Paramedics Charged With Murder After Patient Death

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2 paramedics in Illinois have been charged with murder after transporting a patient in the prone position while strapped to the cot - he was found dead due to asphyxiation at the receiving hospital.
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How is it you strap a patient down in a prone position and you get charged with first-degree murder, but if you beat the crap out of someone and kill them or if you shoot and kill them, you only get charged with second-degree murder?

First-degree murder: premeditated intentional -- it's planned -- or associated with felony murder (commission of another felony, which the paramedics weren't listed as also being charged).

Second-degree murder: unplanned intentional killing OR a death caused by a reckless disregard for human life.

Seems more appropriate the paramedics might have had a reckless disregard to human life and didn't come up with a plan to intentionally kill the patient.

Maybe the prosecutor charged them with this knowing they wouldn't be convincted of the first-degree charge and therefore found innocent. Just thinking in writing here.
 
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Jesus

If that's all they're looking for i could be charged with murder for any of my patients with a bad outcome
 
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southerndoc said:
How is it you strap a patient down in a prone position and you get charged with first-degree murder, but if you beat the crap out of someone and kill them or if you shoot and kill them, you only get charged with second-degree murder?

First-degree murder: premeditated intentional -- it's planned -- or associated with felony murder (commission of another felony, which the paramedics weren't listed as also being charged).

Second-degree murder: unplanned intentional killing OR a death caused by a reckless disregard for human life.

Seems more appropriate the paramedics might have had a reckless disregard to human life and didn't come up with a plan to intentionally kill the patient.

Maybe the prosecutor charged them with this knowing they wouldn't be convincted of the first-degree charge and therefore found innocent. Just thinking in writing here.
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He was obviously a frequent flier and you just have to be so careful with them. Now he’s dead and they’ll be in jail for a long long time. Just load him on a stretcher and give him some versed and drive a mile to the hospital. 20 minutes total and on to the next call. 3 lives lost or ruined by a moment of hatred/frustration/neglect.
 
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AlmostAnMD said:
Jesus

If that's all they're looking for i could be charged with murder for any of my patients with a bad outcome
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It was pretty wanton disregard for his actual health and safety. A guy in delirium tremens that they never once assessed vital signs on, whom appeared to be in physiologic distress, and whom there is video of them strapping down and immediately ceases making any noise and is not further reassessed until the point of death after being strapped face-down onto a stretcher? Coupled with treating him like garbage the entire time? It's disregard for a human life beyond a manner that is simply one's job, they actively harmed the guy through very targeted and personal actions toward him. Still, feels more like second than first degree murder to me.
 
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Dr Mantis Toboggan said:
He was obviously a frequent flier and you just have to be so careful with them. Now he’s dead and they’ll be in jail for a long long time. Just load him on a stretcher and give him some versed and drive a mile to the hospital. 20 minutes total and on to the next call. 3 lives lost or ruined by a moment of hatred/frustration/neglect.
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I doubt very seriously they spend a "long time" in jail.
 
Keep in mind that there is no universal meaning for "first degree", "second degree" murder and the like.

Every state uses its own, unique, terminology.

For example, in one state that I vaguely remember reading about, "first degree murder" is only if you poison and kill another person. Everything else is labeled as "second degree" murder, and you can get the death penalty for "second degree" murder in that state because it is what everyone else calls "first degree murder." I am not going to look up the definition that Illinois uses, but it would not be unusual if killing someone by "strangulation" is "first degree murder" regardless of premeditation. Again, the label doesn't matter.

The fact the maximum penalty is sixty years suggests that this is the case.
 
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Interestingly enough, Illinois law does NOT require intent to kill in order to be charged with first degree murder, only that your actions posed a "strong possibility" of death.

Still not a slam dunk, but alleviates the need to prove that they intended to kill the patient, which is significant.
 
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FiremedicMike said:
Interestingly enough, Illinois law does NOT require intent to kill in order to be charged with first degree murder, only that your actions posed a "strong possibility" of death.

Still not a slam dunk, but alleviates the need to prove that they intended to kill the patient, which is significant.
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Which sounds a little hinky vs other states. Like, here in NY, no intent is manslaughter, or might even be criminally negligent homicide.
 
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Apollyon said:
Which sounds a little hinky vs other states. Like, here in NY, no intent is manslaughter, or might even be criminally negligent homicide.
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Seems like another reason to avoid Illinois…
 
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I wonder if it's one where the prosecutors are purposely throwing out charges they know they can't convict on? "Hey, they got acquitted, but at least we tried."
 
