Path job situation

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ILikePath

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I'm a 3rd year med student and currently thinking about Path. I'm receiving different views on the path job market and was wondering how bad is it out there? or better yet, how difficult will it be to find a job in the next couple of years? I will really appreciate any comment on this subject:)

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Oops, sorry about that- it's my first time here and I had a different view open so I didn't see that thread. Thanks!
 
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ILikePath said:
I'm a 3rd year med student and currently thinking about Path. I'm receiving different views on the path job market and was wondering how bad is it out there? or better yet, how difficult will it be to find a job in the next couple of years? I will really appreciate any comment on this subject:)


If you're just a 3rd year, you're 6 or 7 years from even entering the job market. That's close to an eternity when it comes to health care and what jobs are going to be "hot". I know it's cliche, but at this point in your career, you really should just be focusing on finding the field that interests you most.
 
CameronFrye said:
If you're just a 3rd year, you're 6 or 7 years from even entering the job market. That's close to an eternity when it comes to health care and what jobs are going to be "hot". I know it's cliche, but at this point in your career, you really should just be focusing on finding the field that interests you most.


Most sane advice I have heard in a long time....
Bravo
 
ILikePath said:
I'm a 3rd year med student and currently thinking about Path. I'm receiving different views on the path job market and was wondering how bad is it out there? or better yet, how difficult will it be to find a job in the next couple of years? I will really appreciate any comment on this subject:)

From what I understand, the market is projected to be quite good for the next several years. Overall, surgpath volumes are up pretty much everywhere, although some major academic centers are seeing some decrease in volumes due to decreased surgeries. In addition, biopsy rate are projected to rise, especially GI as the baby boomers get into the hardcore colon cancer screening and PSA screening. The one big question mark remains cytology as the development of the HPV vaccine and molecular testing for high-risk HPV may obviate the need for Pap smears. However, as interventional rads gets better, there may be more of a need for interpretation of aspirates (which would be better compensated anyways).

The other side of the coin is the rate of retirement of older pathologists. This to me is a big question mark because it's so hard to predict given that most pathologists are physically able to practice into their late 60s and beyond, and there seems to be a tendency for people to believe that if they stop working, their minds become less sharp...

The general tendency is a movement away from a small group practice, as national commercial labs are taking a bigger slice of the pie gradually... academic centers will remain immune to this, but it's hard not to imagine that commercial labs will be able to undercut small groups and make those jobs harder to find. On the other hand, if you don't mind working for a commercial lab, they tend to pay pretty well, and you take on less risk as an employee.

Well, those are my thoughts! Good luck!
 
Baby boomers are getting old and getting lots of medical care.

We can all only hope the HPV vaccine does away with pap smears they are a generally not a money maker for a path group and are the one of the most likely specimens to be sued over.

Now, the one thing that is in the works now we all need to be praying does not go into effect. There is a Medicare regulation in the works that would limit the number of billable biopsies to 2 per person per day. This would be a catastrophic blow to pathology. The CAP is hard at work to make sure this does not come to pass, but if I does I am not sure what will happen to path.
 
CameronFrye said:
If you're just a 3rd year, you're 6 or 7 years from even entering the job market. That's close to an eternity when it comes to health care and what jobs are going to be "hot". I know it's cliche, but at this point in your career, you really should just be focusing on finding the field that interests you most.


I think it is safe to say GI/Cards/Rads will be as hot or even hotter than they are now. They are figuring how to do new treatments/inteventions all the time.
 
tsj said:
I think it is safe to say GI/Cards/Rads will be as hot or even hotter than they are now. They are figuring how to do new treatments/inteventions all the time.


That may be true, but there is always talk that reimbursements for imaging and colonoscopies will eventually take a cut. That's the problem with medicine. One new medicare rule can "destroy" a field. So, while I agree that those fields will probably stay hot for the near future, but what about 20-30 years from now?
 
GreatPumpkin said:
Baby boomers are getting old and getting lots of medical care.

We can all only hope the HPV vaccine does away with pap smears they are a generally not a money maker for a path group and are the one of the most likely specimens to be sued over.

Now, the one thing that is in the works now we all need to be praying does not go into effect. There is a Medicare regulation in the works that would limit the number of billable biopsies to 2 per person per day. This would be a catastrophic blow to pathology. The CAP is hard at work to make sure this does not come to pass, but if I does I am not sure what will happen to path.

From my understanding this was an oversight. If this were to take effect pathology would essentially be destroyed. But the mere fact it has brought up means there are Dark Forces plotting our destruction. I suspect there are even some academic pathologists conspiring with the dark lords.

Star%20Wars%20V%20-%20Imperiet%20sl%E5r%20igen.jpg
 
LADoc00 said:
From my understanding this was an oversight. If this were to take effect pathology would essentially be destroyed. But the mere fact it has brought up means there are Dark Forces plotting our destruction. I suspect there are even some academic pathologists conspiring with the dark lords.

Star%20Wars%20V%20-%20Imperiet%20sl%E5r%20igen.jpg

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side.

