Paramedic - Good or Bad?

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mic2377

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Hi all,
Recently, I was talking to a medic at the agency I work, who is leaving to attend medical school this fall. Particularly, she stated that she had overcome a considerable amount of prejudice against paramedics during the admissions process, which was a comment I didn't expect.

Is anyone else familiar with how adcom's view paramedics? I am very aware of how different prehospital medicine is from the rest of the medical field. Is it because of the personality traits that it fosters? Or that medics tend to be jaded/cynical/pissed-off after even a short time in the field? Or perhaps because they already think they "know it all?"

The whole thing seems a little counter-intuitive to me, especially since it would seem that a paramedic would have an outstanding level of clinical experience compared to that of the average pre-med. I also feel that I have a much more relevant grasp of current healthcare issues through my time in EMS.

I would like to hear everyone's opinion about this, particularly since I am considering getting my EMT-P credential this next year in the event that I need to reapply. This is mainly due to the fact that it is vastly easier to find a job as an EMT-P, instead of an EMT-I. I don't want to shoot my admission chances in the foot for next year, though.

Thanks~
 
There has been extensive discussion of this in the EM and EMS forums here. I think it's unusual for paramedic training to be viewed as a negative, but the consensus is also that it is not enormously helpful from an admissions point of view. I would submit that the training alone, without field experience, will not do much for you. Remember that many admissions people are not going to have a clear idea of the difference between a basic and a paramedic.

So, read the other threads, but I'd suggest deciding if medicine is your priority, and if so, focus on that.
 
There has been extensive discussion of this in the EM and EMS forums here. I think it's unusual for paramedic training to be viewed as a negative, but the consensus is also that it is not enormously helpful from an admissions point of view. I would submit that the training alone, without field experience, will not do much for you. Remember that many admissions people are not going to have a clear idea of the difference between a basic and a paramedic.

So, read the other threads, but I'd suggest deciding if medicine is your priority, and if so, focus on that.


I was an ambulance riding paramedic, and I'm given the impression that it really doesn't mean crap as far as admissions goes. Now, you'll rock the heck out of ACLS when it comes time to do that in med school and have a leg up performing certain clinical skills, but that's about it. I"m kind of in an odd boat because I got out of paramedic'ing and want no part of it. Granted, I loved the medical stuff, but I totally hated EMS operations. The on-scene stuff wasn't bad, but getting called out of your sleep to handle stupid stuff like infected ear piercings 🙄 and lots of circling the drain interfacility transports burned me out quick. I also found a substantial lack of professionalism in my coworkers and was never really comfortable in the environment, however, it was a part-time gig for me that I originally just got into because I wanted to learn some "medical stuff," and I thought it'd be kind of cool.
 
I know that the medical experience I got from being a paramedic and the contacts I made (med director was DO...wrote LOR) and being able to do observership at DO family practice residency definitely tipped the scales in my favor at my interview. That's all the adcoms wanted to talk about.....

Then again that was DO schools. You will find MD schools care very little about life experiences and that sort of thing and will base 99% of everything on numbers, etc.
 
The bias is completely justified. I ride EMS and it disgusts me to see how cocky all the EMT-B's and EMT-P's act. I'm an EMT-B myself and I don't act like the others do at all but it's honestly so pathetic.
 
I know that the medical experience I got from being a paramedic and the contacts I made (med director was DO...wrote LOR) and being able to do observership at DO family practice residency definitely tipped the scales in my favor at my interview. That's all the adcoms wanted to talk about.....

Then again that was DO schools. You will find MD schools care very little about life experiences and that sort of thing and will base 99% of everything on numbers, etc.
I was about to add this. I've heard the DO atmosphere is much more receptive of that type of experience.
 
The bias is completely justified. I ride EMS and it disgusts me to see how cocky all the EMT-B's and EMT-P's act. I'm an EMT-B myself and I don't act like the others do at all but it's honestly so pathetic.

Paragods.
 
I'm an EMT and I'd pretty much agree with what Pseudoknot said. It won't hurt you, makes for good stories, and is considered a plus to some, but to most ad comms it won't substitute for clinical experience, for whatever it's worth. My feeling during interviews was that they could care less how many cases you saw and pt's you ventilated if you weren't following doctors around and seeing what they do.

As for the EMT vs. Paramedic thing-- don't do it unless it's something you really want to do. It is quite a bit of training and you won't get to use it very much when med-school comes around. Many of the EMS sciences are dumbed down a bit and you'll have to re-learna lot of the stuff except for the basic things that EMT's know already anyway, like CPR, etc. The way ad comms view paramedics as opposed EMT's is not significant enough to warrant doing it just for them...but it certainly won't hurt you, and you won't be discriminated against. Some paramedics are surprised when they learn that doctors don't view them as highly as lay-people...but it's not discrimination.
 
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To clarify - I am already in the field of EMS, currently work somewhere, etc. So, any further credential I would pursue would not be for resume padding - it would be for enhanced employment prospects.

It is quite suprising to me that EMS stuff wouldn't be viewed as "clinical experience." I can't really imagine a more "real" kind of clinical experience, IMO.

The reason I was worried about the negative impact is that so many paramedics act like "paragods," as quoted before. These guys are like cowboys who ride a shiny truck with lights and sirens, instead of a horse. My Intermediate teacher was in his early 20's, had been a medic for 3 years, and was an utterly conceited SOB, on top of being jaded beyond belief. I could definitely understand how medical schools wouldn't want a person like that in their class.

The other issue is the burnout rate. I believe most pre-meds think of EMS as being a field where you save people's lives in crisis. In truth, it is about 95% mundane BS. It doesn't take long until you feel like cursing out the BS patients, which doesn't foster the kind, compassionate side that a doc should have.