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Birdstrike said:
I wonder if it's one where the prosecutors are purposely throwing out charges they know they can't convict on? "Hey, they got acquitted, but at least we tried."
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Yeah, that's what @southerndoc mentioned as well. I feel like that's what they did with the Husel trial by not charging him with anything other than actual straight up murder.
 
Have they ran out of criminals to catch and charge in IL?

Oh I’m sorry, there’s no money in that
 
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Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger.

Point A: You're in your ED. You're there when EMS rolls in with this guy on the stretch. He has no vitals. You code him and can't get him back.

Point B: The police and district attorney decide the patient didn't die due to medial reasons, but was murdered.

How did they get from point A, to point B?

My guess is, somebody in the medical field had to point the finger. If so, why?

Cops don't just randomly charge health care providers with murder when a patient dies. Unless it's something obvious, like a shooting, stabbing or beatdown, they have nothing to go by other than what the medical providers around them tell them.

Did someone in the ED tell them, "EMS killed them. And they did it on purpose?"

Did the medical examiner declare it a homicide? If so, what did they point to in the report, as evidence?

Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger. Otherwise, the cops wouldn't ever be involved to begin with.

Who did and why?
 
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You left out one other possibility: The EMS crew talked with other people about what they did, and those other people turned them in.
 
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AlmostAnMD said:
Jesus

If that's all they're looking for i could be charged with murder for any of my patients with a bad outcome
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You routinely strap someone face down on a stretcher or give medications or procedures that are well known to cause harm for no benefit?

I became an EMT (NREMT-B) in undergrad back in 2006. Even then prone positioning was, "Something we used to do, but we now know it has an unacceptably high risk of position asphyxia, so don't do this." If that was the official line then, how are people still doing this 17 years later?
 
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Birdstrike said:
Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger.

Point A: You're in your ED. You're there when EMS rolls in with this guy on the stretch. He has no vitals. You code him and can't get him back.

Point B: The police and district attorney decide the patient didn't die due to medial reasons, but was murdered.

How did they get from point A, to point B?

My guess is, somebody in the medical field had to point the finger. If so, why?

Cops don't just randomly charge health care providers with murder when a patient dies. Unless it's something obvious, like a shooting, stabbing or beatdown, they have nothing to go by other than what the medical providers around them tell them.

Did someone in the ED tell them, "EMS killed them. And they did it on purpose?"

Did the medical examiner declare it a homicide? If so, what did they point to in the report, as evidence?

Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger. Otherwise, the cops wouldn't ever be involved to begin with.

Who did and why?
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This would have automatically been made a medical examiner case. No one needed to be a "snitch" for charges to be brought.
 
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allantois said:
Have they ran out of criminals to catch and charge in IL?

Oh I’m sorry, there’s no money in that
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There's money in criminal charges? For whom, the prison system?
 
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southerndoc said:
How is it you strap a patient down in a prone position and you get charged with first-degree murder, but if you beat the crap out of someone and kill them or if you shoot and kill them, you only get charged with second-degree murder?

First-degree murder: premeditated intentional -- it's planned -- or associated with felony murder (commission of another felony, which the paramedics weren't listed as also being charged).

Second-degree murder: unplanned intentional killing OR a death caused by a reckless disregard for human life.

Seems more appropriate the paramedics might have had a reckless disregard to human life and didn't come up with a plan to intentionally kill the patient.

Maybe the prosecutor charged them with this knowing they wouldn't be convincted of the first-degree charge and therefore found innocent. Just thinking in writing here.
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You’re saying the prosecutor is intentionally charging them with something they know they will not be able to prove because he is covertly trying to protect the paramedics?
 
Birdstrike said:
Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger.

Point A: You're in your ED. You're there when EMS rolls in with this guy on the stretch. He has no vitals. You code him and can't get him back.

Point B: The police and district attorney decide the patient didn't die due to medial reasons, but was murdered.

How did they get from point A, to point B?

My guess is, somebody in the medical field had to point the finger. If so, why?

Cops don't just randomly charge health care providers with murder when a patient dies. Unless it's something obvious, like a shooting, stabbing or beatdown, they have nothing to go by other than what the medical providers around them tell them.

Did someone in the ED tell them, "EMS killed them. And they did it on purpose?"

Did the medical examiner declare it a homicide? If so, what did they point to in the report, as evidence?

Somebody medical, must have pointed the finger. Otherwise, the cops wouldn't ever be involved to begin with.

Who did and why?
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As mentioned before, ED deaths in almost all cases are automatic coroner cases

And secondly, if EMS called in a case of a drunk guy, and what I got was to work a code in a strapped down guy immediately on arrival, I would be documenting the **** out of this case, as admin and lawyers are absolutely going to be crawling over every detail of this.
 