I would hope it is an oversight. This would be akin to only allowing lawyers to bill one client per day, and only bill one hour per hour worked. This would NEVER get through congress.
 
tsj said:
I think it is safe to say GI/Cards/Rads will be as hot or even hotter than they are now. They are figuring how to do new treatments/inteventions all the time.



MOLECULAR IMAGING - I think it should really be the turf of pathologists to do it, Since they are better able at interpreting molecular level differentials better than any Radiologist will ever be able to. Maybe improvements in molecular diagnostics (I do not mean the sole CP component) will be the path towards this...

We should figure out how to do new and hot diagnostics all the time.... :)
 
happyhour06 said:
From what I understand, the market is projected to be quite good for the next several years. Overall, surgpath volumes are up pretty much everywhere, although some major academic centers are seeing some decrease in volumes due to decreased surgeries. In addition, biopsy rate are projected to rise, especially GI as the baby boomers get into the hardcore colon cancer screening and PSA screening. The one big question mark remains cytology as the development of the HPV vaccine and molecular testing for high-risk HPV may obviate the need for Pap smears. However, as interventional rads gets better, there may be more of a need for interpretation of aspirates (which would be better compensated anyways).

The other side of the coin is the rate of retirement of older pathologists. This to me is a big question mark because it's so hard to predict given that most pathologists are physically able to practice into their late 60s and beyond, and there seems to be a tendency for people to believe that if they stop working, their minds become less sharp...

The general tendency is a movement away from a small group practice, as national commercial labs are taking a bigger slice of the pie gradually... academic centers will remain immune to this, but it's hard not to imagine that commercial labs will be able to undercut small groups and make those jobs harder to find. On the other hand, if you don't mind working for a commercial lab, they tend to pay pretty well, and you take on less risk as an employee.

Well, those are my thoughts! Good luck!

I wish I could be so optimistic...several things are happening at this point...
1) The job market for pathologists wishing to relocate is not as good as you might think. Some have been looking for positions for years...despite the fact they have experience and fellowships.
2) two classes of pathologists will be released and looking for jobs in the next year or so..even if they go for fellowships that is just prolonging the pain.
3) Hurricane Katrina released a mob of pathologists from TULane and other New Orleans and Missippi Hospitals that had to close or decrease staff due to Katrina damage. Those pathologists are not having fun finding a job.
4) some groups are looking for young eager and naive residents fresh out residency who are cannon fodder( ie. have no idea what they are getting into and will be let go before the promised partnership track )........
I am not telling you not to go into pathology..be very sure you LOVE it..before you go in.
 
yaah said:
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side.

I would hope it is an oversight. This would be akin to only allowing lawyers to bill one client per day, and only bill one hour per hour worked. This would NEVER get through congress.


Not sure about the analogy there, but, yeah, it better be straightened out.


The main problem is that it is always considered acceptable to take money from doctors.
 
Here is an article on the MUE thing from CAP. It sounds scary. I hope to learn if it goes through soon, so I can get out of path and get into something where I'll be able to make real cash like general peds or family med. I can't believe I didn't know about this until now. We are totally F'd. This will crush private practice and academics alike.

CAP, Pathology Groups Mobilize Against MUEs
The College, in coalition with national and state pathology societies, is pressing the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) to withdraw proposed severe limits on allowable units of service under Medicare.

The CAP and state and national pathology leaders have been conferring through conference calls in recent weeks to coordinate advocacy efforts, including a coalition letter to CMS in opposition to the units of service limitations, known as "medically unbelievable edits" (MUEs). In the series of calls, CAP President Thomas M. Sodeman, MD, worked with leaders of the Association of Directors of Anatomic and Surgical Pathology, Association of Pathology Chairs, American Pathology Foundation, the United States and Canadian Academy of Pathology and American Society for Clinical Pathology, American Society of Cytopathology, Association of Molecular Pathology and the National Association of Medical Examiners, as well as presidents of state pathology societies.

In their letter to CMS Administrator Mark McClellan, the groups will convey a unified message that the edits are grossly out of synch with standard medical practices and contradicted by abundant clinical evidence. The College is working with its scientific resource committees and coalition partners to gather clinical evidence for use in the response to the MUE proposal. The CAP also is expressing its concerns to Congress about the edits and the process CMS used to bring the MUE proposal forward.

The proposed edits, whose use will result in automatic denials of all claimed units in excess of the criteria units of service ceiling, are far-reaching: They affect the majority of pathology services and include CPT codes for all other specialties. While the proposed limit of two units for CPT 88305 (Level IV—Surgical Pathology, Gross and Microscopic Exam) has drawn the greatest concern and attention in the pathology community, the MUEs will affect all areas of pathology, including the clinical side.

The College, in a Dec. 21 letter to McClellan, characterized the MUE proposal as "seriously flawed" and called on CMS to withdraw the plan for review by providers and others. The College pointed out that the volume of affected codes—more than 1,000—demands more review time than the 60-day comment period CMS has provided. The due date for response is March 20, 2006; continue to watch STATLINE for updates on the comments process and further direction on how pathologists and others may oppose the MUE plan.

