Path into Academic Medicine

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Hotshy

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Hi everyone,

I don't see this talked about much, so I was wondering if any had any knowledge on the path into an academic medicine career. What should somebody be doing in medical school if they eventually want to work in academic medicine? What type of residency should someone be doing (One that infuses research vs. pure clinical residency)? Are any additional degrees useful such as a masters in education?

Thanks for any information you can share. 🙂

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It isn't really competitive to get into academic medicine, mainly because of the lower salary--figure ~$100k less per year starting out as compared to private practice.

All specialties need academic physicians, so don't let that guide your choice. What would be helpful would be to go to an academic program (one associated with a medical school, rather that one at a community hospital).

I suspect more academic physicians have done fellowships, although I have no numbers to back that up.
 
Master's in Education would be a waste of your time and money IMO. The only degree you will need is a medical degree. I do clinical neuro research with an MD, and I am next door to a DO doing the same thing. Both also teach at the medical school on campus. Neither have PhDs.

In medical school, you need to find what interests you and seek research opportunities in this field. Some schools offer dual degree programs in clinical research and/or translational research so that may be something that is accessible to you.

As for residency selection, my educated guess would be one that allows you to do research on the side. Seems obvious enough. To echo K31, a residency at an academic institution would be great.

Good luck, hope this helps!
Hi everyone,

I don't see this talked about much, so I was wondering if any had any knowledge on the path into an academic medicine career. What should somebody be doing in medical school if they eventually want to work in academic medicine? What type of residency should someone be doing (One that infuses research vs. pure clinical residency)? Are any additional degrees useful such as a masters in education?

Thanks for any information you can share. 🙂



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Is it possible to have an academic career that doesn't involve research but mainly teaching and serving on an admissions committee or perhaps some other body within a medical school? How would one go about getting into that sort of academic career?
 
I'm sorry I thought you were referring to medical academic research. I'm sure you can find what you're looking for, but I don't know much about the academic ladder of teaching hierarchy. I am under the impression that to be promoted to Professor as opposed to Assistant Professor that you need to have done research. I could be wrong but that's how I thought it goes in medical academia.
Is it possible to have an academic career that doesn't involve research but mainly teaching and serving on an admissions committee or perhaps some other body within a medical school? How would one go about getting into that sort of academic career?



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Is it possible to have an academic career that doesn't involve research but mainly teaching and serving on an admissions committee or perhaps some other body within a medical school? How would one go about getting into that sort of academic career?
Please don't go for academic medicine if you don't want to do research. You will be miserable, because research is expected from all faculty members. You will have a good chance to stay as an instructor or assistant professor for life, and never get promoted.
 
Well I do want to do research, I'm just curious on the various paths that there are available.
 
Have you tried calling or emailing the admissions office of a medical school? I'm sure you will be able to get this information by speaking with an admissions counselor or committee member. Plus, it would be straight from the horse's mouth.
Well I do want to do research, I'm just curious on the various paths that there are available.
 
I think there are plenty of positions for academic medicine w/o research

You will most be hired as clinical instructors or assistant clinical professors, involved in primarily resident teaching as well as some administrative duties. Eventually, some become clerkship directors or residency program directors (few of my mentors did this + physicians who interviewed me at med school interviews). But, you won't get a tenure/a full professorship no matter how long you stay (that's for academic physicians engaged in research).
 
It isn't really competitive to get into academic medicine, mainly because of the lower salary--figure ~$100k less per year starting out as compared to private practice.
All specialties need academic physicians, so don't let that guide your choice. What would be helpful would be to go to an academic program (one associated with a medical school, rather that one at a community hospital).
I suspect more academic physicians have done fellowships, although I have no numbers to back that up.
This is generally correct. Salary is very variable and institution and field specific though, so it's impossible to generalize. Jobs in my department are quite competitive, we interview about 2 people for each position offered, and don't interview many applicants at all. They are screened out on paper and then again with a phone interview. Find something that you love and train at the best place that you can. Involvement in research early will help as will training at a major academic center.

Is it possible to have an academic career that doesn't involve research but mainly teaching and serving on an admissions committee or perhaps some other body within a medical school? How would one go about getting into that sort of academic career?
Yes. That's what I do. Though I'm not on the admissions committee. My job involves clinical and administrative duties and I teach residents and fellows, and the occasional medical student.😉 Involvement in the university is very variable. Some of the hospital and medical school committees require significant time commitments. Where I work, many of these roles are filled by the clinical people, to free up time for the research track people to do research.

