Partnership versus non-Partnership tracts

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Interesting discussion. In order to get something of use out of this: what is a job-seeker to do?

The trend towards mergers and consolidation will continue. If the practice is lucrative it will be purchased. Period. Hospitals want it, senior partners want it, Obama wants it.

The question becomes what is the long term outcome of this consolidation?. Supposing that the majority of new graduates can only find salaried jobs or "B" partnerships (B=bull****), fast forward ten years when all the original "A" partners are retired and all that is left are salaried folks (MDs and CRNAs) then what? My guess is that they'll be a lot of turnover. Not sure if that will really matter to anyone.

Lots of residents want to know what the future will be and there are a lot of folks on these boards who claim to know the answer. I don't think anyone really does. There are a lot of people claiming this is exactly what happened with the HMO revolution and eventually that faded away back to fee-for-service. I don't think Obamacare is going anywhere and perhaps a salaried position isn't such an awful thing.

My advice is do a fellowship in what you like, try positioning yourself as a consultant. If you can go somewhere less populated, you will get a better job. If you can't or don't want to then a salaried gig might be the next best thing. If it has to be a salaried gig then, make it at the best practice you can find. Sometimes the AMCs get kicked out and the hospital retains docs they like. If you are offered a partnership, vet the practice thoroughly. Oh, and keep your expenses low until you have no debt.

I agree that really nobody knows exactly what is going to happen but I can tell you the following: The individual anesthesiologist is dead. We are now widgets. We are seen in 10-20 block pieces that are moved around. Yes a fellowship is good advice but where does it end? when everyone does a fellowship, then you are going to have to do another fellowship to distinguish yourself until anesthesia residency is 6-7 years. CMON? I think to make our specialty viable we need to merge with either Internal Medicine or Emergency medicine. Make it a 5 year program double boarded and things will be fine. Fellowships aside from pain and critical care are not even necessary.

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I think this specialty is on the verge of some dramatic changes, which are necessary in my humble opinion. The notion that we can just provide intraoperative care of surgical patients and survive as a specialty is obsolete. The specialty as a whole needs to expand the scope of practice, and alter the postgraduate educational structure accordingly, such that every graduating anesthesiology resident is viewed as a perioperative physician--i.e., as an expert on the preoperative, intraoperative, and postoperative care of surgical patients. At the very least, I think this will require additional residency training.

This additional training may involve some kind of hybridization of critical care, internal medicine, and anesthesiology training. Perioperative physicians, from my perspective, should be some kind of amalgam of an internist, an intensivist, and an anesthesiologist (with expertise in airway management, lines, regional, etc.). To achieve this goal, we may need to extend the residency training out to 5 or 6 years. This would suck, obviously, but it may be necessary to cement our role in health care as the go-to experts on perioperative medicine.

This is how we can demonstrate value. It's how we can, without any question in my mind, differentiate ourselves from militant CRNAs trying to demonstrate "equivalence" through bs studies. CRNAs will never be able to run an ICU or a stepdown unit. No surgeon would refer their patients to a CRNA for optimization prior to surgery. These things are important and we, as anesthesiologists, are in a unique position to assume a leadership role in these areas.

Pain medicine should probably become a separate residency altogether. It's a different animal entirely.

Just my $0.02:cool:
 
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I think this specialty is on the verge of some dramatic changes, which are necessary in my humble opinion. The notion that we can just provide intraoperative care of surgical patients and survive as a specialty is obsolete. The specialty as a whole needs to expand the scope of practice, and alter the postgraduate educational structure accordingly, such that every graduating anesthesiology resident is viewed as a perioperative physician--i.e., as an expert on the preoperative, intraoperative, and postoperative care of surgical patients. At the very least, I think this will require additional residency training.

