Pass/Fail and Step 1 Scores

[Dbate]

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Are pass/fail curriculums worse for students?

In terms of preparation for Step 1, how do most students feel pass/fail curriculum approaches impact preparation for the exam. I have heard that some people are less inclined to study in the preclinical years because of this--which could end up coming back to bite them when it comes to take the exam.



I'm interested in a surgical specialty, so my Step scores are going to be really important (although I know people's interests change all the time). So this is a factor I am thinking about when it comes to choosing medical schools.

Do you think that pass/fail is worse than traditional grades for preparation for Step 1?

 

[mdeast]

Are pass/fail curriculums worse for students?

In terms of preparation for Step 1, how do most students feel pass/fail curriculum approaches impact preparation for the exam. I have heard that some people are less inclined to study in the preclinical years because of this--which could end up coming back to bite them when it comes to take the exam.



I'm interested in a surgical specialty, so my Step scores are going to be really important (although I know people's interests change all the time). So this is a factor I am thinking about when it comes to choosing medical schools.

Do you think that pass/fail is worse than traditional grades for preparation for Step 1?

Short answer: No.

 

[coffeesnob]

My school is pass/fail for the pre-clinical years but then we have class ranking (which takes into account pre-clinical grades). So everyone is working really, really hard. If my school was purely pass/fail, I would not be working as hard as I am right now for my weekly tests. Instead I will be studying hard for Step 1 early on.

If I didn't have to put in this amount of effort for my weekly tests, I would have more time for Step 1 preparation. I feel like 70% of things being taught to us right now are not going to end up in the boards.

 

[bobow98]

Just means that you have more time to study for step 1 that way you want to.

 

[mcloaf]

Are pass/fail curriculums worse for students?

In terms of preparation for Step 1, how do most students feel pass/fail curriculum approaches impact preparation for the exam. I have heard that some people are less inclined to study in the preclinical years because of this--which could end up coming back to bite them when it comes to take the exam.



I'm interested in a surgical specialty, so my Step scores are going to be really important (although I know people's interests change all the time). So this is a factor I am thinking about when it comes to choosing medical schools.

Do you think that pass/fail is worse than traditional grades for preparation for Step 1?

My initial response is **** no. To some degree this might also depend on the person. If you don't have the motivation to make yourself learn something thoroughly without grades hanging over you then yes, going to an unranked P/F might negatively impact your outcomes. I love the flexibility that it gives and the non-competitive atmosphere; I haven't had to make my own study guides at all because people just share theirs which are way better than I would make anyway. That being said I'm still trying to score within the range of what would be honors if we had grades.

Something else to consider is that depending on the school or instructor, getting a high grade may have little impact on how prepared you are for Step 1. A lot of courses are taught by PhD's with agendas, and med students are a rapt audience that has to pretend to care about their research. If the difference between P/HP and honors is a bunch of non-relevant bull**** from their research lab you won't be any better prepared for Step 1 if you honor the course.


Edit: If you had the time and USNWP subscription you could go through and compare Step 1 scores to grading policies. That assumes, though, that the USNWP numbers are legit, which has been contested, and that whatever differences you see are in fact related to grading strategies, which is a hard sell IMO.

 

[chronicidal]

no significant difference in Step 1 scores after changing to P/F preclinical curriculum:
White and Fantone 2009; Bloodgood et al. 2009; Rohe et al. 2006

 

[Brain Bucket]

It's to be expected. The students who wish to work hard, will work hard at any school. Although, competition does help.

 

[tjquinn]

As already mentioned above, P/F school allows you to focus your learning on Step 1. For instance, I was supposed to learn a lot of neuroscience minutiae in 2nd year, but I decided I would rather master the more Step 1 relevant neuroscience material. Did I get >90% on the 3 neuroscience tests? Nope. Did I get the same grade as those students who did get >90% on the 3 neuroscience tests? Yes.

 

[chronicidal]

As already mentioned above, P/F school allows you to focus your learning on Step 1. For instance, I was supposed to learn a lot of neuroscience minutiae in 2nd year, but I decided I would rather master the more Step 1 relevant neuroscience material. Did I get >90% on the 3 neuroscience tests? Nope. Did I get the same grade as those students who did get >90% on the 3 neuroscience tests? Yes.

did you get the same step 1 score as those students?

 

[Dbate]

My initial response is **** no. To some degree this might also depend on the person. If you don't have the motivation to make yourself learn something thoroughly without grades hanging over you then yes, going to an unranked P/F might negatively impact your outcomes. I love the flexibility that it gives and the non-competitive atmosphere; I haven't had to make my own study guides at all because people just share theirs which are way better than I would make anyway. That being said I'm still trying to score within the range of what would be honors if we had grades.

