge reimbursement cuts due to unfunded liabilities (social security and medicare) coming due, etc.

Thank God I'm a man because if I was a woman I might be tearing my hear out with the catch-22 I'd find myself in as a physician. Either take a possibly difficult/disadvantageous job now and have a family or wait and possibly never get both.

Very very tough for our XX colleagues.

I keep freaking out about this same issue. I like the idea of a single-payer program, but everytime I hear doctors crow about it, it blows my mind. I would rather not fall on my sword after spending years in school and more still to come in residency. My main fear is that I am going to graduate with United States medical school debt, and get paid Canadian wages. And then I guess just quit because **** life at that point.

Single-payer healthcare isn't what the doctor ordered
Doctors favor single payer, despite likely income hit | FierceHealthcare
The Impact of Single-Payer Health Care on Physician Income in Canada, 1850–2005

Woof.

In all these other countries they have to pay such minimal tuition that it's like whatever you won't be that rich get over it but for most US graduates (even from public schools) it's like I'd have to go jump off a bridge since my financial future would be gone

The worst part is nobody cares look at what's happened with law, pharmacy, dentistry, etc

What happened with law, pharmacy & dentistry?

And liability...

True, though I wouldn't even consider a big Level 1 trauma if I was doing EM. Community coughs and colds ftw.

At least you’re not one of the recent grads from some private dental schools staring down $500,000+ in loans. On top of that, many dental residencies charge tuition, sometimes as much as $200,000. There are more than a few orthodontists out there with $700,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

Yeah dentists get hosed.

 

[rg2o3]

delete

 

[rg2o3]

Ugh yeah I've heard people talk about those but haven't looked too closely. Not excited.
What happened with law, pharmacy & dentistry?
.

I could be wrong but I believe in Law, there is an issue with graduated students finding jobs. This has happened to a few of my friends. They wanted to become lawyers but could only get accepted to low tier private schools, and now have a ton of debt with no job within law. One teaches the paralegal studies at a local community college and another is back in school.

 

[softball2344]

I could be wrong but I believe in Law, there is an issue with graduated students finding jobs. This has happened to a few of my friends. They wanted to become lawyers but could only get accepted to low tier private schools, and now have a ton of debt with no job within law. One teaches the paralegal studies at a local community college and another is back in school.

And even for people who get hired if they aren't working for a top firm they are making like $50k..

 

[softball2344]

What happened with law, pharmacy & dentistry?

I meant debt has gone up astronomically but their salaries have certainly not. For law/pharmacy it's also super saturated which doesn't help

 

[frosted2]

Depends. General dentistry does fine as long as you don't have too much debt (mid-100's). Surgical specialist can make a ton, and if you know how to manage a practice and open multiple practices you can make bank. Like medicine, those who carve out niches or are business savvy can do exceedingly well. Generalists who are just along for the ride are going to struggle a bit.

My oral surgeon got $3000 for taking out my wisdom teeth in 15 minutes...

 

[frosted2]

Ugh yeah I've heard people talk about those but haven't looked too closely. Not excited.



Thank God I'm a man because if I was a woman I might be tearing my hear out with the catch-22 I'd find myself in as a physician. Either take a possibly difficult/disadvantageous job now and have a family or wait and possibly never get both.

Very very tough for our XX colleagues.



Woof.



What happened with law, pharmacy & dentistry?



True, though I wouldn't even consider a big Level 1 trauma if I was doing EM. Community coughs and colds ftw.



Yeah dentists get hosed.

Big reason that EM is really not appealing to me, even as a medic

Most of the docs I work under say that they feel like urgent care doctors that are stuck working nights & weekends.

 

[Waldeinsamkeit]

I could be wrong but I believe in Law, there is an issue with graduated students finding jobs. This has happened to a few of my friends. They wanted to become lawyers but could only get accepted to low tier private schools, and now have a ton of debt with no job within law. One teaches the paralegal studies at a local community college and another is back in school.

In law there was an explosion of for-profit universities -> anyone who is willing to pay can be a lawyer -> lawyer surplus and hard to get jobs out of the T14.
Medicine has done a pretty good job of keeping tight control on the number of graduates, and as long as there is not a Cooley School of Medicine on the horizon, I do not anticipate that being in our future.

 

[W19]

We might have that pretty soon:

University of Phenix School of Cathopathic Medicine