This additional training may involve some kind of hybridization of critical care, internal medicine, and anesthesiology training. Perioperative physicians, from my perspective, should be some kind of amalgam of an internist, an intensivist, and an anesthesiologist (with expertise in airway management, lines, regional, etc.). To achieve this goal, we may need to extend the residency training out to 5 or 6 years. This would suck, obviously, but it may be necessary to cement our role in health care as the go-to experts on perioperative medicine.

This is how we can demonstrate value. It's how we can, without any question in my mind, differentiate ourselves from militant CRNAs trying to demonstrate "equivalence" through bs studies. CRNAs will never be able to run an ICU or a stepdown unit. No surgeon would refer their patients to a CRNA for optimization prior to surgery. These things are important and we, as anesthesiologists, are in a unique position to assume a leadership role in these areas.

Pain medicine should probably become a separate residency altogether. It's a different animal entirely.

Just my $0.02:cool:

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Members don't see this ad :)
I think this specialty is on the verge of some dramatic changes, which are necessary in my humble opinion. The notion that we can just provide intraoperative care of surgical patients and survive as a specialty is obsolete. The specialty as a whole needs to expand the scope of practice, and alter the postgraduate educational structure accordingly, such that every graduating anesthesiology resident is viewed as a perioperative physician--i.e., as an expert on the preoperative, intraoperative, and postoperative care of surgical patients. At the very least, I think this will require additional residency training.

This additional training may involve some kind of hybridization of critical care, internal medicine, and anesthesiology training. Perioperative physicians, from my perspective, should be some kind of amalgam of an internist, an intensivist, and an anesthesiologist (with expertise in airway management, lines, regional, etc.). To achieve this goal, we may need to extend the residency training out to 5 or 6 years. This would suck, obviously, but it may be necessary to cement our role in health care as the go-to experts on perioperative medicine.

This is how we can demonstrate value. It's how we can, without any question in my mind, differentiate ourselves from militant CRNAs trying to demonstrate "equivalence" through bs studies. CRNAs will never be able to run an ICU or a stepdown unit. No surgeon would refer their patients to a CRNA for optimization prior to surgery. These things are important and we, as anesthesiologists, are in a unique position to assume a leadership role in these areas.

Pain medicine should probably become a separate residency altogether. It's a different animal entirely.

Just my $0.02:cool:

This is almost verbatim (minus the part about increasing the actual residency length, though I suppose it's implied) what I heard explicitly stated by either the Chair or PD at all the big name academic institutions I've interviewed at (Vandy, Duke, MGH, etc.)

Kind of a scary time to be entering the game. Things are obviously changing, and who knows how the specialty will evolve over the next four (five) years. And it's not like this has been some big mystery brewing behind closed doors for the last decade, so I assume those of us that are still left applying just really love gas. But it would be quite a bucket of cold water to face to find out half way through your residency (or right before you graduate :eek:) that the specialty is making a radical shift like that (ie internist/intensivist/anesthesiologist) and your training hasn't really prepared you for that new world. Makes those big academic places seem all that more attractive since they have already started moving their feet in that direction as regards residency training (or at least it seems that way, relative to other places I visited).
 
I think this specialty is on the verge of some dramatic changes, which are necessary in my humble opinion. The notion that we can just provide intraoperative care of surgical patients and survive as a specialty is obsolete. The specialty as a whole needs to expand the scope of practice, and alter the postgraduate educational structure accordingly, such that every graduating anesthesiology resident is viewed as a perioperative physician--i.e., as an expert on the preoperative, intraoperative, and postoperative care of surgical patients. At the very least, I think this will require additional residency training.

This additional training may involve some kind of hybridization of critical care, internal medicine, and anesthesiology training. Perioperative physicians, from my perspective, should be some kind of amalgam of an internist, an intensivist, and an anesthesiologist (with expertise in airway management, lines, regional, etc.). To achieve this goal, we may need to extend the residency training out to 5 or 6 years. This would suck, obviously, but it may be necessary to cement our role in health care as the go-to experts on perioperative medicine.