My end goal is to be a physician - I am not losing sight of it. My advice to others is don't be sucked in too far! EMS eats up alot of promising people, and if you are not careful, you come out 10 years later, burnt-out, cynical, and bitter after taking that turn. Beware!
 
I would say its a HUGE mistake and waste of time to get your paramedic license if you are planning on reapplying to medical school within a year if you don't get in. It's sooo much work to get it, and you will barely get to use it. Just work as a an EMT-B or EMT-I (not sure which one you have). If you can't get a job with those, then just volunteer for your local Fire Dept. or EMS agency, as one year of no cash flow will make no difference considering you will be 200,000+ in debt from med school. Plus medical schools will question why you went to all the trouble to get your paramedic license, only to work for less than a year, in the same way they look down on nurses who apply to medical school within 1-2 years of getting their nursing degree.

But to answer your question, EMT's/medics are looked upon favorably for admissions, and they absolutely are viewed as good clinical experience (albeit they should not substitute doctor shadowing). It is unfair, but true, that medics are not looked upon no more favorably than just basics.
 
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It is quite suprising to me that EMS stuff wouldn't be viewed as "clinical experience." I can't really imagine a more "real" kind of clinical experience, IMO.

It's not. You're not thinking like an ad comm member. The whole reason they want you to do stuff like this is so you know what being a doctor is like...ie: seeing their role in various health care settings, seeing the way hospitals are run, etc, etc. They could care less how honed your O2 administration and rib-breaking skills are.

I remember feeling the same way years ago before I got my EMT, but after interviewing this year, I feel much, much differently.
 
It's not. You're not thinking like an ad comm member. The whole reason they want you to do stuff like this is so you know what being a doctor is like...ie: seeing their role in various health care settings, seeing the way hospitals are run, etc, etc. They could care less how honed your O2 administration and rib-breaking skills are.

I remember feeling the same way years ago before I got my EMT, but after interviewing this year, I feel much, much differently.


One adcom at the school I am planning on applying to said that any experience/ volunteering done with EMS/ an EMT license counts as clinical. I suppose its different for every school though
 
It's not. You're not thinking like an ad comm member. The whole reason they want you to do stuff like this is so you know what being a doctor is like...ie: seeing their role in various health care settings, seeing the way hospitals are run, etc, etc. They could care less how honed your O2 administration and rib-breaking skills are.

I remember feeling the same way years ago before I got my EMT, but after interviewing this year, I feel much, much differently.

Well, adcoms must be *****s then. How could you become a paramedic and NOT shadow doctors and work alongside them? I did, plus I went so far as to tell them that I was interested in becoming "premed," and many pulled me aside and took me from patient to patient doing assorted doctor things.
 
Of course being a paramedic counts as clinical and direct patient contact experience. How could it not?
 
Maybe LizzyM could clarify this? All the adcoms/advisors I have talked to say that it counts as good clinical experience...a lot better than volunteering around a hospital doing absolutely nothing productive
 
Maybe LizzyM could clarify this? All the adcoms/advisors I have talked to say that it counts as good clinical experience...a lot better than volunteering around a hospital doing absolutely nothing productive

Absolutely....hospital volunteering is worthless. You do nothing and learn nothing. Some could say the same about shadowing. Standing behind a doc while he is irritated that you are there and knowing nothing about what he/she is doing is not high yield.

IMO nursing/tech/medic is about as direct patient care as you can get short of straight-up doctoring.
 
Maybe LizzyM could clarify this? All the adcoms/advisors I have talked to say that it counts as good clinical experience...a lot better than volunteering around a hospital doing absolutely nothing productive[/QUOTE
 
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Maybe LizzyM could clarify this? All the adcoms/advisors I have talked to say that it counts as good clinical experience...a lot better than volunteering around a hospital doing absolutely nothing productive


That's the impression I've always been given.
 
I wanted to continue to medic as I was attracted to the field of EM. I have met several ER doctors that were former medics, and all spoke highly of their time as a medic being a beneficial experience.

Also, I think it is ironic that it is EMT's writing in about how poorly acquainted an EMT-I/P is with the hospital setting. Actually, an ALS certification is an ENTIRELY different ballgame than the EMT-B class. All ALS providers, must spend a minimum of 60-100 hrs in the various wards of the hospital doing skills, assessments, treatment, etc. These include the OR, OB/Gyn, ED, ICU, and non-acute wards. So, there is actually ALOT of hospital time.

Really, I can't believe how hard it was to even get my EMT-I cert. Most would consider it a waste, but I had a year to kill, and I enjoyed what I was learning. However, I haven't even cleared my ALS packet at the agency I work. I can certainly understand the sentiment about the lack of the professionalism from other providers. Some folks I have met are truly miserable human beings.

Anyways, now that my explanation is done, I am looking forward to going back to school. Being a Dr. is a helluva alot better long term career, no matter what pay cut we might eventually get from our current administration.
 
IMO, there are two basic things to be gained from clinical experience:

1. Getting a feel for the medical environment (no school wants to educate a student for two years, only to find out in the first week of clinicals, that they faint at the sight of blood, or hates how bad patients smell, or is allergic to florescent lights, or whatever)

2. Getting a feel for the role of physician

For me, working in EMS definitely satisfies #1, but I think might fall short for #2. As people have already said, being in EMS is very different from being a doctor, and I think that is why adcoms insist that EMS veterans gain some exposure, so they like everyone else know what they are getting into. And yes, EMTs interact with Docs on a daily basis, but does that ever involve any continuitity of care? The vast majority of specialties see their patients more than one time, and with the wind blowing towards bettering longterm Dr. and patient interactions and patient education, I think having exposure to it, is something the adcoms want to see.
 
