parents...driving...me...crazy!

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tatabox80

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Well, a few days ago, I had finally decided to apply to family practice residency...I had struggled all year with figuring out what I wanted to do. I've been feeling so happy since I made my decision. Well, I came home today and my mom calls me into to her room because she has to have a "very important conversation" with me. Apparently she went to a "prayer group" meeting where a number of primary care doctors had told her that since I am graduating from an american medical school, I'm basically wasting my time with applying to family practice. I'm guessing if they were american grads they wouldn't be picking primary care. They also mentioned how they don't make any money, and have to see 40 patients just to barely make it...which I find hard to believe🙄 Also they never see their families. This stressed me out slightly because any time I hear doctors moan and groan about compensation, it worries me, mostly because I'll have 200,000 in loans to pay back, and would eventually would like to trade in my 1997 150,000 mile cavalier for something a bit....nicer. Now, I was always under the impression that I could make somewhere of the ball park of 120-150K working about 5 days a week and would have a nice fulfilling career working in my local community....which I always felt was quite adequate. Sorry for such a long post, but I just need a little positive encouragement. Although I think it's important to hear disgruntled docs' point of view, it sometimes shakes me up a bit.....
 
tatabox80 said:
Well, a few days ago, I had finally decided to apply to family practice residency...I had struggled all year with figuring out what I wanted to do. I've been feeling so happy since I made my decision. Well, I came home today and my mom calls me into to her room because she has to have a "very important conversation" with me. Apparently she went to a "prayer group" meeting where a number of primary care doctors had told her that since I am graduating from an american medical school, I'm basically wasting my time with applying to family practice. I'm guessing if they were american grads they wouldn't be picking primary care. They also mentioned how they don't make any money, and have to see 40 patients just to barely make it...which I find hard to believe🙄 Also they never see their families. This stressed me out slightly because any time I hear doctors moan and groan about compensation, it worries me, mostly because I'll have 200,000 in loans to pay back, and would eventually would like to trade in my 1997 150,000 mile cavalier for something a bit....nicer. Now, I was always under the impression that I could make somewhere of the ball park of 120-150K working about 5 days a week and would have a nice fulfilling career working in my local community....which I always felt was quite adequate. Sorry for such a long post, but I just need a little positive encouragement. Although I think it's important to hear disgruntled docs' point of view, it sometimes shakes me up a bit.....
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Salaries in fp are based on where you work(geography), what procedures you do and whether or not you do ob as part of your practice.
natl avg for fp is around 140k.
in my neck of the woods with several fp residencies in the area the range is more like 90-120 without ob, 110-160 with ob.
the more procedures you do in the office(minor derm, colposcopy, treadmills, vasectomy, etc) the more you will make. I have worked at 2 fp residencies in the past and keep in touch with many of the residency grads. they are all employed and happy with their choice of fp. if I go back to school at some point I will likely do fp for all the options it gives: rural er, fp clinic, hospitalist, urgent care, etc
 
You'll find unhappy people in every field. You're an adult, and can form your own opinions. You may need to remind your Mom of that fact (nicely, of course). 😉
 
Tatabox,

I don't have any answers for you, because I struggle with the same thing myself, and I think most of us who are brave enough to admit we want to do FP all deal with this.

Ultimately, your mom is not going to go to work every day and do your job, you are. This might be a great opportunity to help her cut the old apron strings a bit, to help her understand that your happiness is in YOUR hands now, not hers.

The other important thing to remember is that you and I and our classmates have NEVER known what it's like to not have managed care. It's like kids now have no idea what it's like not to grow up with computers. I didn't grow up with computers (unless you count that KayPro word processor my dad bought in the 80s 😉 )....my point is, we didn't know the Good Old Days of doctoring. This is our world, and frankly, I think our expectations are lower. But on the other hand, I think those of us who truly choose primary care today are doing so for all the right reasons. We know we won't get super rich. That's not the point.