This is how we can demonstrate value. It's how we can, without any question in my mind, differentiate ourselves from militant CRNAs trying to demonstrate "equivalence" through bs studies. CRNAs will never be able to run an ICU or a stepdown unit. No surgeon would refer their patients to a CRNA for optimization prior to surgery. These things are important and we, as anesthesiologists, are in a unique position to assume a leadership role in these areas.

Pain medicine should probably become a separate residency altogether. It's a different animal entirely.

Just my $0.02:cool:

That's the only part I agree with.

People who think we are going to be perioperative physicians are delusional.
 
This is almost verbatim (minus the part about increasing the actual residency length, though I suppose it's implied) what I heard explicitly stated by either the Chair or PD at all the big name academic institutions I've interviewed at (Vandy, Duke, MGH, etc.)

Kind of a scary time to be entering the game. Things are obviously changing, and who knows how the specialty will evolve over the next four (five) years. And it's not like this has been some big mystery brewing behind closed doors for the last decade, so I assume those of us that are still left applying just really love gas. But it would be quite a bucket of cold water to face to find out half way through your residency (or right before you graduate :eek:) that the specialty is making a radical shift like that (ie internist/intensivist/anesthesiologist) and your training hasn't really prepared you for that new world. Makes those big academic places seem all that more attractive since they have already started moving their feet in that direction as regards residency training (or at least it seems that way, relative to other places I visited).

I heard similar things at a few programs I applied at last year. In a way there ARE some valid points.... HOWEVER I think that's a defeatist attitude, one that implies that we ARE NOT ALREADY differentiated enough from the CRNAs. It's basically forfeiting that they are equivalent and that we need MORE training to be better. Programs/leadership that have that viewpoint didn't instil trust or confidence, especially if those same programs had prominent CRNA armies (or SRNAs) on site. It simply made me worry that my own program wouldn't be looking out for me or the specialty if they are already sold on CRNAs. It's depressing actually. I wanted to be at a program that is fighting, not conceding.
 
Makes those big academic places seem all that more attractive since they have already started moving their feet in that direction as regards residency training (or at least it seems that way, relative to other places I visited).

How has ANY big name program significantly changed anything to prepare you for the "future"? All talk no action. Maybe you have a new dedicated pre op month instead of an elective. Wow!
No matter what they want, significant change will take a decade or more. It took a decade for them to approve pediatric subspecialty board certification. 10 years... for a test (that we write ourselves), a title, and wall plaque.
 
I heard similar things at a few programs I applied at last year. In a way there ARE some valid points.... HOWEVER I think that's a defeatist attitude, one that implies that we ARE NOT ALREADY differentiated enough from the CRNAs. It's basically forfeiting that they are equivalent and that we need MORE training to be better. Programs/leadership that have that viewpoint didn't instil trust or confidence, especially if those same programs had prominent CRNA armies (or SRNAs) on site. It simply made me worry that my own program wouldn't be looking out for me or the specialty if they are already sold on CRNAs. It's depressing actually. I wanted to be at a program that is fighting, not conceding.

I absolutely want that too. And I really don't want to end up at a place that won't encourage its residents to pursue private practice after four years, if that's what they want. Just not sure where that can be found since it seems like all the programs that we are told over and over are the top end programs seem to have all gotten together and decided this is the way they want to proceed. And I agree with ID that it's probably all smoke and mirrors when you are there for interview day, but that's all most of us have got to go on. That being said, I appreciate the response since I'll freely admit I don't have the first clue about the logistics/politics of altering residency training.
 
I absolutely want that too. And I really don't want to end up at a place that won't encourage its residents to pursue private practice after four years, if that's what they want. Just not sure where that can be found since it seems like all the programs that we are told over and over are the top end programs seem to have all gotten together and decided this is the way they want to proceed. And I agree with ID that it's probably all smoke and mirrors when you are there for interview day, but that's all most of us have got to go on. That being said, I appreciate the response since I'll freely admit I don't have the first clue about the logistics/politics of altering residency training.

You think they are looking out for your interests or theirs?
 