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IMO, there are two basic things to be gained from clinical experience:

1. Getting a feel for the medical environment (no school wants to educate a student for two years, only to find out in the first week of clinicals, that they faint at the sight of blood, or hates how bad patients smell, or is allergic to florescent lights, or whatever)

2. Getting a feel for the role of physician

For me, working in EMS definitely satisfies #1, but I think might fall short for #2. As people have already said, being in EMS is very different from being a doctor, and I think that is why adcoms insist that EMS veterans gain some exposure, so they like everyone else know what they are getting into. And yes, EMTs interact with Docs on a daily basis, but does that ever involve any continuitity of care? The vast majority of specialties see their patients more than one time, and with the wind blowing towards bettering longterm Dr. and patient interactions and patient education, I think having exposure to it, is something the adcoms want to see.


How difficult is it to conceptualize "continuity of care?" Just because EMS personnel don't have this, beyond "fequent flyers," I see no reason why a reasonable person would be dissuaded from medicine simply because the individual lacks a notion of what it is like to render treatment to the same patient multiple times. Whether a doctor sees his patient once or or twice a year for twenty years I don't see what change that would make. Perhaps the doctor would become more socialized with the patient and know the family, etc., but beyond that what difference does it make and why would adcoms even care? It really seems that the whole premed process (all of it) lacks a lot of grounding in reality and common sense.
 
I know someone mentioned that they were thinking of getting their paramedic because they were interested in Emergency Medicine. I too am interested in Emergency Medicine. I am currently a Firefighter/EMT for a suburban fire department and the Firefighting is definitely something i would like to continue on a part time basis when i become a doctor( by part time Im saying only like a couple of shifts a month, nothing too extraordinary).

I was putting a little thought into trying to matriculate a year after undergrad (as opposed to going straight through)to become a paramedic as well. I was wondering if anyone knew if there was another option to that. I guess my question is:

Can a doctor (or even more specifically an EM physician) test out of a paramedic course?
 
There's a bit of bias because pre-hosp care and hosp care are different. The goal of the EMT/Paramedic is to stop the symptoms, not necessarily diagnose the problem. That's what hospital care is for.
 
I know, Firefighting is still a part of me i would like to carry over through med school, residency and beyond. It would just be more advantageous to become a paramedic at my department because then i would be able to sign up for a wider variety of shifts(EMT-Bs can only get a maximun of 4 per month).

Where i work we run a jump system. there are only 4-5 guys at a single station, so if we actually do get a fire call, the ambulance crew jumps to the engine to respond and then our ambulance calls are covered by either our other stations or by mutual aid.

After doing a little more research about this i found an EM resident ask a similar question in the EM forum(sorry for posting first). If anyone is interested someonw mentioned that they knew of some EM residents who just needed to take a paramedic refresher course to take the National Exam.

I did have another question though. Ive been looking and i know its debatable, but do paramedic clinicals count for anything if i were to do them before matriculating( can i use for any clinical exmerience in my AMCAS)
 
I know, Firefighting is still a part of me i would like to carry over through med school, residency and beyond. It would just be more advantageous to become a paramedic at my department because then i would be able to sign up for a wider variety of shifts(EMT-Bs can only get a maximun of 4 per month).

Where i work we run a jump system. there are only 4-5 guys at a single station, so if we actually do get a fire call, the ambulance crew jumps to the engine to respond and then our ambulance calls are covered by either our other stations or by mutual aid.

After doing a little more research about this i found an EM resident ask a similar question in the EM forum(sorry for posting first). If anyone is interested someonw mentioned that they knew of some EM residents who just needed to take a paramedic refresher course to take the National Exam.

I did have another question though. Ive been looking and i know its debatable, but do paramedic clinicals count for anything if i were to do them before matriculating( can i use for any clinical exmerience in my AMCAS)

Paramedic clinicals probably won't count for much to the ADCOMs, because in those you are primarily focusing on the assessment and treatment of various patients, and how you would treat them in the pre-hospital environment.

Regarding getting your paramedic, the only way you can test out would be if you were previously licensed in another state (or NREMT-P) through reciprocity. However, as a licensed physician, any patient care you provide in the field would ultimately reflect upon you practicing as a physician. I would say talk to your regional medical director/state EMS protocols for more information on that as it varies state to state.
 
I was an ambulance riding paramedic, and I'm given the impression that it really doesn't mean crap as far as admissions goes. Now, you'll rock the heck out of ACLS when it comes time to do that in med school and have a leg up performing certain clinical skills, but that's about it. I"m kind of in an odd boat because I got out of paramedic'ing and want no part of it. Granted, I loved the medical stuff, but I totally hated EMS operations. The on-scene stuff wasn't bad, but getting called out of your sleep to handle stupid stuff like infected ear piercings 🙄 and lots of circling the drain interfacility transports burned me out quick. I also found a substantial lack of professionalism in my coworkers and was never really comfortable in the environment, however, it was a part-time gig for me that I originally just got into because I wanted to learn some "medical stuff," and I thought it'd be kind of cool.

I second this. I have only been doing this for a little while but from what I have seen in my short time, professionalism is lacking where I am at. Some have told me it comes with the territory because of the stressful environment but I'm not buying that yet. The environment is not what I thought.

A side note:

Also in my short time I have gotten to know some of the ED docs pretty well enough to joke with them and some of them to talk about med school loans versus their salary now and how they are still paying them off. One has agreed to right me a LOR when the time comes which if that is all being an EMT has gotten me in the adcom's eyes that is enough for me.
 
Regarding getting your paramedic, the only way you can test out would be if you were previously licensed in another state (or NREMT-P) through reciprocity.