The reasons you stated for wanting to do FP are all completely reasonable and I think you WILL be able to make a fine living, being a really vital part of your community, and that you will enjoy your job.

Try to imagine yourself doing something else. Really visualize it, plan out your life and lifestyle. Then do the same thing with FP. What does your gut say?

Best of luck. Feel free to vent anytime--we have all been there. 🙂
 
sophiejane said:
Tatabox,

I don't have any answers for you, because I struggle with the same thing myself, and I think most of us who are brave enough to admit we want to do FP all deal with this.

Ultimately, your mom is not going to go to work every day and do your job, you are. This might be a great opportunity to help her cut the old apron strings a bit, to help her understand that your happiness is in YOUR hands now, not hers.

The other important thing to remember is that you and I and our classmates have NEVER known what it's like to not have managed care. It's like kids now have no idea what it's like not to grow up with computers. I didn't grow up with computers (unless you count that KayPro word processor my dad bought in the 80s 😉 )....my point is, we didn't know the Good Old Days of doctoring. This is our world, and frankly, I think our expectations are lower. But on the other hand, I think those of us who truly choose primary care today are doing so for all the right reasons. We know we won't get super rich. That's not the point.

The reasons you stated for wanting to do FP are all completely reasonable and I think you WILL be able to make a fine living, being a really vital part of your community, and that you will enjoy your job.

Try to imagine yourself doing something else. Really visualize it, plan out your life and lifestyle. Then do the same thing with FP. What does your gut say?

Best of luck. Feel free to vent anytime--we have all been there. 🙂
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I told my parents yesterday that I'm the one that has to go into work in the morning, not the disgruntled docs she met yesterday. I think what annoys me the most is that I was previously having a tough decision deciding between picking fp and psych and my parents were trying their best to convince me not to go into psych and to pick fp. After ignoring them for a while and really thinking about what I want in life, I decided on fp. I had finally made up my mind and now, and everyone including my parents were happy...until my mother talked to these doctors. My parents' point was that I am "idealistic" and that when I'm 50 some years old my perspective will be different. To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone can really know if they have made the right decision on whether or not they've chosen the right field until they've practiced medicine for a while. For me, I'm going with my gut on family practice. It seems like the best fit for me, and I was extremely happy on my fp rotation. Hopefully it turns out ok in the end.
 
tatabox80 said:
I told my parents yesterday that I'm the one that has to go into work in the morning, not the disgruntled docs she met yesterday. I think what annoys me the most is that I was previously having a tough decision deciding between picking fp and psych and my parents were trying their best to convince me not to go into psych and to pick fp. After ignoring them for a while and really thinking about what I want in life, I decided on fp. I had finally made up my mind and now, and everyone including my parents were happy...until my mother talked to these doctors. My parents' point was that I am "idealistic" and that when I'm 50 some years old my perspective will be different. To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone can really know if they have made the right decision on whether or not they've chosen the right field until they've practiced medicine for a while. For me, I'm going with my gut on family practice. It seems like the best fit for me, and I was extremely happy on my fp rotation. Hopefully it turns out ok in the end.
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Funny that your parents mention "idealistic" as if it were a bad thing. Its been my experience that the people most successful in primary care strike me as being the most "idealistic" as well. It sounds like the people who are discouraging you from primary care are burnt out in their own professions.

Medicine is far too demanding on your time and emotions too approach as a money-making venture. You need to constantly re-examine what you enjoy about your job and what you think your role is in taking care of patients. This is why every medical school and residency wants to see a personal statement, so they know you've thought about these demands and are capable of tackling them based on your motivation to fulfill your "idealistic" desires, not your financial ones. You will get burnt out if you focus too much on the latter.

Keep in ind that your mother will never stop worrying about you, that is what they do best. Financially, you'll be fine in Family Medicine. The median income in this country is well below $100K. Alot is determined by how you handle the money you make, how you invest, how much you save, etc...

It sounds like you're on the right track. Best of luck.
 
I don't think this is very accurate. Unless they are working part time or 4 days a week.