Something else to consider is that depending on the school or instructor, getting a high grade may have little impact on how prepared you are for Step 1. A lot of courses are taught by PhD's with agendas, and med students are a rapt audience that has to pretend to care about their research. If the difference between P/HP and honors is a bunch of non-relevant bull**** from their research lab you won't be any better prepared for Step 1 if you honor the course.


Edit: If you had the time and USNWP subscription you could go through and compare Step 1 scores to grading policies. That assumes, though, that the USNWP numbers are legit, which has been contested, and that whatever differences you see are in fact related to grading strategies, which is a hard sell IMO.

This is what really worries me.

Grades were a HUGE motivator for me in college because I knew I wanted to go to medical school. I definitely learned alot just because I wanted to get As.

I took a few classes pass/fail in college (two random humanities classes) and I didn't learn anything because I knew I wasn't getting a grade.

Also, I feel like grades allowed me to identify the areas where I was weak. Without that external benchmark to motivate me, then I don't think I would learn as well. :/

So for me I think pass/fail could be an a problem. That's why I wanted to hear if any students felt this way initially, but it turned out to be fine in the end.

 

[Textbookversion]

This is what really worries me.

Grades were a HUGE motivator for me in college because I knew I wanted to go to medical school. I definitely learned alot just because I wanted to get As.

I took a few classes pass/fail in college (two random humanities classes) and I didn't learn anything because I knew I wasn't getting a grade.

Also, I feel like grades allowed me to identify the areas where I was weak. Without that external benchmark to motivate me, then I don't think I would learn as well. :/

So for me I think pass/fail could be an a problem. That's why I wanted to hear if any students felt this way initially, but it turned out to be fine in the end.

not failing will be a huge motivator. it takes plenty of work just to pass.

 

[NickNaylor]

This is what really worries me.

Grades were a HUGE motivator for me in college because I knew I wanted to go to medical school. I definitely learned alot just because I wanted to get As.

I took a few classes pass/fail in college (two random humanities classes) and I didn't learn anything because I knew I wasn't getting a grade.

Also, I feel like grades allowed me to identify the areas where I was weak. Without that external benchmark to motivate me, then I don't think I would learn as well. :/

So for me I think pass/fail could be an a problem. That's why I wanted to hear if any students felt this way initially, but it turned out to be fine in the end.

You will become motivated when step 1 gets closer. It will put the fear of God into you and you'll be able to pound it out. As far as the question, there's likely a difference among individuals (e.g., person A might do better at a graded than a P/F school while person B is the opposite - which is what you see repeated on SDN), but grossly I imagine there's no difference. The grading scheme itself has no bearing on the quality of your learning. Some people will be more motivated with a finer evaluation scale, others won't. Just depends if you're one of those people.

 

[alpinism]

At most true P/F schools you still get a percentage grade plus exam averages w/ standard deviations. You know exactly how well you did compared to your classmates and you can still try to get above 90% on every exam. The only difference is that your grade is not recorded on your transcript. Once med school is over you're expected to always be learning as a doctor (especially during residency and fellowship) when you're not taking any graded courses. The point is, you have to be mature enough to take responsibility for your own education and find the internal motivation to study without the threat of grades.

Do you think students at places like Baylor, Case, Emory, Duke, Harvard, Hopkins, Mayo, Stanford, UCLA, UCSF, UChicago, Michigan, Pitt, and Yale are less motivated to study and learn less (and are thus worse doctors) because they have pass/fail courses?

 

[eefen]

not failing will be a huge motivator. it takes plenty of work just to pass.

Very much this.

"Just" passing in med school doesn't translate into "coasting through."

 

[Pons Asinorum]

A lot of the gold has already been mined in the prior responses, but another aspect I would highlight is that I felt like my true p/f, unranked program dropped me off at the beginning of my dedicated Step 1 study period very much not burned out from studying for the past two years worth of block exams. I had plenty of energy to ramp it up for the 5 or so weeks of no-**** Step 1 crush. I aimed for and achieved about the class mean on all of our block exams by pretty much ignoring the majority of the material that wasn't part of the Step 1 canon (in First Aid, Kaplan Q bank, Goljan, etc.) because I wasn't shooting for what I imagined the front of the class was doing. I just wanted to build a solid base. Felt like it worked, did well on Step 1, doing well on rotations now, plan on matching well. P/F puts the onus on you to learn what you want or feel like you need, to learn. The reward for that is more flexibility, which for me (non-trad, wife, two kids) was invaluable.