Please don't go for academic medicine if you don't want to do research. You will be miserable, because research is expected from all faculty members. You will have a good chance to stay as an instructor or assistant professor for life, and never get promoted.
This is false. Most universities, even the most highly regarded academic powerhouses, have clinical educator pathways that do not require research for promotion. My promotion is determined by time (experience), clinical excellence, and teaching scores. Research is not a determining factor. This path does not lead to tenure, but neither does the academic path that most clinical researchers take. Tenure track people in clinical medicine are dinosaurs and rare today at most university programs. My university recommends at least 75% non clinical time for success in the tenure track. Most clinicians are in the 20-30% club, maybe 50% if they get funding.

Well I do want to do research, I'm ju curious on the various paths that there are available.

When you say that you want to do research, what do you mean? Do you want your own lab? Just clinical research? Funded research?
There's basically 3 paths. Hardcore tenure track researcher with your own lab, team, etc with >50% non clinical, protected research time. The more common clinical research path with significant clinical responsibility and limited protected research time. And the clinical educator pathway, with little or no research requirements, approaching 100% clinical time.
It's worth pointing out that academic medicine usually has an "up or out" deadline ticking away. You have to be fully committed, and you have to earn that non clinical time. If you're a slacker or a deadbeat you're going to find yourself unemployed. The research track's publish or perish timetable and requirements can be brutal.
Every university and department handles things a little bit differently.
 
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But, you won't get a tenure/a full professorship no matter how long you stay (that's for academic physicians engaged in research).

You won't get tenure, but you can get promoted to the rank of "Professor". Though it would be Professor of Clinical Dermatology, or whatever "code" it's used for the non tenure track appointments. I'm not convinced that tenure would have much value to a clinical pathway person anyway.
 
When you say that you want to do research, what do you mean? Do you want your own lab? Just clinical research? Funded research?
There's basically 3 paths. Hardcore tenure track researcher with your own lab, team, etc with >50% non clinical, protected research time. The more common clinical research path with significant clinical responsibility and limited protected research time. And the clinical educator pathway, with little or no research requirements, approaching 100% clinical time.
It's worth pointing out that academic medicine usually has an "up or out" deadline ticking away. You have to be fully committed, and you have to earn that non clinical time. If you're a slacker or a deadbeat you're going to find yourself unemployed. The research track's publish or perish timetable and requirements can be brutal.
Every university and department handles things a little bit differently.

Thank for this part of your response especially. I am honestly not sure at this point about where I plan on falling in academic medicine, all I am sure about is that I want to work in academic medicine. As for research or what kind of research I want to do as a career, I'm not entirely sure. I start medical school in August and plan on exploring my interests thoroughly before making any commitment.
 
You won't get tenure, but you can get promoted to the rank of "Professor". Though it would be Professor of Clinical Dermatology, or whatever "code" it's used for the non tenure track appointments. I'm not convinced that tenure would have much value to a clinical pathway person anyway.

May even be a Professor of the Practice or something. My college had a few of those.
 
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This probably belongs in the MSTP board.

OP, there are many routes to academic medicine, some more research-oriented (those of us MD/PhDers) and some more administration-oriented (those who served as their class presidents and ethics board advisors... during medical school and residency).

Send me a private message if you want to talk more 🙂
 
For instance, 1 report found
that, compared with research faculty, the odds of holding a
higher academic rank were 85% lower for academic clini-
cians and 69% lower for teacher-clinicians. In another re-
port, faculty devoting more than 50% of their time to clini-
cal care were more likely to be on a nontenure track and
more likely to report slower career progress than those de-
voting less than 50% of their time to clinical care. In a third
report, the time to promotion was significantly shorter for
physician-scientists (with 80% designated research time) than
for clinician-scholars (with 30% research time).

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/9/1101.full.pdf
 
Master's in Education would be a waste of your time and money IMO. The only degree you will need is a medical degree. I do clinical neuro research with an MD, and I am next door to a DO doing the same thing. Both also teach at the medical school on campus. Neither have PhDs.

What's the point of doing MD/PhD then? (I mean you do get your tuition etc paid for, but that's hardly worth the extra years...)
 
IIDestriero: I don't know what medical school you are in. Educator track is exceedingly rare because it requires you being the course master of the curriculum. Each department may have one or two on such track. Most clinicians are on clinical track as they don't get serious funding. The tenure track is reserved for physician scientists with significant extramural funding and some basic scientists. We hire young attendings for several years. The contract is renewed annually. If we find a lack of academic progress, contract may not be renewed. We have quite a bit of turn-over in personnel in bad years. Unless you have the desire to contribute to the literature of medicine, there is no point to stay in academic medicine: It is underpaid and stressful (if you don't like research). Job security is nowhere as good as partnership. You have to get RO1 and to demonstrate the ability to renew it to obtain tenure position in medical schools. Unfortunately, most clinicians never even come close to that.
 
