Paradox in Professionalism and Tie Wearing

[ericdamiansean]

Wearing a tie is a symbol of dress code professionalism. What do the rest of you think about this when research is finding out that doctors' ties contain lots of bacteria,which is an awfully good source for transfer from one patient to another?
I wear a tie pin so my tie doesn't hang and swing around and dip itself here and there.
And it's hard to wash ties, you have to send them for dry cleaning 🙁

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[drjeni2b]

i say that docs should lose the tie...even if you pin it back, it's still going to get into something bad somewhere....it's just an old display of professionalism and needs to be canned if it could cause harm to patients!!

 

[Neuronix]

Don't worry, the suit and tie will continue for at least several years and will only go away if this sort of research or some policymakers really start bashing on it. There's alot of things in medicine that aren't optimal, but are there for tradition or administration's sake.

 

[SunnyS81]

Although I hate wearing a tie, it a pretty good idea. Especially for academic medical centers , you want people to respect the people at the school and the institution. I don't think patients would take a doctor seriously if he showed up in shorts and a t-shirt even if the patient was wearing that. As for business casual like many work places have implemented, I've noticed a HUGE variability in the presentation of people. For the most part, even the worst tie+button down combos aren't that bad. Plus, I imagine cracking down on adults for dress code violations would be insulting since it conjures images of high schoolers getting busted for short hemlines. NEvertheless, I hate them.

As for them being dirty....yeah, but what about white coats? Doctors in general are walking infections......studies show we wash our hands less than the nurses or anyone else...

 

[flighterdoc]

Although I hate wearing a tie, it a pretty good idea. Especially for academic medical centers , you want people to respect the people at the school and the institution. I don't think patients would take a doctor seriously if he showed up in shorts and a t-shirt even if the patient was wearing that. As for business casual like many work places have implemented, I've noticed a HUGE variability in the presentation of people. For the most part, even the worst tie+button down combos aren't that bad. Plus, I imagine cracking down on adults for dress code violations would be insulting since it conjures images of high schoolers getting busted for short hemlines. NEvertheless, I hate them.

As for them being dirty....yeah, but what about white coats? Doctors in general are walking infections......studies show we wash our hands less than the nurses or anyone else...

So, what is the appropriate analogue for a dress shirt and tie for female physicians?

I was noticing this while watching the "Residents" last week - the male residents are mostly wearing shirts and ties, the female residents are wearing t-shirts, or open collared shirts.

I don't like wearing ties - the noose that men have to figuratively hang themselves with each day. Now, I have an EBM reason not to. 👍

 

[mbhbrown]

I have nothing against a professional look, but at what point are you willing to trade possible cross infection of patients? Remember it wasn't too long ago (~150 years) that physicians refused to wash their hands before seeing new patients. Didn't we learn anything from childbed fever?

 

[franklinthedog]

I literally evaporate when wearing a tie. Unfortunately my body mainly cools itself by releasing heat via my head, and when you cordon that off with a tie and a buttoned collar, well the rest is just plain awful for me. Dress codes are fine, just don't make it so some of us guys sweat to death. Maybe I should start a lobbying group, whoever came up with a suit and tie anyway? Sure, they look okay, but they are so uncomfortable!

 

[Jsscales05]

I read up on this research that was conducted on the "Tie Study". The principle researcher was stated as saying that any bacteria that is present on the tie is also present on shirts, pants, and anywhere esle in a non-sterile environment. Thinking of the tie as a method of transfer is quite a stretch. I think that this study was blown way out of proportion by the media. As far as wearing ties I'm neither for nor against the habit.

 

[8744]

We have some rotations where a tie is required. I'm not a rebel but I generally just don't wear one. Nobody has ever said anything. If my attending tells me to wear a tie I'll wear one. So far nobody has.

Same with scrubs. Theoretically there are rotations where scrubs are not allowed. I just wear them until somebody in authority tells me not to. Hasn't happened too often. It's not like you'll fail a rotation for not wearing a shirt and tie.

I hate wearing a tie. I rarely wore one in the military (as the uniform of the day was usually battle dress utilities. I never wore one as an engineer. The engineering business here in Louisiana is "office casual" which includes blue jeans. I hope to go into Emergency Medicine and wear pyjamas to work every day. (scrubs)

 

[SunnyS81]

Female dress code raises a good question. I've often noted what girls consider the tie-equalvent to be business causal. I do think they get off wearing more comfortable things, but I've been told they wear hose which balances everything out.