I have been looking at job listings on several sites to follow trends and I have not seen any offering 90 to 110 K a year. The lowest I've seen is 120 plus production and all benefits including malpractice insurance.

Anyway, Based on what you said about wanting to work in a community and making 120 to 150, that is about what FP will be like. About those stories about 40 patients per day, some are true.

About your 200K loan. That's about 1200 to 1400 per month for about 20 years.

lets see 150 after taxes is about = 95000 roughly divided by 12 = 7916 per month minus 1400 = 6516 dollars left over for that car, home, kids, travel, savings, etc.

The above are the real facts. Now, you can make your own decision and may have to nicely (like Kent) stated tell your Mother you are an adult.

You may even tell her that and still choose to do something else.

Good luck.
 
my family is kind of opposite, not that they really care which specialty I was going to pick, when I told them EM, they were like but don't you want to be a real doctor and have a clinic. I almost vomited.
 
JackBauERfan said:
my family is kind of opposite, not that they really care which specialty I was going to pick, when I told them EM, they were like but don't you want to be a real doctor and have a clinic. I almost vomited.
Click to expand...

Obviously, they have no idea what it's like in EM these days. 😉
 
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Money shouldn't be an issue but it will depnd on where you want to practice. The established FPs where I live (Midwest, pop 75000) make $250-300K. The starting salaries are $150-200K and one clinic in a smaller town (pop 8500) is offering a $110K signing bonus.
 
I have a friend practicing primary care full time in NJ right outside of NYC and she makes $110k. I don't think that is unusual in some urban areas.
 
Money should always be an issue.

It's not the only issue. But when I hear someone say money should not be an issue, I want to tell them "Were you born yesterday" so I will.

Were you born yesterday?

When you have student loans and bills and kids and everything else, how can someone say money should not be an issue.

It's not the only issue but is weights in the same as everything else like quality of life, interest in specialty etc.

You have to find the right balance.

If you go into fP and get a job making 90k a year and have a student loan of 200K, your going to be hurting for long time. That loan is going to make it difficult to get a good mortgage or a good rate on a car etc.

Funny thing, the bankers like to look at this thing called loan to income ratios.


WAKE Up.
 
erichaj said:
Money should always be an issue.
Click to expand...

Money is more a factor of the job you take, not the specialty you pursue.

if you don't want to "only" make $110K in FM, don't take a job that only pays $110K...find a job that pays $200K. They're out there.

Generally speaking, of course, the people who earn more work more. You have to decide what's important to you.
 
erichaj said:
Money should always be an issue.

It's not the only issue. But when I hear someone say money should not be an issue, I want to tell them "Were you born yesterday" so I will.

Were you born yesterday?

When you have student loans and bills and kids and everything else, how can someone say money should not be an issue.

It's not the only issue but is weights in the same as everything else like quality of life, interest in specialty etc.

You have to find the right balance.

If you go into fP and get a job making 90k a year and have a student loan of 200K, your going to be hurting for long time. That loan is going to make it difficult to get a good mortgage or a good rate on a car etc.

Funny thing, the bankers like to look at this thing called loan to income ratios.


WAKE Up.
Click to expand...


I am wide awake. Read the post again. You misread it. I didn't say money ISN'T an issue. Of course it is. I said money SHOULDN'T be an issue but it will depend on where you want to practice. As in there is plenty to be made in FP if you're in the right area so don't believe the myth that there isn't good money in FP.


Taking a PF position that pays $90K would make be question your decision making skills. There is plenty of money to be made in FP and if you choose to take a lower paying position, it's your fault. Just a little bit of advice - You don't GET a job making $90K, you ACCEPT a job making $90K.
 