IIDestriero: I don't know what medical school you are in. Educator track is exceedingly rare because it requires you being the course master of the curriculum. Each department may have one or two on such track. Most clinicians are on clinical track as they don't get serious funding. The tenure track is reserved for physician scientists with significant extramural funding and some basic scientists. We hire young attendings for several years. The contract is renewed annually. If we find a lack of academic progress, contract may not be renewed. We have quite a bit of turn-over in personnel in bad years. Unless you have the desire to contribute to the literature of medicine, there is no point to stay in academic medicine: It is underpaid and stressful (if you don't like research). Job security is nowhere as good as partnership. You have to get RO1 and to demonstrate the ability to renew it to obtain tenure position in medical schools. Unfortunately, most clinicians never even come close to that.

Many medical schools, including all that I looked at for a job, and the two where I have been on the faculty, offered three distinct academic pathways. They are separate and have different promotion requirements. What they are called may differ from university to university. It's a shame that your university doesn't offer them. You're probably losing faculty with outstanding clinical potential. It's worth noting that I'm not talking about random Podunk medical schools here, but top 20 schools with long track records of serious research.
1. Tenure- as you describe. Essentially a serious researcher who does clinical work as well. Usually 50% or more protected non clinical time. We have not had a new tenure track person in years. They are the senior faculty around before the development of the other tracks. These guys earn their time off by paying their salaries with grants, etc. We have a few 100% researchers as well.
2. The academic clinicians, primarily clinical people who have 20-50% protected nonclinical time to engage in research. ~40% of the staff are on this path. The department supports their time off, some have small grants, a couple are significant, and some are quite successful convincing manufacturers to donate their equipment for their projects.
3. The clinical-educator path. This represents a growing percentage of the appointments in my department and is about 50% of the faculty. They teach residents and fellows and others rotating through the department, not lecturing the medical students. Promotion requires zero research commitment/productivity. Though many, myself included, have lectured at meetings, written chapters in textbooks, participated in clinical research, mentored fellows chart reviews, case reports, etc. The purpose of this track is to generate outstanding clinicians and superior educators for the residents and fellows. The other benefit is to have more people on the ground every day getting the clinical work done in the trenches. It also unloads some administrative burden off the research faculty. I think we've had the non research track for more than 10 years. By report the university is very happy with it's success and the number of appointments into this track is increasing. The medical school has 3 goals. Excellence in research, education, and clinical work. The non research path recognizes that one can excel in the area of resident education and be clinically outstanding, without being a research leader. Clearly an asset to a demanding academic department. I do know that some other departments at the university do not have any non research track faculty. The chair has to decide what he wants from his faculty, and mine places a very high value on trainee education and the reputation of it's graduates as well as clinical excellence.
The reason I am in academic medicine is that I have a desire to participate in resident and fellow education, and I'm good at it. Also, I thrive on the constant supply of interesting and challenging cases available at a world class academic referral center. As an anesthesiologist, it's also fascinating to participate in cutting edge techniques that few facilities/surgeons in the world offer. As for pay, many departments offer productivity based compensation, and I'm very fairly compensated for how hard I work. I have no reason to believe that I have any less job security than anyone else in anesthesia. Probably more than many small groups out there. My salary might be better protected as well because we could all work 10-20% more if we really wanted to, and we could focus on improving efficiency and throughput. Many of the PP jobs I looked at paid some more, but you worked much harder and many relied on significant, and easily cut, hospital subsidies. If they could, most hospitals/ASCs would love to employ anesthesiologists and CRNAs directly, making a nice profit off our backs. Those fat PP jobs are not as secure as you might think. There are many stories on the anesthesia board about decades old groups being outbid by management companies and leaner young guns willing to adopt more efficient staffing models. Some quite large. My own family had a physician let go when the hospital dumped them after leading them on for a year. They worked hard, were well liked, no lawsuits, just too expensive. The administration put a target on their backs and didn't lose a minute of sleep letting them all go to save some money.
 
I1Destriero thanks for your last post, it really laid out the three main paths in academic medicine. Like I said I know I want to be in academic medicine eventually, this gave me a good picture of what's available and hopefully I'll figure it out as I go along.
 
Wow, that means no serious science in your department since nobody is good enough for tenure status. Tenure is determined by school of medicine, not by department, even though recommended by the department. Whoever in the service rotation teaches residents and fellows. What a redundancy to have faculty just teaching residents and fellows. This kind of argument occurs in surgical department, and apparently anesthesia, too. It will never happen in our department.
 