People rarely wash their white coats. If anything, I don't understand why a tie would contain more germs than the coat. I can't see many situations where a doc rubs their chest against a patient on purpose.......coat sleeves on the other hand.......

I've found that buying shirts with slightly larger necks makes wearing a tie far more comfortable......sure it isn't the perfect banker look, but almost no one will notice and you'll be more comfortable.

 

[Koppertone]

I read up on this research that was conducted on the "Tie Study". The principle researcher was stated as saying that any bacteria that is present on the tie is also present on shirts, pants, and anywhere esle in a non-sterile environment. Thinking of the tie as a method of transfer is quite a stretch. I think that this study was blown way out of proportion by the media. As far as wearing ties I'm neither for nor against the habit.

Yes, what difference does it make if you pin your tie or if you don't wear one at all? Instead of getting bacteria on your tie you're going to get it on your shirt.

 

[Gleevec]

I think scrubs look pretty professional. Or, if they don't look professional, at least they are uniquely medical (except for all the fools wearing them to the gym, etc).

Why shouldn't we all just wear scrubs all the time and turn them back in each day to be sanitized?

 

[NateatUC]

Thought crossed my mind... We've had a number of threads on how white coats are a joke, everyone wears white coats (nurses, nursing students, social work, etc.). BUT how many of these people wear white coats with a tie, or for the women, with something that would be of similar formality? At least in my neck of the woods, not many.

So I would assert that the white coat plus tie / professional dress is kind of the uniform that sets us med students and docs apart from a lot of the other folks wearing white coats. Since we don't do a lot of the real dirty work, we can afford to dress up a bit. That said, I think there are definitely times when one could wear one where it really would get in the way (the ED for instance).

On a more personal note, when I've got a tie on with my white coat, I actually do feel more "professional" and probably act a little more accordingly.

 

[kito]

I think scrubs look pretty professional. Or, if they don't look professional, at least they are uniquely medical (except for all the fools wearing them to the gym, etc).

Doesn't everyone and their momma where scrubs nowadays?

 

[Gleevec]

Doesn't everyone and their momma where scrubs nowadays?

Oh, I thought everyone and their momma wore long white coats (even the high schoolers doing a summer research project) while the med students are stuck with short ones.

Scrubs are the great fashion equalizer, and they are probably more associated with clinical medicine than the white coat, which seems to be just as common in basic science laboratores.

And, scrubs are more sanitary.

Finally, they named the best medical show ever "Scrubs" not "White Coat" 😉

 

[8744]

Oh, I thought everyone and their momma wore long white coats (even the high schoolers doing a summer research project) while the med students are stuck with short ones.

Scrubs are the great fashion equalizer, and they are probably more associated with clinical medicine than the white coat, which seems to be just as common in basic science laboratores.

And, scrubs are more sanitary.

Finally, they named the best medical show ever "Scrubs" not "White Coat" 😉

I saw a high-schooler on the elevator who is doing a summer program poudly sporting a long white lab coat complete with an ID badge. He looked like the kid who mows my lawn and it was kind of comical.

Clean, scrubs with a white coat (and a clean t-shirt under the scrubs to avoid that mafioso look) look professional enough. Many of our patients have kind of iffy hygeine so it's not like we have to dress up to impress them.

 

[flighterdoc]

I read up on this research that was conducted on the "Tie Study". The principle researcher was stated as saying that any bacteria that is present on the tie is also present on shirts, pants, and anywhere esle in a non-sterile environment. Thinking of the tie as a method of transfer is quite a stretch. I think that this study was blown way out of proportion by the media. As far as wearing ties I'm neither for nor against the habit.

Shirts, pants, even white coats get cleaned a lot more often than ties do. Ties have to be dry cleaned, and there is a good chance that the cleaners will screw it up when they do. My neck ties cost on average $100 each - so I go to a fair amount of trouble to not get them dirty so I don't have to clean (and risk) them. So, any excuse to not wear one is fine with me.