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pkwraith said:
As mentioned before, ED deaths in almost all cases are automatic coroner cases

And secondly, if EMS called in a case of a drunk guy, and what I got was to work a code in a strapped down guy immediately on arrival, I would be documenting the **** out of this case, as admin and lawyers are absolutely going to be crawling over every detail of this.
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Definitely state by state dependent. Where I work, death in the ED carries no special weight as a medical examiner case. They still decline most cases.

Agree about documenting. I wouldn't "throw ems under the bus" but you can be damn sure that any idiot reading my chart would be able to tell that they brought me a corpse that had appeared to have asphyxiated on the way here.
 
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BoardingDoc said:
Yeah, that's what @southerndoc mentioned as well. I feel like that's what they did with the Husel trial by not charging him with anything other than actual straight up murder.
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Like everything, it varies by state, but a prosecutor can ask a jury to convict on any "lesser included offense."

So an indictment for first-degree murder (usually) also automatically includes the possibility of a conviction for lesser degrees of murder, manslaughter, assault/battery, etc. So there is usually no downside for getting an indictment for murder, since it includes everything else.

However, the judge has to agree that there is evidence to support the lesser included offense. As in the Husel case, it was hard to argue that it was "in the heat of passion." The defense, can also, in certain places, not allow a lesser included offense to be presented to the jury. The downside is if the jury feels "he needs convictin ..." he can end up with a first-degree murder conviction when the jury may have been willing to settle for involuntary manslaughter.
 
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AlmostAnMD said:
Jesus

If that's all they're looking for i could be charged with murder for any of my patients with a bad outcome
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You routinely harangue and belittle your patients and then slam them prone and restrain them in a positione they can't breathe in? You should probably stop doing that.
 
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Vandalia said:
Like everything, it varies by state, but a prosecutor can ask a jury to convict on any "lesser included offense."

So an indictment for first-degree murder (usually) also automatically includes the possibility of a conviction for lesser degrees of murder, manslaughter, assault/battery, etc. So there is usually no downside for getting an indictment for murder, since it includes everything else.

However, the judge has to agree that there is evidence to support the lesser included offense. As in the Husel case, it was hard to argue that it was "in the heat of passion." The defense, can also, in certain places, not allow a lesser included offense to be presented to the jury. The downside is if the jury feels "he needs convictin ..." he can end up with a first-degree murder conviction when the jury may have been willing to settle for involuntary manslaughter.
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Yes, this was exactly my point. My understanding is that in the Husel trial he was on trial for murder only without consideration of any lesser charges. That felt deliberate.
 
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BoardingDoc said:
Yes, this was exactly my point. My understanding is that in the Husel trial he was on trial for murder only without consideration of any lesser charges. That felt deliberate.
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As I said, there has to be "some evidence" to support the lesser charges.

What would that be? That he prescribed the medications without reflection? That he was reckless in not knowing the effects of the medications? He involuntarily prescribed the medications?

I just read about a murder case where a step-mother killed her 10 year old daughter, wrapped her in blankets and clothing, and put her in a garbage bag in the garage. She sent a text to her husband complaining about something the daughter did, and then 3 hours later sent him a text saying just "I may have a problem ..." The daughter was stabbed 50+ times and she was found by police in the garage 11 days later. She was convicted of capital murder, and received a sentence of life without parole.

Lesser offenses were not submitted to the jury because there was no evidence to support them: She didn't realize that stabbing a kid 50+ times would result in death? The three hours between when the daughter did something and stabbing her meant she suddenly snapped (despite taking precautions to eliminate blood splatter before she stabbed her)? If it was an "accident" why did she hide the body?

If there isn't "some evidence" to support a lesser verdict, the prosecution and/or the defense cannot have the jury consider it.
 
Vandalia said:
As I said, there has to be "some evidence" to support the lesser charges.

What would that be? That he prescribed the medications without reflection? That he was reckless in not knowing the effects of the medications? He involuntarily prescribed the medications?

I just read about a murder case where a step-mother killed her 10 year old daughter, wrapped her in blankets and clothing, and put her in a garbage bag in the garage. She sent a text to her husband complaining about something the daughter did, and then 3 hours later sent him a text saying just "I may have a problem ..." The daughter was stabbed 50+ times and she was found by police in the garage 11 days later. She was convicted of capital murder, and received a sentence of life without parole.

Lesser offenses were not submitted to the jury because there was no evidence to support them: She didn't realize that stabbing a kid 50+ times would result in death? The three hours between when the daughter did something and stabbing her meant she suddenly snapped (despite taking precautions to eliminate blood splatter before she stabbed her)? If it was an "accident" why did she hide the body?