Wow, that means no serious science in your department since nobody is good enough for tenure status. Tenure is determined by school of medicine, not by department, even though recommended by the department. Whoever in the service rotation teaches residents and fellows. What a redundancy to have faculty just teaching residents and fellows. This kind of argument occurs in surgical department, and apparently anesthesia, too. It will never happen in our department.

What I meant was that the department chair decides what type of people that he's going to recruit (into which track). It's hard enough to find people interested in research at all in anesthesia. I can't imagine how we could find enough people to do all the work if everyone had to be on a research path, getting more protected non clinical time, and then letting many of them go right around the same time that they were becoming clinically outstanding. When you need 40 or 50 faculty to staff the peds side of the department you can see the problem. Anesthesia is very manpower heavy. One or two guys can't just cover all the ward or unit patients for a week at a time, you need dozens working every day in multiple locations, multiple people on call, etc. We do over 30,000 anesthetics a year just in the peds group. The adult faculty are spread over several hospitals. It's a huge department. The other upside is that the clinical people are generating significantly more income for the department than the research faculty. Even with productivity bonuses, everybody wins.
As to the quality of our research, that's not for me to say. We do get a fair number of articles published in the major anesthesia journals, lecture all over, host meetings and workshops, get asked to write chapters in the major texts, author our own, etc. so we must be doing something right, tenured or not.😉
 
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What I meant was that the department chair decides what type of people that he's going to recruit (into which track). It's hard enough to find people interested in research at all in anesthesia.


....

Would you say someone with an M.D. that did all the right researchy things (HHMI, research fellowship) would be at a major disadvantage in obtaining an academic position versus an M.D./Ph.D?
 
I also notice that anesthesiology department is one of the least funded departments in our school which is highly ranked. Pure clinical articles, particularly those in subspecialties, generally do not fare well in NIH study sections. If every clinical department in the medical school looks like the anesthesiology department you described, the school will be in trouble.
 
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Would you say someone with an M.D. that did all the right researchy things (HHMI, research fellowship) would be at a major disadvantage in obtaining an academic position versus an M.D./Ph.D?

It depends on what you want to do, what field you're in, and what they're looking for at the program you want to join. Many residencies have significant time for research built in, and some programs add a required research year. If you want to become a tenure track serious researcher with a lab, significant grants, etc. you would definitely benefit from a formal PhD program. If you take a year or 2 to do a research "fellowship" somewhere, you might also be very well prepared and competitive. I was offered a 80% research 20% clinical research "fellowship" for 12-24 months, but I elected to abandon my interest in research, and the research track. The problem with anesthesia residency is that there is limited time for research (up to 6 months of research elective time) and our fellowships are only one year long (only 2 months of elective time). Compare that to a PICU fellowship which is 3 years long. My anesthesia fellowship was at a major academic center and they were ecstatic to have us generate a poster for a national meeting or coauthor a case report or case series. Where I am now is similar. Compare that to the Peds ICU fellowship which requires the PICU fellows to carefully develop a well mentored project over 3 years. Most have multiple posters, reports, papers, etc by the end. If they don't they may not graduate. They leave the fellowship ready to start a productive career in academic medicine. Our anesthesia fellows do not. It's a well known problem in anesthesia. There is talk about adding a year to the residency and/or making fellowships 24 months to allow for a more significant research requirement, but it's just talk. I think it's a great idea, and would certainly benefit the field. When you're looking at offers for 3-500k, it's hard to turn them down for a 125k research fellowship. Other fields don't face that decision because their research time was built into their training.
 
It depends on what you want to do, what field you're in, and what they're looking for at the program you want to join. Many residencies have significant time for research built in, and some programs add a required research year. If you want to become a tenure track serious researcher with a lab, significant grants, etc. you would definitely benefit from a formal PhD program. If you take a year or 2 to do a research "fellowship" somewhere, you might also be very well prepared and competitive. I was offered a 80% research 20% clinical research "fellowship" for 12-24 months, but I elected to abandon my interest in research, and the research track. The problem with anesthesia residency is that there is limited time for research (up to 6 months of research elective time) and our fellowships are only one year long (only 2 months of elective time). Compare that to a PICU fellowship which is 3 years long. My anesthesia fellowship was at a major academic center and they were ecstatic to have us generate a poster for a national meeting or coauthor a case report or case series. Where I am now is similar. Compare that to the Peds ICU fellowship which requires the PICU fellows to carefully develop a well mentored project over 3 years. Most have multiple posters, reports, papers, etc by the end. If they don't they may not graduate. They leave the fellowship ready to start a productive career in academic medicine. Our anesthesia fellows do not. It's a well known problem in anesthesia. There is talk about adding a year to the residency and/or making fellowships 24 months to allow for a more significant research requirement, but it's just talk. I think it's a great idea, and would certainly benefit the field. When you're looking at offers for 3-500k, it's hard to turn them down for a 125k research fellowship. Other fields don't face that decision because their research time was built into their training.

