Pass/fail vs Grades--quality of life?

[HooliganSnail]

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Yes, I agree it is very sneaky. The code words usually go along the lines of "outstanding", "excellent", "very good", and "good". Thus a school can proclaim without conscience that they don't "rank" their students which is correct technically as they're not giving your exact ordinal rank in the class (i.e. HooliganSnails ranks 5 out of class of 130 students).

Well thank you for enlightening me. One thing I can guarantee is that HooliganSnail does not rank 5 out of 130. But hey 128 is better than 129........

 

[username456789]

Ahhhhh......very sneaky. I could see this being possible. I did not know about that. They discussed the Dean's letter at one of our class meetings, and did not allude to any such thing, but I would not put it past them.

There was a post not too long ago on these forums about a 4th year med student who was alarmed to learn that his school, like most, was not actually a true P/F school and that the Dean's Letter made this abundantly clear.

It blindsides a lot of students.

 

[DermViser]

Well thank you for enlightening me. One thing I can guarantee is that HooliganSnail does not rank 5 out of 130. But hey 128 is better than 129........

It's best to probably sit and talk with someone who puts together the Dean's letter and ask them how exactly this is calculated so you know where to target your efforts. Very few students do so, and so many are under the delusion that they aren't ranked at all by their medical school, until they see their MSPE. Which makes no sense, as Residency PDs want a relative marker of the quality of the medical student you are.

The schools that are "true" Pass/Fail are usually that way in the first 2 years only.

 

[DermViser]

If they are tracking your % score for each class, it's not a true pass fail...

It may be that students are just given a "Letter of Distinction" (an extra), but actual percentiles aren't kept and tracked.

 

[JoshSt]

A general chime in - as someone that goes to a school with letter grades - I hate it. Your life is "ruined" if you get a 92.9999 B instead of the magical 93.0 A. I know nearly all P/F schools still have the ranking system but, ignorance is bliss, I'd imagine that those stratifications would be a little less nerve-racking than these A's/B's/C's.

 

[Psai]

A general chime in - as someone that goes to a school with letter grades - I hate it. Your life is "ruined" if you get a 92.9999 B instead of the magical 93.0 A. I know nearly all P/F schools still have the ranking system but, ignorance is bliss, I'd imagine that those stratifications would be a little less nerve-racking than these A's/B's/C's.

Who cares about grades? Just learn the material dude

 

[mcloaf]

Who cares about grades? Just learn the material dude

I would care, as would most med students I know. Even with unranked P/F I'm still down if I'm unhappy with score relative to the class average. I think a lot of us are just wired/trained like that. So glad I don't have grades to exacerbate this.

 

[Flamen04]

Pass/Fail is nice. However, it doesn't make you NOT care about grades since you most likely have a type A personality and want to do well. Even if pass fail, you will probably try get all As anyways being conditioned for years to do so... Therefore, it doesn't matter. Go to whoever school you like the most. /thread

 

[DermViser]

Who cares about grades? Just learn the material dude

Bc it affects his class rank and ability to get AOA, dude.

 

[DermViser]

Pass/Fail is nice. However, it doesn't make you NOT care about grades since you most likely have a type A personality and want to do well. Even if pass fail, you will probably try get all As anyways being conditioned for years to do so... Therefore, it doesn't matter. Go to whoever school you like the most. /thread

Um, no. "True" Pass/Fail (should) make you less neurotic and concentrate more on learning the material well, rather than learning it in the way the professor wants you to learn it, to ace the questions on his specific exam. Type A's will work hard to learn the material regardless, but won't be killing themselves over decimals of a point to achieve a letter on a transcript, due to fear of how it will affect their class rank. The learning incentives are different btw the 2 systems.

 

[ChEMD]

I have to agree, true P/F sounds less stressful, but that is a rarity among P/F schools. But I think that might make students more crazy 3rd year because you only have those subjective clinical grades to determine your class rank/AOA status. All of at being said, the original question talked about competition, not stress level. I think most people are leaning towards having grades may be a little more internally stressful (just because it makes you feel a little better inside, not because you're not being ranked), but it doesn't make students less cooperative with each other.

 

[Flamen04]

Um, no. "True" Pass/Fail (should) make you less neurotic and concentrate more on learning the material well, rather than learning it in the way the professor wants you to learn it, to ace the questions on his specific exam. Type A's will work hard to learn the material regardless, but won't be killing themselves over decimals of a point to achieve a letter on a transcript, due to fear of how it will affect their class rank. The learning incentives are different btw the 2 systems.