Sorry, but that is blatantly wrong. Plenty of states have processes for physicians and RNs to take paramedic exams after obtaining a few certifications (ACLS, PHTLS, etc) and passing a ride along.


I also find it humorous that a bunch of premeds are debating the value of EMS experience in the admissions process.
 
I became an EMT-B to become a firefighter. I did this waaaay before deciding to pursue medical school. I dont want to seem like one of those pre-meds who just gets it to look good (and i hope i can convey that in my application). But either way if i get into med school or not I still want to become a paramedic. If i do go to medical school i will still try to become one whether it means taking a year long course or not.

I now see that i have some talking to do with our EMS coordinator.

thanks for the input guys
 
I think the big takeaway for pre-med students is to realize that while EMT work is not a bad thing to have on your application, it's also not something that physicians are going to be particularly impressed by. And if you take on the attitude that many EMS people have, you're going to get slapped down pretty quick.


QFT

It does meet the LizzyM definition of clinical experience (you can smell patients) but it isn't a clinical setting (unless you are in the presence of someone who can write prescriptions). Sometimes, with transports, it isn't anything more than an expensive taxi service for people in wheelchairs and that isn't a clinical experience at all.
 
Ouch. So basically I need to support my work as an EMT-B by having extensive hours of shadowing? If thats the case then it's not a big deal, but I would hope that being an EMT would help me stand out at least slightly.
 
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Ouch. So basically I need to support my work as an EMT-B by having extensive hours of shadowing? If thats the case then it's not a big deal, but I would hope that being an EMT would help me stand out at least slightly.

Ten years ago, an EMT stood out (e.g. rather unusual) but not overly impressive. Today they are far more common. Same goes for running marathons and some other activites that have grown in "popularity".

What do doctors do all day (split between paperwork and patient work)? How long are those days? How do they think (make decisions about diagnostic tests, interprete those tests, make diagnosis, make treatment decisions, communicate with patients)? What are their worries and concerns about the future of the profession? That's the stuff you should be getting out of shadowing or other interaction with physicians. You don't get exposed to that information as an EMT.
 
However, as a licensed physician, any patient care you provide in the field would ultimately reflect upon you practicing as a physician.

+1

Paramedics are physician extenders. They work off of physician orders. Most of the time these are pre-signed orders (i.e., your protocol or SOP signed by your medical director, who must be a licensed physician), but many times these come online as verbal orders (again, ultimately originating from a doc). You won't need a medic license to legaly work pre-hospital medicine if you have an unrestricted license to practice medicine (i.e., are an MD or DO).

Now, getting permission from the director of the ambulance service to take a shift and run a crew is another matter entirely.
 
Originally Posted by Tired
I think the big takeaway for pre-med students is to realize that while EMT work is not a bad thing to have on your application, it's also not something that physicians are going to be particularly impressed by. And if you take on the attitude that many EMS people have, you're going to get slapped down pretty quick.

QFT
It does meet the LizzyM definition of clinical experience (you can smell patients) but it isn't a clinical setting (unless you are in the presence of someone who can write prescriptions). Sometimes, with transports, it isn't anything more than an expensive taxi service for people in wheelchairs and that isn't a clinical experience at all.

Although it usually tends to be much more of a humbling position than most realize, in this situation as in others it is important to use your contacts and experience to the best of your abilities and find ways to make yourself a unique, worthwhile applicant knowledgeable in practical, clinical matters.
 
Well i know that Adcoms like to see that you have other interests besides what your doing to matriculate somewhere. Could i use my interest in fire science because it is something i would like to continue doing when i become a physician( only on a part time basis e.g a few 12 hour shifts a month).

Also does anyone know being a paramedic would look when actually applying for an EM residency? I know the scope of practice is waaaay different. I currently work as a firefighter/emt and as a tech in an emergency department and i feel that a lot of the patients are similar. The ED and ambulances(even once from fire departments) get their share of patients who really dont need to be there, but I feel that even with big traumas or whatnot that appear in the ED, they still have to get there somewhere. I feel that they see a lot of the same patients.

I guess what im trying to say is if someone were a practicing paramedic, how would that look if one were trying to apply for an Em residency. I know that i should probably ask this in the EM forum but i just wanted to see peoples insights here ( Including LizzyM) because we were on the paramedic topic.
 
Well i know that Adcoms like to see that you have other interests besides what your doing to matriculate somewhere. Could i use my interest in fire science because it is something i would like to continue doing when i become a physician( only on a part time basis e.g a few 12 hour shifts a month).

Also does anyone know being a paramedic would look when actually applying for an EM residency? I know the scope of practice is waaaay different. I currently work as a firefighter/emt and as a tech in an emergency department and i feel that a lot of the patients are similar. The ED and ambulances(even once from fire departments) get their share of patients who really dont need to be there, but I feel that even with big traumas or whatnot that appear in the ED, they still have to get there somewhere. I feel that they see a lot of the same patients.

I guess what im trying to say is if someone were a practicing paramedic, how would that look if one were trying to apply for an Em residency. I know that i should probably ask this in the EM forum but i just wanted to see peoples insights here ( Including LizzyM) because we were on the paramedic topic.


You need to worry about getting into medical school first them passing your boards and then worry about going into EM if you are still interested in it by then.
 
Ten years ago, an EMT stood out (e.g. rather unusual) but not overly impressive. Today they are far more common. Same goes for running marathons and some other activites that have grown in "popularity".

What do doctors do all day (split between paperwork and patient work)? How long are those days? How do they think (make decisions about diagnostic tests, interprete those tests, make diagnosis, make treatment decisions, communicate with patients)? What are their worries and concerns about the future of the profession? That's the stuff you should be getting out of shadowing or other interaction with physicians. You don't get exposed to that information as an EMT.