Six months seems like not nearly enough time to produce even a mediocre clinical researcher. That would really be putting them at a disadvantage, and the only way around that would be an MSTP program for anesthesia. I assume.

Even 3 years for PICU, which I gather from what you said is one of the longer research programs, seems like the bare minimum. I assumed that all programs were about 3 years.

Do academic physicians post-fellowship get some kind of research mentoring at that point? Is it typical, perhaps, for new academic physicians to work "under" someone? Who teaches the physicians how to write a grant or develop an experimental design?

I don't run into many academic physicians, so I appreciate your responses.
 
I have been mentoring several physician scientists the last several years. If we identify an individual with potential fundable projects, we help him/her with time and some lab space, and function as a independent collaborator to produce sufficient data for a KO8 while I give the supply money. Most successful physician scientists are those with track record of funding starting from Ph.D. period. Most pure MDs fail because they are not trained to be hypothesis driven, and they think like a practicing physician. These two kinds of thinkings are almost incompatible. The first three years of attending are make-or-break period. If you do not make your independent funding within this period, it is unlikely you will make yourself a physician scientist. In my specialty, majority leadership positions are held by physician scientists even though they are such a minority. They are the most sought after commodities in the country. If you get RO1s and renew them in a timely fashion, tenure is guaranteed in any medical school. Indeed, we lost several star young physician scientists in recent several years to become chairman of departments in other medical schools. It is bad for us but good for them.
 
....Most successful physician scientists are those with track record of funding starting from Ph.D. period. Most pure MDs fail because they are not trained to be hypothesis driven, and they think like a practicing physician.

...

I figured. This was one of those kinds of situations where I really didn't want to hear the real answer. I always inferred it but I really don't to drain 5-6 years doing a PhD.

I think I'm still going to try to go M.D. only and sneak my way into academic research. I have the first 2 years of medical school to switch to MSTP if I change my mind.

Thanks for the insights.
 
I may have missed this along the posts I just skimmed - but is it competitive to get into the clinical-educator path? (either due to high interest or low availability) I have a strong interest in teaching -- and perhaps not just teaching in a clinical setting, the also in a classroom/lecture hall. However, I have zero interest in research. Will this be a problem, even at the medical school phase if I do not have a big desire to participate in research? I would, however, love to get involved in administrative/educational things, do teaching rotations during 4th year, etc.

Also, how much does the "prestige" of what medical school you attend factor in this career path? I may be choosing a school ranked in the mid-40's as opposed to the lower-10's for personal reasons, and I'm wondering if it's a career mistake...

Lastly, just how "unstable" or not "secure" is this career path (as in, could I be wandering around job-less the next calendar year with a short notice), and how "low" of a pay is it (a difference between comfortable living vs. being on a tight budget?? or being well off vs. just comfortable enough?)
 
I may have missed this along the posts I just skimmed - but is it competitive to get into the clinical-educator path? (either due to high interest or low availability) I have a strong interest in teaching -- and perhaps not just teaching in a clinical setting, the also in a classroom/lecture hall. However, I have zero interest in research. Will this be a problem, even at the medical school phase if I do not have a big desire to participate in research? I would, however, love to get involved in administrative/educational things, do teaching rotations during 4th year, etc.

Also, how much does the "prestige" of what medical school you attend factor in this career path? I may be choosing a school ranked in the mid-40's as opposed to the lower-10's for personal reasons, and I'm wondering if it's a career mistake...

Lastly, just how "unstable" or not "secure" is this career path (as in, could I Loobe wandering around job-less the next calendar year with a short notice), and how "low" of a pay is it (a difference between comfortable living vs. being on a tight budget?? or being well off vs. just comfortable enough?)
There is no way to predict how competitive it would be to get a teaching vs research track path. It's entirely dependent on what the chairman wants for his/her department. There could be many positions available on that track or few or none. And the goals could change over time.
Income is the same, too variable to generalize. I was looking at academic jobs that paid $x and 2x for similar work, though generally the more you work the more you make.
"Prestige" of your medical school is less important than where you do your residency. Just make the most of what you have available, do some networking, etc. If you have it, it's only going to help.
As for security, academic jobs are MORE secure than private practice jobs as you or done management company can't just put a group of people together and bid for our contracts. The goals are different as well.
 