The MUE proposal also is drawing fire from the American Medical Association. In a Jan. 18 letter to McClellan, AMA Executive Vice President and Chief Executive Michael D. Maves, MD, called upon CMS to delay the proposed edits for six months, until January 2007.

"While we support reasonable steps toward error rate reduction, we have serious concerns with the July 1, 2006, [MUE] implementation deadline, as well as the manner in which the initiative has been rolled out," the AMA said, pointing out that the proposed MUEs are not the same as typical correct coding edits and should not have the same review period. "As opposed to updates for new and revised codes, a review of the entire CPT and HCPCS Level II code set for the MUE, in addition to being a much larger volume, is based on anatomic assumptions as to what is logical and, more problematic, CMS' expectations of what is medically reasonable."

Even a cursory review of the MUEs reveals a "large volume of errors that will require careful scrutiny," the AMA said. "This is particularly concerning since it was our understanding that these edits were to be set high enough that the Medicare contractors will not need modifiers to override the edits, however this appears not to be the case."

Also in the past two weeks, additional clarification was communicated to medical societies reviewing the edits. Specifically, CMS recommended that if a society disagrees with a proposed edit, it should submit clinical rationale to make its case, including medical records with patient-identifying information removed. CMS has not yet decided whether it will allow providers to appeal individual claims to their local carriers or fiscal intermediaries.
 
Molecular diagnostics: Don't sweat it. Memorial Sloan-Kettering does 1,200 a year, grand total, and still highly dicey on solid tumors, despite the gazillion $$$ that's been poured into private and public research. And the tests that DO seem to hold some validity often includes stuff like laser capture microdissection, which needs the trained eye of a pathologist.
Demographics: The population ages... Cancers abound...
Comings and goings: There was perhaps a unjustified expectation that pathologists would retire in their early 60s. Prob. not happening, but eventually the Boomer retirement WILL probably have a (positive) impact.
Pay: Medical costs WILL be under increasing pressure. Overall pay MIGHT fall, but that wouldn't hit path exclusively, but all specialities.
 
Can't provide an online link, but I've seen some slides of age distribution among pathologists, and there's a clear bulge in the "boomer" generation... Not too strange, really, as medicine expanded quite rapidly, number-wise, in the late 60s and early 70s, when oil was cheap and the good times would roll forever - or so it was thought.
 
Just today I was confronted by a resident from another field...

"Sure path is an interesting field... but you are so bright, why would you go into a field where you will be unemployed? You don't want to do residency and then not be able to get a job do you? Everybody knows pathologists graduate without jobs every year."

I was like "Oh gee, I never thought of that before. Thanks for enlightening me. I will switch to gas now and be rolling in money and chicks." :)

Seriously though, I have been told that "where there is smoke there is fire" regarding the dismal path job market. But what can I say? I gotta do what I love. Besides there doesn't have to be a million jobs out there, just one for me (no offense to everyone else ;) )
 
drPLUM said:
Just today I was confronted by a resident from another field...

"Sure path is an interesting field... but you are so bright, why would you go into a field where you will be unemployed? You don't want to do residency and then not be able to get a job do you? Everybody knows pathologists graduate without jobs every year."

I was like "Oh gee, I never thought of that before. Thanks for enlightening me. I will switch to gas now and be rolling in money and chicks." :)

Seriously though, I have been told that "where there is smoke there is fire" regarding the dismal path job market. But what can I say? I gotta do what I love. Besides there doesn't have to be a million jobs out there, just one for me (no offense to everyone else ;) )
I got the same rhetoric in the late 90's when I was a noobie med student and was considering pathology as a possible career option. It was discouraging to hear this and so I ended up discounting pathology as a field I would go in. However, by exclusion, I still ended up picking pathology.

Who knows how the job market is like these days compared to the 90's. It wasn't that long ago, so I suspect things have changed THAT much. I guess all we can do is make the best out of our decision to go into pathology and hope...
 
DermpathDO said:
I wish I could be so optimistic...several things are happening at this point...
1) The job market for pathologists wishing to relocate is not as good as you might think. Some have been looking for positions for years...despite the fact they have experience and fellowships.
2) two classes of pathologists will be released and looking for jobs in the next year or so..even if they go for fellowships that is just prolonging the pain.
3) Hurricane Katrina released a mob of pathologists from TULane and other New Orleans and Missippi Hospitals that had to close or decrease staff due to Katrina damage. Those pathologists are not having fun finding a job.
4) some groups are looking for young eager and naive residents fresh out residency who are cannon fodder( ie. have no idea what they are getting into and will be let go before the promised partnership track )........
I am not telling you not to go into pathology..be very sure you LOVE it..before you go in.

I still think the overall picture is pretty good. The problem with naive young residents not being offered partnership track positions is valid-- but you live and learn. I am only speaking of my personal experience, and neither I nor anyone that I know have had any problems finding a job.
 
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