While it is true that oftentimes EMT's are glorified taxis, I think being an EMT exhibits traits that are necessary to become a good physician. For instance: leadership, interacting with patients and collaborating with others, thinking on one's feet, making important decisions, etc. I think you need to look less superficially at the position and look at what being an EMT entails.
 
I would say its a HUGE mistake and waste of time to get your paramedic license if you are planning on reapplying to medical school within a year if you don't get in. It's sooo much work to get it, and you will barely get to use it. Just work as a an EMT-B or EMT-I (not sure which one you have). If you can't get a job with those, then just volunteer for your local Fire Dept. or EMS agency, as one year of no cash flow will make no difference considering you will be 200,000+ in debt from med school. Plus medical schools will question why you went to all the trouble to get your paramedic license, only to work for less than a year, in the same way they look down on nurses who apply to medical school within 1-2 years of getting their nursing degree.

But to answer your question, EMT's/medics are looked upon favorably for admissions, and they absolutely are viewed as good clinical experience (albeit they should not substitute doctor shadowing). It is unfair, but true, that medics are not looked upon no more favorably than just basics.

I'm a Nursing major, and i'm currently getting trained for EMT-B. yous tated that the medical school would, look down on nurses and emt-b? why is that? I wanted to go for Nursing because I thought it would be a headstart for me, and it is back up just incase I don't make it to medical school.
 
While it is true that oftentimes EMT's are glorified taxis, I think being an EMT exhibits traits that are necessary to become a good physician. For instance: leadership, interacting with patients and collaborating with others, thinking on one's feet, making important decisions, etc. I think you need to look less superficially at the position and look at what being an EMT entails.


I agree. Before I became an emt i never knew I would have a difficulty talking to patients. I found out real quick that I needed to work on my communication skills. I'm not sure how it is in other places but where I am I interact with the physicians a good bit. Most of the physicians will talk with me about the patient and will allow me to ask questions as to what a possible diagnosis may be or what his or her plan at the time is. While I understand that the patient is the physician's top priority at the moment, it is still nice to have a conversation about what is really going on with the patient.
 
Does the EMT job count as medical related work? If so, would a dental assistant's job count as medical related work? Just curious as to what it would count for me on an application. Understood that being an EMT doesn't make you stand out a ton and isn't a solid foundation to build your application on and what-not; however, it still can help to show that you are a well-rounded applicant right?
 
then just volunteer for your local Fire Dept. or EMS agency, as one year of no cash flow will make no difference considering you will be 200,000+ in debt from med school.

Seriously? 👎 Your financial advice to others is: you are already going to be broke, so take another year off? Awful financial advice, from every angle.
 
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I'm a Nursing major, and i'm currently getting trained for EMT-B. yous tated that the medical school would, look down on nurses and emt-b? why is that? I wanted to go for Nursing because I thought it would be a headstart for me, and it is back up just incase I don't make it to medical school.
You're going to get asked "Why not nursing?" You need a good answer. We have a nursing shortage. In essence, you took a seat from a student that would have followed the nursing path to retirement.
 
I know that the medical experience I got from being a paramedic and the contacts I made (med director was DO...wrote LOR) and being able to do observership at DO family practice residency definitely tipped the scales in my favor at my interview. That's all the adcoms wanted to talk about.....

Then again that was DO schools. You will find MD schools care very little about life experiences and that sort of thing and will base 99% of everything on numbers, etc.

This. Bear in mind, however, there are a thousand other ways to get exposure to MD's but generally EMS service is a good leg up in the networking category. Is it worth it for that alone? No.
 
This. Bear in mind, however, there are a thousand other ways to get exposure to MD's but generally EMS service is a good leg up in the networking category. Is it worth it for that alone? No.
👍👍 RAM
 
Hi everyone,

Warning this is a long post. I am not going to apologize for it. I wanted to post because I feel the need to defend my profession.

I am a paramedic. I work 24 hour shifts with a hospital based ambulance service, who is the sole 911 provider in a 620 sq mile county with a year-round population of around 130,000. Add approx. 30,000+ college students to the mix during the fall and spring. We are also the sole non-emergency transport service in the county. The service has 4 24 hour trucks and a 12 hour truck. We average 40+ calls per day as a service. The particular truck I work on averages 10+ per day. Some days over 50% of those calls are non-emergency transfers. Other days less than 10% are non-emergency transfers.

I became certified as an EMT-Basic after attending a semester course during the summer while taking Physics I and II. For 2 years I worked part time as an EMT-Basic as medical coverage at special events at the school I attended. This was a completely different experience than working on an ambulance. I worked as an EMT-Basic for 2 more years full time at the ambulance service. The first year was while completing my bachelors of science degree in molecular biology as a university honors scholar in 3 years with a honors thesis.

I applied to medical school late in the summer/ early fall after graduating. I applied to approx 25 schools, finished secondaries to 15 and did not receive a single interview. Some of that was due to applying as a Georgia resident (my parents live there), and living/working/going to school in Alabama. Some of that was due to being late in the game. When calling admissions officer/directors to ask what I could do to improve, they stated I had a great application, they were not sure what to tell me except try again. One school from Georgia told me I was so close to being an Alabama resident to not apply again. An Alabama school told me that I was a Georgia resident, don't bother. I felt that I needed more life experience because until then my life had been school, school, school, and doing things to get into medical school. I, like many people around me, didn't do anything else. So I decided to take time off and just work full time.

I was tired of being just an "ambulance driver", as in our state this highest level provider is always in the back no matter the condition of the pt.