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"Prestige" of your medical school is less important than where you do your residency. Just make the most of what you have available, do some networking, etc. If you have it, it's only going to help.
As for security, academic jobs are MORE secure than private practice jobs as you or done management company can't just put a group of people together and bid for our contracts. The goals are different as well.

1- so you would say the "prestige" or the quality of the residency program is much more important than the name of the medical school in the long-run? and the name of the medical school matters up through residency applications, more or less?
2- so when people generalize physicians having a stable job security, is it usually referring to full-time clinicians in an academic hospital?
 
1- so you would say the "prestige" or the quality of the residency program is much more important than the name of the medical school in the long-run? and the name of the medical school matters up through residency applications, more or less?
2- so when people generalize physicians having a stable job security, is it usually referring to full-time clinicians in an academic hospital?

1. Generally speaking, yes.
2. If I'm a superior clinician, achieve teaching scores higher than necessary to qualify for promotion, meet my research and or administrative requirements and am a good citizen and generally friendly, there's no reason to ever replace me. If I am all of those things in a private practice group and the anesthesia management company can negotiate a contract for the same clinical coverage for significantly less with the Hospital, I might find myself looking for s new job, or joining the new group for less money and no control of my destiny. That's the new reality out there. Be competitive or be at risk. These management companies are spreading, however when they fail to deliver on their promises, they can find their contract at risk 2 or 3 years later. Some fields are more stable than others.
 
Thank you so much, IlDestriero, for your quality posts in this thread. This is the first time I have learned something valuable in pre-allo in a long time. I have always wondered about the clinical educator career path, but never had the guts to ask the folks I've met about it. That and it would be inappropriate to ask someone about their salary 😉

I do have a question though: does everyone in the two clinical tracks you mention pretty much complete some type of fellowship? I guess I mean mainly for areas where you wouldn't complete one otherwise if you weren't going into academic medicine.
 
I have been mentoring several physician scientists the last several years. If we identify an individual with potential fundable projects, we help him/her with time and some lab space, and function as a independent collaborator to produce sufficient data for a KO8 while I give the supply money. Most successful physician scientists are those with track record of funding starting from Ph.D. period. Most pure MDs fail because they are not trained to be hypothesis driven, and they think like a practicing physician. These two kinds of thinkings are almost incompatible. The first three years of attending are make-or-break period. If you do not make your independent funding within this period, it is unlikely you will make yourself a physician scientist. In my specialty, majority leadership positions are held by physician scientists even though they are such a minority. They are the most sought after commodities in the country. If you get RO1s and renew them in a timely fashion, tenure is guaranteed in any medical school. Indeed, we lost several star young physician scientists in recent several years to become chairman of departments in other medical schools. It is bad for us but good for them.

Do physician-scientists with RO1 funding do clinical research? That is, research dealing with human subjects? What does a "research group" look like in clinical research? Are there grad students and postdocs just as in basic research labs? Who takes the data from patients? Is clinical research always part of some phase of a clinical trial? Or preliminary studies toward a clinical trial?

Sorry for so many perhaps incoherent list of questions... I know what a basic science research lab (using bacteria, fly, mouse, human cells or whatever...) looks like, but just have no idea what a clinical research lab (is there even such a thing?) looks like and how a PI in clinical research manages projects.
 
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Do physician-scientists with RO1 funding do clinical research? That is, research dealing with human subjects? Wow does a "research group" look like in clinical research? Are there grad students and postdocs just as in basic research labs? Who takes the data from patients? Is clinical research always part of some phase of a clinical trial? Or preliminary studies toward a clinical trial?

Sorry for so many perhaps incoherent list of questions... I know what a basic science research lab (using bacteria, fly, mouse, human cells or whatever...) looks like, but just have no idea what a clinical research lab (is there even such a thing?) looks like and how a PI in clinical research manages projects.

There is RO1 funding(grants from the US government/NIH for those of you who don't know the jargon) for research involving human subjects. Some human subjects research is funded by pharmaceutical companies or by private philanthropy.

Some research involve interventions or comparisons among various interventions/experimental treatments. Some research involves observational studies of people over long periods of time such as the Chronic Kidney Disease in Children Prospective Cohort Study.

Research is a team sport and there are often employees who are involved in data collection. These can include nurses, clinical psychologists, dietitians, and trained interviewers who are not otherwise credentialed (this might include grad students, depending on the topic area of the reserach), among others. Big projects will have a research coordinator and someone who manages scheduling, telephone reminders to subjects, records and data collection sheets, and handles some of the paperwork involved in studies. Physicians may also collect data and record observations on the data collection sheets. The "post-doc" fellows most often involved in clinical research are physicians in fellowship training. They often explain the research study, obtain informed consent, prescribe the experimental treatment, monitor for side effects, and report outcomes under the direction of a faculty member/physician.