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Point well taken. I've had this conversation with a lot of other M4s on the interview trail, and I'm not trying to drink the kool-aid just yet. And I definitely don't want anesthesiology to undergo some massive transformation. But what I can't seem to figure out is what to do about it, since all of the places that are regarded as being top tier places for residency training seem have this mindset coming from the top down. (I realize this whole "top tier" thing might just be a stupid bias I have as a fourth year medical student who can only see the pretty colors and flashing lights, but having no other way to go about it, I applied based on location and reputation.)

If you believe them, choose a different specialty.
 
i have not been burned. Wont let myself be burned..... Keep paying those ASA dues my friend. And of course state dues on top of that. The president of the ASA was a CRNA now. Good times ahead :)

Yes you have.

:flame:

You have a lot to learn, and I mean no harm by that.

The president of the ASA has spoken on the big deficiencies btw CRNA's and MD(notA's).- BEEING A CRNA (turned MD) HERSELF. She has stared at it in the face and knows the difference. Admittedly "they don't know what they don't know"... but that isn't the point of this post, is it?

Carry on.
 
In my group you have no buy in BTW.

i don't know why bala was banned but what he says is much closer to reality where i live (very big US city) than what you describe, sevo. finding groups that are known to be "fair" is rare. it's quite depressing and has me turned off this field altogether. btw, i love adventure time!
 
i don't know why bala was banned but what he says is much closer to reality where i live (very big US city) than what you describe, sevo. finding groups that are known to be "fair" is rare. it's quite depressing and has me turned off this field altogether. btw, i love adventure time!

I know it can be very frustrating and disheartening, but good groups do exist. Unfortunately, the nature of many groups is to feed off the new grads. Not cool.
A supportive, friendly group of well educated MDs that enjoy each others company is key.
When you interview for a job, remember you are interviewing them as well.
Ask them to see the books, ask about super partners, etc. If it doesn't sound right, then move on to something you do like. This may mean leaving a big city, unfortunately.
BTW, being a hospital employee (should) mean that you are on equal ground with your partners. Make sure your contract deliniates those specifics if you go that route.

Keep your head up and find your corner in anesthesia. :)
 
The president of the ASA has spoken on the big deficiencies btw CRNA's and MD(notA's).- BEEING A CRNA (turned MD) HERSELF. She has stared at it in the face and knows the difference. Admittedly "they don't know what they don't know"... but that isn't the point of this post, is it?

.


That's fine and dandy but the $64k question is WHAT IS THE ASA GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? I'll spare you the suspense by answering that question now:

NOTHING.
 
That's fine and dandy but the $64k question is WHAT IS THE ASA GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? I'll spare you the suspense by answering that question now:

NOTHING.

If you were ASA president just what exactly would you do?
 
That's fine and dandy but the $64k question is WHAT IS THE ASA GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? I'll spare you the suspense by answering that question now:

NOTHING.

Perhaps. I find comfort in the fact that we have a former CRNA that pursued further training. In doing so, she has realized the massive gaps between CRNA's and Anesthesiologists. Def. a proponent. :thumbup:

This is a political fight that has been going on for decades. Nothing will be solved over night and many compromises will unfortunately need to be made (especially with Obama).

Some leadership is better than no leadership.
 
If you were ASA president just what exactly would you do?

Do what the AANA is doing - a massive public relations campaign emphasizing the education and training that anesthesiologists have. Highlight the potential dangers of surgery and why an anesthesiologist should be involved in EVERY anesthetic. Do a media blitz discrediting the sham studies sponsored by the AANA. ADVERTISE our expertise; get it out to the public. Not this bull_****, sitting quietly by, being "professional" and doing nothing while idiots like Debra Molina disrespect anesthesiologists in journals.

To paraphrase The Godfather....we need a war time ASA...not a group of academicians who benefit from "playing nice" with low level providers and don't want to "make waves." Eff that noise, do something. Throw your full support behind AA's.
 
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