My family did the same thing when I told them I wanted to do FP. I think my parents secretly thought I was going to pay for their retirement. It doesn't help that my brother-in-law is a spinal neuro surgeon and rolled in 1.8 million last year(no I'm not kidding, that's why spine is the most lucrative field in medicine). But of course he did a 7 year residency and a 1 year fellowship in spine.
Anyway I just said that is the field of medicine that makes me happy and I told them if they don't treat me right it'll be the cardboard diapers in the nursing home(J/K). Parents are funny, if you don't have kids yet you'll see when ya do(I've got two), and you worry a ton about them. Parents I think just want to make sure your gonna be happy.
FP is awesome, you can do what you want from laser hair removal to colonoscopy to OB etc. Making money in FP is alot about buisness sense. The guy I worked with took home(after all his overhead) 180K a year. He did only worked from 7-5 5 days a week with call q6-q7 and every 6th or 7th weekend. We usually saw between 25-30 pt's a day, with various procedures.
Anyway good luck and know most people downplay FP but I had a general surgeon and a cardiothoracic surgeon say that FP's do way more for pt's over all health then they do
 
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't the average code payout about ~$55. If you see 40 pt's doesn't equate to about ~$1500/day. Now minus the expenses I think an FP will make out good in private practice.
 
bkpa2med said:
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't the average code payout about ~$55. If you see 40 pt's doesn't equate to about ~$1500/day. Now minus the expenses I think an FP will make out good in private practice.
Click to expand...

Average code (99213) paid by medicare is about $60. With EMR's I find myself coding 99214 more (pays about $105). The most accurate salary survey, by MGMA, pegs family physicians in 2005 as making avg salary of $169k range.

Any FP resident who accepts a $90k job is an idiot and deserves that low pay. Just for kicks, I browsed the AFP magazine job section and none offered less than $120k. The 90k-100k myth is just that, a myth. None of the family dr friends I have, and I have many, make less than $150k. Most, like me 😀 , make much, much more.
 
FamilyMD said:
The 90k-100k myth is just that, a myth. None of the family dr friends I have, and I have many, make less than $150k. Most, like me 😀 , make much, much more.
Click to expand...

It warms my heart to see the MUCH more statement. FM appeals to me on so many levels it would be great to not have to worry about money (as in student loans!). I'm more than happy with anything over 150 or even "just" 150K.
 
A lot of you have brought up paying back your student loans, so I have a question. Have any of you looked at getting a hospital to pay off your loans? The reason I ask this is because the hospital I worked at before I got into medical school told me that they would pay off my loans if I came back to that hospital. The first words out of her mouth were also "Are you going to do family practice, because we need some FP doctors?" I even had an orthopaedic surgeon that I worked with tell me that he would pay off my loans if I chose to do orthopaedics and come back to his practice. That's a pretty damn good offer too, because he has the largest solo practice in the mid-south.
 
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I used to date the daughter of an FP doc, he offered to repay 50% of my loans if I became an FP or IM doc and I worked with him for two years and then he would hand over his practice to me (since he would be ready to retire) I told him I'd rather have my balls gnawed on by a half-starved, rabid Rottweiler than become a primary care doc.
 
KentW said:
So, what happened with the daughter? 😉
Click to expand...
Oh, hell, we broke up back several years ago....last I heard she flunked out of nursing school. I saw her dad at the hospital last year and he told me that the offer still stands "if I ever come to my senses".
 
KentW said:
Money is more a factor of the job you take, not the specialty you pursue.

if you don't want to "only" make $110K in FM, don't take a job that only pays $110K...find a job that pays $200K. They're out there.

Generally speaking, of course, the people who earn more work more. You have to decide what's important to you.
Click to expand...


I agree. but it's still a factor right?

when people say it "should" not be an issue. That makes no sense.
 
iatrosB said:
Then you'll hate >85% of emergency medicine practice.
Click to expand...

Plus, in EM, there's the chance that he might actually get his balls gnawed on by a half-starved, rabid Rottweiler (or a PCP-crazed addict who thinks he's one). In my office, that's pretty unlikely. 😉
 
erichaj said:
I agree. but it's still a factor right?

when people say it "should" not be an issue. That makes no sense.
Click to expand...