Every organization doing federally funded research with human subjects has a board that oversees the ethical conduct of research and must approve the list of people involved in research (that they are qualified to do their part). If the study is also under the jurisdiction of the FDA, there is an additional form (FDA 1572) that must be filed with a list of the subinvestigators and up-dated as subinvestigators come and go.
 
MD/PhD is good if you want to focus on research, as opposed to clinical practice (80/20 split of research and clinical usually). If you want a more even split, there are research residencies, which incorporate research into your clinical training. This is how many MDs enter academic medicine full-time. You might also want to consider a year-off option (I believe Duke and Yale allow this) to pursue research for a year without gaining a graduate degree...
 
All of this varies greatly between specialties and institutions.
 
I may have missed this along the posts I just skimmed - but is it competitive to get into the clinical-educator path? (either due to high interest or low availability) I have a strong interest in teaching -- and perhaps not just teaching in a clinical setting, the also in a classroom/lecture hall. However, I have zero interest in research. Will this be a problem, even at the medical school phase if I do not have a big desire to participate in research? I would, however, love to get involved in administrative/educational things, do teaching rotations during 4th year, etc.

Also, how much does the "prestige" of what medical school you attend factor in this career path? I may be choosing a school ranked in the mid-40's as opposed to the lower-10's for personal reasons, and I'm wondering if it's a career mistake...

Lastly, just how "unstable" or not "secure" is this career path (as in, could I be wandering around job-less the next calendar year with a short notice), and how "low" of a pay is it (a difference between comfortable living vs. being on a tight budget?? or being well off vs. just comfortable enough?)

Some clinician educators are "contributed service" faculty meaning that they are in private practice with admitting privleges at the affiliated hospital. As part of "good citizenship" they donate some of their time to teaching while supporting themselves through clinical care. The "big lecture hall" stuff in medical school tends to be done by PhD scientists with expertise in histology, physiology, anatomy, pharmacology, etc but sometimes a physician with a specific area of expertise might lecture for a couple hours per year on a specific clinical condition. The other opportunity for teaching that is not "bedside" is in small group settings such as problem based learning (PBL) where a "tutor" or "facilitator" helps a small group of students over a period of weeks.

Another form of good citizenship is to serve on the admissions committee, the promotion committee (to determine what happens to students who have flunked exams), and other service opportunities including providing opportunities for medical students to shadow you, learn clinical exam skills from you and so forth.

A contributed service faculty member makes a living providing clinical care in a private practice setting and is paid accordingly. It depends on getting hired by a group practice (less common today to go into solo practice) and getting credentialed to practice at the affiliated hosptial. Then the med school will come looking for you to "pay your dues" as a member of the medical school community although you aren't on the medical school payroll.
 
To the academic medical people in this thread: Thanks for your input. I have a lot of interest in potentially being a part of academic medicine in a non-research capacity, and it's nice to know that extensive research won't necessarily be required if I want to step into one of those roles.
 
To the academic medical people in this thread: Thanks for your input. I have a lot of interest in potentially being a part of academic medicine in a non-research capacity, and it's nice to know that extensive research won't necessarily be required if I want to step into one of those roles.

You don't need any research to be a clinical faculty. Academics pays less and in many places they are begging for people to join. Some schools have unfilled faculty jobs sitting there for 3+ years.
 
I searched and came across this thread, and have to add in a question. I heard of a general surgeon who also taught just the gross anatomy classes at his medical school. Has anyone else heard of these kind of arrangements? This is my ultimate dream, and I'm wondering if possibly getting my masters in anatomy before medical school would give me any kind of advantage towards pursing my goal.
 
I searched and came across this thread, and have to add in a question. I heard of a general surgeon who also taught just the gross anatomy classes at his medical school. Has anyone else heard of these kind of arrangements? This is my ultimate dream, and I'm wondering if possibly getting my masters in anatomy before medical school would give me any kind of advantage towards pursing my goal.

I guess it is possible to go from general surgeon to instructor/assistant professor of anatomy if one is willing to take a pay cut.
 
I guess it is possible to go from general surgeon to instructor/assistant professor of anatomy if one is willing to take a pay cut.

Thanks LizzyM! He was my professor's friend and my professor said that he did both at the same time, although he also said that the surgeon was in his 50's. I guess doing both part time?
 