You should tell that to the type A's in my school 😎

 

[JoshSt]

Bc it affects his class rank and ability to get AOA, dude.

+1

Exactly, it was such a struggle to balance between how much to study test-writer's dumb minutia vs studying credible USMLE-relevant sources like Pathoma. Ultimately, I chose to do the latter and, while it did hurt my class rank, I did better on Step 1 than most of my classmates. Where do I stand in a program director's eye - did well on a standardized test but wasn't in the top whatever #'s. And yes, AOA was a big determinant as well, at my school your class grades and rank weigh more than Step 1.

I like the previous post where, rank, AOA and stuff is all weighed toward Step 1 - that'd be ideal in my mind.

 

[DermViser]

You should tell that to the type A's in my school 😎

Imagine how much MORE neurotic they would be if there were grades. At least now you're just getting baseline neuroticism bc they're holding over from premed.

 

[username456789]

I guess one of the problems I have with all of this is that people always think you somehow have to pick one or the other. You either do well in class or you do well on Step I.

It's absolutely possible to excel at both. I highly recommend this.

 

[Lucca]

Imagine how much MORE neurotic they would be if there were grades. At least now you're just getting baseline neuroticism bc they're holding over from premed.

I'm just a premed but I'm very excited for the day I don't have to worry about grades. I could care less if they ranked me internally - in fact it's probably for the best - but taking a bunch of neurotic people and giving them MORE objective data to pin their self esteem to is just a bad idea.

 

[ChEMD]

I'm just a premed but I'm very excited for the day I don't have to worry about grades. I could care less if they ranked me internally - in fact it's probably for the best - but taking a bunch of neurotic people and giving them MORE objective data to pin their self esteem to is just a bad idea.

Grades and internal ranking are the EXACT same thing! I don't know why nobody really understands this lol. But I suppose if one makes you feel better, who am I to judge. Just please understand, there is literally no difference. With grades, your percentage will get converted to a letter or some form of 'honors' which gets sent to the registrar to rank you. Without grades, your percentage gets converted to a pass, but the percentage still gets sent to the registrar to rank you (with the exception of the few true p/f schools). I suppose you could argue that residencies won't get to see your exact grade breakdown for preclinical courses at a p/f school, but if you think they care about that you're crazy lol.

 

[DermViser]

I guess one of the problems I have with all of this is that people always think you somehow have to pick one or the other. You either do well in class or you do well on Step I.

It's absolutely possible to excel at both. I highly recommend this.

You're also assuming that people attend schools in which:
1) PhD professors cover Step 1 relevant information in class
2) Those professors write test questions in USMLE Step 1 format, and not rote memorization questions (like those ridiculous Pretest questions) so students have adequate exposure on how to approach these questions

Most would love to be able to get all "A"s and do well on Step 1. It gets more difficult to do both as it gets closer and closer to exam day.

 

[ChEMD]

You're also assuming that people attend schools in which:
1) PhD professors cover Step 1 relevant information in class
2) Those professors write test questions in USMLE Step 1 format, and not rote memorization questions (like those ridiculous Pretest questions) so students have adequate exposure on how to approach these questions

Most would love to be able to get all "A"s and do well on Step 1. It gets more difficult to do both as it gets closer and closer to exam day.

Isn't the general consensus that lectures typically teach more detail than requires for step 1? If that's the case, then I definitely feel like it's possible to do both. Just make sure you're learning the concepts and getting a strong foundation first. Then as you get closer to your tests, memorize the small details you have to know (even though you probably won't remember them long term. I guess it probably does vary greatly between schools though.

 

[DermViser]

Isn't the general consensus that lectures typically teach more detail than requires for step 1? If that's the case, then I definitely feel like it's possible to do both. Just make sure you're learning the concepts and getting a strong foundation first. Then as you get closer to your tests, memorize the small details you have to know (even though you probably won't remember them long term. I guess it probably does vary greatly between schools though.

Yes, but you're assuming teachers teach the foundation and add detail. More times, the professor just throws a gamut of minutiae details and says memorize it for the test. You only have so much brain holding power. As you get closer to the exam, you'll remember the minutiae details more just bc of brute force and you'll be rewarded for knowing minutiae.
http://movieclips.com/UjDa-rain-man-movie-you-memorized-the-whole-book/

 

[username456789]

You're also assuming that people attend schools in which:
1) PhD professors cover Step 1 relevant information in class
2) Those professors write test questions in USMLE Step 1 format, and not rote memorization questions (like those ridiculous Pretest questions) so students have adequate exposure on how to approach these questions

No, I'm really not.