I finished my certification as a paramedic in August 2008 and immediately transitioned into working as a full time paramedic. I can now tell you the experiences I have gained as a paramedic in the past year can not be compared as the experiences as an EMT-Basic. (I am not trying to offend any EMT's out there. I would have argued to he** and back about this point before being a paramedic.) The same type of calls I went on as an EMT-Basic are totally different now that I am the one determining a differential diagnosis and treating the patient.

We have to remember, EMS is a relatively new field. While there have been things around, especially in the military that the roots of modern day EMS can be traced to, modern pre-hospital care really began in the 1960's. This is long after nursing and medicine became established. EMS has come a long way in the past 50 years, and is still developing and gaining respect.

Now for those who don't know the difference between the levels in EMS, it varies depending on the state where you live/work. We do more than O2 administration and rib breaking. The basic idea is that the EMT-Basic provides basic level of care/first aid, EMT-Intermediates provide a level of care that is between EMT-Basic and Paramedic, and Paramedics provide the most care with cardiac monitoring, drugs etc.

In my area, EMT-Basics are certified after passing National Registry exam requiring 1 semester of course work, Healthcare provider CPR/AED training, and approx 48 hours of clinicals between the ambulance and ER. They are allowed to do basic first aid, give oxygen, and assist the pt administer their own physician prescribed medications.

My area does not certify EMT-Intermediates. In the neighboring state, until the last 2 years, they did not certify EMT-Basics, only EMT-Intermediates. I believe EMT-Intermediate is another semester or two of course work depending on area. EMT-Intermediates start IV's, give fluids such as normal saline and D50, and in some areas are trained in endotracheal intubation.

Paramedic certification takes approx 2 years straight through including EMT-B and EMT-I coursework. Some areas require some amount of work experience as an EMT-B or EMT-I before training as paramedic. Other areas let people go straight through school. To be licensed as a paramedic in my state, you are required to be nationally registered. You are also required to have and maintain certifications in Healthcare provider CPR/AED, Advances Cardiac Life Support (ACLS), International Trauma Life Support (ITLS), and Pediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS).

Paramedics are physician extenders. They are acting under their medical director's license. Paramedics are trained in advanced skills such as endotracheal and nasotracheal intubation, cardiac monitoring/defibrillation/pacing, pharmacology (including training on multiple medications carried/administered), needle chest decompression, needle crichothyrotomy, surgical crich. They administer many medications including antidysrhythmics, anticonvulsants, sedatives and narcotics on what is called standing orders. Some places paramedics do pericardiocentesis and in extreme cases, chest tubes. They are trained to form a differential diagnosis and to treat that pt based on that diagnosis. They act on many standing orders and depending on the area of the country have to call online medical control for few, if any orders. There are many things that we could do, or not do, that would adversely effect the outcome of the pt.

Nursing is a whole different field and can not be compared to being a paramedic. I have friends who went to nursing school after being a paramedic and had trouble because of a different mindset. I have a friend who was a paramedic, became a nurse. She recently got in trouble for going ahead and treating a pt without an order from a doctor. She consequently saved that pt by doing what she was trained to do as a paramedic. She was told she should not have acted on her own, but should have called a code since she could not get in touch with a doctor for orders.

Many of the nurses I know that have a poor attitude toward paramedics do not realize what we are trained to do. I have personally had nurses hand me paperwork to take with me on a transfer to a higher level of care, that have told me they sealed the envelope because it is confidential medical information and we are not part of their medical care. I have had a charge nurse tell me I never had a class on cardiac medications. I have been asked every day I have worked "why didn't you start an IV on this patient?" This is on patients that do not need an IV. I am not going to start an IV and draw blood on a patient that I am not going to give fluids to or give medications to just because it makes a nurses job easier. If something happened and God forbid the IV site become infected and in extreeme case the pt loses a limb, telling the court/judge that you "started the IV because the nurse wanted you to", is not going to cut it. (Sorry for the vent!)

I believe every ER nurse/doctor should be required to ride at least 72 hours a year with EMS in at least a moderately busy 911 setting; this should be in 24 hour shifts. Paramedics should also be required to do the same number of hours of rotations in the ER a year to see the ultimate diagnosis of patients.

I agree that pre-hospital education is completely different than other medical fields. It has to be. Our ultimate goal in life threatening emergencies is to keep the patient alive. We are not trained in long-term therapies. We are not trained about how our treatments affect the long-term case management of a patient. Unless you follow up on your own, you do not know the ultimate diagnosis and outcome of a patient.

That being said, I do feel that the education and attitude of many paramedics is subpar. Many are now taught to pass the test. Others are taught with the attitude, the protocol says to do A when B happens, not why they are doing it. Some people in this field give others the bad name/ stigma that we have. I agree there are definitely some bad apples.

All that being said, some comments on some posts in this forum. For those that say their co-workers lack professionalism. You are going to see this in every field. I have met nurses and doctors that have lacked professionalism. Some nurses I work with are notorious for having conversations with co-workers and purposefully ignoring their "annoying" pt's questions/requests. So it is not just paramedics acting unprofessional. For those people who are saddened by this fact, do something to change it. Do your best to act/look professional and to promote that standpoint. For those who stated examples of paramedics treating patients wrong (status asthmaticus treated as a panic attack), I agree there should be a system in place to let paramedics know the ultimate outcome of a patient and quality control.

To those who say paramedics do not provide pt education. A big part of my training was to do just that. We are taught to go out into the community to be visible and promote preventative education. We do presentations to schools, churches, daycares on injury prevention. We do CPR classes in the community. When caring for patients with a preventable condition we explain how they could have prevented getting into this situation (ie take your medication as directed, don't eat so much salt, no you can't take extra insulin just to eat that huge piece of chocolate cake or you can't take your insulin and eat cucumbers and tomatoes for dinner). Also I have been amazed by all the times I explained to a patient how their medication was supposed to work, and why they were feeling how they did (side effects), that they said they were never told. Who was supposed to provide that pt education? I have provided family education in explaining the condition of their loved one all while working to keep them alive.