It's always an issue, but it shouldn't be a limitation. There's a good living to be had in primary care if you do it right. I'm not going to try to tell someone else how much money it should take to make them happy, however...that's an individual thing.
 
KentW said:
Plus, in EM, there's the chance that he might actually get his balls gnawed on by a half-starved, rabid Rottweiler (or a PCP-crazed addict who thinks he's one). In my office, that's pretty unlikely. 😉
Click to expand...

:laugh:
 
Hi, I'm a recruiter for a community health center and what you hoped for is absolutely correct. Our FP's, fresh out of school, can make about $120-125k their first year. After that its based on a productivity standard but a motivated provider can make up to $150+ depending on how much they want to work. We have a standard 5 day work week too.

There are less and less family practice physicians out there so I hope you stay the course!

Good luck.
 
GLopez said:
Hi, I'm a recruiter for a community health center and what you hoped for is absolutely correct. Our FP's, fresh out of school, can make about $120-125k their first year. After that its based on a productivity standard but a motivated provider can make up to $150+ depending on how much they want to work. We have a standard 5 day work week too.

There are less and less family practice physicians out there so I hope you stay the course!

Good luck.
Click to expand...


Loan repayment?
 
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iatrosB said:
Loan repayment?
Click to expand...

I think loan repayment is overrated. You still get taxed on this money as if it were income. Personally, I'd rather have the option of choosing how I invest this money myself, since I'm paying taxes on it.
 
McDoctor said:
I think loan repayment is overrated. You still get taxed on this money as if it were income. Personally, I'd rather have the option of choosing how I invest this money myself, since I'm paying taxes on it.
Click to expand...

Good point, but to get a higher return on my money then I am paying on some of my loans, I would have to go with pretty high risk investments. Call me practical, since I don't think I could get a better return than I am paying, I'd put it toward the high interest loan. If you're lucky enough to have loans under 6%, good for you, I'd invest in that case.
 
GLopez said:
Hi, I'm a recruiter for a community health center and what you hoped for is absolutely correct. Our FP's, fresh out of school, can make about $120-125k their first year. After that its based on a productivity standard but a motivated provider can make up to $150+ depending on how much they want to work. We have a standard 5 day work week too.

There are less and less family practice physicians out there so I hope you stay the course!

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Merritt (country's largest physician recruiter) is reporting FP's are now in the GREATEST demand out of ALL specialties. This with the coming rise in CMS's work RVU for E&M's spell out great times for FP's. Stay the course!
 
thats crazy hopefully thats not true at all that an FP makes 90000 thats kind of an insult, most that I know of easily make 150- 170000 - well in actuality not easily, seeing 30 to 40 patients plus hospital, thats not very easy, but definitely not 90K all of that hard work, theres hopefully no way that that amount is accurate man that 90-110 K that sounds like the extreme low side to me, something must not be going right as far as the practice goes and compenstation.
 
andwhat said:
thats crazy hopefully thats not true at all that an FP makes 90000 thats kind of an insult, most that I know of easily make 150- 170000 - well in actuality not easily, seeing 30 to 40 patients plus hospital, thats not very easy, but definitely not 90K all of that hard work, theres hopefully no way that that amount is accurate man that 90-110 K that sounds like the extreme low side to me, something must not be going right as far as the practice goes and compenstation.
Click to expand...

these are all multispecialty groups and those #s are for new grads. a friend of mine with 3 yrs working fp after residency was just offered 120k for 40 hr week with q3 phone call from home and no ob or inpt work by one of these groups. new grads are frequently offered 90-110k around here and they want to stay in the areaa so they take it. the place that offers 90k is a community health clinic(nhsc site).there are 3 fp residencies in this area so the area is pretty saturated with new grads.the fp docs working urgent care here make around 140k/yr( 60/hr with extra for nights and 6-8k production once/yr)
 
emedpa said:
these are all multispecialty groups and those #s are for new grads. a friend of mine with 3 yrs working fp after residency was just offered 120k for 40 hr week with q3 phone call from home and no ob or inpt work by one of these groups. new grads are frequently offered 90-110k around here and they want to stay in the areaa so they take it. the place that offers 90k is a community health clinic(nhsc site).there are 3 fp residencies in this area so the area is pretty saturated with new grads.the fp docs working urgent care here make around 140k/yr( 60/hr with extra for nights and 6-8k production once/yr)
Click to expand...


cool.... a few of the graduate FP residents that I know of either start out at 120 or 150 K in smaller areas. thats the midwest though.. yeah I guess like you said it is supply and demand, and saturation.
 