If there isn't "some evidence" to support a lesser verdict, the prosecution and/or the defense cannot have the jury consider it.
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I don't think you understand my meaning. Husel was not charged with (or allowed to have considered as a charge) manslaughter which could very easily have been a charge. It's not a hard sell to say that he didn't murder those patients but that his "reckless" actions directly led to their death, hence the lesser charge.

Edit: and I answered my own question. The prosecution evidently did try to have the jury consider a lesser charge of "reckless murder" but that was successfully quashed by the defense who cited the need to prioritize comfort in terminally ill patients.

Source: attached
 

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I am not speaking specifically to this case, Floyd, or anything else.

There used to be higher standards for criminal charges for workers who put their lives on the lines where mistakes could result in death. I called it giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Now, it seems that standard is much lower and in no way would I ever going into law enforcement, or any first responder.

I am sure these paramedics screwed up but dealing with a psychotic pts on drugs is like dealing with someone with super human strength. I am not sure why the police didn't secure the pt in the proper position before they took him to the hospital.
 
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emergentmd said:
I am not speaking specifically to this case, Floyd, or anything else.

There used to be higher standards for criminal charges for workers who put their lives on the lines where mistakes could result in death. I called it giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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F$^# that. This wasn't a bad shoot where a split second ruined lives or a wrong med pushed that couldn't be fixed.

If killing helpless people slowly used to be ok, then the line needed to be moved. Memorializing the "good ol' days" when consequences only existed if the victim was rich and white feels especially inappropriate today.
 
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Police could have restrained each arm to the stretcher, EMS could have called Med control for 4 point restraints, EMS could have given Versed/Ketamine and released restraints when sedated.

Lots of could haves….

I don’t think the Medics intentionally tried to inflict harm. They probably wanted to scoop and run and let the ED deal with it. (Heck, they may have been scared to medicate, due to the previous bad EMS cases/arrests) But nobody should be placed prone on a stretcher, unless they have trauma to the buttocks/back
 
NYEMMED said:
Police could have restrained each arm to the stretcher, EMS could have called Med control for 4 point restraints, EMS could have given Versed/Ketamine and released restraints when sedated.

Lots of could haves….

I don’t think the Medics intentionally tried to inflict harm. They probably wanted to scoop and run and let the ED deal with it. (Heck, they may have been scared to medicate, due to the previous bad EMS cases/arrests) But nobody should be placed prone on a stretcher, unless they have trauma to the buttocks/back
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Dude was minimally conscious. Didn't need any form of restraint.
 
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Yeah, all sympathy goes out the window for these idiots after watching the video. You have a patient who is barely conscious, found passed out on the floor, and has to be lifted onto the stretcher, and you decide to strap him face down and not take vitals or do an even cursory assessment?

I get the concerns about the precedent reading the headlines, but this was already egregiously negligent care without even considering the prone positioning. I also, doubt they were trying to harm the patient, but they certainly did not give two s***s about his life. This is what end stage burnout, mixed with some stupidity looks like. I don’t think they will or should get a life sentence, but I don’t think some jail time is unreasonable given that this egregiously negligent behavior coupled with the job they do makes them a legitimate threat to society.
 
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How different would all of this been if the white trash at the beginning of the video didn't lead everyone on saying he's just in "alcohol withdrawal". It should have been ran as essentially an undifferentiated unresponsive male.
 
Rekt said:
How different would all of this been if the white trash at the beginning of the video didn't lead everyone on saying he's just in "alcohol withdrawal". It should have been ran as essentially an undifferentiated unresponsive male.
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You think that would have made the EMTs give a **** about the guy? Because alcohol withdrawal is a life threatening medical situation that should make an EMT provide care even if they judge him for his alcoholism. I also never see the cops relay that info to the EMTs either.
 
Also, the fact that the cops gave more of a **** about the guy than the EMTs when their time was the one being wasted (and for much longer than the EMTs)is pretty ****ing sad. Not that they cared enough to call the EMTs out on their lack of care.
 
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emergentmd said:
I am sure these paramedics screwed up but dealing with a psychotic pts on drugs is like dealing with someone with super human strength. I am not sure why the police didn't secure the pt in the proper position before they took him to the hospital.
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I think you need to see the video because that is not at all what happened.

Imagine you’ve got a guy overdosed on something like benzodiazepines to the point he can hardly stand. Have him lie face down on a stretcher. Then put a strap across his chest and pull it as tight as you can.
 
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