In some cases (many more than not), ambulance transport is nothing but an expensive taxi ride. Sometimes for people in wheelchairs, sometimes for people who can walk. We are abused by all including other health care professionals. I have no desire to deny anyone the treatment they wish to have, but the person with the bug bite they got 3 days ago, that itches gets old. The person that calls multiple times a day, every day, and wants to be transported to every hospital we have (in various parts of the city) so that they can use their taxi cab voucher to go shopping gets old. The hospital calling for us to transfer a patient home that has no medical devices, and can walk, is ridiculous but happens all the time.

I have done multiple non-emergency transfers that I have learned a lot from. I make a point to research a medical condition if I have never seen it. These are the calls that you really have time to talk to a patient, unlike emergency situations. I feel that the more you learn during these calls, the better you are during the "real" calls.

It is the true emergency calls that everyone enjoys. This is not because you want anyone to be hurt or sick, but because you get to do what you are trained to do. Some people enjoy trauma the most. You may have heard those people refered to as trauma junkies or adrenaline junkies. Trauma is relatively easy. Personally I enjoy complex medical calls or even the more complex trauma/medical call. The COPD patient with acute CHF and hypoglycemia. You don't see these much, but I like the challenge. Many with chronic conditions wait until the absolute last minute to seek medical attention. The patient that had a seizure or a stroke and wrecked their car. The patient that overdosed and then shot himself in the chest. The challenging calls are the most rewarding to me.

I do not see how anyone could say that being a paramedic is not clinical experience. I went to undergrad with students who studied their butt off, took the MCAT and made in the 95% rage who had shadowed doctors and got into medical school only to quit and go to law school the first time they saw someone die.

I do not see how the clinicals we did as paramedic students do not count for clinical experience. I did well over 300 hours of clinicals in various departments including the ER, ICU, CVICU, OR, cath lab, peds, psych, medical floors etc and on the ambulance. The point of many of the clinicals outside the ER was continuity of care and to see the clinical outcome of the patient, administer medications, assess patients in a more controlled environment etc. The OR was not only to see surgeries, but gain experience in monitoring patients and airway control including intubation. I did clinicals in an ER that has interns and residents. While the new interns were standing back watching and twiddling their thumbs complaining about how they didn't get to do anything, they had the paramedic students in the trauma room starting IV's, helping to splint/bandage an injury, intubate and helping to take care of the patient.

I do not see how work experience does not count as clinical experience. I volunteered (and did not just sit and watch like many) the entire time I was in middle school, high school, and undergrad in hospitals and doctor's offices. I shadowed doctors in various fields most of the time I was in undergrad. That experience pales in comparison to my work experience. Shadowing a doctor that is telling someone their loved one died is totally different than telling them yourself. Determining in someones home that a 4 lb fully developed newborn is stillborn when the person didn't even know they were pregnant is different. Watching a doctor intubate is totally different than doing it yourself. Listening to a doctor tell how he determines what is wrong with a patient is totally different than doing it yourself. Making the decision on which medication a patient needs is different. I have seen and done a lot that I never would have experienced first hand without having been a paramedic.

As much as I have mentioned the bad, I can truly say I have saved a person's life. There is a little boy walking around today that would not be alive without all the paramedics did getting him to the helicopter and the paramedic and nurse on the helicopter, and the doctor's and nurses at the hospital. There is a man that was in cardiac arrest, that walked out of the hospital a week later. Calls like that I will remember forever.

Critical care transfers I have been involved with have made me more aware of all the different specialties in medicine. I have found a great enjoyment from working with critically injured/ ill children, especially infants. I never would have dreamed of wanting to do something like that before. I find many diseases and disease processes fascinating and want to learn more and more about them.

I have many times been told by patients, pharmacists, nurses, and doctors that I should be a doctor. This is coming from complete strangers who have no idea I want to be a physician. While my ultimate goal is to go to medical school and become a physician, the comment sometimes comes across as insulting. Why do paramedics have to be seen as unintelligent, or a stepping stone profession? Why can't paramedics be intelligent professionals, know more about their job, and know why they are providing treatments, not just that their protcol says to do that. All the good paramedics know this information. Some of it comes through experience. Many paramedics strive to further their education through continuing education classes and more certifications such as CCEMT-P. Others return to nursing school to come back and work on a critical care ambulance or helicopter as advancement is not available in my area as "just a paramedic".

It is frustrating, but I do not feel that I will see, in my lifetime, the advancement of the paramedic to what it needs (and I would like) it to be. I love my job, I love what I do. I love working directly with patients, seeing the entire picture of not only their illness, but the environment where they are living. I love being the one to make the decisions. I am not doing my job because it will look good on applications. I feel that I would let my self down if I did not go to medical school. I feel that I could have more impact on EMS as a physician. I also feel that I can do more specialty care as a physician than a paramedic.

After reading everyone's comments, I hope that being a paramedic does not hurt my chances of being a physician when I reapply in the near future. I hope that the people who truly want to be a paramedic (even if just for a little bit before medical school) pursue that field. I hope that you too can have an impact on the improvement of EMS in the future. And a tip, don't wait til August/September to turn in your primary application!

Thank you to all who took the time to read this. Good luck in all your future endeavors!

Medicechic
 
After reading everyone's comments, I hope that being a paramedic does not hurt my chances of being a physician when I reapply in the near future. I hope that the people who truly want to be a paramedic (even if just for a little bit before medical school) pursue that field. I hope that you too can have an impact on the improvement of EMS in the future. And a tip, don't wait til August/September to turn in your primary application!