Well, I would rather dislike 85% of EM, than 100% of FP. At least there's something interesting in EM. Besides, I'm beginning to think of something other than EM as a career option.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
I used to date the daughter of an FP doc, he offered to repay 50% of my loans if I became an FP or IM doc and I worked with him for two years and then he would hand over his practice to me (since he would be ready to retire) I told him I'd rather have my balls gnawed on by a half-starved, rabid Rottweiler than become a primary care doc.
Click to expand...

So I gather you are now single but have your balls intact. Lonely yet whole.😀
 
GLopez said:
Hi, I'm a recruiter for a community health center and what you hoped for is absolutely correct. Our FP's, fresh out of school, can make about $120-125k their first year. After that its based on a productivity standard but a motivated provider can make up to $150+ depending on how much they want to work. We have a standard 5 day work week too.

There are less and less family practice physicians out there so I hope you stay the course!

Good luck.
Click to expand...

HaHa, Nice tag for yourself. But most these guys won't be coming your way for several years. lol
 
bkpa2med said:
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't the average code payout about ~$55. If you see 40 pt's doesn't equate to about ~$1500/day. Now minus the expenses I think an FP will make out good in private practice.
Click to expand...

Medicare has an average 99213 of 55 dollars. Private insurance is about 15 to 20 dollars higher depending on the insurance.

99214 is significantly higher and most physician undercode.

I think the average FP over the next 5 to 10 years will make around 170 to 200K. If you don't have a huge medical school loan, then you will do well. If you do have a huge loan, consider that loan as part of your decision making when you decide on a residency. If your ok with what you will have left over after you make your loan payments then it is a mute point and other issues will help you choose or not choose FP.
 
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Seriously, I'm thinking about anesthesia, radiology, interventional cards, rad onc, ophthalmology, critical care medicine, hem/onc, ENT, or neonatology.
 
Wow you've really narrowed it down. 🙂
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Seriously, I'm thinking about anesthesia, radiology, interventional cards, rad onc, ophthalmology, critical care medicine, hem/onc, ENT, or neonatology.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm glad you've narrowed it down. 😉

Edit: SkyPilot - Look at that, simultaneous posts! What are the odds?
 
GLopez said:
Hi, I'm a recruiter for a community health center and what you hoped for is absolutely correct. Our FP's, fresh out of school, can make about $120-125k their first year. After that its based on a productivity standard but a motivated provider can make up to $150+ depending on how much they want to work. We have a standard 5 day work week too.

There are less and less family practice physicians out there so I hope you stay the course!

Good luck.
Click to expand...

So what your saying is that if i work my tail off I can make "up to 150." That does not sound promising.

My friend who makes 110k in upstate NJ works hard for that 110k.
 
Well, I'm glad you've narrowed it down. 😉
Click to expand...

I narrowed it down based upon three things:
1. They actually seem at least mildly challenging and interesting enough to hold my ADD-addled attention.
2. They pay something resembling what I think I should make as a doc.
3. They aren't basically open admissions to anyone who just happens to possess an MD or DO, a pulse, a core temperature above ambient, and supratentorial function (unlike some "specialties").
 
Does anyone know what the average salary for fp's in NE ohio is by any chance?
 
DropkickMurphy said:
They aren't basically open admissions to anyone who just happens to possess an MD or DO, a pulse, a core temperature above ambient, and supratentorial function (unlike some "specialties").
Click to expand...

Hey, no talking smack about internal medicine here. 😉
 
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