 

[flighterdoc]

I saw a high-schooler on the elevator who is doing a summer program poudly sporting a long white lab coat complete with an ID badge. He looked like the kid who mows my lawn and it was kind of comical.

Clean, scrubs with a white coat (and a clean t-shirt under the scrubs to avoid that mafioso look) look professional enough. Many of our patients have kind of iffy hygeine so it's not like we have to dress up to impress them.

Mafioso look? Whassa matta you, you got a girly chest?



I wear v-neck t-shirts so it won't help.

 

[8744]

Mafioso look? Whassa matta you, you got a girly chest?



I wear v-neck t-shirts so it won't help.

I meant back hair. Not to gross anyone out but I have a lot of chest and back hair. My wife tells my children that I am part black labradour and they have dutifully reproted this to their kindergarten and pre-school teachers.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

Shirts, pants, even white coats get cleaned a lot more often than ties do. Ties have to be dry cleaned, and there is a good chance that the cleaners will screw it up when they do. My neck ties cost on average $100 each - so I go to a fair amount of trouble to not get them dirty so I don't have to clean (and risk) them. So, any excuse to not wear one is fine with me.

The solution to this problem is . . . buy cheaper ties. Seriously.

 

[flighterdoc]

The solution to this problem is . . . buy cheaper ties. Seriously.

$100 is an average - I have a couple of $4 ties, and a couple of $250 ties.

But, I can't buy cheap ties, really (the cheap ones are from the AF). I'm taller than average (mostly in my torso), with a large neck (18") - I need LONG ties. I can't find any long cheap ties - even the long version of ties from (for example) Lands End are too short to tie correctly - even in a 4-in-hand knot.

A regular tie winds up with the inside end up near the knot, or the long end 2 or 3 buttons up from my waist. Not pretty.

It's my disability (sigh). I live with it, and I try not to be a burden on society.

 

[beastmaster]

Although ties do contain a considerable amount of microbes, it is not much greater than the rest of the physician's regular attire. Most research concludes that ties being inadvertently used as infection vectors is at worst only a mild hazard to patients in the ICU, where other cleanliness precautions are taken anyway.

Personally, I dislike the tie. The dress shirt as well. Studies show that half of patients cannot correctly identify whether their physician even wears a tie. But the tie has evolved through tradition to connote to most commanding and professional appearance a man can present. Whether that should be the goal is debatable.

 

[Adcadet]

I've got a few shirts which generous collars. They're almost too big, but they're definitely not uncomfortable. I have a tie that goes with each. I still have to choose the pants (usually the stain resistant, pleated, cuffed docker pants with a crisp pleat), but it's fairly close to the mindlessness of choosing a suit. Oh, and of course the white coat, but I keep that in my school locker along with the steth, and thePDA is in my backpack. So between the shirt/tie, steth, white coat with the caduceus on top of our school logo and name tag, my biggest problem is being mistaken for an MS3 or MS4 who might actually know something.

Oh, somebody said something about not feeling like they had to dress up for their patients with poor hygene. I worked with some pretty low SES (to put it politely) patients, and made it a point to dress up exactly like I would for the rich suburb patients I might see. A patient is a patient.

 

[ericdamiansean]

$100 is an average - I have a couple of $4 ties, and a couple of $250 ties.

But, I can't buy cheap ties, really (the cheap ones are from the AF). I'm taller than average (mostly in my torso), with a large neck (18") - I need LONG ties. I can't find any long cheap ties - even the long version of ties from (for example) Lands End are too short to tie correctly - even in a 4-in-hand knot.

A regular tie winds up with the inside end up near the knot, or the long end 2 or 3 buttons up from my waist. Not pretty.

It's my disability (sigh). I live with it, and I try not to be a burden on society.

Christ...$100..what type are they? I got a DKNY for like $50
I like tie pins though..they look really really nice 😎

How about serious or playful/joke kinda ties? I've seen some people with really outrageous ties..makes them look like clowns

 

[flighterdoc]

Christ...$100..what type are they? I got a DKNY for like $50
I like tie pins though..they look really really nice 😎

How about serious or playful/joke kinda ties? I've seen some people with really outrageous ties..makes them look like clowns

Generally from Nordstroms. And I'd never stick a pin in a tie, they leave holes and are never in the right place twice. If my tie is dangling, I stick it into my shirt.