Thank you to all who took the time to read this. Good luck in all your future endeavors!

Medicechic

When you say "in the near future" I hope you mean in Summer 2010 because any sooner is "too late", if you know what I mean.

And with that application apply a heavy dose of humility. I think that some paramedics come off as cocky "lifesavers" who know how to do all sorts of procedures and come across as too self-important to be palatable to an adcom.
 
I can't speak for every Paramedic in this forum, but I can tell you about my training. 500 hours in the classroom, 300 in the hospital ER, 200 in OR/ICU/OB, and 500 hours on an internship. The hours in the hospital were working directly with Docs, doing everything from administering drugs, writing reports, and placing foleys. I've performed several successful endotracheal intubations in the OR, I've placed hundreds of IV's and pushed hundreds of drugs, name any route. I lead a handful of ACLS codes before even graduating. The best experience comes from the hundreds of patient assessments and histories you do. This is a sliver of the experience I gained in school. Assisted in multiple births (unfortunately didn't have a chance to deliver), pronounced death a few times, and even did my fair share of "BS" calls. If this is somehow considered inferior to doctor shadowing, pardon me folks!

This thread is full of so much misinformation and ignorance.
 
I finished my certification as a paramedic in August 2008 and immediately transitioned into working as a full time paramedic. I can now tell you the experiences I have gained as a paramedic in the past year can not be compared as the experiences as an EMT-Basic. (I am not trying to offend any EMT's out there. I would have argued to he** and back about this point before being a paramedic.) The same type of calls I went on as an EMT-Basic are totally different now that I am the one determining a differential diagnosis and treating the patient.

The question isn't whether the experience of working as a basic compared to a paramedic is difference or not, the question is whether that difference is significant enough for admission committees to care about said difference. Especially consider, for a moment, that medical science (anatomy, physiology, histology, etc) and the basics of medical care (injections, IVs, taking a history, conducting a patient exam) will all be covered in much more depth in medical school than in paramedic school. Sure, you might have an advantage in cardiology because you can read a 12 lead and an advantage over your fellow students when learning how to do a physical, but in the grand scheme of things, that advantage is almost nothing.

We have to remember, EMS is a relatively new field. While there have been things around, especially in the military that the roots of modern day EMS can be traced to, modern pre-hospital care really began in the 1960's. This is long after nursing and medicine became established. EMS has come a long way in the past 50 years, and is still developing and gaining respect.
New compared to what? Respiratory therapy isn't that much older than EMS (20 or so years) and physicians assistants are just about as old as EMS, but are a lot further ahead in terms of respect, education standards, and reimbursement compared to EMS. The problem with EMS is EMS's value of skills over education and wanting the shortest route possible to be able to do the "cool" interventions. Unfortunately, the culture of EMS is extremely anti-education at the moment for a variety of reasons (example 1: National College of Technical Instruction only requires a 6 day "Anatomy and Physiology" course. Example 2: I can count on one hand the number of states that requires an associates degree to become a paramedic).



Paramedic certification takes approx 2 years straight through including EMT-B and EMT-I coursework. Some areas require some amount of work experience as an EMT-B or EMT-I before training as paramedic. Other areas let people go straight through school. To be licensed as a paramedic in my state, you are required to be nationally registered. You are also required to have and maintain certifications in Healthcare provider CPR/AED, Advances Cardiac Life Support (ACLS), International Trauma Life Support (ITLS), and Pediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS).
...and in the interest of complete information, one can easily find a paramedic course that can be completed in as little as 9 months to be eligible to test for the National Registry.

I agree that pre-hospital education is completely different than other medical fields. It has to be. Our ultimate goal in life threatening emergencies is to keep the patient alive. We are not trained in long-term therapies. We are not trained about how our treatments affect the long-term case management of a patient. Unless you follow up on your own, you do not know the ultimate diagnosis and outcome of a patient.
Saying that we don't need education is a complete cop out and is the very essence of what is keeping EMS in the dark ages. Sorry, but we need the same education as everyone else. There's absolutely no reason why EMS needs to be taught watered down "A/P for EMS" style courses.


Many paramedics strive to further their education through continuing education classes and more certifications such as CCEMT-P. Others return to nursing school to come back and work on a critical care ambulance or helicopter as advancement is not available in my area as "just a paramedic".
Note 1: The Critical Care Transport Program (the original CCEMT/P program) is a 12 day course.

Note 2: Most states do not have a separate license for critical care paramedics.
 
I can't speak for every Paramedic in this forum, but I can tell you about my training. 500 hours in the classroom, 300 in the hospital ER, 200 in OR/ICU/OB, and 500 hours on an internship. The hours in the hospital were working directly with Docs, doing everything from administering drugs, writing reports, and placing foleys. I've performed several successful endotracheal intubations in the OR, I've placed hundreds of IV's and pushed hundreds of drugs, name any route. I lead a handful of ACLS codes before even graduating. The best experience comes from the hundreds of patient assessments and histories you do. This is a sliver of the experience I gained in school. Assisted in multiple births (unfortunately didn't have a chance to deliver), pronounced death a few times, and even did my fair share of "BS" calls. If this is somehow considered inferior to doctor shadowing, pardon me folks!

This thread is full of so much misinformation and ignorance.

Because medicine is only about pushing drugs and doing patient assessments, right? Oh, and which medical school isn't teaching their students how to do those things again?
 
Because medicine is only about pushing drugs and doing patient assessments, right? Oh, and which medical school isn't teaching their students how to do those things again?

I said neither of those things. Reading comprehension, my friend.

This thread is about whether clinical experience obtained from working as a Paramedic is helpful for med school and the application process. The answer is yes.
 
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