Thanks LizzyM! He was my professor's friend and my professor said that he did both at the same time, although he also said that the surgeon was in his 50's. I guess doing both part time?

A surgeon working f/t will make more than a surgeon working p/t & teaching anatomy p/t on the side. That said, by age 50+, some surgeons are ready to slow down or find a new path that is less strenuous and that can be done well into advanced age.
 
I have been mentoring several physician scientists the last several years. If we identify an individual with potential fundable projects, we help him/her with time and some lab space, and function as a independent collaborator to produce sufficient data for a KO8 while I give the supply money. Most successful physician scientists are those with track record of funding starting from Ph.D. period. Most pure MDs fail because they are not trained to be hypothesis driven, and they think like a practicing physician. These two kinds of thinkings are almost incompatible. The first three years of attending are make-or-break period. If you do not make your independent funding within this period, it is unlikely you will make yourself a physician scientist. In my specialty, majority leadership positions are held by physician scientists even though they are such a minority. They are the most sought after commodities in the country. If you get RO1s and renew them in a timely fashion, tenure is guaranteed in any medical school. Indeed, we lost several star young physician scientists in recent several years to become chairman of departments in other medical schools. It is bad for us but good for them.

Thank you all for the thoughtful and informative responses. I have learned a lot.

I am applying to med school with a master's degree in bio and quite a bit of research experience. I feel somewhat confident about my research capability without a PhD, thus not the MSTP track. Do you think everything else being equal (residency/fellowship institute, publication, rigor in the science/research, etc), funding agencies look on MD/PhDs more favorably than MDs in terms of granting funding? In other words, is there a significant bias simply because MSTPs have the extra PhD credential? Thanks.
 
A surgeon working f/t will make more than a surgeon working p/t & teaching anatomy p/t on the side. That said, by age 50+, some surgeons are ready to slow down or find a new path that is less strenuous and that can be done well into advanced age.

LizzyM I do have one more question. Do you think if for some reason my interest in teaching was ever brought up in an interview, would it be a bad thing to express my interest in teaching some day? It's a huge passion of mine as well, and among many other things its just one more fantastic thing about medicine: I can do clinical and work with patients, I can do clinical teaching, and even lecturing. I am just not sure if an Adcom would think that my heart isn't set on medicine because I love to teach as well. Sorry if its a silly question..
 
LizzyM I do have one more question. Do you think if for some reason my interest in teaching was ever brought up in an interview, would it be a bad thing to express my interest in teaching some day? It's a huge passion of mine as well, and among many other things its just one more fantastic thing about medicine: I can do clinical and work with patients, I can do clinical teaching, and even lecturing. I am just not sure if an Adcom would think that my heart isn't set on medicine because I love to teach as well. Sorry if its a silly question..

Teaching is cool. If you are willing to sacrifice income for the opportunity to teach, somewhere a Dean will kiss the ground you walk on. With incomes being pinched it is getting harder & harder to get "contributed service faculty" (those people who are attendings at the affiliated hospital but not on the med school payroll) to take time to teach physical exam skills, etc to med students. If you are willing to "pay it forward" more power to you.
 
Teaching is cool. If you are willing to sacrifice income for the opportunity to teach, somewhere a Dean will kiss the ground you walk on. With incomes being pinched it is getting harder & harder to get "contributed service faculty" (those people who are attendings at the affiliated hospital but not on the med school payroll) to take time to teach physical exam skills, etc to med students. If you are willing to "pay it forward" more power to you.

Thank you so much! This has been on my mind for awhile, and it's a relief to hear that my passion may even benefit me in the long run instead of hindering me. It's my ultimate dream to combine medicine and teaching, and if I can do that (even with a pay cut) I will be so happy. Thanks again 🙂
 
I got the following publication from AAMC via inter-library loan a while back. I'd recommend it if you're interested in an in-depth look at academic medicine. Probably a lot of detail even for medical students, but it was interesting to read through.

Handbook of Academic Medicine: How Medical Schools and Teaching Hospitals Work (2nd Edition)



https://members.aamc.org/eweb/Dynam..._prd_key=01CE1D91-F32D-418A-B9A2-E66394322A89
 
I got the following publication from AAMC via inter-library loan a while back. I'd recommend it if you're interested in an in-depth look at academic medicine. Probably a lot of detail even for medical students, but it was interesting to read through.

Resurrecting this thread... Tried taking a look at it but AAMC said I didn't have access 🙁 Glad to hear that MDs can make it in academic medicine if they put in the extra effort, that's my game plan, although as a senior in undergrad applying right now I am wondering if I will regret it. When should one start getting publications?
 
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