Most would love to be able to get all "A"s and do well on Step 1. It gets more difficult to do both as it gets closer and closer to exam day.

Of course it gets difficult. That's why it's medical school and not nursing school.

 

[DermViser]

No, I'm really not.

Of course it gets difficult. That's why it's medical school and not nursing school.

Well, It would be hard to believe that people can study 2 different ways, for 2 different tests (professor exam vs. USMLE Step 1) at the same time.

 

[ChEMD]

Well, It would be hard to believe that people can study 2 different ways, for 2 different tests (professor exam vs. USMLE Step 1) at the same time.

I really am confused. Do some schools really not teach the material that is included in step 1??

 

[DermViser]

I really am confused. Do some schools really not teach the material that is included in step 1??

I'm saying one tests in rote memory way, the other (Step 1) doesn't. But to answer your question also: Yes.

 

[username456789]

Well, It would be hard to believe that people can study 2 different ways, for 2 different tests (professor exam vs. USMLE Step 1) at the same time.

Belee dat.

 

[Evil_Abed]

Well, It would be hard to believe that people can study 2 different ways, for 2 different tests (professor exam vs. USMLE Step 1) at the same time.

Not really.

You can absolutely excel in both class and Step 1. It doesn't have to hurt your social life to do that either. A lot of people seem to underestimate how much easier memorization becomes if you have a solid conceptual understanding of the material you're learning. Everything starts fitting into the big picture and makes a whole lot of sense suddenly. I think the best thing you can do as a med student (and, probably as a physician) is keep asking why. GuyWhoDoesStuff is absolutely right that this doesn't have to be so dichotomous.

 

[DermViser]

Not really.

You can absolutely excel in both class and Step 1. It doesn't have to hurt your social life to do that either. A lot of people seem to underestimate how much easier memorization becomes if you have a solid conceptual understanding of the material you're learning. Everything starts fitting into the big picture and makes a whole lot of sense suddenly. I think the best thing you can do as a med student (and, probably as a physician) is keep asking why. GuyWhoDoesStuff is absolutely right that this doesn't have to be so dichotomous.

I'm more talking about things covered in review books that are glaringly missing in class.

 

[Lucca]

Grades and internal ranking are the EXACT same thing! I don't know why nobody really understands this lol. But I suppose if one makes you feel better, who am I to judge. Just please understand, there is literally no difference. With grades, your percentage will get converted to a letter or some form of 'honors' which gets sent to the registrar to rank you. Without grades, your percentage gets converted to a pass, but the percentage still gets sent to the registrar to rank you (with the exception of the few true p/f schools). I suppose you could argue that residencies won't get to see your exact grade breakdown for preclinical courses at a p/f school, but if you think they care about that you're crazy lol.

I understand there is no functional difference. That's fine. Competition is fine, I love competition. It's just the number that bothers me. Really, if college was just PF and they internally ranked you I would have 1/1000th of my stress even though I'd still be competing for better grades than others to distinguish myself.

 

[ChEMD]

I understand there is no functional difference. That's fine. Competition is fine, I love competition. It's just the number that bothers me. Really, if college was just PF and they internally ranked you I would have 1/1000th of my stress even though I'd still be competing for better grades than others to distinguish myself.

You get a number in both scenarios. The two systems just happen convert that number into different letters haha. But I suppose I can't argue with a feeling, so touché.

 

[Lucca]

You get a number in both scenarios. The two systems just happen convert that number into different letters haha. But I suppose I can't argue with a feeling, so touché.

It's just the psychology of "feeling" this artificial difference between a 92.9999 A- and a 93 A in spite of knowing the content very well in both cases. It's very hard to focus on actually appreciating the material when you have to keep gaming systems to A or A- or B+ or B-, etc.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Yes, I agree it is very sneaky. The code words usually go along the lines of "outstanding", "excellent", "very good", and "good". Thus a school can proclaim without conscience that they don't "rank" their students which is correct technically as they're not giving your exact ordinal rank in the class (i.e. HooliganSnails ranks 5 out of class of 130 students).

Our school does exactly this.

 

[FIREitUP]

Not really.

You can absolutely excel in both class and Step 1. It doesn't have to hurt your social life to do that either. A lot of people seem to underestimate how much easier memorization becomes if you have a solid conceptual understanding of the material you're learning. Everything starts fitting into the big picture and makes a whole lot of sense suddenly. I think the best thing you can do as a med student (and, probably as a physician) is keep asking why. GuyWhoDoesStuff is absolutely right that this doesn't have to be so dichotomous.

this is very school dependent